1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Data State of the Game - 8/7/2011

Discussion in 'ASB' started by DarkSlay, Aug 7, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,414
    Effective immediately (08/09/2011 9:00 PM EST):

    Evasion is a dead issue in the SotG. Dodge is not going anywhere, and all future SotG's the Evasion issue is explicitly prohibited from discussion. Discussion involving evasion will be moderated.


    Hi all, and welcome to another exciting edition of The State of the Game! It’s been almost half a year since the start of ASB, so congrats goes out to all the players and staff of ASB that have been able to make ASB such a successful venture to this point (and in the future). Up to this point, we have around 180 members who have signed up for ASB, and roughly 80 members who actively played within the last few weeks. Thanks for the participation everyone!

    First things first, here is a recap of the items that were passed from the last SotG, including ones that were automatically implemented as well as ones voted in:

    Notifications:

    Stat System (open)

    1. Mons with 120 in a Base Stat are now Rank 5. No other stat related changes have been made.


    Sluggish Note (open)
    2. Sluggish is not negated by STAB.

    This will be edited in STAB descriptions.


    Combination System (open)

    3. The Combination System has been greatly enhanced and codified.


    Combination Priority (open)
    Combinations have always been tricky because much of it is left up to the imagination. Combinations will still be allowed at ref discretion, however the efects of how they work together will be codified below.

    Priority of Move 1 vs. Priority of Move 2.


    Priority 0 + Priority 0: -2

    Priority 3 + Priority 2: 5 (ex. Fake Out + Feint)
    Priority 3 + Priority 1: 4 (ex. Fake Out + Bullet Punch)
    Priority 2 + Priority 2: 4 (ex. Extremespeed + Feint)
    Priority 2 + Priority 1: 3 (ex. Extremespeed + Aqua Jet)
    Priority 2 + Priority 0: 1 (ex. Feint + Crunch)
    Priority 1 + Priority 1: 2 (ex. Bullet Punch + Mach Punch)
    Priority 1 + Priority 0: 1 (ex. Bullet Punch + ThunderPunch)
    Priority 1 + Priority -3: -3 (ex. Mach Punch + Focus Punch)
    Priority 0 + Priority -1: -3 (ex. Body Slam + Bounce [Hit])
    Priority 0 + Priority -2: -4 (ex. Brave Bird + Fly [Hit])
    Priority 0 + Priority -3: -5 (ex. ThunderPunch + Focus Punch)
    Priority 0 + Priority -4: -6 (ex. Icicle Crash + Avalanche)
    Priority 0 + Priority -5: -7 (ex. Metal Burst + Counter)
    Priority 0 + Priority -6: -7 (ex. Iron Tail + Dragon Tail)
    Priority -1 + Priority 0: -3 (ex. Razor Wind [Hit] + Air Slash)
    Priority -1 + Priority -6: -7 (ex. Vital Throw + Circle Throw)
    Priority -1 + Priority -2: -5 (ex. Skull Bash [Hit] + Dig [Hit]
    Priority -2 + Priority 0: -4 (ex. Dig [Hit] + Crunch)
    Priority -2 + Priority -1: -5 (ex. Fly [Hit] + Sky Attack [Hit])
    Priority -3 + Priority -3: -7 (ex. Focus Punch + Focus Punch)
    Priority -4 + Priority -4: -7 (ex. Avalanche + Avalanche)
    Priority -5 + Priority -5: -7 (ex. Mirror Coat + Mirror Coat)

    Other Priority Combination notes:

    Charge effects always occur during their normal priority, so Focus Punch will always charge before any other action, Sky Attack will still charge at +1, and Razor Wind and Skull Bash will still have their useful effects at +1 Priority.

    Evasive Actions are moved down by the same level of priority as a the Hit phase, so Dig + Crunch will have the Evasive action take place at -2 and the Hit take place at -4 (e.g. it can evade Focus Punch and priority combinations that hit -3 priority) Body Slam + Bounce will take evasive action on -2 priority and hit at -3, potentially allowing you to evade a normal Dig, Fly, or 0 + 0 Combination, or worst case scenario evading or damaging vs. a Focus Punch.

    So the general rule for most priority at 0 or below is it drops priority 2 levels. Priority above 1 tends to either maintain itself or drop by one stage, depending on the combination. Combinations of multiple low priority moves will drop to the lowest priority stage, -7.


