Metagame STABmons

I think it's a matter of absolute policy versus absolute balance.

If you respect policy over balance, Pidgeotite should be banned because it's the simplest and most cohesive path. Sing is a bad move with one good user, so banning Sing would be foolish.

If you respect balance over policy, Sing should be banned because it creates the least collateral damage. Pidgeot is a cool and balanced 'mon with one busted move, so banning Pidgeotite would be foolish.

Both viewpoints have merit, but I'd say the former argument falls in line with Smogon at large while the latter falls in line with the Other Metas community specifically.
 
After ~300 games, I'd like to make a few VR noms, since the VR obviously needs to be fleshed out a bit. I think that the whole thing needs to be stretched out a bit, but that's a harder problem than just adding to it and shifting a few things.

Additions:
Terrakion: unranked -> A-
+2 Z-Diamond Storm OHKO's almost everything that doesn't resist after rocks, including Tangrowth, Skarmory, Landorus-T, Celesteela, Slowbro, Toxapex, and Mega Venusaur. +2 Mach Punch/Accelerock is also pretty OK at cleaning.
Meloetta: unranked -> B+
Specs 2hko's everything bar Magearna and Mega Scizor. Scarf is a pretty good alternative to PGonZ since it puts pressure on Chansey and can pivot with U-Turn. SpD might be good, but I've never seen it ever.
Yanmega: unranked -> B
It does the same thing it's always done. There are a few new checks to it, but it's still potent if left unchecked.
Sableye-Mega: unranked -> B+
Stall isn't very good, but this definitely has a strong niche there. I've seen a few hard stall teams, and this definitely made life hell for all of my walls/utility pokemon.
Slowbro-Mega: unranked -> B
It's pretty hard to sweep with this thing in a Koko/Grass metagame, but it's still the strongest check to fakespeed in existence.
Skarmory: unranked -> B
While Celesteela has better mixed bulk and offenses, this has more physical bulk, spikes, and SR.
/
Umbreon/Mandibuzz: unranked -> B-/C+?
Someone was going on about these, but didn't want to nom them. They pretty much do the same thing: Parting Shot/Foul Play/[recovery]/[hazard clearing]. Umbreon has more support options than Mandi and more overall bulk, but Mandi has more Physical bulk and can use the weakest Beak Blast ever. Z-Parting shot makes them much better than last gen.

Moves:
Thundurus: A+ -> A
Tapu Koko really overshadows this thing
Tangrowth: A -> A+
Regenerator and non-mega give this significant niches over Venusaur. Pure grass also lets it check ground types, like non-SD Diggersby, Zygarde, and Garchomp much more easily. It's also a much safer Koko switchin, since it only takes about 50 from BB, which it can pivot out and heal. AV is pretty good too, but I think the physical set is significantly better.
Heatran: A -> A-
The current metagame and powercreep were pretty unfriendly to Heatran. After playing a few hundred games, I haven't seen it put in nearly as much work as the other A ranked threats. The most potent sets I've seen are Magma Trapper, Z-Solarbeam, and SpD, which both have significant issues. Magma Storm sets struggle to do much in such an offensive metagame, and most switchins that aren't like Chansey can threaten to 2hko it. Z-Solarbeam can't break through things like Zard, Zygarde, Rotom-H, Chansey, SpD Venusaur, Garchomp, and several water types that aren't weak to grass. SpD is destined to get chipped to death in all the games I've seen it in.
Chansey: A- -> A
Chansey's bulk and utility are pretty much unparalleled. It has obvious issues, namely sub, taunt, and chip. But I've seen a significant rise in Whirlwind sets, which punish sub and are potent when paired with spikestack support.
Ursaring: A- -> B
Guts is a fine niche, but it loses to most beak blasters in the first place and is otherwise outclassed by Diggersby.
Tapu Bulu: A- -> B
Pretty much every pokemon that checks this got massively better, and it got spore. Grass is an abysmal offensive typing in this metagame, which is dominated by 4x resists like Celesteela, Mega Venusaur, Zard, and Ferrothorn.
Slowking: A- -> B+
It has way worse typing this gen than it did last gen. The only special attackers that it confidently walls are Magearna, Keldeo, Sylveon, and Heatran. Greninja, Hoopa, Pidgeot, Rotom, and Araquanid give it significant issues.
Toxapex: B+ -> A
It has really, really good typing. It's one of the most reliable pre-mega Charizard switchins, alongside SpD Gyarados. It counters non-LK Lopunny, every Scizor, Araquanid, Celesteela, Sylveon, Buzzwole, Bewear, Keldeo, Tapu Fini, and is a hard check to Greninja, Magearna, Heatran, Mimikyu, TTar, Silvally, and many other pokemon. It's issues are that it's passive, and haze relies on PP stalling, which is prone to getting haxed out.

