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Sableye (BW2 Revamp)-QC 3/3, GP 2/2

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by tehy, May 15, 2013.

  1. tehy

    tehy

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    *approved by PK Gaming*

    Previous analysis here:http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/sableye/ou

    My skeleton in hide tags
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    [Overview]

    -Terrible Stats
    -Prankster+Movepool Owns. Unique combo that leaves a lot of teams, especially HO, weak without realising it until too late
    -Sweet Typing, 3 immunities and no weaknesses.
    -Can't switch into much, though. 1 resist to Poison.
    -Very little can really switch in and not have some kind of problem, and so many pokemon just can't do much to him, especially with Heal Bell support.
    -Walls and/or checks a lot of psychics and fightings. Can lure some in and destroy with Foul Play.
    -Spinblocks pretty well
    -Sableye is a semi-unique pokemon that many have trouble playing with at first;don't get discouraged, he's worth it
    -Fire-types and bulky waters check him to hell and back, plus Poison Healers. The infamous heatran strikes again. Hates rain, and sun too.
    -WOW MISSES OH GOD WHY
    -Any offensive pokemon can sweep when their checks/counters are down, but Sableye is one of the rare few that can help take these down without putting his 'sweep' in danger, since he doesn't need setup in the traditional sense. While still being a defensive pokemon/spinblocker/suicide check to stuff.

    (Is this skeleton too long?) I may have to rearrange it come writing time, too.

    name: Standard
    move 1: Will-o-Wisp
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Foul Play / Snarl / Night Shade
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    -The crux of this set, unfortunately, does not exist. All moves are equally useful.
    -Burns stuff with WoW, cripples physical attackers and wears down stallmons and special attackers alike.
    -Recover heals, which is always fun to have. Can't be worn down easily, which is awesome for both Stallwars and Hyper Offensive Offensives.
    -Taunt stops CM latias and the like, every suicide lead in the book, plus it breaks stall and defensive pokemon, letting you wear them down.
    -Foul Play smashes, in order of importance: Espeon, Starmie, Celebi, Latios, Latias, Alakazam, Gengar, Reuiniclus, Lumnite, Darmanitan, Victini, anything trying to SD on you, Gutsed Conk, Tornadus-I, any strong physical attacker, and can also 2hitko some Xatu. Also, STAB base 95 is great in most scenarios. Kills checks dead.
    -Snarl turns Sableye into a soul-shattering fiend if you can predict. Incoming stuff like Specs Keldeo in non-rain or Scarf Keldeo in rain can actually be stalled out if you Snarl him and then Snarl again as he attacks. Anything weaker struggles after a snarl. Heatran is rendered helpless! Volca can't really set up. But it's not *that* hard to get them in safely from time to time. And they'll still be alive and waiting...waiting forever... Also, you WILL get critted. It's happening.
    - Night Shade does consistent damage to stuff, especially when you're burned. Helps take down Tenta, inbounds Volca, Rotom-W. Just kind of does damage to a few of your checks. Best way to wear down bulky tran. Can break SubSD terrakion subs without making him a beast via Justified, and does decent damage to ferrothorn, skarmory, and even Scizor. (I should calc if Foul Play or Night Shade does more. I think it's Shade, though.)