    Combination Effects and Energy Cost (open)
    Combination Effects and Energy Cost:

    There are two kinds of combinations. A combination of the same attack, and a combination of different attacks. Combinations of the same attack have multiplicative effects, Combinations of different attacks have additive effects.

    Same Attack:
    Base Attack Power = BAP * 2.25
    Energy Cost = (EC + (EC+4))*2
    Effect Chance = Effect Chance * 2
    Stat Boosts/Drawbacks = Stat Boosts/Drawbacks * 2
    Return Damage = Return Damage^2
    Recoil = Recoil * 1.5
    Accuracy = (Accuracy^2) + Spe Modifier

    Different Attacks:
    Base Attack Power = BAP 1 + BAP 2
    Energy Cost = (EC 1 + EC 2) * 1.5
    Effect Chance = Effect Chance 1 + Effect Chance 2
    Stat Boosts/Drops = B/D 1 + B/D 2
    Return Damage - Return Damage 1 + Return Damage 2
    Recoil = Recoil 1 + Recoil 2 / # Recoil Moves
    Accuracy = ((Accuracy 1 + Accuracy 2) / 2) + Spe Modifier


    Combining Physical and Special Attacks (open)
    Combining Physical and Special attacks:

    Ever though Work Up and Growth were kind of useless? Well, the good news is that as difficult as it is to pull off, you can use both attack types at once in a combination. Here's how to calculate:

    Example: Brave Torterra Razor Leaf + Leaf Storm w/ +1 Atk/SpA, in a Double Battle against Starmie and Archeops.


    Move Data (open)
    Razor Leaf: The Pokemon fires a blast of razor-sharp leaves at its opponent. The extreme sharpness of the leaves make the attack more likely to result in a critical hit. This move targets up to three (3) adjacent opponents in a multi-battle.

    Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 4 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Leaf Storm: Several parts of the Pokemon's body start to glow as it charges up. The Pokemon then launches a huge cyclone of wind and razor-sharp leaves at the foe. The attack is so exhausting that it lowers the user's Special Attack stat by two (2) stages.

    Attack Power: 14 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 9 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Force


    Show Hide
    First combine the Base Attack Power of the two attacks, then split it in half. One will calculate using Physical Attack and the other will calculate using Special Attack. Apply STAB before the split. 6 + 14 + 3 = 23, split in half is 11.5. The accuracy if the attack will be 92.5%. In a double battle, Razor Leaf hits all foes, and Leaf Storm lowers Special Attack two stages after use. The Energy cost is (4 + 9 - 1 = 12) * 1.5 = 18.

    Physical Calc:
    Starmie: (8.625 (11.5 *0.75) + 3 [Star Difference] = 11.625) * 1.5 = 17.4375 + 1.75 = 19.1875
    Archeops: (8.625 (11.5 * 0.75) + 3) [Star Difference] = 11.625) * 1 = 11.625 + 1.75 = 13.375

    Special Calc:
    Starmie (8.625 (11.5 * 0.75) + 0 [Star Difference] * 1.5 = 12.9375 + 1.75 = 14.6875
    Archeops (8.625 (11.5*0.75) + 0 [Star Difference] * 1 = 8.625 + 1.75 = 10.375

    Total Damage: 34 Starmie, 24 Archeops, 18 Energy, -2 SpA.


    Combination Type (open)
    Combination Type (CT):

    Combination type can alter based on how attacks are used, though most are cut and dried. If wanted, I can try and come up with a list of combination properties. Combination attacks are usually the type of the move with the highest Base Attack Power in the combination.

    There are 6 Combination Types, in order of strength:

    Set: Typing is such a fixed part of this attack it will override all other types.
    Force: Typing defines the attack to such an extent it will override elements.
    Elemental: Typing defines the attack as imbued with an elemental property.
    Passive: Typing is part of the attack but is not definitive in its use.
    Deferring: This attack is easily redefined by the qualities of other attacks
    None: This attack summons other attacks and uses their properties, or otherwise cannot be combined.

    Set Examples: Fake Out, Feint, Earthquake, Surf

    Force Examples: Draco Meteor, Heat Wave, Reversal, Superpower

    Elemental Examples: Aqua Tail, Bullet Punch, Energy Ball, Earth Power, Flare Blitz, Flash Cannon, Ice Fang, ThunderPunch, Will-O-Wisp.

    Passive Examples: Crunch, Dragon Tail, Iron Tail, Focus Punch, Rock Slide.

