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Discussion in 'Smogon Metagames' started by Antar, Feb 4, 2016.
Florges is one of the best Pokemon in UU. Sylveon is basically a straight upgrade of Florges.
How is Sylveon an upgrade over Florges? It passes bigger wishes, but if that's all I wanted why wouldn't I just use Vaporeon? It hits a bit harder with Hyper Voice, but it's also a lot slower. It would be stuck between a rock and hard place.
It's not "a lot slower". In fact, there is no relevant Pokémon that uninvested Florges would outspeed and beat but uninvested Sylveon would not. The obvious reason for not using Vaporeon(or rather, Alomomola since Vaporeon is garbage) if I want bigger wishes is that Alomomola isn't a Fairy type.
Florges might stay somewhat relevant since it's still the superior Calm Minder thanks to Synthesis.
Florges dropping would be great for it--it'll still have Gardevoir breathing down its neck, in a manner of speaking, but it has a superior defensive typing and Specs Hyper Voice hits like a mean mother. Not to mention it doesn't have to worry about competing with Clefable, which outclasses it in every way possible. (Even offensively--Clef's offensive tank set can use a Life Orb without penalty and has an incredible movepool to work with. It's just that that set isn't Clef's best set by a mile.)
Cleric Sylveon would be a superior Cleric Florges in UU in practically every way, outright to the point where Sylveon's cleric set will almost completely invalidate Florges in UU.
This was a hotly debated topic back in OU two years ago as to my knowledge, but basically, Sylveon's cleric set is a completely superior version of cleric Florges. In fact, Florges has nothing over Sylveon in terms of being a cleric, and Sylveon is superior in every aspect.
Sylveon passes bigger wishes than Florges, and that is a huge deal. You can't say "if I want bigger Wishes then I'd use Alomomola" or something, since Sylveon replaces Florges as a Fairy-type cleric, not just as a general cleric. Sylveon has the Fairy-typing, which gives it the advantage over popular threats such as Salamence and Hydreigon, just like Florges does now. Sylveon passing bigger Wishes makes it a vastly superior cleric to Florges, meaning it takes over as a Fairy-type on most teams as it can heal more HP to teammates than Florges can, which can make a big difference in some matches. By using Florges over Sylveon, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage since you pass smaller wishes and it's overall worse as the Fairy-type on a team.
Sylveon's bigger wishes are what make it much better as a cleric than Florges, but it also has similar bulk to Florges, which further invalidates Florges's use as a cleric due to Sylveon's potential existence. Let's look at the calcs, first in physical bulk:
252 Atk Earth Plate Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Earth Plate Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 168-198 (46.6 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, Sylveon is slightly bulkier than Florges and since it passes bigger wishes, Sylveon has a complete advantage. It takes hits just as well as Florges does and passes bigger Wishes, all the while performing Florges's role as a defensive Fairy-type on teams. The same applies to the special side:
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 134-160 (34 - 40.6%) -- 44.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 117-138 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 2.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Okay, Sylveon takes the hits slightly worse than Florges does on the special side, but since it's only a 2% difference, the difference in damage on the special side is frankly negligible. They get 3HKOed and 2HKOed by the same things, and they take similar damage on both the physical and special ends of attacks, and Sylveon passes larger Wishes, which thereby invalidates Florges as a Fairy-type defensive support Pokemon. There's also the fact that Sylveon hits harder than Florges, which can make a difference in taking down Pokemon.
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 109-129 (32 - 37.9%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 132-156 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Here, Sylveon's Hyper Voice clearly outdamages Florges's Moonblast. Even the minimum damage output of Sylveon's Hyper Voice is stronger than the maximum damage output that Florges's Moonblast can muster, which makes it more capable of dealing damage. This calc here might not seem like much, but it matters when you count in Stealth Rock, which is usually (and should be) on the field in most matches. Sylveon's Hyper Voice also has the luxury of circumventing Substitute, which is extremely useful to ensure a defensive Pokemon like Sylveon isn't as easy of setup fodder as other defensive mons.
