Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Nida]

Do people really switch anything on Breloom without expecting a Substitute? [...] If Breloom's coming in after Mence killed something, then... wait, why would Breloom switch in on a Salamence?

It wouldn't, unless there was no better choice. Just including for completion's sake. What I got out of the example I quoted was that, even in an improbable matchup like this, Mence's risk-vs.-reward nature puts it in danger if the player mispredicts. It's not a great example, and it's only my longwindedness that pulled so many paragraphs out of it. :P

 

[J-man]

Don't you think that Garchomp and Manaphy would've been banned in early D/P if they're considered Uber now?

Don't know what you're saying there

The other method is revenge killing, which, as I've already mentioned, isn't as effective on Salamence due to its 448 Speed after a single boost and the fact the most of the Choice Scarfers that can revenge Salamence can be taken out without much effort.

I believe i mentioned that arguing to ban a pokemon based on a setup sweeper means nothing. Any setup sweeper is powerful with a boost under it's wing and, while he may find it easier, Salamence is no exception.
Then again, you probably want Lucario, Latias, Infernape, and any other popular set up sweepers gone as well i take it.

Magnezone is one of Salamence's, if not the best, partner due to its typing and ability. Why is it ruled out? Garchomp nor Skymin were labeled as Uber because they were stand-alone powerhouses, so I don't see why Salamence can't have a single partner.

Just because Magnezone is a good partner for Salamence doesn't mean everyone will always use it. Find statistics to prove a point. Also, Just because magnezone can come in on Scizor doesn't mean Scizor can't use Superpower and destroy it. In fact, Scizor could very well be SD Scizor, maybe he had an agility attached to him from a faithful baton passer? Why don't we ban the baton passer since he helps Scizor Beat the "Uber" pokemon?

 

[Chillarmy]

I believe i mentioned that arguing to ban a pokemon based on a setup sweeper means nothing. Any setup sweeper is powerful with a boost under it's wing and, while he may find it easier, Salamence is no exception.

If you were reading any of my posts, you'd know two things right now: 1.) I wasn't talking to you and 2.) I was only adding to the fact that Salamence cannot be checked as any other sweeper in OU due to its versatility

Then again, you probably want Lucario, Latias, Infernape, and any other popular set up sweepers gone as well i take it.

All of the mentioned have reliable checks, unlike Salamence.

Just because Magnezone is a good partner for Salamence doesn't mean everyone will always use it. Find statistics to prove a point.

Wasn't Wobbufett 30th in usage? Huh? Oh? Statistics don't mean anything when determining whether or not a Pokemon is Uber? What? I can't hear you.

That's what I thought.

Also, Just because magnezone can come in on Scizor doesn't mean Scizor can't use Superpower and destroy it.

Magnezone resists 3/4 of Scizor's moveset, it's not going to be difficult to switch in. Also, it only makes it harder to switch in Scizor now that the opposition knows that it's there.

In fact, Scizor could very well be SD Scizor, maybe he had an agility attached to him from a faithful baton passer? Why don't we ban the baton passer since he helps Scizor Beat the "Uber" pokemon?

So? Salamence could have +2 Defense passed from something else. Don't bring in bullshit like that.

 

[J-man]

If you were reading any of my posts, you'd know two things right now: 1.) I wasn't talking to you and 2.) I was only adding to the fact that Salamence cannot be checked as any other sweeper in OU due to its versatility

What versatility? The common Salamence carries either outrage or draco meteor (or both if the mence user is an idiot and cares little for Mence's lifespan) They also often carry Fire Blast, which now that i think of it, is actually mandatory. The next is a filler, either EQ or Brick Break. Yeah, 5 moves, REAL versatility.

All of the mentioned have reliable checks, unlike Salamence.

Salamence has reliable Checks in Scarfgon, Scarf Latias, Regular Latias, Scizor, Starmie, Porygon2 ECT... yeah, Porygon2 is actually a huge reliable check.

Wasn't Wobbufett 30th in usage? Huh? Oh? Statistics don't mean anything when determining whether or not a Pokemon is Uber? What? I can't hear you.


That's what I thought.

Wabbufett has NOTHING to do with this. I asked if you could present statistics for how many teams carry Magnezone And Salamence together.

