Salamence is Uber.

[Human]

Those pointed stones sure taste lovely, lol. The bane of Bug/Flying, my favourite typing.

By the way, I think that the Defensive Characteristic of an Uber sucks and is really flawed. EVERY defensive pokemon can be set up on in some way, and therefore, people use the argument "play around it it". You can play around Blissey, sure. Play around Lugia? Yep, you can still do it. In fact, if Lugia was an OU (I'm not advocating this), people will simply play around it the same way Blissey is played around. Lugia walls no more physical walls than Blissey does special walls. Blissey stops NPlot Azelf, non Choice Starmie, Empoleon, Jolteon. Offensive cune. People have been playing around Blissey for so long, they forget just how many Special Sweeping sets are completely unviable due to it. Lugia would stop all +Speed Sweepers and pretty much all slow set up sweepers. It would overcentralise the metagame, just like Blissey has, and make people play around it the same way you play around it in Ubers.

In short, I find that the Defensive Characteristic is very pointless as any potential suspects are not given the treatment from this clause simply because playing around it is too easy. Apart from the so called "obvious Ubers' like Giratina and Lugia, no Pokemon has ever come close to being banned for the Defensive Characteristic. And I would imagine that if those 2 Ubers were in OU, they would more likely be banned for Offensive and Support Characteristic simply because it is harder to play around Draco Meteors and Calm Minds.

You can't be serious. Lugia is base 110 speed, 106 HP, 130 Defense, 154 SpD and has access to Roost. It can wall most of the OU tier especially seeing it has pressure which would make it weak to only Dark and Ghost attacks. It would be extremely difficult to play around Lugia especially seeing Lugia has a respectable base Attack/SpA of 90. Lugia also learns Whirlwind letting it be what would be the greatest phazer in the OU meta game.

Giratina has base 120 defenses and 150 base HP. With a great tying of Ghost Dragon it is a great threat. It even has base 100 attack stats and can phaze. It may be lacking an immediate recovery move excluding RestTalk. Even then though Giratina can be a huge threat with its bulk, it can wall the majority of the metagame that does not set up and even those it can Roar away making it very, very bulky with Rest Talk. It can easily either wall as a RestTalker or phaze, but in the OU metagame it will probably be a mixed attacker and become Ubers for the Support Characteristic. Lugia will probably become uber for the defense characteristic if it were in OU.

Both are defensively focused due to how they would be outclassed by other pokemon offensively which forces them to be more defensive.

 

[Aqueos]

Not to mention trick, and stuff like cm slowbro that says "sure paralyze me, do I care?"
6 cm later dead blissey dead team.
We should have a no bliss tourney, I wonder what would happen.
If you hate breloom, celebi says hi. You CAN NOT kill that with a breloom, short of some coocoo sd set.

 

[Misa]

Not to mention trick, and stuff like cm slowbro that says "sure paralyze me, do I care?"
6 cm later dead blissey dead team.
We should have a no bliss tourney, I wonder what would happen.

Cresselia would be a substitute for Blissey due to high HP/SpD.

 

[Aqueos]

Gengar says hi. NP mismagius says hi.

 

[un?lucky]

You can't be serious. Lugia is base 110 speed, 106 HP, 130 Defense, 154 SpD and has access to Roost. It can wall most of the OU tier especially seeing it has pressure which would make it weak to only Dark and Ghost attacks. It would be extremely difficult to play around Lugia especially seeing Lugia has a respectable base Attack/SpA of 90. Lugia also learns Whirlwind letting it be what would be the greatest phazer in the OU meta game.

Giratina has base 120 defenses and 150 base HP. With a great tying of Ghost Dragon it is a great threat. It even has base 100 attack stats and can phaze. It may be lacking an immediate recovery move excluding RestTalk. Even then though Giratina can be a huge threat with its bulk, it can wall the majority of the metagame that does not set up and even those it can Roar away making it very, very bulky with Rest Talk. It can easily either wall as a RestTalker or phaze, but in the OU metagame it will probably be a mixed attacker and become Ubers for the Support Characteristic. Lugia will probably become uber for the defense characteristic if it were in OU.

Both are defensively focused due to how they would be outclassed by other pokemon offensively which forces them to be more defensive.

I fail to see your point....Blissey has 255hp with 135 special D. A typing that is only weak to one type which is predominately physical with special fighting moves almost never being stabbed. Not to mention with a defensive spread (252/252 bold), a max attacked +nature flygon only manages to do 44% max with earthquake which can be said another way.

You need something stronger than a maxed attack +nature base 100 attack stat using a stabbed base 100 move to 2hko it.

I dont think anyone can deny that the walling ability blissey has is FAR beyond any level displayed in OU, which at least should warrent a suspect considering salamence was apparently far beyond the offensive capabilities of the current OU. It is also interesting to note most of the current OU special attackers have some way of dealing with blissey which could be argued that this is part of the reason why they are OU in the first place, and not only this, a bold blissey not only walls most special attackers but almost all physical walls too.

 

[IcyMan28]

Cresselia would be a substitute for Blissey due to high HP/SpD.