There are a bunch of pokemon, like Mega Alakazam, Amoonguss, M-Blastoise, Quagsire, Clefable, Diancie, Chandelure, Salamence, Scolipede, Latios, Nido, Torn-T, Volcarona, Zapdos, Jirachi, Jolteon, Kingdra, Weavile, and Manaphy that I couldn't really decide on, but might be worth VR'ing too. I think most of these pokemon could populate the B to C rankings, but I've already nominated a bunch of things, and I'd appreciate someone else's input on these.
 
The Ruins of Alpha – I have to disagree with you on one thing:



I feel as if stopping discussion because the council hasn't posted yet isn't a fair thing to do. Yes, it was just voted on. However, people can disagree with that decision, as evidenced by Dream Eater Gengar's post. People should be allowed to have that discussion and bring up valid points. Perhaps that can persuade the council into re-suspecting it, or just outright banning it. You never know. I think that discussion should be open and encouraged at all times, even if it was just suspected.

Anyways, onto the discussion at hand.

LordHelix – Here is my response to your points:
  1. Landorus-T: Tapu Koko straight up drops it with Hidden Power Ice, and it's a completely common and viable set. It can't take a Play Rough into a Hidden Power Ice. Landorus-T is only a check to Tapu Koko when it wields a Choice Scarf and plays incredibly well. Or it just drops.
  2. Silvally-Ground: Nobody uses this because other Silvally forms, such as Water or Flying, are simply better. However, it's not fair to use that calculation when Play Rough 2HKOes it when Tapu Koko runs Choice Band or with nearly any previous damage.
  3. FakeSpeed: Well... yeah. Offensive Pokemon are checked by FakeSpeed. That doesn't help prove something isn't broken when no FakeSpeeders actually switch into Tapu Koko, as all relevant ones are OHKOed, or 2HKOed if anything. None like to switch in. You have to play around, pivot, and safely get them in. FakeSpeed is great on paper, but harder to execute in practice. Don't think it holds weight in this specific argument.
  4. Choice Scarf: Tapu Koko often runs Choice Scarf as well. You have to scout, and your Choice Scarf Pokemon may not be able to hold its own, considering Choice Scarf off of 130 Speed is insanely fast.
  5. Sticky Web: Stops Greninja as well. And other offensive threats. But it's not really a strong point, considering the multitude of ways to remove entry hazards; Defog from Celesteela, Landorus-T, Latios, Tapu Fini or Rapid Spin from Lopunny-Mega, Sylveon, Silvally-Water, Chansey, Snorlax, any Normal-type really, Azumarill. There are so many more ways to remove entry hazards in STABmons, moreso than any other metagame, so Sticky Web is a really poor argument.
  6. Eject Button + Dugtrio: If you're using this specifically to check Tapu Koko, you should realize that this is an over-centralizing threat and that it's a problem. Something so specific to check a single Pokemon is not healthy.
The Ruins of Alpha summarized this as well, but I'll chip in with my opinion.

Here's my summary on Tapu Koko:
  • Tapu Koko is checked by Landorus-T, faster offensive threats, and bulky Grass-types such as Venusaur-Mega and Ferrothorn in particular.
  • Tapu Koko is best used with offensive Pokemon that handle these, such as Magnezone for Ferrothorn, Landorus-T for other Landorus-T and most other Grass-types, Greninja-Ash to break down checks of each others [Grass-types], and entry hazards of its own, such as Stealth Rock from Landorus-T.
  • Landorus-T is, in my opinion, the best partner and check to Tapu Koko. Beating other Tapu Koko if it can is great, and eliminating Grass-types is excellent. Magnezone is a close second, since it benefits from having Electric Terrain-boosted moves and trapping Ferrothorn for Tapu Koko.
  • Tapu Koko can run many sets and variations of these sets. The most common is Choice Band, which runs U-turn / Play Rough / Brave Bird / Bolt Strike. It can also run Zap Plate / Life Orb sets which often run Hidden Power Ice over Brave Bird as it's not really strong enough without Choice Band. Choice Scarf and Choice Specs set are viable to get around conventional Tapu Koko checks such as faster offensive threats or to break down physical walls that think they're safe to switch in freely. Other sets like with Taunt, Roost, Nature's Madness, and so on. Those are viable, too.
  • Checking Tapu Koko comes down to Ground- and Grass-types. You have to run at least two Tapu Koko checks in my eyes, to handle all of its sets. Or just be Eevee General and play around Tapu Koko without actually having solid checks to it (somehow?).
  • Tapu Koko is the best Pokemon in the tier. No other Pokemon matches its sheer versatility and insane offensive capabilities. Its offensive typing is excellent, its Speed and Attack are stellar, and it has insanely powerful moves to use all of this with.
Tapu Koko has always been broken and I voted to ban it when I was on the rotating council. Here's another post you can read as to why I think Tapu Koko is unhealthy: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-om-of-the-month.3587949/page-11#post-7409219.

I'm not calling for another suspect, as I don't see it turning out differently. I'm merely expressing how I feel that Tapu Koko is broken and unhealthy. Another suspect would be excellent in my opinion, if the council was more open to the notion of banning it. Currently, I don't see that happening.