Magnezone resists 3/4 of Scizor's moveset, it's not going to be difficult to switch in. Also, it only makes it harder to switch in Scizor now that the opposition knows that it's there.

So? Salamence could have +2 Defense passed from something else. Don't bring in bullshit like that.

Magnezone resists 3/4 of Scizor's moveset. Once again, NOTHING can prevent the trainer from predicting the switch and KOing Magnezone with Superpower. It's also harder to switch in zone and risk the KO.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Oxymentus' point was, Wobbufett was banned by higher players who used it to it's fullest potential while lower players didn't. Resulting in low usage. Magnezone and Salamence may be used together by only higher players and have low teammate statistics but still be a deadly combo. Stats will prove nothing unless backed up by experience.

 

[Chillarmy]

What versatility? The common Salamence carries either outrage or draco meteor (or both if the mence user is an idiot and cares little for Mence's lifespan) They also often carry Fire Blast, which now that i think of it, is actually mandatory. The next is a filler, either EQ or Brick Break. Yeah, 5 moves, REAL versatility.

You're only talking about MixMence. Dragon Dance and Draco Meteor are what make Salamence a versatile Pokemon.

Salamence has reliable Checks in Scarfgon, Scarf Latias, Regular Latias, Scizor, Starmie, Porygon2 ECT... yeah, Porygon2 is actually a huge reliable check.

Porygon2, Starmie and Latias are taking a Draco Meteor to the face? MixMence and DDMence require two different sets of checks, preventing any player from reliably checking Salamence.

Wabbufett has NOTHING to do with this. I asked if you could present statistics for how many teams carry Magnezone And Salamence together.

Statistics don't mean anything when determining whether or not a Pokemon is Uber

If you're going to take the time to reply to my posts, at least read them.

Magnezone resists 3/4 of Scizor's moveset. Once again, NOTHING can prevent the trainer from predicting the switch and KOing Magnezone with Superpower. It's also harder to switch in zone and risk the KO.

Nothing's stopping Salamence from switching back in and KOing another Pokemon. Nothing's stopping Salamence from Fire Blasting on the switch to Scizor.

 

[J-man]

You're only talking about MixMence. Dragon Dance and Draco Meteor are what make Salamence a versatile Pokemon.

And once you see what Mence does, you can effectively work against it... but then again, maybe you can't. I guess it all depends on how the game is played out.

Porygon2, Starmie and Latias are taking a Draco Meteor to the face? MixMence and DDMence require two different sets of checks, preventing any player from reliably checking Salamence.

ahhhh Theorymon, how i loath thee. What if Salamence doesn't draco meteor and instead DD's? if Porygon 2 is in, your looking at a dead dragon. Even so... We're talking about checks, not counters, which is what you are talking about. Checks can't reliably switch in to what they want to kill. which means you have to sacrifice something. That's what death fodder is for.

If you're going to take the time to reply to my posts, at least read them.

I acknowledged my errors, thank you very much

Nothing's stopping Salamence from switching back in and KOing another Pokemon. Nothing's stopping Salamence from Fire Blasting on the switch to Scizor.

And nothing is stopping the check from returning... but then again, Salamence coming in TWICE? Scizor kills it cause Mence has 50% health... of course, i'll do a quick calc.

 

[Chillarmy]

And once you see what Mence does, you can effectively work against it... but then again, maybe you can't. I guess it all depends on how the game is played out.

Oh hey, let's Dialga OU because "once you know what it's doing, you can beat it".

ahhhh Theorymon, how i loath thee. What if Salamence doesn't draco meteor and instead DD's? if Porygon 2 is in, your looking at a dead dragon. Even so... We're talking about checks, not counters, which is what you are talking about. Checks can't reliably switch in to what they want to kill. which means you have to sacrifice something. That's what death fodder is for.

That isn't theorymon. Theorymon is essentially posting bullshit that's only viable on paper (Cloyster as a Garchomp check, Lapras as a Mence check, etc etc). Porygon2 can't switch into a common Salamence set safely and thus, it isn't a reliable check.

And nothing is stopping the check from returning... but then again, Salamence coming in TWICE? Scizor kills it cause Mence has 50% health... of course, i'll do a quick calc.

Again, what's stopping Salamence from picking off another Pokemon or just predicting Scizor switching back in? Prediction? lol

 

[Potential]

Disclaimer: this post will assume that revenging Salamence is irrelevant.

A point that has been brought up multiple times, but has never been properly backed up (unless I missed it), is that reliable checks to Salamence's DD set are not reliable checks to his Mix set, and vice versa. I'll see what I can do about that here.

So, let's see reliable checks to DDMence:
Swampert
Bronzong (who tends to be a bit of a dead weight more often than other Pokémon)
Porygon2
Gliscor
Scarf Starmie
Scarf Latias
Scizor (again, sort of; if Salamence has a small defensive investment, then Scizor can't OHKO even with BP and 1 LO recoil)
Lucario (kind of like a less reliable Scizor)
Suicune
Mamoswine (sort of)
Cresselia

And for MixMence (they practically all have to be Steel or risky, since Draco Meteor is so crazy strong when coupled with his 135 Atk):
Scizor (somewhat, since CB takes 49.3% - 58.3% from New MixMence and more from Classic MixMence)
Swampert (without switching into Meteor)
Sp Def Skarmory (again, sort of)
Bronzong (somewhat)
Cresselia
ScarfGon (not switching into Meteor)
Scarf Latias (again)
Scarf Starmie (again)
ScarfTran (same, but not switching into Earthquake/Brick Break)
Suicune
But none of these but Cresselia and Skarmory and Heatran can take Draco Meteor + Outrage (I think Skarmory is taken by DM + Fire Blast, while Cresselia is nearly out by the two moves and Heatran is taken by EQ). So you have to play around it.

As we can see, the only overlaps are Scarf Starmie, Scarf Latias, Cresselia, Bronzong, Swampert, Scizor and Suicune. That's 7 Pokémon in OU (actually 6, since Cresselia is UU now) who can act as "reliable checks" to Salamence. But if you look at those, Starmie, Latias, Suicune and Swampert are either destroyed or crippled by Draco Meteor, Bronzong and Cresselia tend to be dead weight (not so much Bronzong, but still), and Scizor takes ~50+% from any attack bar Dragon Dance or Roost (even Outrage, which will probably not be used first turn out anyway, does min ~33% to CB Scizor).

Make what you will of this; perhaps the point is valid, perhaps my reasoning is faulty, but at least we have some evidence for the claim, which I think is a pretty big one for the pro-test camp.

 

[skorpion123]

why is vaporeon not included at the very leasst among DDmence checks ?

 

[Game Freak201]

When looking at this thread, I think some people are getting the concept of counters and checks confused. In order to use these words effectively in an argument, we need to know their definitions.

Counter: A pokemon that can switch in on a threat safely and immediately threaten it.
Check: A pokemon that may not be able to switch into a threat safely, but still threatens the threat when it enters the field.

So, with these definitions in mind, we can assume for the most part that Salamence has no counters since nothing can switch into it safely.

It still has checks though. Latias, Scarfed Rotom-A, Starmie, Infernape, Gengar, Flygon, and Jirachi all check MixMence. Scarfed Latias, ScarfGon, Porygon2, Scarf Jirachi, and [insert fast Scarfed pokemon] can all check DDMence. Keep in mind that Salamence often runs 232 speed EVs as well. In addition, Weavile and Mamoswine check just about any Salamence set, but they see little use in OU.

 

[Flashstorm1]

why is vaporeon not included at the very leasst among DDmence checks ?

Perhaps because it needs Ice Beam to actually pose a threat to the set? Maybe because it is basically OHKOed by a +1 LO Outrage? (369 Attack +1 LO Outrage vs 448 HP / 240 Defense Vaporeon = 86.4% - 101.8%, a likely KO after Stealth Rock)

 

[skorpion123]

Perhaps because it needs Ice Beam to actually pose a threat to the set? Maybe because it is basically OHKOed by a +1 LO Outrage? (369 Attack +1 LO Outrage vs 448 HP / 240 Defense Vaporeon = 86.4% - 101.8%, a likely KO after Stealth Rock)

whether vaporeon does need Ice beam to possess a threat to mence is irrelevant.

Of course we are not talking about vaporeon sets which are not using moves that can defeat Mence ,as being used to defeat Mence.

I could have said ice beam vaporeon in particular but i think we all have the common sense to understand why that was not necessarry.


And i am not willing to further discuss the merits of that point. If you wish then you won't find me willing to comply.

