The Offensive Characteristic is through most of a team, if not all. So what if it gets one KO? I switch Scizor in then and revenge it, when a KO is possible. In any case, that sort of is the definition of a check: it can switch in some of the time and force out the opponent, or it can force it out by threat of a revenge KO. As for Scizor: he can do heavy damage to almost any team if played half-decently, so including a Salamence check that can swich around a little is not a blow to the team. Anyway, isn't leftovers not very common on Salamence? So woudn't those sets be mostly irrelevant? Thus, Scizor can revenge it easily or take a bite out of the next Pokemon, and another by forcing Mence to switch. Bullet Punch bypassed DD, so with LO + Sandstorm + SR, Mence is guaranteed to have a MAXIMUM of two KOs if it stays in. Add to that switching around, and Mence may get up to three with hard work. So what if Mence can sweep most of a team if played right? If it takes a lot of effort, which it would seem to, then I could say Gyarados or Lucario or Tyranitar are in the same boat, having used all of them to destroy at least half a team on occasion.Rising Dusk said:
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, Salamence has 3 other moves besides Fire Blast.Aura Guardian said:
No, it is not "sort of" the definition of a check. Someone in this thread already defined it perfectly, it needs to be able to switch in no matter what the Pokemon does, threaten it, and force it to die or flee. That is a check. SDLuke's check is a Gliscor, Rotom-h is a check for CBScizor, etc.Aura Guardian said:
Anyone can play anything like an idiot. I can play Rayquaza so shittily that it wouldn't even be useful in OU. Does that make it less of a threat or less of an uber? No.Aura Guardian said:
Yeah, exactly, the fact that both sets are equally destructive and roughly equally played plays a big part in it.TSPhoenix said:
I'll edit in some more responses, but that is a COUNTER not a check. Counters are able to always switch in, then do that. Checks, as already defined, are ones that sometimes can switch in and then stop a sweep.
If you say so. The words are used so interchangeably across the boards by everyone (Including mods and people with high CREs) that distinguishing them is difficult, if at all possible. If you want to play at that definition, however, then I rescind my former comment on your behalf. I'm not here to fight you, just make you think twice about your beliefs of Salamence.Aura Guardian said:
It's very funny that you link to that thread, as it explains pretty clearly (even in the first post) exactly what I and others have been saying. Look at those damage outputs on the DD set. Look at how the MixMence set breaks things apart and fits into the Support Characteristic. It's versatility along with its monstrous power clearly demonstrates that it can, with little effort (Yes, little effort), decimate teams.Aura Guardian said:
I think this is a good point to make. As an avid Salamence user, the hardest part is getting it in past Stealth Rock and any opposing attacks, which will easily put you in under half health if you have the misfortune of having to switch in to an attack. Rather than those niche situations you mentioned, I think many standard battle conditions make it somewhat difficult to get a clean switch ins for Salamence.
Lure ground attacks with something that is weak to them (A lot of things) and you get a free switch in. If you're worried about SR, use a lead that will hopefully beat the enemy's lead; Aerodactyl, Scarfachi, and Azelf are all good options.Aura Guardian said:
But having to lure out Ground attacks is a form of support that Salamence often needs to sweep. If you're using Pokemon that lure out Ground attacks so Salamence can sweep, that is a form of team support that is needed to sweep with Salamence. That Salamence so often needs this team support to be able to sweep takes away from the argument that Salamence can sweep through teams with little effort. What we should be doing is not proving that Salamence can sweep, which we've already established, but figuring out whether or not it needs little support to sweep.