Akumeoy – Ferrothorn:

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 212 HP / 100 Def / 196 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Spore / Leech Seed / Knock Off
- Power Whip / Anchor Shot
- Strength Sap

I'd prefer Spikes / Spore or Leech Seed / Strength Sap / Horn Leech or Anchor Shot and run Stealth Rock on like Garchomp or Landorus-T. Up to your team's needs.
I mean yes of course it can beat its checks im not denying that, thats why its the best mon in the tier right now

Also for the reply to your opinion on my suggestions, of course its not fool-proof and will beat koko 100% of the time, those were just ways i thought may help
I dont know tbh, on one hand it feels like its manageable (its not like kyurem black for example that can beat 90% of the tier with one set)

On the other hand i can see why people say its too troublesome (it can run too many different sets, with different counters each. I once saw a physical set with a fairium z fleur cannon, interesting and caught me off guard)

Then again maybe i never found tapu koko to be too troublesome because im that type of person to spam only sticky webs HO on the ladder so i never really felt like it was overwhelming

I support another suspect anyways, i think its the best way to go to see if its broken or not


Also, just my thoughts about the lovely kiss and sing potential ban
I definitely do not agree with banning sing and lovely kiss cause of one potential abuser for each one

Lovely kiss on its own is not broken on a mon like diggersby, or espeon. same goes for the meme called sing. This is definitely hitting the territory of complex ban, if the user is broken with the move, ban the user, not the otherwise unbroken move.

I can understand people are saying pidgeotite isnt broken/uncompetitive without sing. But isnt that basically the same as saying, aegislash wouldnt be broken without kingshield, or shaymin would not be broken without its air slash/seed flare?

I mean thats the equivalent of banning psystrike on every mon so lele can be unbanned
or banning air slash or seed flare because shaymin sky uses it too well


I dont agree tbh, just my opinion of course


Edit: grammar/spelling mistakes, plus removed some unneccasary paragraphs
 
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as i've already talked about tapu koko on numerous occasions, i'll touch on the others. firstly, i feel as if neither pidgeot-mega or lopunny-mega are broken in their own rights. pidgeot-mega struggles versus a ton of common threats, notably heatran, and any other offensive threat (hint: there's a ton of them!). lopunny-mega is incredibly strong, but it still has its checks such as bulky grass- and water-types like tangrwoth / venusaur-mega and tapu fini. however, both of these pokemon are pushed a little further thanks to their access to sing in pidgeot-mega's case, or lovely kiss in lopunny-mega's case. neither is remotely over-centralizing or broken. but i do realize that banning specific moves has consequences for other pokemon, and that it's kind of a policy thing whether to look at the moves or the pokemon. therefore, i suggest these options...
  1. ban sing + ban lovely kiss: this is the option i've selected and would like to see followed through with. pidgeot-mega is so irritating and annoying to face. i feel as if these two moves fall into the category of chatter, giving the user an unfair advantage over the opponent but not being explicitly broken. i feel that banning pidgeotite in general is silly, but banning lopunnite is not far-fetched as points could be made to ban it. however, i don't really see how i could be convinced that banning pidgeotite is the correct course of action.
  2. ban sing + ban lopunnite: the second option is the option i see that takes elements of the first but focuses more on lopunny-mega. lopunny-mega has a ton of other things that make it an offensive powerhouse; however, lovely kiss is what pushes it into even more terrifying territory. do you think that more pokemon could potentially use lovely kiss (i use it on diggersby) and that banning it doesn't make sense? well, this is probably the option that makes the most sense. there is not trickle effect on sing either, as literally nothing else runs sing but pidgeot-mega.
  3. ban pidgeotite + ban lopunnite: perhaps you think both are inherently broken, and you want to make a case for banning the pokemon (items, really) instead of the moves. maybe there are uses for sing or lovely kiss you think could be used. i don't see it. i think this option is a poor choice because pidgeot-mega is not anything over-centralizing or powerful without running pidgeotite. lopunny-mega on the other hand, as i've stated numerous times, has things that could potentially make it too strong even without lovely kiss.
  4. do not ban pidgeotite + ban lopunnite: this is probably the option i see being the second most likely to occur, if not the first option i've proposed. i feel like you could easily argue that pidgeot-mega isn't over-centralizing, but more annoying than anything. i disagree with that notion, but i feel as if banning lopunnite is something i'm sure a lot of people would agree they could see happening. however, this option enforces the policy of banning pokemon more so than moves, which could be an option. one i disagree with, but it's a plausible possibility.
  5. do not ban anything: i feel as if the community can agree that something has to be done about these two threats. whether you want to dispute whether the moves themselves are broken, or that the pokemon need to be banned since they make use of the moves, no matter what, something should be done about the two nominated threats on the radar. personally, i think doing nothing on either would reflect poorly on how the process of weeding out broken / over-centralizing pokemon. something should be done about these two.
here's what i think needs to be done: ban sing + ban lovely kiss. sing is only broken on pidgeot-mega, and nothing else runs sing. keeping pidgeot-mega would be nice to have a faster offensive normal-type with a secondary stab, similar to porygon-z, but much weaker. banning sing gives us a cool threat to use and doesn't detract from anything else. meanwhile, lovely kiss is what could push lopunny-mega into broken territory by enabling it to sleep any of its counters and select what it wants to cripple the rest of the match. lopunny-mega is not broken without lovely kiss as it can be stopped by common defensive pokemon, such as landorus-t, which takes it on with ease. yeah it gives offense a headache because of fakespeed. diggersby also gives offensive a headache because of fakespeed + secondary stab makes it very hard to switch into. offensive teams are annoyed by fakespeed, that's just how it goes, so i don't think saying that it makes offense harder to use makes it in any way broken. but that's my personal philosophy.

