Not only that, but both sets are equally efficient and destructive, and are also used almost equally (50% DD, 35% Mix). Which is what differs Salamence's "unpredictability" of Gengar's ("FP+Substitute beats Blissey!").
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Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?
- Thread starter IcyMan28
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Check: A pokemon that may not be able to switch into a threat safely, but still threatens the threat when it enters the field.
"Common moves" and "once or twice" are close enough in meaning to "may not be able to switch in". Obviously a check isn't going to switch in safely all of the time, and I made that noticeable.
Once more, Porygon2 is not a reliable check to Salamence because of MixMence, same goes for any retarded Scarfer or revenge killer. Stay on that for Christ's sake =/
NOTHING can safely switch in all the time. Crithax, parahax, or freezehax can show up at any point in time. The question is the likelihood of a death on switching in, which would render the check completely useless. For obvious reasons, better players can abuse this percent more, by predicting switch-ins accurately. The question is, what is the likelihood of each individual check getting killed by the Salamence it is supposed to switch into, and how high a chance does it take to make Salamence a suspect?
No shit, I've been saying that for a good few pages.
I've been ranting about that; you can't calculate the likelihood of Salamence beating one of its checks on the switch in and use that when determining whether of not Salamence can be considered a suspect. Of course, I could say that Weavile has a 25% chance to switch into DDMence and scare it away, but then you'd have to take the experience of both players into account and assume that Salamence is going either to attack first in order to test the waters and Dragon Dance on the switch. Beating Salamence with a check is strictly reliant on predicting its next move, which, as I've been saying for some two weeks, is an unreliable move to make in this game. You'll also have to keep in mind that a STAB Draco Meteor coming off of a base 110 Special Attack hits just about everything pretty hard, limiting your options to extremely Specially Bulky Pokemon and some Steel types with "odd" defensive investment.
Scarf Jirachi will at worst speed tie with +speed Salamence after a DD (and will outrun any Salamence that aren't +speed with 252 evs), and will always OHKO with Ice Punch.
even with no SpAtk EVs, Swampert can OHKO a full-health Salamence with Ice Beam a majority of the time. 252 HP/0 SpDef Swampert will always survive a LO Draco Meteor, even after SR damage, even if Salamence is +SpAtk. max HP/Def Swampert is guaranteed to survive a +Atk, +1 Salamence LO Outrage if SR is not on the field, and can survive 79.49% of the time if SR is there (100% if Salamence is not +Atk).
it's not hard to beat Salamence, but you should carry a pokemon that can directly deal with it and additional pokemon that can survive one hit of its attacks.
even with no SpAtk EVs, Swampert can OHKO a full-health Salamence with Ice Beam a majority of the time. 252 HP/0 SpDef Swampert will always survive a LO Draco Meteor, even after SR damage, even if Salamence is +SpAtk. max HP/Def Swampert is guaranteed to survive a +Atk, +1 Salamence LO Outrage if SR is not on the field, and can survive 79.49% of the time if SR is there (100% if Salamence is not +Atk).
it's not hard to beat Salamence, but you should carry a pokemon that can directly deal with it and additional pokemon that can survive one hit of its attacks.
^^^ Agreed.
I play Salamence extensively (I'm assuming most people posting do to some extent), and its learning curve isn't quite as easy as you would think. Spamming Draco Meteor is better on paper than it is in practice, especially with the fact that no one leads with Salamence and Stealth Rock is usually on the field early. ONE single misprediction will often cause Salamence to lose 25% of its health. You Flamethrower the Skarmory only to find Latias switching in. You switch out. You Draco Meteor the Skarmory next time, and it stays in.. guess wat.. your switching out again or being stalled the fuck out. You are at 75% health and find the opportunity to Dragon Dance only to be met immediately with a CB Scizor... your forced to switch out.. or be left with 10% health.
Now, I'm not for a second suggesting that Salamence is easy to counter, or that it isn't insanely easy to go around wrecking teams with PROPER prediction. However, I find it no where near easy to "sweep a large portion of this STEEL based metagame with little effort." And the set everyone bitches about, Dragon Dance.. having used it.. you Dragon Dance and Spam Outrage for one kill then just die cause of all the bullshit running around thats going to stop you... how the hell is that sweeping a metagame?
And that one kill argument is a crock of shit to me... because anything with Explosion will get you a kill in this game unless your not blatantly obvious about it (like switching your Scarfed-Ass Heatran into a Blissey...). And that one kill will open up a sweep for other pokemon. So by everyone's logic, the move Explosion or any pokemon that learns Explosion should be uber according to the Support Characteristic.
