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Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - September 2009

Discussion in 'Pokémetrics' started by DougJustDoug, Oct 6, 2009.

  1. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Feb 17, 2006
    Aha. Time to finally release the OU and UU lists! :)


    Apr 26, 2006

    Also, aren't there going to be a few NU statistics from the CAP server this month? If so, we could be getting an NU list by January too, allowing for our 4th usage tier by the beginning of 2010 (even if we won't have a ladder for the new tier strait away)!
  3. Raikaria


    May 20, 2009
    Hmm, one must consdier, however, this, in terms of Scizor:

    Usually, the more used a pokemon is, the stronger it is in that metagame.

    If a pokemon starts to centralise the metagame, the question has to be asked: Is it broken?

    At this point, Scizor IS centralising. It's over 13% more used than the 2nd place spot. In addittion (How no-one commented on this is beyond me), 3 of the other twop 5 can take on CB Scizor. Gyarados sets up on Scizor anyday, Rotom only fears Persuit, Heatran only fears Superpower. All of these are also capable of outspeeding and beating Scizor. However, Scizor useage keeps rising.

    Another thing that indicates prossible brokeness is the fact that Scizor is number 7 in Ubers, higher than any non-Uber has ever been. If Ubers is a banlist for those pokemon too powerful for OU, how come Scizor is so used, over these 'Too powerful for OU' pokemon?

    I think, next round of suspect testing, Scizor should be at least considered if this trend keeps going. If you want, I think I'd be able to think up a good argument for why Scizor falls under both the Offensive Characterisic (Bullet Punch), and Support Characteristic (U-Turn, Persuit, Bullet Punch). Especially if Scizor breaks 40%, which isn't unlikly, considering as more people suceed withy Scizor, more people will use it.

    As for other stats:

    Porygon2 has fallen to NU, it seems. I blame Scizor, who Superpowers/Persuits Porygon2 to death.

    Alakazam and Rhyperior in UU makes me glad I don't play that metagame... Rhyperior entering as Roserade leaves will also not be good. Scarf Roserade was one of the possible counters for a Rock Polish Rhyperior... as it stands, almost nothing can stand up to it if it sets up, except the Priority everywhere. However, with most of it being physical, and Rhyperior's high defence and Solid Rock... I doubt even Azumariil will OHKO.

    I'm scared for NU. Bellyzard, Magmortar... defence will be even more impossible in NU now. Rocks will become more common to check Charizard.

    Purple Weezing, as I stated, Scizor is used a lot, despite other absurdly used pokemon countering/setting up on it. I was only saying that it is logical if we consider the possiblty that Scizor is broken. As is everyone else in this thread. We are not saying 'Scizor IS broken', we are saying 'Scizor MIGHT be broken'. Better to check, and be sure, than not check and risk having something broken in the metagame.

    And, not as a sweeper? How many games have not ended with Scizor BP'ing your whole team. And what about Swords Dance Scizor?
  4. PurpleWeezing


    May 21, 2008
    People don't seem to get that Scizor doesn't centralise - Scizor is the reaction on the absurdly high usage of Salamence, Latias, TTar and Gengar whom he all checks, while it still retains good support options with that strong U-Turn, easing Lucario sweeps and similar stuff. It's like saying that Registeel is too strong for UU - plain wrong. Now, for all of you, and if you don't get it, fucking write it on a sticky and put it onto your desktop (use a fat marker please):

    Scizor is not too good. It's not used as a sweeper. Scizor is the defensive backbone for many offensive teams, because it checks so much. It doesn't centralize, it's only a reaction to mons like Mence and Latias.

    Thanks for your attention. If anyone has a suggestion on how to improve my term, pm me lol

    Oh, on topic I can see a huge, huge rise in Qwilfish usage, as it's 5HKOed by Milo's Surf and meanwhile can set up Spikes, while it has great offensive coverage in Water + Poison + Boom...
  5. Scholst


    Jul 14, 2009
    Haha, Magikarp pwns Feebas YET AGAIN XD

    I'm so chuffed with this;Ludicolo is so underrated in Ubers, especially with all those Kyogre running around. He can LeechStall Teams to death, as they probably aren't repared for him :D

    Btw, thanks DJD!
  6. akarias


    Jun 3, 2009
    Let's just put it this way. What team have you made without sacrificing 4-5 pokes without scizor that didn'tt have a gengar, latias, blissey, ttar, flygon, or mence weakness? Now I"m not saying OU's going in the right direction but the incredible strength of all those pokes is exactly why scizor is so necessary.
  7. Witnessed


    Aug 15, 2009
    6 | Smeargle | 28640 | 3.72

    Damn, Smeargle is the sixth most popular lead. It's moving up pretty fast.