    Deferring Examples: Dig, Dive, Flail


    Example Combinations:

    Lets give a few examples. For our first example, lets assume we have an Emboar using Flare Blitz + Superpower.

    Flare Blitz + Superpower:

    Move Data (open)
    Flare Blitz: The Pokémon becomes engulfed in flames, and charges at the opponent with great force, taking recoil equal to 1/3 of the damage from the attack. It will thaw a frozen opponent, and has a chance to burn the opponent.

    Attack Power: 12 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Effect Chance: 10% | Typing: Fire | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Superpower: The Pokemon glows with strength before making a powerful strike. However, it exhausts the Pokemon, lowering its Attack and Defense by one (1) stage each.

    Attack Power: 12 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Force


    Show Hide
    The attacks would combine to have 24 Base Attack Power. The average accuracy of both is 100. Since both moves are priority zero, the attack hits with -2 priority. Both Attacks have the same Base Attack Power, but because Superpower has Force, it overrides Flare Blitz's Elemental, making it a 24 BAP Fighting Attack. Emboar has STAB on Fighting, so the combined cost is (8 + 8 -1 [STAB] = 15) * 1.5 = 22.5 EC. The attack does 25% recoil damage and has a 10% burn chance. Lets roll it against something it hits for Super-effective damage, say an Aggron.

    Calc: (12 + 12 + 3 [STAB] - 2 [Star Difference] -1 [Sturdy] = 24) * 2.25(4x Weakness) = 54 Damage, 14 recoil, -1Atk/Def, 23 energy, Burn failed, Crit failed.


    Lets try a different combination. Jolly Gyarados using Aqua Tail + Iron Tail vs. Impish Bronzong with Reflect.

    Move Data (open)
    Aqua Tail: The Pokemon surrounds its tail with swirling energized water and smashes it into the opponent.

    Attack Power: 9 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Water | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Iron Tail: The Pokemon coats its tail in iron and sweeps it into the opponent. It can lower the opponent's defense by one (1) stage.

    Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 75% | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: 30% | Typing: Steel | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    Show Hide
    The attacks would combine to have 19 Base Attack Power. The average accuracy is 82.5, and Gyarados' +Speed boost is 10, so the total accuracy is 92.5. Since both moves are priority zero, the attack hits with -2 priority. Iron Tail has more Base Attack Power, but because it is Passive and Aqua Tail is Elemental, the attack is Water-typed and gets STAB. The Energy Cost is thus (7 + 7 - 1 = 13) * 1.5 = 19.5 EC. The attack has a 30% chance to drop the opponent's Defense by one stage.

    Calc: [9 + 10 + 3 (STAB) - 5 = 17] * 1 = 17 damage, 20 energy, Def lower fails, crit fails.


    One more, just to examine priority:

    Lucario with Extremespeed and Bullet Punch vs. Aerodactyl.

    Move Data (open)
    ExtremeSpeed: The Pokemon tackles the opponent with blinding speed. The attack is so blindingly fast it strikes even before other priority attacks. Only Fake Out can strike more quickly.

    Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 2 | CT: Passive

    Bullet Punch: The Pokemon energizes their fist with a steely glow then delivers a lightning-quick strike on the opponent, outpacing their attack.

    Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Steel | Priority: 1 | CT: Elemental


    Show Hide
    Because Bullet Punch is a priority attack, its Base Attack Power is halved, giving the combo a Base Attack Power of 10. The average accuracy of both attacks is 100. The total priority of the combination is +3. Extremespeed has more Base Attack Power, but because it is Passive and Bullet Punch is Elemental, the attack becomes Steel-type. The Energy Cost is (6 + 3 - 1 = 8) * 1.5 or 12 EC. Since Aerodactyl has Pressure, this is increased to 14.

    Calc: (8 + 2 + 3 (STAB) + 1.5 (Star Difference) = 14.5) * 1.5 = 21.75 (22) damage, 14 energy, crit fails.


    Implementations:

    Changes to Rapid Spin and Hazards (open)

    Rapid Spin: The Pokemon spins extremely quickly in place, generating a pulse of air that frees the Pokemon from any grasp the opponent has on it and physically knocking away Leech Seed, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock that are on its side of the arena. If Rapid Spin removes a hazard from the field, the Rapid Spin user will suffer the damage/effects of the removed hazard.

    Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Spikes: The Pokemon spreads spikes and barbs that absorb into the ground. Each time a new Pokemon is switched in, they receive damage from the Spikes. Up to 3 layers of Spikes may be placed on the field. Each additional layer adds to the damage dealt. Flying-type Pokemon and Pokemon with the Levitate trait dodge Spikes. Rapid Spin will remove all Spikes from the user's side of the field, but will cause the Pokemon using Rapid Spin to suffer the damage from Spikes.

    Attack Power: 12/18/24 | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Other| Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Ground | Priority: 0 | CT: Set

    Stealth Rock: The Pokemon thrusts rocks at the opponent that split apart and set themselves at the corners of the field. Each time a Pokemon switches in, the rocks will become active and smash the opponent from all sides before setting down in their corners again.. Multiple layers of Stealth Rock cannot be laid. Rapid Spin will remove Stealth Rock from the user's side of the field, but will cause the Pokemon using Rapid Spin to suffer the damage from Stealth Rock.

    Attack Power: 6-4x resists Rock | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 12 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Rock | Priority: 0 | CT: Set
    9-2x resists Rock
    12-neutral to Rock
    15-2x weak to Rock
    18-4x weak to Rock

    Toxic Spikes: The Pokemon lays down a layer of spikes that inflict varying degrees of Poison status. One (1) layer of Toxic Spikes inflicts Poison, and two (2) layers of Toxic Spikes inflict bad poison. Pokemon with the Levitate trait or those that are Flying-, Steel-, and Poison-type are immune to the effects of Toxic Spikes. Pokemon that would be affected by Toxic Spikes, but are Poison-type, absorb Toxic Spikes, removing them from their side of the arena. Rapid Spin will remove all Toxic Spikes from the user's side of the field, but will cause the Pokemon using Rapid Spin to suffer the effects of Toxic Spikes.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Poison | Priority: 0 | CT: Set


    Changes to Helping Hand (open)

    Helping Hand: The Pokemon releases a bolt of blue energy, doubling the Base Attack Power of another ally’s move in the same action. The minimum increase in Base Attack Power that can be offered by this move is six (6).

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 4 + (Adjusted BAP of Ally's Move / 2) | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 5 | CT: Passive


    Changes to Last Resort (open)

    Last Resort: The Pokemon recalls all of the attacks or commands it has used, and unleashes a desperate attack at the opponent. The move fails if fewer than nine (9) unique actions or commands have been issued by this Pokemon in the battle. Last Resort doesn't count itself as a unique move the first time it is used by a Pokemon.

    Attack Power: 14 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 9 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Set


    Changes to Chatter (open)
    Chatter: The Pokemon yells meaningless statements at the opponent loudly. The inanity of the speech always confuses the foe. This move can hit any single Pokemon on the field, regardless of position.

    Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 5 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: 100% | Typing: Flying | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    Changes to delayed reaction moves (Doom Desire (open)


    Doom Desire: The Pokemon calls down a rain of energy beams from the sky that fall after the first action of the next round. The attack uses any stat boosts/drops the Pokemon had at the time the move was initially called, as well as the Special Attack of the original user. The damage is considered residual, and will faint a Pokemon using Endure.

    Attack Power: 14 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 10 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Steel | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Future Sight: The Pokémon uses its mind to summon a delayed telekinetic attack that strikes at the end of the first action of the next round. The attack uses any stat boosts/drops the Pokemon had at the time the move was initially called, as well as the Special Attack of the original user. The damage is considered residual, and will faint a Pokemon using Endure.

    Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Yawn: The Pokemon yawns loudly, forcing the opponent to think of sleeping and making them drowsy. Once afflicted by Yawn, the target Pokemon will fall asleep at the end of the first action of the following round. Yawn is blocked if a Substitute is presently up, but will not be blocked by a Substitute used after it takes effect. This move will fail if the opponent cannot hear the user.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Wish: The Pokemon funnels its energy into a small white sphere that is released into the sky. At the end of the first action of the next round, a large, energized sphere plummets from the sky onto the Pokemon, restoring HP equal to a quarter of the total HP of the pokemon that used Wish. If the Pokemon is KOed or switched, its replacement receives the boon.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: Energy Cost: 6 + (Max HP / 7.5) | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    Changes to Explosion and SelfDestruct (open)


    Explosion: The Pokemon mechanically, through the mixing of noxious gases, or simply by release of pent up pressure, creates a massive explosion, fainting itself and causing massive damage to the opponent. This attack hits all adjacent Pokemon. This attack causes the user to faint. This move cannot be used unless the user has enough Energy to afford the resulting attack.

