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Shaymin (Gen 4, Choice Scarf)*

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by EspyJoel, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. EspyJoel

    EspyJoel Espy <3
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    This is a set I've been using for a while in OU and other good people have used before to great success so after talking to Philip7086, I decided to write it up.

    STATUS: Done.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/shaymin

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Seed Flare
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Earth Power
    move 4: Rest / Energy Ball / Air Slash
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ivs: 22 Atk / 30 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Shaymin makes an awesome user of Choice Scarf; by reaching 492 Speed, it can revenge kill a multitude of Pokémon, while also giving teams useful resistances to common Electric-, Ground-, and Water-type attacks. Seed Flare is its main attack and with STAB, it has 180 Base Power, allowing Shaymin to even hurt the Pokémon who resist it. Not only that, but it also has a 40% chance to lower the Special Defense of the opposing Pokémon by two stages. Hidden Power Ice is in the next slot as it lets Shaymin revenge kill a +1 Salamence, but be wary as you risk a speed tie against positive Speed variations. Hidden Power Ice also provides a hard hit on other Dragon- and Grass-types, who may try and switch into a resisted Seed Flare. Earth Power is in the third slot as it will always OHKO the common Naive Heatran who lack a Shuca Berry. It also hits other Fire- and Steel-types who resist the previous two moves.</p>

    <p>The last slot is more filler than anything. Rest is the main option as it can help Shaymin stay around longer, while thanks to Natural Cure, Shaymin will recover from the status once it switches out. However, there are some good alternatives. Shaymin can use Energy Ball for a secondary Grass-type STAB as Seed Flare's 85% accuracy may be unreliable at times. Grass Knot could be used instead if you prefer to hit heavier foes harder. Air Slash will easily OHKO Breloom; with Stealth Rock, it OHKOes 96 HP Heracross as well. The 30% flinch rate can also prove useful at times. Another minor option is Healing Wish which can be used at the cost of Shaymin to heal another member of your team's HP and status, giving them a second chance at a sweep.</p>

    <p>You may be tempted to use Celebi instead of Shaymin as a Choice Scarf user as it has a bigger movepool with useful moves such as Trick and U-turn; however, Shaymin has many advantages which set it apart from Celebi. First, and perhaps most importantly, Shaymin is not weak to Pursuit, which allows it to switch safely out of Tyranitar and Scizor. Not having Ghost- and Dark-type weaknesses is very useful as it makes switching into Rotom-A and others safer, although sadly Shaymin lacks a Fighting-type resistance. Furthermore, Celebi is forced to use Leaf Storm, which reduces its Special Attack harshly and forces it to switch after attacking.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Timid nature with maximum Speed is used so that at worst, Shaymin speed ties with opposing +1 positive Speed natured Salamence, as well as outspeeding almost any non-Choice Scarf user. Maximum Special Attack is used so that Shaymin can hit as hard as possible and makes Seed Flare a much deadlier move. The remaining 4 EVs are put into HP to take hits a bit better. 22 Attack and 30 Defense IVs are for a legal 70 Base Power Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    <p>There are many Pokémon who you must deal with to use this set effectively. Forretress and Skarmory are the most important two as their 4x resistance to Seed Flare and lack of weakness to the other moves means they can easily switch in and proceed to set up multiple layers of Spikes. Therefore, Magnezone can make a great partner as its Magnet Pull ability can trap both of the aforementioned Pokémon if they lack Shed Shell and then OHKO both with Hidden Power Fire and Thunderbolt, respectively. Magnezone can also take any Bug-, Ice-, and Flying-type attacks aimed at Shaymin. Fire-types, such as Heatran and Infernape, are also great partners to scare off both Forretress and Skarmory, while also resisting Shaymin's Bug-, Fire-, and Ice-type weaknesses. Heatran is of extra use here because it resists Shaymin's Flying-type weakness and Fire-type moves aimed at Shaymin will activate its Flash Fire ability, making its own Fire-type attacks 1.5x stronger.</p>

    <p>Blissey and Snorlax can also stop Shaymin in its tracks thanks to their high Special Defense. Even a Special Defense drop from Seed Flare won't let Shaymin get past Blissey; however, Snorlax must be careful that Seed Flare doesn't get a Special Defense drop, as it will do 44.9%-53.1% to Careful 168 HP and 220 Special Defense variations and even more to less bulky ones. The previously mentioned Infernape can deal with both of these Pokémon as it has a powerful STAB 120 Base Power Close Combat to hit them super effectively to their lower Defense stat. Other Fighting-types such as Heracross, Lucario, and Machamp also make effective partners to scare away the aforementioned special walls. They also all have a useful Bug-type resistance to help Shaymin out, and in Lucario's case, an Ice-type resistance. Not only that, but they can also set up on a Choice-locked Pursuit should your opponent trap a weakened Shaymin with either Scizor or Tyranitar. Lures with Explosion, such as Heatran, Gengar, and Magnezone can be useful to take out the aforementioned special walls.</p>