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    -Max SpD is godly. Just...oh, god, yes.
    -If you disagree, the original balanced spread works. Or even max Phys.D. Balanced spread is a lot better for CBzor, CB BP doesn't 2hitko so he can't force you out any longer.
    -Spinblocks Starmie outside of rain pretty well with max spD. Same for tenta, although he's in rain a LOT. Still, burning him is super sweet. Struggles a bit with Donphan. Forry is easy peasy.
    -Heal Bell support is pwnsome. Lets you go all out. SpD celebi is great, also taking on Poison Heal Breloom/Gliscor and all those nasty Waters/special attackers. Blissey also has mad SpD and can do the same, while Sableye frustrates its fighting haters.
    -Sableye loves hazards because they're its only way to really break past Heatran, its one true counter. Plus a lot of its other checks hate hazards. . Ferrothorn appreciates a fighting stomper, and Skarmory loves having its Physical walling job easier. Heatran can take Bullet Punches and fire-type attacks/WoW's for Sableye, and also Toxic bulky waters for it. Sableye, of course, takes fighting-types, plus burns special attackers so that Heatran can be rid of them all the more quickly. Tyranitar, of course, also hates fighting-types, and can take fire-type attacks for Sableye
    -Sableye appreciates SS/Hail. Gets rid of that nasty water/fire strongth plus wears down fast fast fast. Hippo/Tar can get up SS, and Aboma gets hail. The first two get down SR, the last two love fighting-types being down in the dumps. Sable+Tar is a great combo, but they are often tasked with dealing with some of the same psychic-types, which is a bit redundant, although Tar, especially scarftar, eats some annoying-for-sable Psychics.
    -Rain lets sableye deal with Fire-types much better, sun lets him deal with water-types much better. But of course fire-types in sun eat him alive and water-types in rain do the same.
    -If you want mad damages go Toxic. Watch out for immunes;plus that kind of shrinks its niche.
    -Mean Look traps foolish pokemon sableye beats so you can 1v1 them down. You'd be surprised at how often you could trap, say, a ferro.
    -Sableye hates Tspikes. Any absorber will do. As pokemon go, sableye doesn't care too much about hazards, but a spinner is still cool. Tentacruel bonus:Absorbs tspikes and spins, but its weather preferences don't mesh that well with sableye.

    [OTHER OPTIONS]

    -Fake Out and Shadow Sneak are sweet prio but... base 75 Atk. Also, Oh God Why.
    -Confuse Ray/Swagger will piss people off. Maybe better than liepard, maybe not.
    -Prio sunny day/rain dance but Tornadus>him at this in rain and Heatran>him at this in sun.
    -Prio sub, but it's not hard to break one of his subs due to bad stats. Why bother?
    -Keen Eye is basically worthless and Prankster is godly;don't bother. If you even mention Stall...

    [CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

    -Faster Pranksters with Taunt
    -Special attackers/ Super strong banded physical attackers (Insert List Here). Special note: Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Specstoed, CBzor, Conkeldurr.
    -Any heal beller can undo his work if it's given a chance to do it.
    -Magic Bouncers,Xatu more than espeon.
    -Bulky Waters. Especially Hydration Vaporeon in rain.
    -Magic Coat in general. Also, Synchronise Mew hurts him bad.
    -Fire Type
    -Especially Heatran, he walls sh*t up. PZN heal Gliscor and Breloom also do this but can only switch in with an active orb.


    QC 0/3, GP 0/2

    [Overview]

    <p>Sableye is one of the most unique Pokemon you'll ever meet, cursed with horrible stats but blessed with an amazing ability in Prankster and a movepool that meshes with it beautifully. He also has a nifty typing, sporting three immunities while having no weaknesses. The combination of these traits leaves many teams weak to him without even knowing it, and most Pokemon can't even switch in without being either heavily damaged or crippled by a burn. Sableye might have trouble switching in, but once he does, a great deal of Pokemon simply cannot do anything to him. He also walls or checks many Psychic- and Fighting-types, and can smash many Psychic-types as they come in with Foul Play, generally scoring a 2HKO at the least, all while also acting as a useful spinblocker.</p>