Errr. You do realize that it revolves around having safe switch-ins, not that your team has to lure them. Besides, if you're using a non-flying/levitating electric, rock, poison, steel, or fire Pokemon on you're team, you will carry a ground weakness. Most teams do, whether they plan on having Mence on them or not. Ground is a very common attacking type, so it's a handy immunity that gets many chances to be used. That doesn't constitute "a lot" of support at all.Staraptor Call said:
Most players will bait those attacks. For instance, people don't not use electric attacks against Gyarados because they might have an Electivire in reserves. They still go for the gusto and try to bring it down. (At worst, it makes it take more SR damage) It's very reliable to lure attacks, especially when the enemy has no idea what's on your team. (AKA you haven't revealed Mence)Aura Guardian said:
Again, not quite. People will use an ice/dragon attack against Mence whether they know he's being "forced out" or not. The chance he stays in and decimates your one counter when you try to out-predict the enemy is too great to risk.Aura Guardian said:
Ugh, stop bringing up Garchomp. He was a totally different story. Even then, people still lured electric attacks so he could get free switch-ins.Aura Guardian said:
If Salamence walks in at some point in the game, let's say with SR down, and he Fire Blasts your oncoming Scizor. Now you send out a revenge killer. He switches out, forces your revenge killer to escape. (That is support characteristic, since by eliminating scizor with virtually no cost to himself he has facilitated the rest of the team) He can then come in later when your revenge killer isn't out and do it again. Even with SR in play, he can do this at little real cost to the team and just shred things. That's just one example of how it can play out, and guess what? Salamence punches really big holes in your team with little support.Aura Guardian said:
Exactly.Aquamentus said:
More SR damage is hardly a problem if when he comes back in he kills another Pokemon.Aura Guardian said:
No way, the last thing Salamence needs with his LO and SR issues is his own team chipping off 6% more a turn. It may appear effective simply because it's two power houses beating away at the enemy team, but you're not using Mence properly if you throw him next to a TTar. Scizor can CBPursuit just as well, anyways.Aura Guardian said:
I almost agree with that idea, but I doubt it'll happen.Aura Guardian said:
I would also like to say that pokemon only become suspects if enough users have good reason for that pokemon being Uber; not if that pokemon is just powerful or we just feel like testing it. That is why we're having these "ridiculous debates" for. To convince users that Salamence is breaks one of the clauses and deserves a test.bearsfan092 said:
The reason that people keep bringing up Garchomp is that it was a self-sustaining sweeper during the DP era. I think that a pokemon is only broken by the offensive clause if it is indeed a self-sustaining sweeper. So far, I have only seen damage calcs and claims that Salamence can sweep with Magnezone/other pokemon. Any pokemon with a boost can 1/2HKO most of the OU metagame and using pokemon to help with a sweep whether it is to remove threats or to just lure an attack is hardly what I call a self-sustaining sweeper.Rising Dusk said:
What things does he cover? The opponent's team has to lose all their DDMence checks for a sweep to happen and the longevity of New MixMence makes it only kill off one pokemon at best. How exactly does one just slap Salamence on a team and have it suddenly become successful?Rising Dusk said:
This is true, but the crux of the debate hinges on the vaguery of "good reason" and various terms within the Uber clauses.
Except it wasn't. Garchomp always had support of some kind or another; indeed, nothing has been truly standalone since DP and before.
Garchomp was a huge Sand Veil abuser, and that certainly isn't something it set up on its own. Between the SV evasion granted by combos with TTar/Hippowdon, the SR resistance, Yache Berry to tank an ice attack and kill their check/counter/etc, he was devastating with proper support. He was also his own ordeal, and is completely irrelevant to the discussion about Salamence.Game Freak201 said:
You don't seem to understand that talking in extremes doesn't help. Many of the Ubers are obviously Uber. They are so powerful that they can sweep entire OU teams. However, it is not always so obvious. There is a point when a Pokemon is very good (Scizor) and totally fair in OU and a point where it's possibly just a little too good for OU.Game Freak201 said:
People oftentimes forget that Intimidate makes him slightly bulkier on the switch in to physical hits. Earthquake is a very common move as well and a free switch in. Furthermore, he doesn't have to sweep using the DDMence set. He can come in, kill one or two things with impunity because you can't properly predict what he will do, and have satisfied the support characteristic for the Uber environment.Game Freak201 said:
I did not say that you just put a Salamence on your team and you would automatically be successful; don't put words into my mouth. I said that you can fit a Salamence into most decent teams and it will do great, a la complement it rather well. He barely needs any support that isn't already common enough on most teams, so he fits nicely into them.Game Freak201 said:
