I would like to point out that the whole point of the theory/theorymon/hypothesis is to test it on the suspect test. We then see the conclusion of the suspect test and compare it with the theory/theorymon/hypothesis so the people that qualified to vote can vote whether it became true or not.
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Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?
- Thread starter IcyMan28
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I'm sorry, but I just hate examples like these. There are other Pokemon that can come in and use one of four moves of great power to KO an incoming Pokemon which you thought was a good check, and they reside in top OU. Gengar and Infernape are two I'm thinking about, but I'm sure SuperRachi will fit there as well.
And yes you can cite Mew for that but only because it has 100 Base Stats across the board and can use any combination of like 500 moves with that great power. You can't cite something that's completely different than it. Salamence isn't using any of 500 moves or whatever, but rather any out of 5. Fire Blast, Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Outrage, Draco Meteor are the common moves Salamence uses. There aren't at least 100 others that it can use to great success like Mew could. Infernape and Gengar basically have the same unpredictability that Salamence has.
To delve into your example though. Earthquake doesn't faint the following Pokemon: Donphan, Mamoswine, Abomasnow, or Scizor. It has a chance to OHKO Metagross. So that's a few that can get in safely and take out Salamence on the EQ.
Next you say that you can sacrifice the current Pokemon to revenge kill it. And what is wrong with that? You can also sacrifice another Pokemon if you want, you've got at least 1 other to choose from if you're going to revenge kill it. It's a tactic in Pokemon when you exchange a Pokemon to take another Pokemon. Why you and others choose to ignore it I don't know.
You say if they have scouted your check, you're in trouble. If a Lucario user has scouted your check/counter you're probably in trouble too. They just take it out and then they can set up and go to town. If they faint your check you're probably fucked. Your point is valid though, if the Salamence user provides support to take out the opponents check(s) then it can set up and sweep. But hey, that's what you do for other sweepers too.
And yeah, Salamence can just switch out but coming back in, assuming the common battle conditions of SR and SS, it's already lost 62% of it's HP and now for sure it's in priority range and can be more easily dealt with. Assuming they dealt with your check, they provided team support that you would provide for any other sweeper.
Again, I'll repeat myself.
There is no characteristic that defines a Pokemon Uber based on movepool variety.
Mew is not Uber because of the moves that it can learn, but because of what it can do with those moves that other Pokemon cannot.
Even though Mew has an amazing movepool, Smeargle trounces it. Yet Smeargle is barely OU. Why is that? It's because the movepool alone does not matter. Unlike Smeargle, Mew has the base stats to support what the movepool can do.
Please pick and choose your arguments more carefully.
I would like to point out here that Brick Break is viable and Roost is also not too uncommon on Salamence. EDIT: Let's try to keep all the relevant information in mind, not just most of it, please.
I think Salamence got enough problems for it coming for him, he isn't over centralizing. The one main difference that I see with him, is unlike Garchomp, he is weak to SR, which makes switching in that more harder.
Another thing is his speed, 100 base speed these days, imo, is below average and is easily outsped by a lot of shit.
You can't just keep banning things just because they became stronger, there is a bottom line that must be established.
Another thing is his speed, 100 base speed these days, imo, is below average and is easily outsped by a lot of shit.
You can't just keep banning things just because they became stronger, there is a bottom line that must be established.
@Testing/Not Testing/Urgency-- You know guys, it is always possible to, you know, NOT be testing something? It's not like the game is this inherently flawed problem that has to be fixed. Not testing something gives the game this thing called STABILITY and another called DEFINED RULES that people tend to like in games . . .
Probably the most obnoxious thing about all this testing, is that if you play the game seriously is that you are almost forcefully compelled to participate in the tests because if you don't the game that you love will be altered without you having any say in it.
Probably the most obnoxious thing about all this testing, is that if you play the game seriously is that you are almost forcefully compelled to participate in the tests because if you don't the game that you love will be altered without you having any say in it.
Unfortunately, the metagame is DYNAMIC and thus is always stable at one time, but is always changing in between the stability. Inherent in metagames is a lack of permanent stability (overall, that is. I don't think anyone will be using Metapod or Kakuna in OU if they're a serious player!)
I'm not talking about stability of the meta, I'm talking about stability of game conditions (rules).