    <p>And yet...not all is rubies and sapphires for Sableye. Fire- and Water-types, especially bulkier ones such as Heatran and Gastrodon, check Sableye adeptly, and Poison Heal Gliscor and Breloom can essentially neutralize him in a battle. To make matters worse, Sableye's main source of offense and defense, Will-O-Wisp, has a nasty 25% chance of missing, which can be detrimental to Sableye's health. In the end, while most Pokemon can do some damage once their checks and counters are down, Sableye is one of the few Pokemon that can actively assist in wearing down said checks and counters without being too inconvenienced or too defensive to sweep, all while being a useful defensive Pokemon, a spinblocker, and a stallbreaker.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Standard
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Foul Play / Snarl / Night Shade
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set doesn't really have a main move, as Sableye's first three moves are all equally important. Will-O-Wisp allows Sableye to cripple numerous physical attackers who would otherwise eat him alive, while giving him a way to wear down defensive Pokemon, and even annoy special attackers. Recover is reliable recovery, and allows Sableye to stick around long enough to be more than a momentary nuisance, potentially lasting forever against more defensive teams. Taunt shuts down defensive Pokemon, while preventing pretty much every form of setup known to man, specifically letting him defeat bulky boosters and physical sweepers that attempt to fight through burn with multiple boosts, and stops suicide leads in their tracks. Foul Play is a powerful STAB that makes use of the foe's Attack stat while ignoring their burn, so it deals great damage to strong physical attackers such as Darmanitan and Dragonite; it also conveniently hits a multitude of troubling special attackers super effectively, such as Espeon, Starmie, Alakazam, and many other Psychic- and Ghost-types.</p>

    <p>Snarl lets Sableye wall basically any special threat by hitting it on the switch-in, although you might need to use Snarl again on extremely strong special attackers, such as Choice Specs Thundurus-T and Keldeo with a boosting item in the rain. It also lets him deal most special attackers in a one-on-one situation more easily, gives him the ability to spinblock Tentacruel and Starmie with greater ease, and even lets him force offensive Heatran and Volcarona into a stalemate, while making them easy pickings for a teammate. However, Snarl is unable to deal with powerful physical attackers that can break Sableye even when burned, and although it lets him wall threats, it won't get rid of them, and they will be back. It also leaves Sableye unable to deal much damage and increases the number of turns that Sableye is in for, which usually results in a critical hit ruining Sableye's fun. Night Shade does consistent damage to most things, even when Sableye is burned, and lets you deal more damage to Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor, while 2HKOing offensive Volcarona after Stealth Rock and dealing heavy damage to Rotom-W. It is also Sableye's only way to deal any real damage to Heatran, his eternal bane, and it breaks the Substitute of SubSD Terrakion without giving it a Justified boost.</p>

    <p>Generally, Sableye checks or counters physical threats, notably countering Swords Dance Lucario and Toxicroak, while checking essentially every physical booster and handily dealing with OTR Reuniclus and Alakazam. Meanwhile, he shuts down most bulky boosters, such as Calm Mind Reuniclus, Cosmic Power Sigilyph, Curse Cradily, and, to a lesser extent, Calm Mind Latias. He can also reliably spinblock Forretress and defensive Donphan, as well as most Starmie and Tentacruel outside of the rain. However, offensive Donphan can get past it by hitting him on the switch with Earthquake, and Life Orb Starmie can take Sableye down with Hydro Pump in any weather but sun. Most Tentacruel and Starmie can destroy him in rain, although he can burn Tentacruel to strip it of its healing, and can still deal heavy damage to Starmie with Foul Play. The combination of Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Recover lets Sableye defeat most common stall Pokemon by burning them, Taunting them to prevent recovery or status moves, and recovering off any damage taken from their weak attacks. Eventually, they succumb to the burn, and Sableye continues on his merry way.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Because Sableye is able to deal with the majority of physical attackers via Prankster Will-O-Wisp, he has full investment in Special Defense and HP to take on special attackers better, with the last 4 EVs in Defense to take physical attacks slightly better. However, if you're looking for Sableye to survive Will-O-Wisp misses and have an easier time taking on Choice Banded physical attackers, a balanced EV spread of 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD is viable, notably letting him avoid the 2HKO from Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch. Full investment in physical defense is also a viable option. In terms of support, Sableye loves Heal Bell, as he can defeat bulky waters one-on-one with little fear of Scald burns, and no longer has to fear Toxic from defensive Pokemon as he comes in. Specially defensive Celebi can use Heal Bell, gives Sableye free switch-ins via Baton Pass or U-turn, and take on Conkeldurr, Poison Heal Breloom and Gliscor, and most special attackers, especially those with rain-boosted attacks. Blissey can do much of the same while also walling Heatran and taking sun-boosted Fire attacks, and appreciates a good Fighting-type switch-in.</p>