You cannot use Speed as much of an argument to Sylveon vs. Florges since Speed is extremely irrelevant to both Pokemon due to the specific way in which they play. They are both defensive Pokemon and won't invest into speed very much anyways, and focus on HP. Florges doesn't outspeed anything that Sylveon doesn't in the UU metagame except for like Umbreon and Chesnaught, both of which pose zero threat to Sylveon in the first place.
So basically, Sylveon is a complete upgrade over Florges since it does everything Florges does, but better. It passes bigger Wishes and hits harder: those two things are enough to make Sylveon flat out superior to Florges. Compared to Sylveon, Florges is weaker, is not quite as bulky, is a worse cleric than Sylveon since it passes smaller Wishes, and though it is faster, that is irrelevant and will never matter due to the specific way in which they play.
To sum it all up, Sylveon is not only an upgrade over Florges, but it outright invalidates Florges as a cleric. Due to the reasons I stated above, Cleric Florges, assuming Sylveon ends up in UU, will become completely outclassed, and there will be absolutely zero reason to use Florges as a cleric if Sylveon falls to UU. Considering Florges is very popular as a cleric right now, Sylveon would be a very popular option on the kinds of teams that use Florges (which is frankly a lot of them, meaning Sylveon will be both common and good).
Specs Sylveon would be decent as well, since Specs Hyper Voice hits crazy hard, and Sylveon can afford to invest in bulk and dry Baton Pass. Gardevoir would be competition for it, but Gardevoir is insanely frail and is kind of easy to revenge kill. Sylveon would have the advantage by being a bulkier alternative that also hits hard but also has dry Baton Pass, and checks Salamence and Hydreigon slightly more effectively (Hydreigon especially since Sylv actually resists Dark Pulse).
I won't say anything about CM Florges though since that might keep it relevant to a degree, but likely not enough to keep Florges in UU (it'll probably fall to RU if Sylv drops, though it would be good there since offensive Florges would actually be plausible there).
Tbh, Sylveon will be a better Special Attacker then a Cleric, but OK...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 366-432 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 247-292 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 210-247 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 218-258 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 258-304 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 232 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 172-204 (48.4 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Basically, nothing can be safe Switching-In... But, it's low base speed will turn it onto a frail Pokémon, let's see how the Metagame will react if it drops, I personally think that 252 / 252+ Florges and Swampert will be more common.
I feel bad for Gastrodon possibly going to NU, since it's viable in OU and decent in UU. I'd like to see it get saved from dropping by it rising or maintaining RU status, but if it does drop in the next update, oh well.
Also since it's on the table, I think Sylveon could form an interesting dual-Fairy offensive core with Gardevoir or Slurpuff (maybe TR Diancie) if it will drop to UU, working similarly to the typical double-Dragon core.
I don't know, how about reasons like this, this, this, and this? The fact that you bring up literally the most outclassed Water-type, much less Wish passer, in UU as competition for a Pokemon that is capable of overshadowing Florges (one of the premier mons in the tier) is just utterly baffling.
0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 142-168 (54.4 - 64.3%)
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 207-244 (79.3 - 93.4%)
I mean if you want to compare damage output, nearly a 50% damage difference is a good chunk more than what I would consider 'a bit'; the power difference between Sylveon and Vaporeon is also much greater than the Speed difference you exaggerated here (60 vs 65). Also why are you even complaining about Sylveon's Speed when Vaporeon doesn't outspeed anything which Sylveon doesn't bar vs Chesnaught, and guess who has the advantage in that matchup?
I'd suggest you should lurk / carefully research the forums of the respective meta before you make your statements, because while asking questions is fine, uttering completely incorrect facts only serves to demean your argument.