    85 | Aggron | 9144 | 1.19 | | 86

    And look at Aggron go!
  8. Deucalion2


    Feb 23, 2007
    Yes, I don't think Scizor is Uber. The difference between Garchomp and Scizor was that Garchomp was used directly as a result of his own power - he was used because he was incredibly powerful (that said, I'm one the Garchomp to OU thinkers, I don't think he was too powerful). Scizor is used as a result of everything else's power - he happens to counter a lot of major threats extremely well. It isn't directly correlated to his own strength.
  9. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

    Jun 14, 2007
    Glad to see that someone else is a fan of Spikes Qwilfish, though I personally prefer Taunt + Destiny Bond over all-out attacks. In addition to Milotic, it is more fun to set up Spikes on common SubPunchers, then take them out whilst they think they are safe behind their Sub, or end up poisoning themselves. Water / Poison typing is really, really good for resistances.
  10. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    May 7, 2006
    Thanks for the stats Doug.

    Now, I'd like to take a look at Aggron's usage in OU. HGSS moves have only been on the SU server for about 2 weeks, yet it seems that Aggron's usage has already tripled. That's a rather large jump; it's basically 2 weeks of usage giving him triple what he had in a whole month before.

    I made a graph of his usage for the entire 4th generation metagame, and it's rather interesting to see what 2 weeks with an upgrade can do:

    Basically, he's was fluctuating around the same spot for several months, but now that HGSS additions are here, he has over 9000 usages; it will be very interesting to see his usage for an entire month.

    Also, since a lot of people seem to be talking about Scizor's journey in OU, I decided to make a graph of his usage for the 4th generation metagame too:

    It is rather interesting to look back at how shitty Scizor used to be, and now to see the man that he's become. It seems that after December 2008, his usage stopped having any kind of plateau. Obviously the amount of battles rising would naturally raise his usage, as well as that of every other pokemon. However, it seems like there are still months where he has enormous rises in usage. For instance, look at Jun-09 to Jul-09. There was a raise of almost 40000 there! Unfortunately, I couldn't take the percentage stats, because the old stats on shoddybattle.com didn't have them. But the usages should at least give a clear picture on Scizor's journey from zero to hero.
  11. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
    is an Artist Alumnus

    Jul 2, 2007
    Just because Scizor usage is high this doesn't mean that he is too strong for the metagame. As a lot people said, Scizor is an excellent check for common offensive threats in OU like Salamence, Latias, Gengar, etc.

    Sword Dance Scizor isn't as good as SD Lucario or SD Infernape. Steel isn't a good attaking type and Scizor's low speed prevent him from sweeping teams.
  12. mtr


    Jan 31, 2009
    | 5 | Swampert | 30631 | 3.97 |

    Oof, the swamp thing seems to be taking hits in terms of his popularity as a lead.

    It's pretty funny that Bullet Punch is the reason Scizor because popular, but now Bullet Punch is rarely used on Scizor relative to the horrific U-turn.
  13. Aminar


    Oct 4, 2009
    Bullet punch is always there, and it's still the reason people use him. Uturn just happens to be tactically superior because Scizor will force a switch most of the time.


    Apr 26, 2006
    But one month, Blissey was the 3rd most used in Ubers, and she clearly does not need to be banned!
  15. Instynct


    May 31, 2009
    I think it is an interesting prospect of 'freezing' the UU metagame for a period of time as it seems rather unsettled. Just as a new threat emerges, even more threats come down from OU to rock the tier and the metagame has no real time to stabalise. I personally think it is good that UU constantly has more and more threats coming down from OU and plenty of changes to the metagame but if the metagame becomes tooo unstable then pokemon that come down from OU could be considered being put in to BL for a time and then after a few months all the pokemon in BL who haven't been tested in UU yet get put in to UU so that there are less changes to the UU metagame. This also allows us to be sure of a pokemon's position before it is unnecessarily brought down to UU. For example if Alakazam received a lot of usage over these three months and was voted back OU then there was only a three month period where it was in UU for creating two further changes which need not have happened if its place was evaluated over a longer period of time thus allowing the metagame to remain more stable.


    Apr 26, 2006
    Once we get further with the testing, and now that we've seen what is probably the last set of major changes to DPP battling with the new moves from HGSS, we probably won't be seeing such large fluctuations in UU in a years time.
  17. mtr


    Jan 31, 2009
    If you know someone with PR acess, this idea would best be submitted to them. Stabilizing the metagame can help in giving the players a better idea of what threats are broken (BL) and what threats are merely good (UU) in cases that are not as clear cut as Froslass, something that can be difficult to analyze with the constant metagame shifts. Roserade was incredibly popular in UU, and I expect that teams will be reeling from this change.

    As for me, I'm still dreaming about the day Ninjask will be in UU.