    <p>Scizor can cause this set some problems, as with Stealth Rock support, Earth Power only 3HKOes at best meaning it can switch in a few times and U-turn away or Pursuit Shaymin as it switches out. Therefore, the previously mentioned Magnezone can be a very useful partner to trap and OHKO Scizor with Hidden Power Fire, although if it is using U-turn, you will have to predict the switch-in and switch to Magnezone. Heatran also scares off Scizor with STAB Fire-type attacks, and only fears being hit by Superpower on the switch. Gyarados can use Scizor to set up, although with Stealth Rock up, it will have trouble switching into multiple U-turns. Latias, Togekiss, and Zapdos resist or are immune to everything except Hidden Power Ice, so they can do well against Choice Scarf Shaymin. Scizor can therefore make a good partner to deal with the first two, while also having useful Bug- and Ice-type resistances. Tyranitar can deal with all three of the aforementioned Pokémon, especially if it is carrying a Choice Scarf to avoid their super effective attacks. It can then Pursuit them if they switch out or OHKO Latias with Crunch and Togekiss / Zapdos with Stone Edge (after Stealth Rock damage). It also has useful Fire- and Flying-type resistances to help Shaymin out.</p>

    <p>Lastly, Dragon Dance users such as Dragonite, Gyarados, and Salamence can be problematic if they switch in on Earth Power or Seed Flare. These three can cause a lot of damage after even one Dragon Dance, so packing a Pokeémon to deal with them can be useful. Rotom-A is a great Pokémon to deal with Gyarados thanks to its high Defense and STAB Thunderbolt. It can also utilize a Choice Scarf to outspeed even +1 Jolly Gyarados, while having useful resistances to Bug- and Flying-type attacks. Vaporeon can also 2HKO Gyarados with Hidden Power Electric while taking hits well thanks to its high HP and decent Defense stats. Ice Shard users such as Mamoswine and Weavile can deal with Dragonite and Salamence, as can Scizor after some prior damage. Timid Choice Scarf Gengar and Latias can outspeed all three of the aforementioned Pokémon and KO them with powerful special attacks. Gengar does however need Stealth Rock support for Dragonite.</p>
  2. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Just a couple of things. Changes in Bold, removals in red.


  3. jumpluff

    jumpluff princess
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    p.s. damage calcs are given in true form (though i don't believe they're necessary here), because of screens, stat drops, and to demonstrate power. it's also more accurate. @jc

    you mention a few pokémon repeatedly, so maybe this could be reformatted if you get time to compress it, but good work! @joelly
  4. macle

    macle ribbit
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  5. EspyJoel

    EspyJoel Espy <3
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    -Edited in those changes jc104.
    -Thanks jumpluff, edited in all those except the who -> that ones as Pokemon are referred to as people.
    -Fixed that one typo macle.
  6. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
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    Changes in blue
    Removals in red
    Comments in [brackets] and green

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Seed Flare
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Earth Power
    move 4: Air Slash / Rest / Healing Wish
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ivs: 22 Atk / 30 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Shaymin makes an awesome user of Choice Scarf; reaching 492 Speed, it can revenge kill a multitude of Pokemon, while also giving teams useful resistances to common Electric-, Ground-, and Water-type attacks. Seed Flare is its main attack and with STAB has 180 Base Power, allowing it to hurt even Pokémon who resist it. Not only that, but it also has a useful 40% chance to lower the Special Defense of the opposing Pokemon by two stages. Hidden Power Ice is in the next slot as it lets Shaymin revenge kill a +1 Salamence; however, you do risk a speed tie against positive Speed variations. Hidden Power Ice also hits other Dragon-types and Grass-types hard who may try and switch into a resisted Seed Flare. Earth Power is in the third slot as it will always OHKO the common Naive Heatran who lack a Shuca Berry. It also hits other Fire- and Steel-types who resist the previous two moves.</p>

    <p>The last slot is more filler than anything. Air Slash is the main option as it hits Bug- and Grass-types harder than any of the other moves and also will easily OHKO Breloom. With Stealth Rock, it OHKOes 96 HP Heracross as well. The 30% flinch rate can also prove useful at times. [to me this seems like a pretty useless and out-there sentence, but its your call to remove it or not] However, there are some good alternatives. Rest can allow Shaymin to stay around for longer, and thanks to Natural Cure, Shaymin will recover off the status once it switches out. Healing Wish can also be used at the cost of Shaymin to heal another member of your team's HP and status, giving them a second chance at a sweep. Shaymin can even use another Grass-type attack, such as Grass Knot or Energy Ball, since Seed Flare only has 85% accuracy and may be unreliable at times.</p>

