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Gen 2 Something that works. Maybe. Haven't tried.

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Borat, Jun 16, 2010.

  1. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
    is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,507
    It's difficult to say my team is all that outdated. The fact I've actually changed some things for the first time in years, not significantly but I've altered movesets, says something to the fact that some changes were required. That said, it's not like the metagame has changed all that much since Advance generation released. The only notable changes are that Pursuit and Rapid Spin are actually used now, no doubt a carry-over from new-age players, but that doesn't require any significant adjustments for which to accomodate. All it really means is that I have to tread a little more carefully around T-Tar. :/

    Umbreon yeah, it's a do-nothing. Oh, it Charms shit. Oh, it can get off a Mean Look-BP 5% of the time if I use Zap Cannon on it... but then I can't even use Charm to stuff set-up pokémon, which is the only consistent use it has. I'm glad we agree here but your like and dislike for some of these do-nothings confuses me. :P

    Besides, VIL wasn't even using Skarmory. (Forretress, yo! Who uses Spikes and Rapid Spin AKA is much more useful than Skarm overall.) I'm not going to further elaborate on the situation but it was good play and a little luck on his part. Oh well, you can't win 'em all. "Skarmbliss," or Blissey in general, doesn't tend to be a problem. My only team member who is completely unable to break it is... my own Blissey. Well, whoop-de-doo. :happybrain: It's not like Miltank is any more able to break them either but who cares about beating "bad" pokémon anyway? ;/

    Now Dragonite... there's a legitimately bad pokémon. It's not that great of a mixed attacker because it doesn't have a strong STAB move to use in the first place. Nidoking isn't all that dangerous even with its STAB Earthquake, which is a lot more scary than anything Dragonite can muster, and it saw absolutely no use until NYPC gave it Lovely Kiss. Dragonite isn't worth using and nobody uses it either. Stop mentioning it. Don't suggest that I use it. Don't suggest that anyone else use it either.

    With regard to your silly impromptu team there... Stop trolling, yo. :(

    Marowak Fire Blast does only ~47% to Skarmory on average (no chance to 2HKO) and OHKOs Forretress less than 30% of the time (factoring in accuracy). Why would I ever want that over Swords Dance? And what's with having Rhydon on the same team? Redundancy breeds unnecessary weakness.

    Zap Cannon can stick to Forretress and Umbreon, who otherwise have no offense anyway and just want plain maximize their chances to paralyze. Why not use Body Slam instead on Rhydon? Strangely, you did do that with Dragonite, who also learns Zap Cannon (and T-Wave!) and even has much higher Special Attack. Dragonite also still sucks and man does this team get swept by Starmie.

    Snorlax maybe, Marowak not so much. It loses when it switches into Swords Dance, the only bonus is that it can't get smacked by Earthquake switching in like Suicune. I'd still rather have the Water-types because they can kill it from much higher health, where chipping down Marowak is fairly easy due to its fragility (read: lack of Leftovers) and threatening to kill it is typically more effective than trying to stall it.

    Of course, one might argue that being the best answer to [most] Snorlax is good enough to be worth using... Maybe. I'd rather just use the second tier of answers, stuff like Gengar and Tyranitar, who actually do other things.

    Just to hit the other line as well (and expand on my previous statement), Marowak beats Skarmory if it Swords Dances as Skarm switches in. Trying to Whirlwind there just opens you up to death by flinch while dealing no damage to Marowak even if you succeed. Any player will take that no-risk chance all day until they get the crit/flinch necessary to kill or force Rest and catch it sleeping next time. Even in a straight 1v1 scenario, which is silly to discuss because that's not how Pokémon is played anyway, Marowak's got about a 50/50 shot because Drill Peck 5HKOs on average and Marowak can 4HKO.

    Well yeah, it matters if I don't have a pseudohazer on my team... As I've said, I don't want do-nothings on my team and all the best pure phazers don't do anything else.
  2. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    766
    Pursuit and Rapid Spin has been used for a while now. Probably the past... 6-7 years. What exactly is "new"?

    Gengar won't be breaking skarmbliss, skarmbliss doesn't switch into it. Zapdos might break Blissey if it gets lucky enough. Zam doesn't do anything. Cloyster doesn't do anything. Marowak has a very small chance of breaking Skarmory on its own.

    Dragonite use to suck. Now it doesn.t DE/HP Flying/BS along with DP should be all the physical attacks it needs to get through any common team. Get with the times man. What exactly does your team switch into it anyway? Nidoking needs luck just to beat Zapdos. And with sleep being redudant, there's no point there.