    <p>Entry hazards are Sableye's only real way of breaking its premier counter, defensive Heatran, so he definitely appreciates them. Ferrothorn can provide Stealth Rock and Spikes, and takes on Latios and most Water-types well. Sableye, in return, deals with Fighting-types Ferrothorn can't handle. Skarmory can also provide hazards and enjoys having physical threats burned, and is capable of doing the heavy lifting against many of them. Heatran and Tyranitar provide Stealth Rock while taking on Fire-types and strong specially offensive Dragons, and enjoy Sableye's ability to deal with most Fighting-types. Heatran in particular takes on Volcarona and lets Sableye come in on Choice -locked Fighting-type attacks with Protect, while Tyranitar's sandstorm lets Sableye wear down foes faster. Speaking of this, Sableye generally prefers to be in either sand or hail, since they wear down Pokemon more quickly. In particular, hail makes it much easier to chip away at Gliscor and Heatran, and Abomasnow appreciates how Sableye deals with Fighting-types and suicide Stealth Rock leads. Of course, Hippowdon and Tyranitar provide sand and can both lay Stealth Rock. Tyranitar has much better synergy with Sableye, and although they create a redundancy by dealing with many of the same Psychic-types, Tyranitar can permanently take care of the few Sableye can't with Pursuit.</p>

    <p>Of course, sun and rain can also be helpful to Sableye, as they weaken Water- or Fire-type attacks that would otherwise trouble him and let him enjoy Leftovers recovery (unlike hail and sandstorm). However, in sun Sableye is demolished by Fire-types, and in rain, by Water-types, and letting them have their way with him 100% of the time can be a hindrance. Toxic is an option if you crave more damage, but this shrinks Sableye's niche considerably, stripping him of the ability to stall out Steel-types and check physical threats. Mean Look allows Sableye to trap a threat that is unable to defeat him but is unaware of this or hoping to accomplish something as you burn it; possible targets include Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and most Stealth Rock leads in general. Finally, Toxic Spikes trouble Sableye considerably, as even regular poison can render him unable to stall out some threats effectively, while Toxic poison is essentially a death sentence. Although its weather preferences and Sableye's don't mesh well, Tentacruel is the best choice to absorb them, as it also takes on Water- and Fire-types for Sableye, lays its own Toxic Spikes, spins hazards, and just sponges special attacks, although any Poison-type will do, as they all share the same basic synergy of Sableye taking on Psychic-types for them. Starmie is a good choice if you feel Sableye needs Rapid Spin support, as is the aforementioned Tentacruel. Starmie takes on Fire-types and can reliably switch into and take on bulky Waters without fearing a burn or Toxic.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Shadow Sneak lets Sableye hit many threats weak to it before they can hit him, possibly KOing them if they're weakened. Prankster Confuse Ray and Swagger paired with Recover and possibly Substitute or Foul Play can induce rage and force switches, although they can also result in you accomplishing nothing. Sableye can get off a priority Rain Dance, but so can Tornadus and it can actually use the summoned rain to its advantage. Metal Burst can smash a few threats, but Sableye has such low HP that he'll need to risk death to use it, making this an inferior choice. A Calm Mind set can actually sweep or just get up to some stalling shenanigans, but always lacks a crucial move and is thus rendered mediocre at best. Sableye has priority Trick, but has trouble landing that Trick on the right Pokemon. As a final note, Keen Eye and Stall are completely worthless; do not even attempt to use them.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Any faster Prankster user with Taunt gives Sableye headaches, although he can often 2HKO Tornadus, the most common one, even without Stealth Rock. Defensive Heatran cares little for anything Sableye does except Night Shade, and can become annoying with a Flash Fire boost, while offensive Heatran is much easier to wear down, but is much more dangerous with Flash Fire active. Xatu is much rarer, but is an even greater threat, reflecting back Taunt and Will-O-Wisp, all while Roosting and attacking or using Toxic on Sableye, although some Xatu are 2HKOed by Foul Play. Espeon can also reflect back those two moves, but is easily 2HKOed by Foul Play, and generally can't hit Sableye back for much. Poison Heal Breloom and Gliscor wall Sableye once statused, although if Sableye can burn them on the switch, they can do little to him. </p>