Not trying to get involved in the Blissey debate, but Cresselia has nowhere near the SpD prowess of Blissey. Blissey has almost double the HP of Cress, for example:

Timid ScarfTran Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Bold Blissey: 21.43% - 25.21%
Timid ScarfTran Fire Blast vs. 252/252 Calm Cress: 26.58% - 31.31%

May not seem like much, but that's a 5% difference when Blissey has absolutely no investment in SpD, nature or otherwise. Moreover, Cress lacks reliable recovery, so losing a third of its health is never good. Add in lack of Natural Cure, exploitable weaknesses in the form of Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse, and a Pursuit vulnerability, and you have much less reliability.

 

[AJC]

seriously blissey is really horrible in today's metagame with trick everywhere and plenty of ways to take advantage of her presence unless you know what you are doing i find bliss almost unusable.

 

[MrIndigo]

In short, I find that the Defensive Characteristic is very pointless as any potential suspects are not given the treatment from this clause simply because playing around it is too easy. Apart from the so called "obvious Ubers' like Giratina and Lugia, no Pokemon has ever come close to being banned for the Defensive Characteristic. And I would imagine that if those 2 Ubers were in OU, they would more likely be banned for Offensive and Support Characteristic simply because it is harder to play around Draco Meteors and Calm Minds.

See my post in the Uber Clauses thread. The Support Clause is basically taking up the slack of the poor description of the other clauses. The assessment of brokenness is far broader a spectrum than just the three statements in subjective terms of how things are moved to Uber.

 

[Human]

I fail to see your point....Blissey has 255hp with 135 special D. A typing that is only weak to one type which is predominately physical with special fighting moves almost never being stabbed. Not to mention with a defensive spread (252/252 bold), a max attacked +nature flygon only manages to do 44% max with earthquake which can be said another way.

You need something stronger than a maxed attack +nature base 100 attack stat using a stabbed base 100 move to 2hko it.

I dont think anyone can deny that the walling ability blissey has is FAR beyond any level displayed in OU, which at least should warrent a suspect considering salamence was apparently far beyond the offensive capabilities of the current OU. It is also interesting to note most of the current OU special attackers have some way of dealing with blissey which could be argued that this is part of the reason why they are OU in the first place, and not only this, a bold blissey not only walls most special attackers but almost all physical walls too.

The person was talking about how the defensive characteristic is pointless. He was using Lugia as an example, my post was mentioning how it does have importance.

 

[-FUCK-]

God fucking damn it I had a huge post written out explaining why Blissey is Uber by the defensive characteristic and my account logs me out because I spent too long typing it out without activity. What the fuck, well I'm too pissed to rewrite it all so I'm just going to say that yes, Blissey is Uber by the defensive characteristic, and if she isn't then I'd like to hear an actual good argument for why she isn't that doesn't amount to: "Oh becuz i can has trick and expowsion, meaning she can't wall special sweepers goodly."

 

[Shizzle]

Blissey is a bitch, but it can be beaten, rather easily by most teams too. Firstly, it gives pokemon like Bulky Taunt Gyarados an easy chance to set up, or even SubPainSplit Gengar to set up. With Toxic, Blissey gets walled to death by Steels, and with Thunder Wave, walls are free to do what they want.

Sure Blissey can wall some threats ridiculously well, however it fails against just about ANY Physical pokemon, and can be easily set up on by several sweepers.

 

[Human]

Blissey is strange, it should be Ubers following the Defensive characteristic seeing how it walls a large portion of the metagame. But it also gets slapped around by a large portion of the metagame, but that other large portion has some difficulty switching in where Blissey then uses the Support characteristic with Thunder Wave. If a pokemon falls prey two two characteristics which should normally make a pokemon Uber why isn't it?

 

[Micket]

You can't be serious. Lugia is base 110 speed, 106 HP, 130 Defense, 154 SpD and has access to Roost. It can wall most of the OU tier especially seeing it has pressure which would make it weak to only Dark and Ghost attacks. It would be extremely difficult to play around Lugia especially seeing Lugia has a respectable base Attack/SpA of 90. Lugia also learns Whirlwind letting it be what would be the greatest phazer in the OU meta game.

Giratina has base 120 defenses and 150 base HP. With a great tying of Ghost Dragon it is a great threat. It even has base 100 attack stats and can phaze. It may be lacking an immediate recovery move excluding RestTalk. Even then though Giratina can be a huge threat with its bulk, it can wall the majority of the metagame that does not set up and even those it can Roar away making it very, very bulky with Rest Talk. It can easily either wall as a RestTalker or phaze, but in the OU metagame it will probably be a mixed attacker and become Ubers for the Support Characteristic. Lugia will probably become uber for the defense characteristic if it were in OU.

Both are defensively focused due to how they would be outclassed by other pokemon offensively which forces them to be more defensive.

If you read my post, I didn't say Lugia should be a suspect, I clearly said it was an 'obvious uber' since you're right, it walls way too much. The point I am making is that EVERY wall can still be played around. Lugia's stats are way too good sure, and it would overcentralise OU.