People seem to forget that while Sylveon completely invalidates Florges as a cleric, Florges remains the better Calm Mind user because it has Synthesis. Calm Mind Florges is still an excellent set in its own right, and because Sylveon doesn't have any turn 1 heal moves other than Rest, it is forced to run Wish + Protect, (or RestTalk I guess,) which gives it 1 less moveslot to do the same job. This means that even after Sylveon drops, Florges will still have a niche in UU, though a much smaller one than before.
| 52 | Sylveon | 3.182% |
| 53 | Conkeldurr | 3.177% |
| 54 | Altaria-Mega | 3.168% |
MAKE THIS HAPPEN BOIS, GIVE THEM TO UU
Sylveon and Conk maybe, but Mega Altaria - oh hell no! That thing's combo of great power, bulk and typing would be too much for the tier. I don't think it would have any reliable counters.
No thanks, Conkeldurr and Mega Altaria are actually decent in OU.
And Mega Altaria was banned from UU when it was in it, so...............
Conkeldurr should drop, as it's actually pretty bad in OU
This is just a proof of how cancerous the ladders are getting sometimes... I dunno how a poké that was considered a while ago, one of the most dangerous on the tier, is now without enough usage to be a real OU member... And then Typ, Cinc and Ambi are still RU... BTW... Now PU ladder is totally Crustle infested... I guess the new toy syndrome is real xD
It counters Bisharp, it laughs at De Blob, it has an incredibly powerful priority move that hits a lot of the metagame hard, it's hard to switch into. It's good in OU.
Its slow, easily revenge-killed, and weak to a lot of common metagame threats such as Talon, Hoopa, and Gard.
You know what also does this? Infernape, which is a lot more versatile and less exploitable than Conk is as well. So yeah, don't sing this mon's high praises too much.
If I remember correctly Mega Altaria was banned from UU early in ORAS due to it being far too powerful as a Fairy-type in the UU metagame. It's still technically banned from UU and if it drops out of OU usage it won't become legal in UU unless UU specifically retests it into the tier (though considering how stupid it was in early ORAS UU, I don't think that will ever happen). BL status is never changed by a Pokemon in the banlist rising to a higher tier: if a Pokemon that was in a BL rises to the tier above but drops back down, it will be reverted back to the banlist unless the tier in question decides to free it.
I haven't played in a long time, so I'm gonna need some clarification here.
How in the holy name of Bob Saget does mega Altaria, who by the way is consistently ranked in A+ in OU, have almost cutoff level of usage?!
It's actually A- Ranked atm, and people have been discussing the possibility of dropping it to B+. The meta has developed in such a way that it has become really hostile to Mega Altaria; it's become increasingly tougher for MAlt to pull off whatever it wants to do these days (be it sweeping, tanking, supporting) as a lot of teams have become conditioned to it.
Because I have nothing else to do right now, I'm going to predict next month:
Cradily: NU --> PU
Exeggutor: BL4 --> NU
Garchomp-Mega: (OU) --> OU
Gastrodon: RU --> NU
Gurdurr: RU --> NU
Infernape: UU --> OU
Latias-Mega: (OU) --> OU
Medicham-Mega: OU --> UU
Piloswine: NU --> PU
Rotom-Frost: PU --> NU
Sableye: UU --> RU
Terrakion: BL --> OU
Indented means quickban.
Hey can we please stop the constant circlejerking in this thread? I think that everyone knows that X mon is bad in y tier and your constant complaining does nothing about it. Like for the most part it isn't even the players of the tier that would be receiving the mon(s) rather the tier that would be giving them up which is even more frustrating considering you gain literally nothing, but that's besides the point. This thread should be used to talk about metagame trends not bitch about how a mon is used too much. Literally all this thread is with the circlejerking is a thread where you can fish for likes, like hurr durr typhlosion, cincinno, and ambipom are trash in ru don't use pls, here have 7 likes, it's absurd that posts like this even exist to be quite frank. I feel like this thread needs to be more heavily moderated so that this thread can be a civil discussion of metagame trends. Not trying to minimod or call out the mods or anything of that sort, as they shouldn't have to deal with this, it's just that I am more than annoyed (and assume I'm not the only one) that all this thread has become is 95% shitposts and 5% actual quality discussion.
Tl;dr it's not too long for you to not read it but if you really feel that way stop the circlejerk.
What? Yama is great in NU right now and there's no way it's dropping same with sableye in UU