    <p>Incredibly strong special attackers not weak to or especially resistant to Foul Play, such as Keldeo, Magnezone, Thundurus-T, and Landorus, to name a few, can destroy Sableye, and even those weak to it, such as Latios, Life Orb Starmie, and Life Orb Latias, can still cause problems for Sableye if they switch in safely. Guts Conkeldurr can take a burn and set up or attack, although Foul Play does respectable damage to it once it's burned. Strong Choice Band physical attackers can break Sableye despite the burn, and Choice Band Scizor can 2HKO Sableye with Bullet Punch if it comes in safely. Bulky Waters can take most of Sableye's hits and burn him with Scald while also dealing good damage. Particularly good examples include Hydration Vaporeon in the rain, which laughs at anything Sableye does, and Gastrodon outside of hail, which will take far too long to wear down. Fire-types generally don't mind anything Sableye can do, although Night Shade 2HKOes most Volcarona after Stealth Rock; while Darmanitan, Victini, and Chandelure take heavy damage from Foul Play. Finally, any wielder of the move Magic Coat can reflect a Will-O-Wisp or Taunt back at Sableye, and generally render him useless.</p>
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    No Snarl Mention on Sableye makes me v. sad. Sure, its not doing the most AMAZING damage, but thats not the point, when Sableye often lures in special sweepers, a snarl on the switch cripples the damage output, letting you follow up with a WoW and Recover Stall.
  3. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I don't have much experience with them, but I can't really say I rate the CM set or the Trick set that highly, especially the CM set. The Trick set could probably just go in AC of the standard set, since it is rather similar, and the CM set to OO.

    If the CM set had 5 moves I could see it working, but without Will-o-Wisp to take on physical attackers and taunt to take on opposing phazers/taunters/status users/set-up sweepers, I can't see it surviving very long. And without any attacks, Sableye ends up like Agility Deo-D, which we rejected (yes, I know it's banned now). It's just begging to be critted/hit by secondary effects and is often totally walled (although at least it blocks spin, I suppose).
  4. tehy

    tehy

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    I'd argue it's better than Deo-D, though, because it can boost one of its defenses and hurt stuff (While sort of boosting the other defense with WoW)

    Deo-D is basically unable to do one of the things that make it perfect, either lacking defense boosting, or damage. Or it lacks Recover/Agility/taunt.

    It is bait for crits/ Scalds though, i'll give you that.

    Edit: I'll take it off if everyone wants, but it's just kind of tantalizing because it has that potential to just go "doesn't matter CM" and just sweep. I'm talking about a set with WoW/Taunt/Recover/CM, not the listed one.

    As for snarl, no one said AC that I can see but sure. I may even test this out today.
  5. BKC

    BKC
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    i really don't like the cm set for the reasons jc mentioned.

    snarl doesn't deserve a mention in AC, it deserves a slash in with foul play & night shade (the former of which should be the first option). it is very legit.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    CM is OO material and Snarl is slash-worthy. However, i don't agree with slashing Night Shade first, as Foul Play deals better damage on Pokemon that usually switch into Sableye, such as Latios, Thundurus-T, Starmie, Tornadus, Xatu, Espeon, LO Gengar, and Volcarona. It also lets Sableye deal much better with Reuniclus and Alakazam, which Night Shade longer to kill and makes Sableye more prone to losing 'cause of SpD drops. The only real reason to use Night Shade is for Heatran and Keldeo, and maybe Sub Hydreigon (which is very rare), but that's it.