i'm sure there's something i've missed or forgot, but that's just my opinin. there's definitely more that could be argued for either way, but this is my stance. tan bapu koko.
I agree really strongly with almost all of this. The exception is
pidgeot-mega is not anything over-centralizing or powerful without running pidgeotite. .
:3 well no its not... anything really.

But yeh just throwing my support behind what Wishes said 100%.

How do we feel about banning a move that is, on its own merits, considered trash, but only viable on one (or two, speaking in general terms) Pokemon due to some inherit trait of that Pokemon? Philosophically speaking.

So far, we have only banned moves because they were deemed broken (Shift Gear, Geomancy) or uncompetitive (Chatter, Acupressure). The moves don't have to break every Pokemon that has access to them (Shift Gear Beldum) but overall they break/make uncompetitive enough viable Pokemon.

I'm talking Sing here, if that wasn't clear.

Other examples include Dynamic Punch, which was considered seriously for a ban in PU (see Policy Review forum).
I'd be down for banning sing if it's determined to be broken/uncompetitive on Megs Pidg because that seems like the option that effects the meta the least. Jajoken is probably right about how policy v practicality work out.

Without Sing Mega Pidg is just a mediocre normal type. But since Sing doesn't break anything else the consistent thing to do with ban policy is probably to ban Mega Pidg

I mean thats the equivalent psystrike on every mon so lele can be unbanned
or banning air slash or seed flare because shaymin sky uses it too well
[/hide]
No (to this part I don't have time to respond to the rest) because other pokemon can make use of those moves and not be broken. Nothing else uses Sing. Banning it only practically effects Mega Pidg.
 
No (to this part I don't have time to respond to the rest) because other pokemon can make use of those moves and not be broken. Nothing else uses Sing. Banning it only practically effects Mega Pidg.
But what will be different if sing were to be banned? Mega pidgeot will still be able to use lovely kiss with 100% accuracy (which is basically the same except it doesnt go through subs) and people will still complain about that then
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
Yeh Smogon banning philosophy favores the least amount of move bans and favors banning the mon outright. A case can be made with Lovely Kiss considering that I can see it being problematic on a number of threats bar Mega Lopunny (Kang, Bewear, heck even Mega Pidg), which can result on a ban of the move outright. However, Sing is only practically used on Mega Pidgeot, therefore if it is determined problematic when used in conjunction with it (a sentiment that I am still unsure of), then banning Mega Pidgeot seems to be the appropriate action, regardless if Sing is only viable run by it.
 
Yeh Smogon banning philosophy favores the least amount of move bans and favors banning the mon outright. A case can be made with Lovely Kiss considering that I can see it being problematic on a number of threats bar Mega Lopunny (Kang, Bewear, heck even Mega Pidg), which can result on a ban of the move outright. However, Sing is only practically used on Mega Pidgeot, therefore if it is determined problematic when used in conjunction with it (a sentiment that I am still unsure of), then banning Mega Pidgeot seems to be the appropriate action, regardless if Sing is only viable run by it.
But if Sing is only viable on M-Pidgeot, then what would banning it hurt? It seems to me like the philosophy your logic follows is akin to cutting off my arm when my finger gets a splinter. Why not eliminate the bad branch instead of cutting down the entire tree? MP without sing is still viable, and is even less powerful than if it got sing. Therefore, how could you justify banning something that isn't broken without the move that is "broken" (I'm not entirely convinced it is)? Would banning MP entirely help the metagame or hurt people who wanted to use it in their team? Would it be conducive to the metagame to limit your choice of Pokemon if one move on said pokemon is broken? And I get your speaking in the frame of Smogon's philosophy, but if that's Smogon's philosophy, then I have some major quarrels with it.
 
We would ban Pidgeotite instead of Sing for the same reason OU banned Blaziken entirely instead of Speed Boost.
False Equivalence. You know very well that an ability is different from a move as far as Pokemon is concerned. There are usable speed boost users who aren't broken because of it. Therefore, banning speed boost would have hurt more 'mons than just Blaziken. However, just banning sing here would only hurt one 'mon. And that 'mon is still usable without that one move. So, what would the OU metagame lose by banning speed boost? The option for other 'mons who have it to use it while still being balanced through whatever way they were. Blaziken was breaking the meta. Sing is arguably breaking the meta, not MP. So, why ban MP over just sing again?
 