In any game, people are always coming up with new strategies, but the game is able to develop and progress because people know they can rely on the rules of the game.
In any game, people are always coming up with new strategies, but the game is able to develop and progress because people know they can rely on the rules of the game.
Brick Break is used to beat blissey on a mixed set. Is Blissey as common as it once was? In a physical metagame is Salamence really determined to give up coverage on Pokemon just to hit a Blissey? It's not. If you're running a wall breaking set and determined to beat Blissey, Dragonite has better options and is already a better wall breaker.
Roost is in the same boat. I've seen you point out how viable Defensive Sets are on Salamence. They are outclassed by Dragonite, no contest. Especially when Dragonite can cure status and help the rest of the team. 33 more points in Defense and 54 more in Special Defense? Yes please. Salamence is an offensive Pokemon, not a defensive one. Roost is a waste of a turn on a Salamence. Who cares if you restore your HP to 100% if you just have to switch out again because you're now forced out since you didn't attack. Salamence's best defense is it's offense, and I don't know why you think forcing defensive moves on it is going to make it an excellent defensive Pokemon.
Really, why would I even consider those moves. If Brick Break is so viable and can compete equally with moves like Earthquake and Fire Blast, why is it that Salamence only uses it 13.4% of the time. Why isn't it using it 77.9% of the time like Earthquake? Roost is used on 21.5% of all Salamence. I don't understand why they're running it, but they are. That's still not as common as the 5 moves I listed, all used on over 40% of Salamence. I've kept in mind what's viable and effective, but if it's outclassed I'm not considering it to be used. If you want to run Brick Break > EQ/FB/Outrage/DM then be my guest, just expect to lose a lot of that power that Salamence likes to have.
Roost + Dragon Dance is spectacularly useful. Roost allows you to battle longer. Survivability, as I have often found, is worth plenty of CRE points. Any move used >10% of the time is worth considering planning for. As it happens, you fail to consider that Salamence doesn't mind switching out if it's to a counter to the pokemon that forced it out, assuming Mence has Roost (I have used Mence on stall to great effect). So, Roost is good for Stall teams. Also, 33 more defense? I'd rather have Intimidate. Much more physically bulky. Roost is for switching around in stall (like softboiled on Blissey).
Bullshit. Brick break 2hko's blissey without locking into outrage, kind of a biggie. It also 2hko's heatran and empoleon, not to bad a trade off for things you'd normally use earthquake for, with fire blast hitting gross and rachi super effective. Oh yeah, you also 0hko ttar, something earthquake can't always do on mixed sets. The super sweet bonus being that it breaks screens on hyper offense.
Roost is not inferior. Have you ever heard the phrase, "live to fight another day?" There's nothing more frustrating than switching out of a mixed salamence only to have it roost back it's health.
And dragonite is not superior defensively. Salamence has intimidate, which is actually kind of a big deal. How much experience have you actually had with bulky mence? It is a monster and I'm inclined to say you have no idea what you're talking about if you're just automatically dismissing mence's defensive sets, which can be quite offensive too. The best defense could be a good offense, but wouldn't you rather have a good offense and a good defense?
Oh yeah, fyi, you misspelled "opposed" in your sig as "apposed", unless you're trying to be so clever that no one knows what you're trying to say. I'd think it was just a typo but, well you made that mistake twice.
I found that bulkyMence makes for a very exceptional end-game sweeper that can work best in a stall-based balance/semi-stall team that sets up for it. Just keep in mind that Salamence still isn't Uber by the defensive characteristic since it can't wall the majority of the metagame without effort. In fact, it dies to anything with an Ice move if it is still slower than the threat.
All of those things you listed are not as fast as Dragonite who is still running a better mixed set that can do all of those things. Why aren't you running Dragonite if you're so uptight about beating Blissey, that's what I still wonder. Dragonite is outclassing Salamence altogether as a wall breaker.
Again, Salamence's best offense is it's defense. If you're running Mixed Salamence let's look at your common moves, shall we? Draco Meteor/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Outrage. So you either give up your powerful physical Dragon moves to be not really a Mixed Dragon anymore and lose to Blissey, you give up Draco Meteor and be walled by high defense Pokemon, or you give up moves that provide coverage. There is nothing more frustrating than seeing my mixed Salamence not break walls like I wanted it to do.