    So the last slot should look like this:

    Foul Play / Night Shade / Snarl
  7. tehy

    tehy

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    Actually, Night Shade is better for Volca if I recall, but basically everything else you said is my ladder experience. (Also Darmanitan, Lumnite, and Victini. And burned stuff that thinks it can SD)

    Also lets you mess up Celebi.

    Testing Snarl, but I already missed one the first battle.

    Edit: Yeah, the key is it 2hitkos after SR, whereas foul play generally does not. But otherwise you were dead on, DW.

    Also, snarl lets my SpD Sable tank a Hydro Pump from non-specs/LO keldeo, snarl it, and recover stall it.

    And arcticblast ragequit before I could see how it did against what I believe was a Specs Keldeo.

    I am using SpD sable;I find the balanced spread to be eminently pointless, sacrificing what i believe to be one of its best niches-spinblocking. Max SpD lets it tank so much more. It struggles a little bit with super-strong physical attackers, i'll admit, and has more trouble spinblocking donphan, but the benefits make up for it IMO. Like i was saying, i'm not working on this yet, just collecting feedback.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yeah, you are right Night Shade is better for Volcarona as it does more damage than Foul Play and also does not make contact, avoiding any potential burns due to Flame Body. For some reason i thought that Volcarona's Attack stat was higher.
  9. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast have one on me
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    It was Scarf, and HEY D:<

    Anyway, what happened to the specially defensive spread you were praising so much? You said the balanced EV spread was terrible, but you're still using it.
  10. tehy

    tehy

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    So I just wanted to post to ask about Trick Sableye, if anyone's got any experience with it. I'm about to use it on my stall team instead of just regular sable, but I wonder if this is the best way to use it.

    I also had a massively weird idea of Specs Gothitelle with HP ground, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, and Psychic, paired with Snarl Sableye. That basically takes out almost anything snarl sableye can't handle by hitting it on the switch-in with stuff, and might let it basically semi-sweep teams. But it's overspecific support and 2 tough special attackers can take Sableye down. (Also, or CM sableye.)

    This brings me to another point:I think snarl sableye>CM sableye. CM sableye is permanent but Snarl sableye basically accomplishes a lot of that same 'setup' while also having more utility, the ability to hurt stuff, etc.

    Finally, I want to talk about Heal Bell support, because Sableye, especially max SpD, can 1v1 bulky waters hard, but hates status.

    Edit: Yeah, i've been doing that. I also want to mention Blissey. They both appreciate the hell out of burned physical attackers and can tank special attacks. What i really want to do is test out Heal Bell+Snarl Sableye, because snarl sable basically stomps bulky waters, but as with any sableye really hates burn.

    I feel the exact same way about Trick sableye but I don't really even know how to use him. I tried the other day and I was just like... ugh, Sableye really lures in very few offensive pokemon from a competent opponent well enough to trick them consistently.
  11. BKC

    BKC
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    sdef cele tanks rotomw & scald mons while providing heal bell support.

    trick sableye is gimmicky and unreliable
  12. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Quick summery of points

    Should be how it looks. Snarl can be highier, I don't really care, but it deserves a slash so yea.

    -AC Confuse Ray in Standard Set. Personally I think its still pretty shit and wouldn't be opposed to an OO mention but whatever. So long as its not main slash I am reasonably happy.

    -Remove Trick set
    -Remove CM set

    The Calm Mind set lacks Taunt, which means anything with Toxic is going to rape you. You are also vulnerable to critical hits. Its just shit, and if you run Taunt on the set than you lack a way to deal damage which means u will eventually get critically hitted and die.