We would ban Pidgeotite instead of Sing for the same reason OU banned Blaziken entirely instead of Speed Boost.
This argument does not stand, because banning speed boost had a signifiant impact on the meta regardless of blaziken, in the shape of scolipede. On the other hand, banking sing from being stabbed has no other impact because lovely kiss is Always superior. Even things like protean affected the meta à little, with frogadier and kecleon.
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
Yes but we do not follow a banlist to adhere upon keeping certain mons in the metagame. Its not like Sing is universally broken on a majority of users (hint it's only on Mega Pidg) and banning Sing just to conserve it's presence does not adhere to official tiering ideology.

I like Mega Pidg too, but we got to do what's conventional here.
 

EV

desu
is a Battle Server Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
PS Policy Head
Personally, I'm not even convinced that Mega Pidgeot or Sing or Mega Pidgeot with Sing are broken, so I really don't see us having to unpack that can of worms any time soon. Though I must say Buttermink is making some fine arguments on the subject.

If we start seeing sumthin like SoUnDpRoOf ElEcTrOdE all of the sudden, then the case for Mega Pidgeot being centralizing would hold some water. And it's not like it can setup anymore w/o Shell Smash (Work Up!?!?!). Sing Mega Pidgeot is mainly a nuisance, especially for slower teams. You can achieve similar results with Spore Mega Sceptile, for example (if you're down with putting a garbage mon on your team, tho).

Now, when sleep is paired with a setupper, such as Mega Lopunny, then you begin to take notice of its effects on the metagame. Trying to figure out a way to check SD when your switch-in is asleep starts looking like

(add Sleep Talk, carry the Lum Berry, divide by Magic Bounce, etc).

Now factor in that Scrappy permits zero immunities and Normal/Fight complement each other perfectly and you might as well try to find the square root of pi.

If we move to suspect anything, I vote it be Topkek Koko and Lovely Kiss. Mega Lopunny is still good without the status move, and this nips all the other uses of the move before they can begin to flower, those being the other bunny Diggersby and any Normal-type with room to spare. 75% is shaky, yes (SPORE HAS 100% YOU FOOL!!!!) but unlike Spore, it holds far fewer immunities - No Grass immunity, no Goggles, no Overcoat, no Sap Sipper, and any other random niches.

tl;dr - Lovely Kiss breaks Mega Lop, Sing breaks nothing; Suspect the move, not the mon.
 
Yes but we do not follow a banlist to adhere upon keeping certain mons in the metagame. Its not like Sing is universally broken on a majority of users (hint it's only on Mega Pidg) and banning Sing just to conserve it's presence does not adhere to official tiering ideology.

I like Mega Pidg too, but we got to do what's conventional here.
Sometimes conventions were not set for the times in which they are used. I always hold that conventions are not the end all and be all, and should, given the right circumstances, be broken.
 

DEG

Am I really in control now?
is a Smogon Media Contributor
To be honest it depends what's broken in the metagame, if we want to ban Sing and Lovely Kiss why not just ban Sleeping moves as a whole for uniformity. I don't see why both of these moves warrant a ban where other Sleep-inducing moves such as Spore aren't. Spore can be checked by Grass-type Pokemon unlike the 2 moves above but if someone believes Sing and Lovely Kiss are broken why not just also consider Spore also? I'm not with banning a sleeping move and keeping another to be honest, if the user makes the move banned then the user should be banned. Such moves can easily either force out a switch neutralizing a Pokemon for a couple of turns adding to the luck factor or make the opponent's easily lose momentum. I'm with banning Sleep-inducing moves as a whole.

Mega Pidgeot is a great Pokemon thanks to its great speed and special attack plus its access to Boomburst. Mega Pidgeot has some good checks and its in no way broken but the move that pushes it to the edge is Sing. With Sing in its moveslot its basically going to force out a switch to another Pokemon or bluff the usage of Sing and nail the foe with a Boomburst or Hurricane dealing a great amount of damage. Plus, some of its checks can be neutralized by Sing making the game turn into a gamble.

Mega Lopunny on the other hand is definitely over the edge with its access to Lovely Kiss. It is easily able to put a foe to sleep and set up. Sleep+Set-Up have always been a problem and Mega Lopunny's ability in Scrappy making it have 0 immunities adds to the problem. With its High Speed stat it can Sword Dance and nail fast Scarf users with an Extreme Speed and damage slower Pokemon with a High Jump Kick.


I'm with suspecting Sleep-inducing moves and Tapu Koko. If not Sleep-inducing moves as a whole, definitely Mega Lopunny.
 

version 2.1
Suspect Announcement


Welcome to the next phase of O.T.R. where we announce the Pokemon up for potential ban! Tapu Koko may have escaped the last suspect by the hair on its mohawk, the council has decided to re-test it, as more and more sets have cropped up that are capable of circumventing many of its best checks. And while Mega Steelix remains one of the most reliable counters available, you shouldn't have to rely on a mediocre mega in order to check the best Pokemon in the format.