Salamence has intimidate which works on a first time switch in and if the opponent switches you're down to being short on Defense. And it doesn't help at all against special threats. I've used Bulky Mence plenty of times before, and the other day I was pissed off that I was having trouble beating one lol. But yeah I have experience with both mons, and Dragonite always comes through. Why would you give up such an offensive monster for defense if there is a near identical clone of it with better defenses? 54 points in special defense with access to team support in Heal Bell or Light Screen is awesome and it gets those still pretty big 34 points in defense versus Salamence.
Again, what good offense do you have if you put it into defense? The Standard BulkyMence straight off of the Analysis gives up the 400 (possible +1) Attack and 299 (possible +1) Speed for a much lower 306 Atk, and not quite as low 280 Speed (just enough to outspeed neutral base 90s). Why? To go from 196/176 Defenses to 241/196 Defenses. A Bulky DDNite has 50 more points in Attack, loses 15 points in Defense, gains 40 in SpD and after a +1 is outspeeding +Base 115s.
Dragonite can come in on any given thing (bar a threatening Physical attacker) and gain a Dragon Dance on the switch in, and the same can happen for Salamence. That puts Dragonite as overall having superior stats aside from 15 points in Def [which equals 4% difference in Scizors Bullet Punch, the most threatening thing on that side I can think of] and less speed and both can be a 75%. Bulky DDNite is more of threat defensively and offensively than a regular BulkyMence. I don't see why you would give up that Offensive Power for mediocre Defense. Heck, you can give Latias Reflect and it'll be better defensively than that Salamence, it'll just miss out on locking itself into Outrage on the physical side.
Intimidate is helpful on the Specially Bulky Salamence for one switch in, but after that one switch in a physical attacker like Scizor is still free to come in on you and hit you harder than it would Dragonite. That's why Intimidate isn't as helpful as you'd like it to be, it's a one time thing. The BulkyMence might get a kick out of it but a special threat can come in on it very easily, especially with the loss in power. Bulky Waters get a kick out of Bulky Mence as opposed to the regular DDMence.
Oh thanks lol I misspelled "due" as "do" originally too xD I'll fix that.
Brick Break and Earthquake is kind of a toss up. Obviously, Earthquake overall seems like the better option, but both are definitely competitively viable.
Salamence is definitely more suited for offensive sets while Dragonite is better at bulky sets. But don't take that to the extreme and automatically write off BulkyMence or OffensiveNite. Both are still capable sets and there's something to be said about unpredictability in battle. When one of them comes out mid-to-late game, the opponent should be aware of both possibilities.
Speaking of unpredictability, I find it amusing that the old "Salamence will severely damage one of my Pokemon on a coinflip prediction" argument is still alive and kicking. There was talk last gen about how CBMence could dent anything in the game with a random prediction (CBMence was used fairly often as a lead and it's not really prediction if you have zero idea what Pokemon your opponent has aside from the opposing lead).
But seriously, Pokemon is far from 100% skill anyway. Make a wrong "prediction" with Salamence? Deal with it.
Speaking of unpredictability, I find it amusing that the old "Salamence will severely damage one of my Pokemon on a coinflip prediction" argument is still alive and kicking. There was talk last gen about how CBMence could dent anything in the game with a random prediction (CBMence was used fairly often as a lead and it's not really prediction if you have zero idea what Pokemon your opponent has aside from the opposing lead).
But seriously, Pokemon is far from 100% skill anyway. Make a wrong "prediction" with Salamence? Deal with it.
Roost is definitely not an inferior option. I find Classic Mixmence to be a much bigger threat than New Mixmence because it doesn't hit take SR damage upon coming in, hit something and take recoil damage, get forced out to later take SR damage again and become a piece of garbage. It actually has longevity and can be a threat for much of the match.
No, this is incorrect.
Part of the role of an administrative body is that you are constantly monitoring and testing the system you're administrating. There is ALWAYS something to be testing; that does not mean that there is always something that will be changing. That, after all, is part of the testing process.
Actually, yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. If you could get a big enough group of Blissey-haters, it would show that there is a prima facie case that there is a problem. The testing period would determine whether or not that was the case; after all, the testing process is democratic, just with the proviso that you have to actually be participating in the data collection.