Vaporeon that uses Toxic however may also be able to threaten mence (less efficiently than if it used ice beam instead) but that is beside the point.

This

it is basically OHKOed by a +1 LO Outrage

Contradicts with this

369 Attack +1 LO Outrage vs 448 HP / 240 Defense Vaporeon = 86.4% - 101.8%,

Anyways , vaporeon enters the field on LO mence with DD up and uses ice beam. Without SR up it's an unlikely OHKO for Salamence and with one i accept that vaporeon usually loses against Mence. I do agree that it is not the most reliable check against a DD mence which has already used DD.

I also agree that it is even more unreliable against a DD mence which has already used DD once and there is stealth rock in your area.

It can reliably check a Mence which does not have + 1 attack and with some luck it can also defeat a mence which has DD used.

By the way , bold max HP max defence vaporeon is guaranteed to survive a mence attacking with already boosted attack outrage.

Anyways , we should also mention the pokemon that can check DD mence which has not used a DD yet. It would be unfair to assume that everything that checks DDMence must be able to check a DDmence which has already used Dragon dance. The most reliable revenge killers , checks may indeed do that. But we will reach imprecise conclusions if we leave everything else out of the pciture.
Of course the list of things that can seriously threaten a DDmence which has yet to use DD is quite large.

Anyway , i propose a third subject more important than the category of "checks" .

"How a team can handle a Mence using a variety of pokemon , at different stages of the game" Before realizing what sets it has , and after doing so , or assuming what it carries.

Also it's important to note , the merits of gaining something from losing a Pokemon or two.


Getting into "real battle" simulation theoretics , would be a better alternative than "it 2HKOS everything therefore it's uber" Or "it's not uber because it simply can be easily handled" Or "assume that Mence has already DD up. Now assume what checks it".
Those arguments are leading us nowhere .

I say we imagine a usual OU team , and what happens when it encounters a Mence.

 

[Acritter]

Hey, the thread's developed. No more "this is just banning the top pokemon" discussion, and more advanced theory about how tough it is to take a Sala out!

I stand by my earlier assumption: Salamence isn't uber because of sheer power, but because of unpredictability. If a player guesses the Sala-type wrong, it can kill one of their Pokemon instantly. See OHKO Clause and Mew.

 

[Nida]

Getting into "real battle" simulation theoretics , would be a better alternative than "it 2HKOS everything therefore it's uber" Or "it's not uber because it simply can be easily handled" Or "assume that Mence has already DD up. Now assume what checks it".
Those arguments are leading us nowhere .

I say we imagine a usual OU team , and what happens when it encounters a Mence.

This is pretty much just theorymonning the test before we ever have the test. :/ If this is what you'd like to see developed, why not just wait for the test, since at this point I think that everyone is pretty much assuming that the test is going to happen?

On the other hand, I think there are still some unexplored specific theorymon examples out there which have value, so if you have something particular in mind, by all means share.

 

[skorpion123]

This is pretty much just theorymonning the test before we ever have the test. :/ If this is what you'd like to see developed, why not just wait for the test, since at this point I think that everyone is pretty much assuming that the test is going to happen?

On the other hand, I think there are still some unexplored specific theorymon examples out there which have value, so if you have something particular in mind, by all means share.

First of , there is no word theorymonning or Theorymon. I assume you mean Theorizing instead of theorymonning and theory instead of theorymon.

(and the mon is for Pokemon.)

Secondly , my point is that abstract arguments that don't take in mind what actually happens in battles , and how a pokemon like Salamence can or can't be handled of the type i showed are leading us nowhere , i am not denying the existence in this thread of other arguements which can lead us into actual valid conclusions.

If good arguments are called Theorizing the test before the test , then so be it. I don't see a problem at all. And i don't see how you can see a problem. Especially considering that not all of us who can post here will participate in the test process.

On the other hand, I think there are still some unexplored specific theorymon examples out there which have value, so if you have something particular in mind, by all means share.

Well for starters there is "how to handle Mence by switching" . Or "how easy is to predict correctly and switch when necessarry". Then there is , how easy is for Mence to enter and take a DD. Then there is how easy is for you to answer to that.

Or assume it's mix mence and the same.


There is a list of examples we should mention. an Abstract statistic of the type that with DD Mence has a few Pokemon that can switch in and always KO it , is an additional example but on it's own it does not lead anywhere. How predictable it is ,etc.