    Trick set is pretty shit. Its not bad for like, shutting down a revenge killer with an Iron Ball, but outside of that its pretty limited. You are also losing a damage move which isn't MASSIVE but still pretty annoying sometimes. Like idk, it just seems pretty gimmicky and people bring lots of things in on Sableye so its hard to cripple the mon you really want.

    I think this covered mostly everything.
  13. tehy

    tehy

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    Firstly:

    Can I get an AMEN! (Because I don't like either of these sets either.)

    To be fair, I envision the CM set without any attacks at all, just CM over the attacking move. Secondly, yeah, it's much harder to lure in your specific targets with sableye.

    Thirdly, I want Night Shade as the last option. Snarl actually deals with a lot of the stuff Night Shade does, and while Night Shade does more damage to them on the switch-in, Snarl lets Sableye wall all of that stuff.

    I prefer to just leave Confuse Ray out of it IMO. Apart from the fact that the aforementioned Snarl+WoW lets you basically stop anything on the switch, I am a huge hater of Confusion. It's just an invitation to let the RNG decide the game for you.

    edit: I'll include the EV spread in AC I suppose, but keep in mind that being 2hitko'd by something you can recover in the face in isn't that big a deal.

    As for everything I mention, yeah, that's all stuff I plan to talk about.

    Come to think of it, what exactly does the old EV spread do? It never really explains in the analysis itself.
  14. Spirit

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    I have a few suggestions. So you might want to mention sun support, with it, sableye becomes the best spin blocker in OU. Not even starmie can break past it. Also mention forretress as a partner for the aforementioned reason and maybe heatran to take fire attacks and such.

    Here's a suggested ev spread: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpD it lets you avoid the 2HKO from a burned CB tyranitar crunch, while being able to outstall LO starmie in the sun.

    Maybe mention how Snarl lets you stall alakazam and lati@s, foul play destroys non-resistant physical attackers, and night shade for volcarona and fighting-types.

    So, yeah. I'm not QC or anything so you don't have to take my suggestions seriously. I just used sableye a lot and I think these are some needed changes.
  15. Lavos Spawn

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    snarl is basically the best 4th move for sableye, instead of doing big damage to the physical attackers that are already burnt it shits on the most common switch-ins to sableye, which are all special attackers like keldeo and thundurus-t. it's really a brilliant move on sab that multiplies its longevity tenfold, and i'm surprised it doesn't see more use. i would like it slashed up as high priority as possible.

    gee who came up with snarl sableye anyways cough cough
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Lol Lavos bragging once more...

    Anyway, i am fine with Snarl getting slashed first as it is really useful.
  17. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    spread the word

    i think the set should be like this:

    drop the trick set, give it an ac mention in the support set but emphasize why it really isn't ideal.

    drop the calm mind set entirely. there is no way that in this metagame, sableye is going to get away with a calm mind sweep. sab isn't a sweeper, it's a utility prankster piece of shit meant to instill fear first, actually do something second.
  18. tehy

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    Actually, I still prefer Foul Play as a first slash, although Snarl beats a lot of the same stuff Foul Play does so I'm finding it kind of hard to justify it.

    The main reason, though, would be that Foul Play actually trashes most of the special attackers that switch in on Sableye, which really limits their ability to come in and check Sableye once again. I'm talking about any of the special attackers weak to it. Snarl is amazing because you hit them on the switch-in and boom;they can't really do much to you, but Foul Play just hits them once and they're... like, at 40-30%, which depending on your residuals is nearly dead or even unable to come in on WoW. Hit them twice and they're flat gone. It also is great to smash Espeon, since you want that dead before it burns/taunts you with your own attacks, as well as Darmanitan and Lumnite. (After SR+Foul Play, darmanitan is usually dead, and Lumnite is usually dead after another round of rocks.) And if something like Toxicroak or Lucario decided to SD again on you, Foul Play really makes them pay for it. Also, if you've WoW'd one of these special attackers on the switch, and you then Foul Play them, and had rocks up...these guys are on their last legs.