I play Salamence extensively (I'm assuming most people posting do to some extent), and its learning curve isn't quite as easy as you would think. Spamming Draco Meteor is better on paper than it is in practice, especially with the fact that no one leads with Salamence and Stealth Rock is usually on the field early. ONE single misprediction will often cause Salamence to lose 25% of its health. You Flamethrower the Skarmory only to find Latias switching in. You switch out. You Draco Meteor the Skarmory next time, and it stays in.. guess wat.. your switching out again or being stalled the fuck out. You are at 75% health and find the opportunity to Dragon Dance only to be met immediately with a CB Scizor... your forced to switch out.. or be left with 10% health.
Now, I'm not for a second suggesting that Salamence is easy to counter, or that it isn't insanely easy to go around wrecking teams with PROPER prediction. However, I find it no where near easy to "sweep a large portion of this STEEL based metagame with little effort." And the set everyone bitches about, Dragon Dance.. having used it.. you Dragon Dance and Spam Outrage for one kill then just die cause of all the bullshit running around thats going to stop you... how the hell is that sweeping a metagame?
And that one kill argument is a crock of shit to me... because anything with Explosion will get you a kill in this game unless your not blatantly obvious about it (like switching your Scarfed-Ass Heatran into a Blissey...). And that one kill will open up a sweep for other pokemon. So by everyone's logic, the move Explosion or any pokemon that learns Explosion should be uber according to the Support Characteristic.
I don't think Salamence is broken offensively. The fact that most teams run early SR and a Scizor immediately mean that it can't really switch in all that frequently in most matches. Add in LO damage and he really won't be hanging around for more than 2 switches at best. Carrying a revenge killer and getting SR down early should pretty much ensure that Salamence won't get more than one kill. The fact there aren't any dedicated counters to it and that it can easily be checked by a lot of useful pokemon means it is not centralizing the metagame at all.
Salamence is a huge threat in OU, but not broken. Yachechomp was much more of a problem back in the day.
Salamence is a huge threat in OU, but not broken. Yachechomp was much more of a problem back in the day.
I like Weavile too and all, but you cannot just switch a Weavile into a Salamence. If SR is on the field (likely), you walk out at 75% and die to anything it hits with. This also nullifies a sash, if for some insane reason you're using one of those on your Weavile. The strategy only works if you can predict the DD, which is unreliable and unsafe to do on the first turn you see the Salamence. (As many have already said)noob3 said:
snorlaxative said:
Scarf Jirachi has a 73.75% chance of being OHKO'd by Fire Blast on the New MixMence set after SR damage. It has a 87.95% chance of being OHKO'd by Fire Blast on the Classic MixMence set after SR damage. Choice Scarf Jirachi deals 55.6-66.5% damage without Intimidate with Ice Punch to New MixMence and 50.4-60.4% to Classic MixMence. Neither are a OHKO after SR, and only New MixMence has an 86% chance to die after one Life Orb tick and that Ice Punch.
You might not care about the numbers, but it says to me that if Jirachi switches into Fire Blast, it's easily 2HKO'd and cannot return the kill unless it gets lucky and the Mence isn't particularly bulky on the physical side. (And that you didn't switch into the Intimidate, which pretty much screws Jirachi) This all isn't even considering the possibility of a +1 Earthquake on the DD Set, which is a guaranteed OHKO on Jirachi. (With again, Jirachi dealing at best 60% with Ice Punch)
It's probably one's "best" switch-in, but it's still not really safe.
I have used Swampert like this before, but since Swampert is oftentimes a lead (#3 most common lead), he takes a bit too much initial damage to return fire a OHKO on Salamence later on in the game. Otherwise, if he's healthy enough, he usually takes out the Mence or forces it to switch, racking up another 25% SR damage when it comes back.snorlaxative said:
Not that I have anything against you, but locking yourself into Outrage before you've properly scouted the enemy's team is asking to be revenge killed by something faster. Besides, many, many Mence carry Fire Blast even on the DD set, which scares off Scizor and Steel switch-ins.RaikouLover said:
It's a risky game predicting what a Mence will do the first turn it's out, and one messup can (and many times will) cost you either the game or a Pokemon or two.
@Rising Dusk: Could you elaborate on how you got those calcs? I used the on-site calculator and the physical choice Jirachi set OHKOs both Salamence with no Intimidate reagrdless of whether or not rocks are up. If Jirachi is Intimidated, New Mixmence is still OHKO'd after rocks unless it rolls absolute minimum damage (74.9% - 88.2%) and Classic Mixmence is dealt 66.5% - 78.5%, and it will either die to Sandstorm or after attacking once with Life Orb.