This is a subject where specific exampels are useless and only the combination of all those examples is what leads us into useful conclusions.

I don't really have the appetite to mention my opinion on each specific example of the whole that is needed for us to form the necessary conclusions.


So I as everyone else would most likely tell an abstract conclusion i have which on it's own doesn't tell much. My conclusion which is not sufficiently proven , is that it is a good wallbreaker , but it requires prediction to work and it is to be expected that it carries Fireblast and BB/earthquake and then the unpredictability is about whether it carries DM or not or and Outrage.

It can be stopped by prediction and it's attacks have large drawbacks. Anyway , my conclusion also fails the criteria i set before . It is not based on as complex research as necessary. As i said , i don't have the appetite to do it.

 

[noob3]

Salamence is easily revenge killed. Maybe when the ability Flash Ice or Steel Absorb is introduced i'll put more thought into countering him when I make my teams. Until GameFreak decides to make those abilities, I'll be more concered with countering Scizor. Speaking of Scizor, arn't teams these days usually so overloaded with physical defenders that Salamence is a mere pest and not really a threat at all? I've never had a problem with the Salamence.

 

[husk]

Then you aren't playing people who can play a salamence well. In the same vein as the wobb banning if skillful players can abuse it then that's a good enough reason to ban.


Most of us can agree that countering salamence is pretty much impossible. The mix set by itself can 2hko just about anything commonly seen. That's O.K. though because there are other pokemon that are similarly dangerous.

The main issue for me is that if you plan on "checking" (as you have to do with any of these sort of dangerous pokemon) Salamence with a scarfer you're already deciding to live with the fact that Salamence will at least ko one pokemon on your team (he might switch out vs your check and come back in later).

Switching around intelligently and stalling Mence out of hp through life orb recoil is challenging (though not impossible, probably the strategy I use most) but it's only viable if you're playing a Mixed-salamence set without roost. If you switch when you're facing a DDmence you will most likely be losing quite a few pokemon.

If your salamence "check" does not have a STAB priority move it has to have choice scarf and over base 100 speed. Of the 9 pokemon with over base 100 speed (in OU) Ninjask can not ohko salamence, infernape needs hp ice or stone edge, weavile has ice shard anyway, and finally none of these pokemon can take a Draco Meteor or Outrage anyway (the reason they are checks!). You can either bring them in with prediction on a predicted DD (assuming they even have DD) or just simply sacrifice a pokemon to Salamence. Not to mention the overall uselessness of these pokemon: scarf aero and scarf jolteon, anyone?

The nice part is that many players do not play salamence as carefully as they could. That really is not something that should affect whether or not mence is uber because there are experienced players who can use mence effectively and they do tear teams up with it.


As far as the magnezone and scizor thing goes even though mag resists 3/4 of scizors moves the standard set of: U-turn/Superpower/Pursuit/Bullet Punch really only has one move that magnezone could in on: Bullet Punch. Uturn obviously doesn't let mag trap scizor, superpower ohkos, and pursuit would only used in a situation where scizor is scoring a ko on a leaving poke anyway.

Of course to stop DD mence you pretty much have to bullet punch so bringing in magnezone in those instances pretty much guarantees you ko scizor.

I'd vote for Uber if there was a vote. But until then I'll keep using salamence myself.

 

[Chillarmy]

Salamence is easily revenge killed.

Rayquaza and Wobbufett are, too.

Until GameFreak decides to make those abilities, I'll be more concered with countering Scizor.

Scizor has reliable checks in this metagame due to its primary STAB (Bullet Pawnch) being resisted all over. Scizor's job is really to weaken the opposing team, or provide its own team with a sweep later on in the game when its some 8 or 9 checks are revealed and off of the field.

Speaking of Scizor, arn't teams these days usually so overloaded with physical defenders that Salamence is a mere pest and not really a threat at all?

No, most teams that want to check Infernape, Lucario, Jirachi, Metagross and Scizor tend to use Heatran, Rotom-a and/or Zapdos.

I've never had a problem with the Salamence.

Have you gotten your CRE to the point where you'll start to play intelligent players? You know, to the point where to don't see Charizard leads or shit Pokemon in general? If you have a secret method of checking Salamence that we don't know about, please do tell.

