Skymin Discussion Thread

[Caelum]

Agreeing. This thing looks like it's going to be stopped by revenge killing it rather than walling it since with Serene Grace (outside of Registeel/Regice) it's not going to be feasible anyway. With Serene Grace Seed Flare it doesn't need a surprise physical set anyway.

 

[chaos 9]

I refer to the sig of somone that said:

Whenever I suggest a garchomp counter there are rocks, 3 spikes, t-spikes, sand storm, garchomp has 6+ atk and his moveset is eq,dclaw,outrage,draco meteor, stone edge, and fire blast.

This is obviously exaggerated but the same applies to skymin. It can't have sub/seed/hp fire,ice,ground,fighting/seed flare/air slash and growth all at the same time. It can also not hold yache, life orb, and specs at the same time either. That would be an uber poke. But since it can only run 4 moves with one item, it is wallable and revengable therefore not uber. Especially without playtesting!

 

[zxn666]

Totally agree with Aldaron here. All this theorymon about tiers and placing is going to get us nowhere. Until Shaymin can be tested to see its viability in OU, we cannot say where it should be.

I personally think the Subseed set (252 HP, 252 speed, 4 SpA with Leech seed, sub, seed flare, air slash) is the most dangerous. Not only does Skymin have the fastest sub-seed of all grass types, but it also has 101 subs too! Blissey can be easily worn down with this, as it can't break the sub with one seismic toss. And grass types are neutered by Air slash.

The changes to the metagame are great. Who knows what might be a rising star with this generation change?

 

[Selphimist]

Jeez, Shaymin's gotten waaaay better than its Land Form. With that kind of speed and the pretty damned high chance of lowering special walls' Defense, save for the Regis with Clear Body, the hits that Skymin will give out will be catastrophic for just about any wall that doesn't have the same capabilities of a Pokemon specifically made to handle a Skymin, like the Regis. Because if Skymin doesn't take you out the first time with a critical hit, the next attack will damned sure be super effective. >.>

However, it's all just speculation. Like Rhyperior back when we thought it was gonna be the wall to end all walls, we gotta test it out first to see if it'll be any good in our metagame right now. With Garchomp gone from OU plus the new moves, it's too soon to say that anything will rock the foundation of the metagame without seeing what it's really capable of first.

But I won't be surprised if this thing's the choice Pokemon for just about every team, be it Uber, OU, BL, UU, or NU.

 

[IggyBot]

Aldaron beat me to the punch, but stop with the tier discussion. We can't even use Sky Shaymin in competitave play yet, so arguing about Uber/OU with NO experience is stupid.

 

[cim]

hhjj, many people have mentioned Metagross as a viable switch-in, I think.

Guys... haven't we confirmed that there is no way to battle with him? Why is this even up for discussion at this point? If you can't battle with him, he's not a real Pokémon.

 

[Not Scicky]

Skymin has ALOT more counters, get it through your heads guys...

Mamoswine
Weavile
Zapdos
Heatran
Lucario (If it doesn't end up uber)
Gengar (Immune to HP Fighting and Ground, resists Seed Flare, is only 2KO'd by Air Slash)

I could list ALOT more if I tried T_T

@Chris: There is a way, just it's not available to us yet

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Skymin has ALOT more counters, get it through your heads guys...

Mamoswine
Weavile
Zapdos
Heatran
Lucario (If it doesn't end up uber)
Gengar (Immune to HP Fighting and Ground, resists Seed Flare, is only 2KO'd by Air Slash)

I could list ALOT more if I tried T_T

A counter by definition is a Pokemon that can safely switch in. That means they have to be able to survive two hits. Zapdos is the only one out of the list you posted that can be considered a counter; however, due to the strong effects from Seed Flare and a likely encounter with Stealth Rock, Zapdos is not nearly as reliable as Registeel/Regice.

 

[Not Scicky]

Those guys don't have to take more than one hit half the time :S

Mamoswine and Weavile both have ice shard (or better depending on what stuff you're running)
Gengar can switch in on half of Shaymins moves and still take one more. (Scarfgar doesn't even have to take one more and it's common enough anyway)

T_T

 

[Bogmire]

How the fuck does mamoswine counter skymin? revenge kill sure, but not counter.

gengar is 2HKOed by seed flare, spD drop or not. scarf variants could counter it with hp ice, but they risk a OHKO from specs air slash.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Mamoswine won't survive a Seed Flare. Substitute is something you'd have to be looking out for since it appears to be a popular choice right now. Aside from the obvious counters of Registeel, Regice, and Metagross, it's hard to determine what its counters will be. It needs to be tested. Theorymon can't decide everything. If Substitute does become standard issue, I high doubt Heatran or Weavile would like to take a hit from Hidden Power Ground or Seed Flare, respectively.