Secondly, after deliberating on the subject of Sleep and its abusers, we're going to tackle the status move Lovely Kiss specifically. 75% Accuracy may not be that impressive, but with an overall lack of solid checks to the status when paired with powerful setup mons such as Mega Lopunny, Porygon Z, or Diggersby et al, it can easily overrun many STABmons team archetypes. Sing was not suspected because it has worse Accuracy and is only viable when combined with No Guard Mega Pidgeot (which we judged not to be suspect worthy at this time.) Spore was also not suspected due to the many immunities to powder-based moves.

And finally, here is the slate. We will announce the results on Friday, July 28th. To kick things off, we will hold a suspect tour TODAY, July 25th, at 9 PM EST in the Other Metagames room on PS. We may hold more suspect tours in the next few days. As always, the suspects are BANNED for the tours, to see how the metagame plays without the threats. If you want to test the metagame with the threats, you do that on the ladder. For real time discussion in a more intimate setting with the council, join the Neon Town room on PS (/j neon town or /j stabmons).

See you there!

Slate:

Tapu Koko (re-suspect)

  • Lovely Kiss
 
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Official Fissure

I'm no fake Fissure
Thank you to everyone who came and participated in tonight's suspect tour! Congratulations to Jrdn for winning! If we are able to hold more suspect tours in the next few days, we will announce it here in this thread. We look forward to everyone's continued discussion on this suspect :heart:
Finals: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-608858920
stabmons.png
 
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DEG

Am I really in control now?
is a Smogon Media Contributor
VR update;
Unranked to A-/A, I'd like to echo ihhca's thoughts since he made me try the Pokemon. Terrakion is a great Pokemon as it has a great typing in Fighting/Rock letting it offensively check Normal-type Fakespeeders it also has great STAB combination Close Combat and Diamond Storm when combined with a Sword Dance set up opportunity and Z-Rock move it's able to deal a lot of damage and pressure the opponent, plus it has access to two choice of priority in Accelrock in Mach Punch making it even better.

In opposition to Ihhca's thoughts I don't believe Thundurus deserves to be moved down because Tapu Koko overshadows it. I believe that both fills different roles even though both are offensive Electric-type Pokemon. Thundurus has access to Nasty Plot+Oblivion Wing+Thunderbolt which can really clean a lot of unprepared teams or even weakened teams while Tapu Koko picks up kills without even needing to set up. Tapu Koko is like a hard hitter that either tear the team apart or weaken it while Thundurus is more used as a cleaner or sweeper.

Also isn't the A rank a little bit crowded?

(Click)

This is a team I built around Mega Medicham, I've used it in some games on ladder and against wishes and ihhca it did great and it would have done better if it I wasn't a bad player. Anyways the team is pretty straightforward, Mega Medicham is a terrifying wall breaker capable of doing a lot of damage to the opponent especially some stally cores to open up the path to Thundurus which can clean the opposing team. Though, both are weak to priority, especially fake-speed that's why Tangrowth and Celesteela are present to keep in check fakespeeders specially both Diggersby and Mega Lopunny. Tyranitar gives specially defensive bulk allowing it to keep in check Boomburst users such as Mega Pidgeot and Porygon-Z. I had Manaphy instead of Ash-Greninja but it didn't do anything so I have replaced it. Ash-Greninja acts as a second cleaner when combined with Choice Specs, it also has access to priority in Water Shuriken.
 
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Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
Its time everyone!


version 2.2
Suspect Results


After some vigorous suspect tour battling and heavy discussion, the council has finally come to a vote concerning our OTR threats and we are ready to share our results to you all! We would like to thank everyone who participated in the Suspect tour and especially want to congratulate the winner Jrdn. The feedback from players really helped us come to conclusions and let us gauge public opinion in order to address potential bans much more quickly. Anyway enough rambling, here are your results:
Results:

Tapu Koko - Banned 3-2-1
Lovely Kiss - Banned 6-0-0

Reasonings:
ihhca said:
Tapu Koko: BAN

Simply put, this hits too hard, is too fast, and has too much coverage/utility for most teams to handle. Sure, you can beat generic choiced sets with Defensive Lando or Ferrothorn, but once mixed Magnet sets come into the equation then all bets are off for most viable pokemon. Even bulky resists, like Defensive Rotom-H or Specs Magnezone get 2hko'd by Jolly Magnet Bolt Strike after rocks.

252 Atk Magnet Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat in Electric Terrain: 120-142 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Magnet Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Magnezone in Electric Terrain: 156-184 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Nothing comes in safely against this except Electric immune pokemon, and all of them that I know of except for Excadrill, Steelix, and Nidoqueen are at risk of being 2HKO'd by coverage with no special investment. This is overcentralizing to me.