There is no such thing as time-wasting unless you have something more pressing to test. If Smogon is going to pride itself on being the authority on rulings for Competitive pokemon, part of that responsibility is to be monitoring and testing the metagame. There should never be a period where nothing is under test, but that doesn't mean the metagame is not in flux. I understand that this takes a lot of time for a number of people, but the same is true of EVERY major competitive game circuit with a governing administrator.
I'm not sure people understand that Salamence, unlike Gengar or Infernape, can spam its stab move of choice(Draco Meteor) then proceed to roast its checks(as the ones that can survive Draco Meteor are slower) with Earthquake or Fire Blast(does enough w/Draco Meteor to keep Skarmory, Scizor, Metagross, Jirachi, etc away). Gengar must either Explode itself or predict a switch to Blissey and Sub/Focus Punch it. Neither of these are any threatening to pokemon like Jirachi, Metagross, or even Scizor. Then Gengar must run HP Fire to combat Scizor, which in turn means it lacks coverage for Gyarados and various water types. Same idea with Infernape.
Dragon is such a superior type to fighting, fire, or ghost that pokemon like Infernape and Gengar simply aren't comparable. Their STABs are great, but dragon is in a whole other league when it comes to coverage, and Salamence's checks are all easily handled by high powered moves.
Dragon is such a superior type to fighting, fire, or ghost that pokemon like Infernape and Gengar simply aren't comparable. Their STABs are great, but dragon is in a whole other league when it comes to coverage, and Salamence's checks are all easily handled by high powered moves.
There is a lot that Salamence going for it, and against it. Yes, it hits like a tank, yes it's unpredictable, but it's not the only pokemon in OU to do so. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Salamence leave OU, it is a pokemon that is hard to switch into, but thanks to the few common recurring battle conditions, Salamence can't stay in for too long, you MUST factor in 25% Stealth Rock, 6% Sandstorm damage, 10% Life Orb damage (if it has it) and then damage it takes on the switch in (if this also applies), so you are looking at 31% (at least) on the switch alone (25% if Salamence comes in after a pokemon has fainted). It will also take 6% + 10% each turn assuming it 1. Stays in and 2. has Life Orb, it all adds up really quickly.
Another thing is that Salamence, unlike Garchomp, cannot utilise Yache Berry quite so well because there is a lack of bulk on the special side and will usually take 31% damage on switch-ins. I am not saying Salamence can't take a hit, it has a small amount of bulk, just not in comparison to the likes of Dragonite or Garchomp.
If you flip the arguement over, you have the fact that it can usually 2HKO everything with 1 DD, and would need a Scarfer or Scizor (or other strong priority) to be able to take it down, or there is the Mix set which hits both sides of the spectrum pretty damned hard. I believe its movepool isn't god awful, but it's not amazing, when you think MixMence, you think: Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Outrage, or on the DD Set: Dragon Dance, Outrage/Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Fire Blast/Fire Fang. You can see the recurring type coverage here (yes I am aware that it can hit everything in the game for neutral or more). In this respect, it's predictable.
Personally, I am not convinced it is Uber material, but I wouldn't mind seeing it get tested. IF I had to say it were uber under any category at all, it would have to be the Offensive Characteristic, but thats only if I thought it was Uber material, and I'm not sure it even fits that.
Another thing is that Salamence, unlike Garchomp, cannot utilise Yache Berry quite so well because there is a lack of bulk on the special side and will usually take 31% damage on switch-ins. I am not saying Salamence can't take a hit, it has a small amount of bulk, just not in comparison to the likes of Dragonite or Garchomp.
If you flip the arguement over, you have the fact that it can usually 2HKO everything with 1 DD, and would need a Scarfer or Scizor (or other strong priority) to be able to take it down, or there is the Mix set which hits both sides of the spectrum pretty damned hard. I believe its movepool isn't god awful, but it's not amazing, when you think MixMence, you think: Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Outrage, or on the DD Set: Dragon Dance, Outrage/Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Fire Blast/Fire Fang. You can see the recurring type coverage here (yes I am aware that it can hit everything in the game for neutral or more). In this respect, it's predictable.
Personally, I am not convinced it is Uber material, but I wouldn't mind seeing it get tested. IF I had to say it were uber under any category at all, it would have to be the Offensive Characteristic, but thats only if I thought it was Uber material, and I'm not sure it even fits that.