    <p>You may be tempted to use Celebi instead of Shaymin as a Choice Scarf user as it has a bigger movepool with useful moves such as Trick and U-turn; however, Shaymin has many advantages which set it apart from Celebi. First, and perhaps most importantly, Shaymin is not weak to Pursuit, which allows it to switch safely out of Tyranitar and Scizor. Not having a Ghost- and Dark-type weaknesses is very useful as it makes switching into Rotom-A and others safer, although sadly Shaymin lacks a Fighting-type resistance. Furthermore, Celebi is forced to use Leaf Storm, which reduces its Special Attack harshly and forces it to switch after attacking.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Timid nature with maximum Speed is used so that Shaymin at worst speed ties with opposing +1 positive Speed natured Salamence, as well as outspeeding almost any non-Choice Scarf user. Maximum Special Attack is used so that Shaymin can hit as hard as possible and makes Seed Flare a much deadlier move. The remaining 4 EVs are put into HP to take hits a bit better. [since 4 EVs basically make no difference at all I would consider removing this sentence] 22 Atk IV and 30 Defense IVs are for a legal 70 Base Power Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    <p>There are many Pokemon who you must deal with to use this set effectively. Forretress and Skarmory are the most important two as their 4x resistance to Seed Flare and lack of weakness to the other moves means they can easily switch in and proceed to set up multiple layers of Spikes. Therefore, Magnezone can make a great partner as its Magnet Pull ability can trap both of the aforementioned Pokemon if they lack Shed Shell and then OHKO both with Hidden Power Fire and Thunderbolt, respectively. Magnezone can also take any Bug-, Ice-, and Flying-type attacks aimed at Shaymin. Fire-types, such as Heatran and Infernape, are also great partners to scare off both Forretress and Skarmory, while also resisting Shaymin's Bug-, Fire-, and Ice-type weaknesses. Heatran is of extra use here because it resists Shaymin's Flying-type weakness and Fire-type moves aimed at Shaymin will activate its Flash Fire ability, making its Fire-type attacks 1.5x stronger.</p>

    <p>Blissey and Snorlax can also stop Shaymin in its tracks thanks to their high Special Defense. Even a Special Defense drop from Seed Flare won't let Shaymin get past Blissey; however, Snorlax must be careful that Seed Flare doesn't get a Special Defense drop though, as it will do 44.9%-53.1% to Careful, 168 HP and 220 Special Defense variations and even more to less bulky ones. The previously mentioned Infernape can deal with both of these Pokemon as it has a powerful STAB 120 Base Power Close Combat to hit them super effectively to their lower Defense stat. Other Fighting-types such as Heracross, Lucario, and Machamp also make effective partners to scare away the aforementioned special walls. They also all have a useful Bug-type resistance to help Shaymin out, and in Lucario’s case, an Ice-type resistance. Not only that, but they can also set up on a Choice-locked Pursuit should your opponent trap a weakened Shaymin with either Scizor or Tyranitar. Lures with Explosion, such as Heatran, Gengar, and Magnezone, can be useful to take out the aforementioned special walls.</p>

    <p>Scizor can cause this set some problems, as with Stealth Rock support, Earth Power only 3HKOes it at best meaning it can switch in a few times and U-turn away or Pursuit Shaymin as it switches out. Therefore, the previously mentioned Magnezone can be a very useful partner to trap and OHKO Scizor with Hidden Power Fire, although if it is using U-turn, you will have to predict the switch-in and switch to Magnezone. Heatran also scares off Scizor with STAB Fire-type attacks, and only fears being hit by Superpower on the switch. Gyarados can use Scizor to set up; however, with Stealth Rock up, it will have trouble switching into multiple U-turns. Latias, Togekiss, and Zapdos resist or are immune to [none of the Pokemon you mentioned are immune to any of Shaymin's moves] everything except Hidden Power Ice, so they can do well against Choice Scarf Shaymin. Scizor can therefore make a good partner to deal with the first two, while also having useful Bug- and Ice-type resistances. Tyranitar can deal with all three of the aforementioned Pokemon, especially if it is carrying a Choice Scarf to avoid their super effective attacks. It can then Pursuit them if they switch out or OHKO Latias with Crunch and Togekiss / Zapdos with Stone Edge. It also has useful Fire- and Flying-type resistances to help Shaymin out. Tentacruel can also cause Shaymin problems as Seed Flare and Earth Power only muster a 3HKO, meaning Tentacruel can get up at least one layer of Toxic Spikes and even more if it switches in on Hidden Power Ice or Air Slash. Therefore, Dugtrio can trap and OHKO Tentacruel with Earthquake. Pokemon such as Gyarados and Salamence can also do a ton of damage with Earthquake, or just scare Tentacruel out while Dragon Dancing, although you must watch out for Ice Beam in Salamence's case. Jolteon and Zapdos can 2HKO Tentacruel with Thunderbolt. Kingdra is one of the best Pokemon to deal with Tentacruel as it resists Water-type attacks and is not hit super effectively by any other attack so can set up a Dragon Dance or more on Tentacruel and proceed to do a lot of damage. Kingdra also has a 4x resistance to the Fire-type attacks aimed at Shaymin.</p>