Additionally, this just straight up OHKOs everything that doesn't resist and isn't max defense, which I think is broken in combination with its speed and typing.

252 Atk Magnet Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 351-414 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While it can't 2HKO everything with 1 set, it has so many mixups and so much raw power, that it's unreasonable to check every set and have flexibility on your team.


Lovely Kiss: BAN
This adds a lot of luck into the game in terms of accuracy and sleep turns and forces you to run two checks to things like Mega Lopunny, or subject yourself to rolls of the RNG. I don't think that's healthy for the metagame.
Eevee General said:
Tapu Koko: ABSTAIN

Haven't tested since last suspect.


Lovely Kiss: BAN
I find it unhealthy for a number of reasons, mainly that it allows offensive setup sweepers to invalidate defensive checks. Whereas other sleep moves have a reasonable number of defensive (or even offensive answers), LK has too few available. And while the Sleep Clause argument allows only one teammate immobilized by the move at a time, the turns wasted foddering for sleep gives the LK user a chance to setup. We usually see this on Swords Dance Mega Lopunny, which is normally a very strong yet manageable threat, but it's viable on other Normal setup Pokemon such as Diggersby, Porygon-Z, and Silvally.​
Funbot28 said:
Tapu Koko
NO BAN
I still hold the same stance towards Tapu Koko as a did last time we voted on it. While more sets have been popping up to catch its check off guard such as Mixed Fairium Z Fleur Cannon and full on Choice Specs sets, Tapu Koko still always struggles to break through the threats that can switch into it (Mega Lix; which is not a niche mega plz, Lando-T, Alo-Wak, Rotom-C, Pert, etc...) without proper prediction. Its the best mon in the format, but nothing more then that imo. I must admit that I was more undecided this time around, but ultimately will be voting the same way.


Lovely Kiss
BAN
Im glad we are finally looking into this move. I have always felt that it was lowkey broken, but Mega Lopunny's introduction has really highlighted how nasty Lovely Kiss can be to shut down its counters. Its not only Mega Lopunny though, other wallbreakers / setup sweepers such as Kangaskhan, Bravriary, even Snorlax have been putting in a lot of work for me when i decided to dedicate a slot for the move since it can really limit how the opposing players decides to bring in the answers to the aforementioned threats in risk of foddering too many mons. Yes the move does not have perfect accuracy, but unlike Spore there is really no drawback in just spamming it until it hits, which really skews up the risk and reward factor, and is why I am voting to ban it outright.
Betathunder said:
Koko
NO BAN
Albeit threatening and versatile, I don't think it's ban worthy. There are still viable checks, and it is easily loses to priority.


Lovely Kiss
BAN
Especially on Lop, sleep gives a free turn of set up or doubling. It cripples most defensive switchins, allowing other attackers to easily run rampant. It's really hard to counter viably and overall I feel uncompetitive.
Jrdn said:
Koko BAN: Too strong too fast. Bolt strike is absolutely ridiculous, and there are so many sets that can catch off any switchins

Lovely kiss Ban without a doubt, this was broken last gen, and needs to go this time too.
Official Fissure said:
Tapu Koko: BAN
The suspect tour really stuck with me and was ultimately what helped me decide on my choice. I understand that there are certain answers to certain koko sets, and that these answers are legitimately viable in the STABmons metagame and are not just niche answers that dont serve any other purpose to the team. But what really made koko ban worthy was how constrictive it was battling against it. The best way to deal with koko (in my opinion) was to use priority against it because the checks are only reliable when you switch them in when koko is not attacking. Hard switching into your koko answer puts you into a 50/50 scenario where either you tank the hit and will successfully force your opponent to switch or you got either volt switched/ U-turned on and are now at a switch disadvantage. Now i understand that this is how this works every time you battle a mon that learns either of these two moves, but what separates koko from every other volt-turner is its massive attack, speed, and ability. Having a built in choice specs or band* (it is basically the same, electric terrain has slightly different rolls, has the same min roll and can do like 1 more damage on a max roll than specs or band can while calculated against the same mon. Results might be different against mons that take super-effective damage against electric but if that is the case, it will get on shot either way )* on your electric stab. If the koko has not revealed its set yet, you gotta hope it is one that your "check" can actually check. When I played in the suspect tour, I was actually able to send out mons such as tapu fini, celesteela, and rotom-w to answer my opponent without worrying "If they send out koko I lose something". While not exactly the same, I view koko like I view Dugtrio in OU. Say my opponent has a Latios and I have a Magearna. Magearna should always be a safe switch-in on my part, except my opponent has a Dugtrio (In this case a koko). While I'm not trapped in with koko, something still takes a hit. When you are scared to make what should be a good, safe play, something is wrong. I kinda got side-tracked there but TL:DR koko is just too fast, powerful, and has too many different sets to fully prepare for that I think it warrants for a ban. Thanks for reading my 1:00 AM ramblings.