    Apr 26, 2006
    I remember that some people were saying that allowing NFEs in lower tiers would cause 'OU-lite'-edness, but, this is obviously not the case in some examples. Hippopotas uses very different strategies to Hippowdon, as you can see below:

    | Hippopotas | Move         | Stealth Rock     |    98.9 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Earthquake       |    56.2 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Yawn             |    51.2 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Toxic            |    42.2 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Roar             |    40.3 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Protect          |    36.0 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Slack Off        |    34.7 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Crunch           |    17.2 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Body Slam        |    10.9 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Rock Slide       |     7.1 |
    | Hippopotas | Move         | Superpower       |     2.8 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Earthquake       |    93.1 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Slack Off        |    91.1 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Stealth Rock     |    71.3 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Roar             |    58.4 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Ice Fang         |    23.4 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Stone Edge       |    12.9 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Stockpile        |    12.7 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Toxic            |     8.7 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Crunch           |     6.2 |
    | Hippowdon  | Move         | Yawn             |     5.2 |
    Firstly, pretty much every Hippopotas uses Stealth Rock in UU, whilst only about 3-quarters of Hippowdon use Stealth Rock. Also, note that moves such as Toxic and Yawn are used on most Hippopotas, whilst they're rarely seen on a Hippowdon. Also, don't expect to ever see a Hippopotas in UU with Ice Fang or Stone Edge, and likewize, don't expect to ever see a Hippowdon in OU with Protect.

    Considering the two Pokemon are so similar, they're used quite differently, which I find interesting. The reason why is obvious, but I thought I'd point out that NFEs won't neccessarily function the same as their evolutions in lower tiers, even though they share so many similarities.
  19. imperfectluck

    is a Past WCoP Championwon the 4th Official Smogon Tournament

    Mar 18, 2005
    Disappointed in this.

    Also, Hippopotas and Hippowdon are still doing mostly the same stuff... EQ, Stealth Rock, sand. People are just choosing to use Hippopotas like it's a suicide lead sometimes which is quite a poor usage of it, at least imo.
  20. mtr


    Jan 31, 2009
    Sciz in 7th and Forry ahead of Garchomp in terms of Ubers usage? Suddenly, I can see why random HP Fires and Flamethrowers are becoming very attractive in Ubers.
  21. Nachos

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 16, 2007
    Scizor is easy to fit into teams, doesn't make it uber..

    Speaking of Scizor, it's surprising to see Gengar at 11th. I haven't seen many since Hypnosis' accuracy dropped from 70% to 60%. Plus Choice Scarf versions are easily revenge killed now..

    Finally, it confuses me every month to see Physical Electivire as the most used set. The mixed set is actually pretty good, fully physical, not so much.
  22. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
    is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 29, 2004
    It has a ridiculously powerful priority move, one that can 2HKO a majority of pokemon. The fact that Scizor isn't even subject to Speed woes, the way Garchomp or even the DD users are, is an even greater advantage in the realm of sweeping. What about its utility as a scout via U-Turn? Its defensive prowess? (Scizor won't tank like Gyarados or Tyranitar but it's acceptably sturdy, is Steel typed, and learns Roost.) Those are great strengths! The fact Scizor just so happens to counter many other major threats is also a strength even if it's metagame-dependent.

    While Garchomp (and even others) has seen higher total usage percentages, Scizor has a higher usage relative to its peers than Garchomp ever had. Scizor is #1 by more than 50% over its closest competitor, which is pretty amazing, so it's actually quite a bit "more uber" than anything else we've ever seen viewed from this slightly different perception. However, some less intelligent people need to get over their incorrect thoughts that usage is in any way relevant to determining how "uber" a pokémon is. :pirate: It's merely interesting information.

    Both Hippopotas and Hippowdon are physically defensive pokemon used primarily for their Sand Stream. The only reason Hippopotas sees more usage of passive damage and status moves is because Hippopotas can't support direct attacking moves the way Hippowdon can with its much high base Attack. Protect is mostly a support move designed to aid Toxic or Yawn but it could also be because Hippopotas lacks Hippowdon's Defense/HP (though it is still good) and isn't as capable of out-healing incoming damage via Slack Off.

    You'd also see similar "phenomena" with something like Dusclops or Magneton. Dusclops is the same as Dusknoir, it just lacks the base Attack to support elemental punches and whatnot, and Magneton is functionally identical to Magnezone. NFE pokémon only tend to significantly differ in usage from their fully-evolved forms when they actually do change significantly. e.g. Scyther, who is a different type to Scizor and much faster. These are pokémon who already tend to be listed separately from their evolution in the site's tier lists.

    I lol'd.
  23. Havak

    Havak I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 18, 2005
    Cheers for this Doug, was really looking forward to seeing this set of stats. The Scizor increase is actually quite surprising.. Didn't expect it to rise so much!
  24. KnightoftheWind

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Feb 6, 2009
    Scizor is very useful and easy to fit on most teams. That's why it has high usage, it isn't because its overpowered. You see, quite a lot of Pokemon counter Scizor nicely. OK, rolecall, Rotom-A, Zapdos, Gyarados, Heatran, Magnezone, you see? Scizor can be countered. Thinking that something that is used alot automatically means it's Uber is very naive.
  25. cmurph


    Jun 11, 2009
    I can see why, dragon attacks are everywhere in ubers. They're far more common than they are even in ou. Also, with Deoxys-e able to set-up at least 2 layers of entry hazards against any lead that isn't designed specifically to beat it, having a spinner is really helpful for a lot of teams, and forry faces no competition as far as spinning goes

    edit: and at the guy implying that scizor is good at sweeping teams: at least half of ou resists bullet punch, scizor is not a great sweeper even with bullet punch

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