    As I recall thundurus-T takes a respectable amount from it, as does Landorus-I (Even with max SpD, you need to snarl it on the switch and snarl it again to kill it.)

    Also, snarl heavily encourages recover-stalling, and if they crit, you're really screwed. But...it's really good regardless.

    Edit: Foul play isn't even for physical attackers;it's for every psychic- and ghost- type in OU, and most of those are specially based. In fact, they're a very large portion of sableye's general switch-ins. Physical attackers is just a sweet bonus, although it's nice to be able to do something to them.

    It also lets you slam burned Conkeldurr, often even 2hitko'ing it as it bulks up. (it can't KO you back with Ice Punch even with 252/4 physical investment)
  19. Vertex

    Vertex

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    Well, basically Snarl is more useful because physical attackers are crippled by WOW, so I find Snarl the better option.
  20. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    I'm just seconding tehy here for Foul Play / Snarl. In my Sableye-using, Foul Play does smack things that come in on Sableye anyway, while still punishing things that try to set up like tehy said. Snarl is still good, but seemed far too dependent on something switching in to it in my use. I swaped frequently back and forth from Foul Play to Snarl to test, and settled on Foul Play so Sableye can actually KO things instead of just lasting a little longer via a SpA drop. Seeing Sableye KO something is equally satisfying to me and surprising to an opponent.

    I'm rambling, but in my use, which has been having Sableye on every team I've made bar a handful since it was released, Foul Play seemed overall superior, with Snarl a close second. I'm not QC and have no fancy badges, but am reporting in on my favorite.
  21. BKC

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    an enormous nerd

    for what it's worth i think foul play should be the first option but snarl should be slashed right after! i never really liked night shade
  22. tehy

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    For what it's worth so do I

    The principal greatness of Night Shade is wearing down Heatran. The bulky set has lefties and often Protect to go with it, but if you can get SR and night shades, you can kill it in a few switch-ins. (One layer of spikes, and you can doom it in two-3). It also stops Volca from switching in quite as easily and isn't **********cked by burn nearly so hard, but if you're running Heal Bell/Aroma or just avoid burn, foul play is pretty great.

    Worth noting that max SpD sableye walls basically any non-boosting specially based pokemon after a snarl, or after two (it can take a hit and snarl again.) Only exception is stuff like Specs/LO keldeo under rain, specs Chandelure or something under sun, etc. Also worth noting that the 5% miss chance can bone you, and while sableye lives with the WoW hax, at least WoW is a pretty permanent cripple+residual damage.

    Edit: Like i said, when I start really getting down to business (After I get home from my sister's graduation and have a place to POKEMON without being seen/heard) im probably removing them. in the meanwhile I figured i might as well leave them open on the off-chance that we were all wrong and they're good and someone proves it. Sounds pretty lazy I know but it doesn't cost me much anyhow (Or anyone else, for that matter. The skellies+Acs are short as hell too.)
  23. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i've only ever ran sableye on an old bw1 rain stall as my spinblocker, so i always used max hp max sdef just to handle star/tenta better. for that team in particular, snarl kicked ass. however if you guys are in favor of slashing foul play before snarl that's fine by me, as long as snarl gets the second slash (and night shade maybe a distant third).

    why do the trick/cm sets still exist? they are horrible
  24. dice

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    Yah Trick and CM bad. Remove then and put in OO.
  25. tehy

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    All right, so fair enough. When i start i'll do that.

    WIth that said, two of my big questions are left unanswered:Can Sableye run a Swagger set, Liepard style? (Of course, with my luck, turns out he can't learn it.Swear i've seen it before, though.)

    Also, what's the main spread? I have massive favor towards 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def but that's not the onsite spread and others might disagree. Let's get some discussion on this

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