Lovely Kiss: BAN
Lovely kiss is exactly how it was last gen. Many normal types can use this move to abuse setting-up while also having access to priority (e-speed and fake out) thanks to being normal type, so good luck trying to revenge kill it. While 75% accuracy still is not great, it surprisingly hits often (well at least when I use it anyways) and cannot be stopped by grass types or safety goggles like spore.

[/spoiler]
Now that is done, we encourage everyone to post viable sample teams in order to expand our resource doc further. Also expect a Viability Rankings update shortly.

This month was a blast!
 
OM legend and professional AFKer here to drop in with my god squad team (that just got better bc of Koko ban), but where should I post it, just drop it here or something? Resource document is read-only.
 
Wow i was surprised lovely kiss was banned with unanimity, i thought the only real abuser of it was lopunny (which i think still needs to be looked at). Oh well

Well since its towards the end of the month, i thought i would share an interesting team i had success with



Scolipede @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Spikes
- Protect
- Megahorn/Gunk Shot

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Bullet Punch

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge

Celesteela @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Autotomize
- Oblivion Wing
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain

Thundurus-Therian @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Oblivion Wing
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

Of course this team is very flexible, and u can change up some mons to use other stuff like diggersby/lopunny or gallade-m. Basically anything that benefits/supports webs
If you havent noticed already, this team is based off the broken sticky webs and was based off njnps ou sticky webs team to some extent

First step is simple, you set up sticky webs and at least one layer off spikes with scolipede (hands down the best user) and once scolipede goes down, go to the appopriate teammate and force the poke out.

Bisharp is the teams defog-deter choice for the team, standard set but with bullet punch over iron head for reliable priority.

Mimikyu is probably the best spectral thief user after marsh got banned, and can beat most set up sweepers, mimikyu is also the rapid-spin/fakespeed blocker of choice.

Landorus is the scarfer of the team with its standard set. You can also run a defensive rocky helmet set to improve your matchup against lopunny and such. You can also run diggersby which is a very good revenge killer

Celesteela is an amazing set up sweeper, oblivion wing gives it so much longetivity. Celesteela also has an amazing typing and bulk, and can set up on almost anything

Thundurus-t is the wallbreaker of this team with 145 spatk and nasty plot. I chose thundurus-t over incarnate is because it has a higher chance of ko'ing chansey and defensive pokes with z focus blast. Oblivion wing for longetivity and thunderbolt is for stab (and beating celesteela which walls my whole team). Using thundurus i/gallade is also an option if u want to outspeed keldeo and base 109's outside sticky web

This team does struggle with common threats such as greninja-ash, keldeo, tyranitar and lopunny though so uh be careful?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-600607828
Celesteela and thundurus t apply so much pressure with oblivion wing

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599837380
Not the same team but the same idea, diggersby instead of landorus and gallade instead of celesteela

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-611135153
Random example showing how the team functions outside of webs too

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-600598191
Funny replay of celesteela sweeping all the broken-ass mons before they were banned
 
Doom Desire + Future Sight Bulky Offense
Heatran @ Steelium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Doom Desire
- Earth Power
- King's Shield

Slowking (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Psystrike
- Future Sight
- Fire Blast

Pidgeot-Mega (F) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sing
- Boomburst
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave

Diggersby (M) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Beak Blast
- Leech Seed
- King's Shield
- Roost

Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 48 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
 
I'm pretty ambivalent on the Koko ban, but I'm glad Lovely Kiss is finally out of the meta. It just pushed too many normal-type set-up users (mostly Megabunny) over the edge.

On another note, I was reading over the old council conversations from the XY and ORAS eras (back when I was relevant) and stumbled on an interesting idea. I don't know how much interest this would really have (especially with our ladder ending), but a long time ago (geez, it's almost been three years, makes me feel old), the council discussed a spin-off metagame called STABmons+, which was an ubers version with loosened mechanics, including allowing megas to gain moves from their new types and allowing moves to be transferred between forme changes (something that we've implemented anyway now). I actually don't remember if the idea ever made it out of our private thread or not, but it caught my interest. I'm not suggesting it be given another thread or a ladder or anything, but some discussion on it would be neat, and I would totally be up for trying it out using BH or custom game. Ubers has a lot of interesting STABmons, such as Yveltal (Parting Shot, Nasty Plot), Ho-Oh (Dragon Ascent, Beak Blast, V-Create), and Primal Groudon (V-Create, Sacred Fire, Shore Up). I'd also like to see if some of the stuff we've banned, like Kartana, would have any viability in a STABmons+ meta. I guess mostly it would just amount to theorymonning with it being hard to arrange actual battles, but that's fun too.

also reading the old council discussions has made me really nostalgic, although I'm not quite sure if I would consider those "the good ol' days"
 

EV

desu
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PS Policy Head
I updated the VR with most of Virginia's suggestions and tweaked a few things.

Other things I'd like to see:
  • A new S rank - what are the best Pokemon in the format???
  • More Silvally formes ranked - Fairy, Fighting, Flying, Ground, etc. Where do they fit in???
  • The B ranks are ugly and I hate them.