I used the on-site one too. Strange, maybe I misclicked. Let me try again. I must have had reflect active or something. I could've sworn I refreshed, though.. Hrm. Oh well, ignore what I said, I'll edit it out.
Seriously, this is what I've been saying >.>
Scizor and revenge Wobbufett just as it can revenge Salamence and since you want to mention Weavile... yeah, fuck Rayquaza. I'd totally trade a power hitter on my team to get rid of Salamence, that's a great idea. You're smart, really smart.
Any Pokemon, UU, OU or NU, can be revenge killed if you sacrifice a member of your team. It's just that with Salamence, you have to accept the fact that it's going to OHKO something that may have been useful later in the game in order to lure it into trapping itself.
Don't be so obtuse.
"Spamming Draco Meteor" isn't the best option to use lol. It's rare that I see a player with at least a bit of common sense use Draco Meteor first; however, it does dent a decent amount of the metagame and, more than often, Draco Meteor is going to hit something for a decent chunk of damage. Then you have to worry about Mence's other 3 slots >_____>
One single misprediction will cost you a member of your team.
Again, mispredictions are possible for both sides. Salamence just forces the opposing side to use prediction.
Not every team is going to carry 3 Steel types to beat Salamence with. Not every Salamence is going to be DDMence.
You sure you've been using it well? Again, the opposing side has to accept the fact that Salamence is going kill one of their team players and sacrifice it in order to lure Salamence into an Outrage. Is there any reason that we should have to accept that fact? What about the 60% that the Steel type switch in is going to take? Scizor nor Bronzong can guarantree an OHKO after SR damage and a round of Life Orb recoil (30% chance of OHKOing). Lucario doesn't require a sacrifice to beat. Infernape doesn't require that you scrap one of your walls to overcome it. What about Gyarados? And Kingdra? Those Pokemon can only sweep unprepared teams early in the game.
Bullshit. Ghost types, Steel types and any Defensively bulky Pokemon can take an Explosion. If a team is not prepared to take Explosion, then it's the player's own fault. Salamence requires that you sacrifice something to even have a chance of killing it; there's nothing that can take a +1 Outrage or Earthquake, a LO boosted Fire Blast, Draco Meteor or Earthquake/Brick Break well to the point that it can keep Salamence in check.
But what can switch in safely on Salamence?
Salamence only needs one switch in to dent your team. By the time it switches in the second time, all of its potential threats will be gone and it'll be free to demolish to remaining Pokemon on your team.
Carrying a revenge killer to Rayquaza (sorry for bringing this up again, but Rayqauaza boasts a decent amount of similarities to Salamence) and layer of Stealth Rock ensures that it won't get more than one kill - anything topping a base 90 Speed holding a Choice Scarf can revenge Rayquaza without much trouble =D. Are you saying that revenge killers and entry hazards make a Pokemon less broken than it's made out to be?
Don't give me that.
ScarfMie, ScarfRachi, ScarfGon... um, anything else? Weavile is shut down by Stealth Rock and any set that Scizor, Metagross, Swampert and Skarmory can run and Cresselia is lol in OU. All we have left are unconventional Scarfers >_>. Nothing can really check MixMence without prediction.
Okay, let's not ring YacheChomp up. Ever. Again.
Garchomp itself was a problem, not a single set. Choice sets could be easily bluffed by using any attack that's not considered impractical. Sand Veil also contributed to Garchomp being considered broken because it turned any means of checking it into a 20% chance of being trashed by it.
I usually launch DM right off the bat, but then, that's to sneer at the switch-in. You later mentioned the Dragon Dance set, but the Mixed Dancer seems far superior (at least to me). It blows a hole in Foe One with DM, and if the opponent swicthes, DD followed by EQ or Outrage puts a hole in another. It's not foolproof, however. Scizor, Porygon2 switch-in (with prediction), Ice Shard, etc. can put an early end to Mence, and with Scizor as high in use, a "significant portion" of teams can beat Mence "in normal conditions," and that doesn't count other teams (Ice Shard, etc.). If Scizor ever becomes Uber (I doubt it), then mence will likely become such, too. However, until Mence is gaining two guaranteed KO's, barring a sacrifice or a misclick, etc., Mence is just OU's strongest dragon.
You aren't the some... 600 or so accounts on Shoddy that use Mence.
I wanted to mention Mixed DD, but the Bronzong, Skarmory and Scizor are common switch ins to Mence. Without Earthquake, Heatran and Metagross are free to run over Salamence =/. It really came down to "which slots matter the most?". In all honesty, I'd rather use the standard Dancer and scout the opposing team for stuff that can take a +1 Outrage, Earthquake or a Life Orb Fire Blast.