    Attack Power: 25 (user faints) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 20 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Force

    Selfdestruct: The Pokemon focuses all of its energy in its care and releases it all at once, creating a huge explosion. This attack causes the user to faint. This move cannot be used unless the user has enough Energy to afford the resulting attack. This attack hits all adjacent Pokemon.

    Attack Power: 20 (User faints) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 15 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Set


    Changes to Mountaineer (open)

    Mountaineer:

    Type: Innate

    This Pokemon is used to scaling and avoiding rocks. It can avoid damage from Stealth Rock when it switches in, and all Rock-type attacks the round it switches in. In subsequent rounds Mountaineer will not evade Rock-type attacks.

    Pokemon with this ability: Sylar, Syclant.


    Changes to Major Status (open)

    Status Implementations:

    Paralysis:

    Every time you are fully paralyzed, your paralysis level reduces by 5%.

    Sleep:

    Sleep will change so that it still has two intensities, but three actual stages.

    Sleep Stage 1: 1/3rd. If inflicted with Sleep Stage 1, a Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up immediately. All other Pokemon will be asleep for 1 action.
    Sleep Stage 2: 1/3rd. All Pokemon inflicted with Stage 2 Sleep will be asleep for 1 action.
    Sleep Stage 3: 1/3rd. If Inflicted with Sleep Stage 3, a Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up after 1 action. All other Pokemon will be asleep for 2 actions.

    Sleep will no longer be weakened after successive sleeps, and will not have a 3 sleep per Pokemon limit. The Sleep Counter will however go down whenever a Pokemon takes 16 or more damage from a single attack (not in a single action, so two attacks that deal 15 damage each in doubles will not reduce the sleep counter.)

    Freeze:

    Freeze will now cause the Pokemon to lose actions like Sleep, and will have two intensities.

    Freeze Stage 1: The Pokemon will be frozen for 1 action.
    Freeze Stage 2: The Pokemon will be frozen for 2 actions.

    The following attacks can be used while frozen and will remove the Freeze condition from the Pokemon (they will still have their accuracy check to determine if they hit the opponent):

    Blast Burn, Blue Flare, Eruption, Flame Charge, Flame Wheel, Flare Blitz, Fusion Flare, Inferno, Lava Plume, Magma Storm, Overheat, Sacred Fire, Scald, Searing Shot, and V-Create.

    If a Pokemon is hit by a Fire attack or Scald while frozen, it will remove the freeze condition.


    Votes:

    Changes to Follow Me/Rage Powder (open)

    Follow Me: The Pokémon creates a distraction, forcing all opponents to target the user with their attacks instead of their intended targets. If a contact attack is redirected towards this Pokemon from another target, it will have half its usual Base Attack Power.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 9 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 3 | CT: Passive

    Rage Powder: The Pokemon unleashes a noxious powder that enrages all opponents, taking over their senses and forcing them to target the user with their attacks instead of their intended targets. If a non-contact attack is redirected towards this Pokemon from another target, it will have half its usual Base Attack Power.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 9 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Bug | Priority: 3 | CT: Passive


    Now, onto the good stuff. Here are the main focal points of this edition’s SotG:

    1. Should something be done about Perish Song in Switch = KO style battles?

    This is a pretty big problem. Sure, U-Turn and Volt Switch were changed to somewhat alleviate the “brokenness” of this, but both SDS and myself agree that Perish Song is at the moment way too good of a move in Switch = KO matches. Essentially, at the moment, a Perish Song user has the ability to kill any Pokemon it wishes to kill in just seven actions (assuming Perish Song is done on the third action). It essentially bypasses all Pokemon match-ups and faints the opponent’s Pokemon in record time. A solution to this problem would read something like this:
    h/o to Alch for this idea.

    2. Should the move “Endure” be changed?

    As of right now, Endure allows the user to survive three straight attacks without being knocked out. As per some battles (See: Battle Hall Challenge: Flora), Endure can easily be taken advantage of, and three free turns (including the move in which Endure is used) without fainting is advantageous enough to warrant a change. While it is true that status moves and weather residual eliminate Endure’s 1 HP limit, the former can be stopped with the ever popular Taunt move, and the latter must be performed if you are going second. A good suggestion for this move is to allow two actions of Endure’s effects as opposed to a possible full round, so it’s on the turn of Endure plus the following action. Endure would simply be unusable if one tried to use the move two rounds in a row. This makes the most sense.