Also, what husk said

 

[J-man]

Oh hey, let's Dialga OU because "once you know what it's doing, you can beat it".

All right! Let's do it! Let's have everyone complain how Overcentralizing Dialga is because it's perfect synergy partner, Rotom-A laughs at any super effective attack aimed at it. What you fail to understand is Dialga and Salamence are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT pokemon. They don't even have the same weaknesses for pete's sake. Dialga even has a crap ton more viable movesets that Salamence usually run (of course, i could be wrong because i don't play ubers). Find a different pokemon like maybe Rayquaza, and then we'll talk.

That isn't theorymon. Theorymon is essentially posting bullshit that's only viable on paper (Cloyster as a Garchomp check, Lapras as a Mence check, etc etc). Porygon2 can't switch into a common Salamence set safely and thus, it isn't a reliable check.

Last i checked, the arguments you use to try and prove Salamence a suspect look good on paper as well.

Again, what's stopping Salamence from picking off another Pokemon or just predicting Scizor switching back in? Prediction? lol

Again, what's stopping the the opposition from outpredicting the mence user and killing mence before he gets a kill? lol.

What you fail to understand is that Pokemon isn't a game of It will happen, It's a game of Who know's what will happen? You can argue all day and night of how such and such is broken by putting in scenarios that make what is perceived to be broken very god-like and impossible to deal with, but the opposition can easily come up with counter scenarios to deal with that situation. In the end, it all comes down to how the game is played.

 

[Chillarmy]

snip about Dialga

Just saying, that whole "Knowing Salamence's moveset makes it easier to check" stuff is bullshit.

Last i checked, the arguments you use to try and prove Salamence a suspect look good on paper as well.

No, I ladder. I know more about the metagame than statistics and checks that work on paper can tell you.

Again, what's stopping the the opposition from outpredicting the mence user and killing mence before he gets a kill? lol.

From there, you're forced into a "battle of wits" the opposition. This is the worst possible situation that you will ever encounter in this game, because just about anything can happen.

How is prediction a reliable method of checking Salamence? Any skilled player can be outpredicted by any other player, so I don't get your point when you say that Salamence can be fucked over by prediction.

What you fail to understand is that Pokemon isn't a game of It will happen, It's a game of Who know's what will happen?

I've been saying that, hence why prediction isn't the best option to rid the field of Salamence.

In the end, it all comes down to how the game is played.

So, what you're saying is that if I can outplay a Rayquaza... wait, what the fuck are you talking about?

You can argue all day and night of how such and such is broken by putting in scenarios that make what is perceived to be broken very god-like and impossible to deal with, but the opposition can easily come up with counter scenarios to deal with that situation.

I never placed Salamence in an scenario, I'm just stating that it has no reliable checks based off of what's seen in the metagame.

 

[J-man]

Oxymentus, Will you get your TERMS right? We aren't talking about COUNTERS which is what you are talking about. We are talking about CHECKS which can't obviously come in on mence, who is checked by certain pokemon.

 

[Chillarmy]

Oxymentus, Will you get your TERMS right? We aren't talking about COUNTERS which is what you are talking about. We are talking about CHECKS which can't obviously come in on mence, who is checked by certain pokemon.

Where do I mention anything than "counters" Salamence? Read is half the battle, comprehension is the other half.

 

[J-man]

Where do I mention anything than "counters" Salamence? Read is half the battle, comprehension is the other half.

The way you have defined checks for us is the the smogon definition of counter. That was something Game_Freak201 posted earlier in the thread that you must have missed. This is something that has apparently passed your mind that we've said over and over again, but salamence CAN be checked by pokemon. Salamence by your definition, everyone agrees with, can not be countered. But then again, this current metagame isn't about Counters, which you have been arguing with under the guise of checks, it's about Pokemon who switch in after death to scare of that pokemon.

 

[Chillarmy]

The way you have defined checks for us is the the smogon definition of counter.

A counter is a Pokemon that can switch in all of the time and pose an immediate threat. I never made any reference to a Pokemon that can do that.

A check is a Pokemon that can switch into common sets and moves once or twice and pose a threat. For Salamence, checks are nonexistant because of its two most used movesets beating one another's checks without much trouble. DDMence for example, is brought down by Porygon2; however, MixMence blows Porygon2 away without any effort at all. gg Porygon