Gengar can use it's weaker STAB move Shadow Ball and proceed to roast everything in the top 20 bar Blissey and Scizor (due to Bullet Punch) and I've shown this already. Shadow Ball alone can 2HKO everything but Tyranitar, Scizor, and Blissey on the standard set. It doesn't lack coverage for Gyarados lol it 2HKOs every Gyarados in the analysis with Shadow Ball and why would it give up Thunderbolt and keep two Hidden Powers? On a common set of Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / HP Ice / Thunderbolt you give up the Hidden Power for a new Hidden Power, not Thunderbolt. And it doesn't run explosion because there are quite a few ways a team could do it by itself, and if Blissey is no big deal to the sweeper it doesn't really need to be taken care of anyway :/
Infernape doesn't need to spam a move, because all it can hit everything super effectively. I'm sure it could spam Fire Blast, it 2HKOs [assuming Special Mixed] everything in the top 20 besides Blissey, Vaporeon, Heatran (due to common scarfers), Latias and Starmie ( Bulky Gyara can be 2HKOd with Fire Blast + Grass Knot if SR is in play.) Or it could spam Close Combat [special mixed] and not at least 2HKO Latias or Starmie. Both of these can spam their strong move and act just like Salamence in the regard they can severely weaken the opposing Pokemon to the point where they can follow up with another move or the same move and finish it.
So if Bronzong comes in on Draco Meteor you can handle it? If Metagross takes a Draco Meteor you can still handle it before it attacks you? It's doing ~50% with CB Bullet Punch. There are Pokemon that can come in on Draco Meteor and eliminate you before you can attack them, especially since if you're running MixMence you're more likely brining it out earlier in the game than you would a DDMence. Can you handle Scarf Rachi if it comes in on Draco Meteor? What about Scizor? Scarf Heatran? All these are Pokemon you can't deal with by just spamming Draco Meteor, and they can all be considered checks to Salamence.
I wish people would stop assuming Sandstorm. It's absent from more teams than it's present (of course the same goes for Salamence), and if it's really necessary to have SS or Hail to take down Salamence, then while that may not directly impact Salamence's Uberness, I don't feel requiring every team to be a sand or hail team is a good thing.
As far as I am aware, the most common battle conditions are Stealth Rock up, no Spikes or TSpikes, and no weather.
Well I think the SS being common battle conditions carries over from back in the day when they decided on Uber Characteristics, January 2009 I think. Tyranitar and Hippowdon were used less then, and more now, so I don't see why we shouldn't still assume that it is common battle conditions. Since Tyranitar is used on 1 in 5 teams and #4 most used overall, I see no reason to assume it isn't common battle conditions, besides maybe it's under 33% but it would be crazy if Ttar was used that much.
I think you have to consider sand as a common battle condition because Tyranitar is almost omnipresent on offensive teams, the teams Salamence appears on most (ttar ranked 3rd most common Salamence teammate).
Sand just does so much for offensive teams, it is almost impossible to ignore. While you could say "it's hitting both sides," getting rid of leftovers recovery on all the fat tanks of the metagame is too precious for them to ignore, especially when pitted against truly obstinate opponents like Celebi, Zapdos and bulky waters like Vaporeon. Offensive teams especially cannot afford to allow leftovers recovery on such pokes while they are switching around. If anything, users of mixmence will actually want sand blowing so they can suicide more easily, dying before the enemy has a chance to set up on outrage. So yeah, adding sand into the equation is pretty fair.
Sand just does so much for offensive teams, it is almost impossible to ignore. While you could say "it's hitting both sides," getting rid of leftovers recovery on all the fat tanks of the metagame is too precious for them to ignore, especially when pitted against truly obstinate opponents like Celebi, Zapdos and bulky waters like Vaporeon. Offensive teams especially cannot afford to allow leftovers recovery on such pokes while they are switching around. If anything, users of mixmence will actually want sand blowing so they can suicide more easily, dying before the enemy has a chance to set up on outrage. So yeah, adding sand into the equation is pretty fair.
Even with Sandstorm Salamence can last long enough to do some good damage, I agree, sand is a good offensive weapon, if used properly, if your team is mostly offensive and can handle the damage sandstorm does per turn than I'd say use it. Plus if you do your homework right and breed/use shoddy to set up the proper hp, then you'll get the maximum use out of your Salamence.
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