    <p>Lastly, Dragon Dance users such as Dragonite, Gyarados, and Salamence can be problematic if they switch in on Earth Power or Seed Flare in the two Dragon-types case if Stealth Rock isn't up. These three can cause a lot of damage after even one Dragon Dance, so packing a Pokemon to deal with them can be useful. Rotom-A is a great Pokemon to deal with Gyarados thanks to its high Defense and STAB Thunderbolt. It can also utilize a Choice Scarf to outspeed even +1 Jolly Gyarados, while having useful resistances to Bug- and Flying-type attacks. Vaporeon can also 2HKO Gyarados with Hidden Power Electric while taking hits well thanks to its high HP and decent Defense stats. Ice Shard users such as Mamoswine and Weavile can deal with Dragonite and Salamence, as can Scizor after some prior damage. Choice Specs or Life Orb Jolteon can outspeed Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados and then OHKO them with Hidden Power Ice (with Stealth Rock support for Life Orb Jolteon) and Thunderbolt, respectively, so makes a great partner. [Jolteon is a pretty shaky counter to Gyarados in my opinion (especially since most are Jolly and carry Earthquake) so I would remove this if I were you] Timid Choice Scarf Gengar and Latias can outspeed all three of the aforementioned Pokemon and KO them with powerful special attacks. Gengar does need Stealth Rock support for Dragonite though.</p>

    Good job Joel! ;)
  7. EspyJoel

    EspyJoel Espy <3
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    Thanks Snorlaxe, I added in what was needed from there.
  8. diinbong

    diinbong *it's in you to give*
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    Can we reword this sentence

    to this?

    I'd argue that you could remove the bolded section completely because it is pretty negligible...

    Air Slash vs.
    Roserade: 50.4% - 59.5%
    Celebi: 33.7% - 40.1%
    Ninjask: 77.5% - 91.2%

    HP Ice vs.
    Roserade: 47.3% - 55.7%
    Celebi: 31.7% - 37.6%
    Ninjask: 72.3% - 85.3%

    ---

    I worry that the team options section is very long (it is probably 65% of the whole writeup). It would be nice if you could shorten it a bit! Anyway this is very well written and I fully support this set.
  9. EspyJoel

    EspyJoel Espy <3
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    Thanks diinbong, reworded that sentence and removed that bit. Will work on shortening the Team Options section at somepoint.
  10. mtr

    mtr

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    I would recommend making Rest the primary option for the fourth slot, as it works well with Natural Cure, and Air Slash is really sorta redundant with HP Ice. However, it's up to you.
  11. EspyJoel

    EspyJoel Espy <3
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    @mtr - I've decided to make the order of the last slot Rest / Energy Ball / Air Slash with Grass Knot mentioned in set comments as an alternative to Energy Ball and also a minor mention of Healing Wish.
  12. acid_paradox

    acid_paradox

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    I think that another optional nature to run should be Modest, as 100 base speed with 252 EV's with a scarf will outrun Heatran anyways, +spe nature or not. I know timid is essential for speed-tying base 100's like Flygon, but I still think Modest should be listed as an option for more power while still outrunning Standard Gengar and max speed Choice Scarf Heatran. Just a suggestion.
  13. deluge

    deluge

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    I would change

    to

    Not a big deal but, IMO, the sentence flows more clearly with the parenthetical clause in the middle.

    Cool set!
    Putting rest on a scarfer with Natural Cure is an interesting idea.
  14. EspyJoel

    EspyJoel Espy <3
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    Concised this a bit, although if anyone wants to try and help concising it even more then please do.
    @acid_paradox - I don't really feel Modest deserves a mention, I see no reason not to speed tie with other +1 base 100s and although more power may be nice, I don't think it's worth this extra speed.
    @deluge - I changed that sentence to flow better but not the way you stated as it seemed to sound weird when I go over it through my head.
  15. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    changes
    removal

  16. EspyJoel

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    Thanks ZystraL, edited in what was needed from there. I think this is done now.
  17. bojangles

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