"Prediction"... I could've sworn that I've already explained how it's not a reliable option to depend on. Ice Shard users, well Weavile and Mamoswine, can be easily scouted out after the first Dragon Dance and then taken out by something along the lines of Scizor.
Rather than state why Scizor cannot be the reason why Mence remains OU, I'll just quote myself like a petty asscunt:
Oxymentus said:
Mence is always guaranteed a KO on just about any bulky Pokemon. I don't see why that alone doesn't make it a suspect =/
If Salamence would prove to be suspect (or if one would argue this) based on it's pairing with Magnezone as a partner in crime, then it would be the combination of Salamence and Magnezone that would be put under suspicision, not Salamence alone. Unless one could prove that either Salamence or Magnezone themselves were suspect without the assistance of the other of course, in which case this entire point you've made is meaningless in this discussion.
So... bring two pokes for one threat? Thats not restricting at all.
If you can prove that without using the words, (mis)prediction, (mis)predicting, (mis)predict or (mis)predicted, then I'll back off.
Wobbufett didn't trap things and Tickle them into submission without another Pokemon. Garchomp wasn't a stand-alone sweeper. Shaymin-S never went into battle without any type of support. Why is Salamence excluded from having a partner?
And they can switch in on Mence without being KOed? Can they outspeed +1 Salamence? I don't see how "a Pokemon with a move that can beat Salamence" qualifies as a check.
To be fair, countering anything with multiple sets that cover each other requires a certain amount of guesswork. It's just that with Salamence, it requires the absolute maximum amount of guesswork where messing up can cost you a Pokemon/the game. That's part of what makes me favor giving it a suspect test.Oxymentus said:
Oxymentus brings up a good point here - almost every Pokemon needs some sort of support to succeed, even Rayquaza, Latios, and Mewtwo. The only pokemon who are truly stand alone sweepers are Kyogre and Groudon, and even they aren't going to be taking OU by themselves.
So the real question here is - is sticking Magnezone on your team "too much" support for Salamence?
The Uber characteristic states "with little effort". I believe that trapping Steels with Magnezone is quite easy actually. It's pretty obvious when Scizor's going to U-turn and when he's going to Bullet Punch. Wham, dead Scizor. That was easy, wasn't it?
So is that "too much support"?
I'd argue that Salamence is not uber simply because of a lack of defensive presence. Salamence is a very momentum-based pokemon. It relies on getting easy switch-ins and forcing the opponent out. However, against many standard teams, it simply doesn't get the chance to switch in. Or, once it switches in, it cannot threaten an OHKO without being maimed in the process. Consider a standard team with lead azelf, ttar, latias, scizor, infernape, jolteon. When does salamence switch in? Lots of OU pokemon are designed to prevent Salamence from switching in, or at the very least limit it to one switch-in before succumbing to SR, LO recoil, sandstorm, and whatever hits it took on the switch-in.
So, for something to be offensively uber, it needs to have both offensive strength and ease of entry, in addition to few checks, etc.
So, for something to be offensively uber, it needs to have both offensive strength and ease of entry, in addition to few checks, etc.
What can switch in safely on heracross? From what I hear he is borderline UU these days. Not a relevant point of discussion.
Overstating both it's longetivity and I don't know how all it's threats necessarily disappear.
Without physical walls, physical sweepers run rampant. Without special walls, special sweepersw run rampant. Without revenge killers, Gyarados/Salamence/Rayquaza and co. run rampant. Of course "counters" make a pokemon out to be weaker.
Garchomp was mangeable until Yachechomp became prevalent. Not going to bother explaining any further, but let me put it this way. When I see Salamence, I am concerned. When I saw a Garchomp get a free switch-in, I was much more concerned.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Gliscor. And Hera is still OU, so no theorymoning, thanks.
This is true, a good player will try to keep his\her Salamence check alive until they manage to get rid of Mence. But that doesn't prevent Mence from taking 1-2 Pokemon out of your team, or severely weaken them by spamming its ridiculously powerful moves at every switch in (having SR on the field is a godsend).
Yeah, obviously, but Salamence can cripple both physical and special walls, so you necessarily need to resort to revenge killing.
Garchomp has never been manageable in my opinion, people just used to get resigned to lose 1-2 Pokemon to it before taking it out (and praying for no sand veil hax), it has been stated multiple times in this thread that Chomp was way harder to handle than Mence is, so please don't bring back this argument.
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