The point I was trying to make was that if Blissey could not be deemed a suspect under the Defensive Characteristic, then no Pokemon can. The comparison with Lugia was to show that "it can be played around' is not an argument for a Pokemon to not be a suspect. All walls can be played around. If we don't make Blissey a suspect, I can't ever imagine any pokemon who will be banned as a defensive uber.

 

[shrang]

A Blissey-less metagame would certainly be interesting. Something worth noting, though, that the number of physical attackers in OU outnumber the amount of special attackers, so Blissey certainly does have an impact on the metagame.

 

[haunter]

Let's try to stay on the topic of this thread please. Don't turn this discussion into whether Blissey should be uber or not.

 

[Micket]

Haunter has stated not to turn discussion to Blissey, so I deleted my post.

 

[domeface]

Not to mention trick, and stuff like cm slowbro that says "sure paralyze me, do I care?"
6 cm later dead blissey dead team.

Slowbro: Sure Paralyze me, do I care? *Slowbro used CM*
Blissey: Good point. This'll work better. *Blissey used Toxic*
Slowbro: Oh, shit...

EDIT: shit, didn't see Haunter's post, I'll stop this now.

 

[Misa]

Since Salamence is gone, Mixmence cannot be used anymore in OU. Since Mixnite is a viable replacement for Mixmence in OU, would it be possible to use a +SpA nature instead of +Spe nature? I'm asking this because Dragonite outspeeds most of the things he needs to without using a +Spe nature anyways. Unlike Salamence (who had to run max Speed with a +Spe nature to make Speed ties with Jirachi, Flygon), There's no reason for Dragonite to run a +Spe nature since the only benefit to running a speed boosting nature is to speed tie with opposing Dragonites as well as outrunning Heatran (most Heatran are Choice Scarfed, so you're prolly not outrunning him anyways).

 

[DDRMaster]

Also, it seems most non-CS Heatran either don't run enough speed to outrun neutral Dragonite or don't run a move that can do significant damage to it.

Edit: In fact, no Dragonite set in the analysis besides the CB one even lists a +speed Nature.

 

[kokoloko]

Nah, Bulky DD Dragonite isn't that great; he hits like a schoolgirl, and he's slow as shit. Also, by having a revenge killer for DD Gyarados, you instantly have a revenge killer for Dragonite since Gyara is faster.

My latest team (which I'm going to post later this week) turns an Adamant Scarf Flygon with just enough Speed to beat +1 Jolly Gyarados (and by extension Jolly Dragonite and Adamant Kingdra).

 

[Articanus]

Three attack Dragonite is the greatest thing ever.

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Inner Focus: Adamant
252 Attack, 4 Defense, 252 Speed
Dragon Claw/ Outrage
Earthquake/ Fire Punch
Dragon Dance
Extremespeed

With no one preparing for dragons a lot anymore, I'm finding this easier and easier to set up and deal damage. Dragonite has more overall defenses than Mence, so people really underestimate it. Dragon Claw is preferred because things like Steels and priority users DO exist, but Outrage is powerful as fuck so it has its merits. Earthquake is generally better because of the large amount of Heatran, though Skarmory becomes a bitch so "pick your poison", no? Aqua Tail gets a mention for OHKOing Heatran and dealing damage to Skarmory(though still not a lot, much better than Dragon Claw/ Outrage). Extremespeed allows you to sweep whether you have a DD or not: against frail offensive teams this makes a great revenge killer in the sense that Lucario was with Extremespeed, except ~15% more powerful.

 

[greg3064]

In my experience, yeah, bulky DD Nite really doesn't cut it speed-wise. Flygon caused him loads of trouble when I used him. I'd be interested to see how much +1 Extremespeed on more offensive sets does to Flygon.

MixNite already does run +SpA, not +Spe, because, yes, he already outspeeds most walls. MixNite does pretty well and I would assume that his +SpA Draco Meteor is just as powerful as Mence's +Spe one. As far as wallbreaking is concerned, though, I've always had more success with SD Ape and MixApe than with MixNite or MixMence.

 

[Eggbert]

+1 252 Adamant Life Orb Extremespeed does 76.4% - 90% to flygon. +2 always OHKOs, but you could already outspeed. With a bit of residual damage from U-turning, flygon is KOd. This is probably better than the speed tie mence faces.

 

[min min]

Running ExtremeSpeed over Roost makes it not bulky at all. In that case, it would have no need to run a bulky EV set and have to go 4/252/252 Adamant. That just defeats the purpose of Dragonite being a bulky boosting sweeper.

 

[greg3064]

With Extremespeed we weren't talking about the bulky variant. The fact that offensive DD Nite with Extremespeed can take on ScarfGon with a little residual damage is pretty nice, and definitely gives it a major advantage over the bulkier version.

I don't see much of a point to run the bulky version now... the only real reason before was so that it wasn't outclassed by Mence. Teams have changed a bit since his banning but faster scarfers and priority users are still common enough to shut Bulky DD Nite down (and offensive Nite in some cases, as even with Extremespeed it loses to ScarfRachi etc.).