    Because SD isn't as awesome. Skarmory isn't going to exchange hits with Marowak regardless, it's just quicker. Rhydon is hardly redundant, in fact, the point is to see similar switches. Rhydon can para Suicune/Skarm with ZC, letting Marowak run wild on the other two. However, FB was the original selection (beta ver. if you will), before the team became so para oriented. So perhaps SD might be the better choice now.

    Hell, you could even consider running Curse/Explosion Steelix just to see the same fucking switch again, and you might be even more successful. A +1 Explosion OHKO suicune, and a +6 OHKOs Skarm.

    Body Slam has a 30% chance, ZC has a 50% chance. BS isn't going to hit Starmie/Skarmory/Suicune with relevant damage anyway. I'd use thunderwave if given the chance. Paralysis ruins the three, and they don't have the time to rest damage against a team like this.

    Snorlax buys enough time with Suicune/Starmie, and it's not like Starmie switches into anything. And honestly, with this team, you pretty much don't have a choice but to hit shit hard. And that leaves very little room for error. Sounds like you haven't tried it.

    Quit being so inflexible and 2003. Be creative. A Zapdos without Thunderbolt/Thunder might be perfectly fine depending on the team, a Snorlax can work without Return/DE/BS. Many players assume these two to have those moves, and that alone could save you a slot and give you an extra slot to work with, before your opponent realizes you can't actually KO starmie with Zapdos. Obviously you don't do this on stall teams, but if your team is offensive, why the hell not?

    Any player will take that chance, but it doesn't change the fact that you're still relying on luck. Refer to my other thread. And it's a pretty hopeless scenario against Curse skarm, especially with HB backing. Nothing else in your team forces Skarmory to switch in, meaning Skarmory can focus all of its attention on Marowak.

    And it still stands, your team doesn't do too well against a Bob/ViL-esque team. Or the aforementioned team.

    EDIT: You see common walls as a bad thing, but in reality, the team was constructed with similar "walls" in mind. As aforementioned, by FAR the most common way a pokemon dies in GSC (if it's a skilled battle) is through CH/secondary effect. There's a much better chance of it when I have 3-4 Pokemon all targetting that lone wall, and honestly, all it takes it one wall going down before the rest of the team crumbles with it. That's how GSC teams are built. You're much less effective with the "hit anything and everything" idea. In your case, if your opponent runs a spinner, you're heavily reliant on Marowak to break your opponent's team. On the flip side, your team relies on craftiness against any offensive threat. In long, drawn out battles, you'll get the short end of the stick more times than not. Against stupidly quick teams (above), you just don't have the speed to hang.

    If you feel Blissey is a GSC threat, good for you. There's no convincing you otherwise. And if you think Alakazam will be netting the same results if you couldn't reliably lay down spikes, ok. If you don't think Egg will probably perform as well/better than Zam on your team, that's fine too. It's nice to be ignorant and all, but I really don't think this discussion needs to go on further anymore if that's the case.
  3. Veteran In Love

    Veteran In Love
    is a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 3 Champion

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2004
    Messages:
    632
    cliffs?

    i tried to read this and give input but extensive theorymon in the form of long paragraphs are simply unreadable =/

    anyway regarding the OP I just wanted to say the team idea looks good on paper and in theory, but in real practice Snorlax with one max STAB move just isn't enough offense to win a game by itself (threat of Explosion + Steels and Rocks w/o Curse + lax being on its own and getting hit/statused every switchin) and it's quite hard when you factor in that HP Bug Forretress gives this template trouble.

    I actually tried to utilize this idea with the same guys way way back. In actual testing I would find myself quagmired (and bored) against highly defensive teams, and most explosion teams beat up Snorlax pretty bad enough as it is. The fact that this is a slow, defensive squad doesn't bode well when your opponent figures out Snorlax is the only real threat.
  4. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
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    It's about Zam, Blissey sucking [except against mediocre teams]. Blissey isn't walling any team with >2005 offense. And Zam isn't switching to anything that attacks (special attacks notwithstanding, given poor HP/0 resistances). If he can, you probably could've gone to something better anyway.

    Egg doesn't need Giga Drain. In fact, it's pretty low on the hierarchy of useful moves it learns. Stun Spore is not.

    The team doesn't work. Hence there's a round 2 going a completely different direction:

    Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Flying]
    - Rock Slide

    Rhydon (M) @ Leftovers
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Substitute
    - Zap Cannon

    Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
    - Body Slam
    - Dynamicpunch
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder

    Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
    - Cross Chop
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Rock Slide

    Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
    - Curse
    - Double-Edge
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Rest

    Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
    - Crunch
    - Dynamicpunch
    - Pursuit
    - Thunderbolt

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