 

[Notty]

Really looking forward to testing Skymin on Shoddy, extended game clause or no.

That said, listening to the talk about 101 Subs + Leech Seed...Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, don't you want *small* Substitutes if you're planning on SubSeeding?

The amount of health you get back from Seed depends on what you're seeding, so if you have huge Substitutes, won't you deplete your HP with Subs faster than Leech Seed can restore it, unless you seed something like Blissey?

 

[Lee]

I don't see much worth in 101 subs here considering the most popular user of Seismic Toss will also be packing Ice Beam. 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe will probably be the preferred set for the SubSeeder.

 

[lilyhollow]

Really looking forward to testing Skymin on Shoddy, extended game clause or no.

That said, listening to the talk about 101 Subs + Leech Seed...Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, don't you want *small* Substitutes if you're planning on SubSeeding?

The amount of health you get back from Seed depends on what you're seeding, so if you have huge Substitutes, won't you deplete your HP with Subs faster than Leech Seed can restore it, unless you seed something like Blissey?

for some reason people think that Blissey's Seismic Tosses would otherwise be a threat to subseeding shaymin... >_>

 

[Kevin Garrett]

That said, listening to the talk about 101 Subs + Leech Seed...Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, don't you want *small* Substitutes if you're planning on SubSeeding?

The amount of health you get back from Seed depends on what you're seeding, so if you have huge Substitutes, won't you deplete your HP with Subs faster than Leech Seed can restore it, unless you seed something like Blissey?

I think people have Blissey in mind when they talk about 101 HP Subs. Since it can take two Seismic Tosses and still recover all of the health taken away by Substitute easily. However, Blissey wouldn't be a problem if the Substitute was less than 101 HP since it would still be recovered. The EVs can always be placed in either (or both) defense or you can have a larger investment in SpA.

 

[ANinyMouse]

To the people who keep talking like Skymin and the other forms are usable in-game only, you're forgetting Platinum-to-Platinum battles. THOSE are the only ones that should allow it at this point.

 

[c l e a r]

To the people who keep talking like Skymin and the other forms are usable in-game only, you're forgetting Platinum-to-Platinum battles. THOSE are the only ones that should allow it at this point.

Pokebeach and Serebii both experimented locally. They revert back.
A member on serebii said they revert back on wifi too, since now it is a wifi room, instead of a list much like the Union Room.

Now, I don't know how reliable the member is, but I don't see the reason why they would lie, if it were the other way around, it would be suspicious (Who would like for them NOT to change forms?)

Link to last page of Serebii's thread:
http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=336343&page=4

[/thread]

 

[gorm]

so cool no skymin or are we gonna use it anyways?

 

[IggyBot]

That is an interesting point Gorm brings up. I REALLY don't want to jump to conclusions here, but what happens if Nintendo (for SOME reason) never allows Sky Shaymin / Origin Giratina to be used on WiFi? Do we allow them because they are legal in game? Or do we ban them under the same reasons Arceus is banned for?

 

[Syberia]

To stay consistent, either it would have to be banned, or Arceus allowed.

 

[Not Scicky]

I'd ban them, as much as I like them :(

I'm hoping they aren't though, that would suck :S

 

[West]

As long as they have the same stats/types in Pt vs Pt Link Battles it should be okay.

 

[Odinwolf]

If they are never allowed for anything other than in-game battling, then I fail to see how they should be allowed on standard Shoddy ladders. They fall outside the realm of "simulating" a wifi metagame. Maybe we stick them in the extended game limbo, but that's the best I think we can really do for them.

 

[Jibaku]

I guarantee that they will allow them to be used in Platinum vs Platinum battles in some way. The scans don't just suddenly become fake. And it's extremely unlikely that they'd limit a cover Pokemon for in game use only.

@Clear...That only showed Platinum vs D/P though. It didn't show Platinum vs Platinum, which right now is on everyone's toes.

Has anyone tried reattaching the Platinum Orb / reusing the Glacidia Flower in the battle room? Maybe the game needed to scan for things like D/P before entering the room, which is why they came off.

 

[sanjay120]

This is obviously exaggerated but the same applies to skymin. It can't have sub/seed/hp fire,ice,ground,fighting/seed flare/air slash and growth all at the same time. It can also not hold yache, life orb, and specs at the same time either. That would be an uber poke. But since it can only run 4 moves with one item, it is wallable and revengable therefore not uber. Especially without playtesting!

I don't see anyone suggesting that, apart from the people who are like 'Sbustitute on attacking sets' because if you're trying to Sub with Life Orb you're screwed.