    3. Should Pokemon be allowed to use moves of higher energy cost when low on energy?

    This issue was brought up last SotG. A number of referees have been allowing certain higher energy moves to be used when a trainer’s Pokemon doesn’t have the necessary energy allowance to use it, for a “final attack” flair on battles. Some view it as unfair, as some strategies revolve around energy stalling, and allowing for moves that cause high damage to be done for a lower energy cost than normal is somewhat unfair. What should be done about this?

    4. Should non-attacking moves be permitted usage when a Pokemon is under the effect of Taunt?

    As of right now, a Pokemon who is under the effect of Taunt is still permitted to use non-attacking moves, albeit without the effect of the move and at full energy cost. This is somewhat unfair, as most Trainers use Taunt in order to force the opponent to attack. Moves such as Sucker Punch become much less valuable as a result, and one can use “chill” as an action to literally do nothing and stall. Something needs to be done with this in terms of either codifying specific instances or creating a change so that no non-attacking moves are permitted usage under the effect of Taunt.

    EDIT: The source of this issue: "If a disabled or otherwise disallowed move is ordered, such as a non-attacking move when Taunted, the move costs energy as normal because the Pokemon still exerts the energy trying to use it unsuccessfully."

    5. The ASB Gym League preparations have begun! Thanks RP’s!

    While this will be discussed in a separate thread, just a SotG announcement that the ASB Gym League is beginning preparations for the start of the highly anticipated RP game. I’d like to take this time to thank all of the RP creators (and players) for giving myself and the league’s supporters a good sense of how to make this idea work, and thanks to all the wonderful players who will be putting a lot of time and effort into the gym league, whether as a gym leader, referee, or a challenger! Thanks, and we look forward to kicking off this very exciting event. The opening thread, which will contain the current rules and will house discussion of said rules, will be posted in a few days after a final check through.

    Thanks, and enjoy!
  2. Rediamond

    Rediamond

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    3,168
    1) It takes a lot of value away. I would be fine adding another round, as it's normally possible to score a KO in 3 full rounds.

    2) I would like to withold judgment at this time.

    3) I voiced my opinions last thread. I'm sure someone will bring up the proposed formula, and I strongly support it.

    4) Ban Chill/commands under Taunt. Make it cost five energy. Only real offender in the group.

    5) YESSSSSS!

    Alright, obligatory rant for the thread. This time, it's on dodge. Dodge, at the start of the game, was only possible through priority and creative move use. After the speed boosting accuracy or evasion debate, a dodge command that is almost always useless was added. I would like to say this: bar agility and protect, dodging has died. Solstice vs Engineer (and not a certain other battle for once) will be my example. Volcorona, a relatively fast mon, tried to dodge a Dragonite's, a medium speed mon, attack. The result: 4%.

    I will never use the current dodge command, which is odd seeing how it is a common move in the anime, if an unreliable one. Thus, I came up with two solutions:

    1) Creative Evasion: Dodge command is destroyed. It becomes possible, and maybe mildly codified, to dodge with other moves used in creative ways.

    2) Buff Dodge: Alright, this one's tricky. I came up with a formula I like, and a few toned down versions.

    Main formula: 30+(user speed-attacker speed) energy cost: %/5. The new percent is multiplied to the old accuracy.

    The result? Volcorona has a 50% chance, but it costs 10 energy. A 50% chance is quite high for most people. How do I justify it? 100% is higher. Dodge has always been, and will always be, inferior to protect. Protect normally costs less or the same energy, and has a 100% chance of success, unless used on consecutive actions. Then it's still more likely to dodge than most dodge commands. Even Hypnosis costs less energy and is more reliable. And protect and Hypnosis don't exactly have poor distribution.

    So what's the use? Dodging extremely powerful attacks. Only the most powerful of combos can make the reliable (read: over 70%) dodges more useful, and Protect's six energy will always be better than a dodge for dodging Taunts and the like. Before anyone says "Ninjask is broken," I will clarify. He has a 100% dodge. It costs 20 energy.

    We tolerate protect. I don't see why an inferior move would cause a stir.

    Possible downgrades:

    15+(user-attacker)

    [30+(user-attacker)]/2

    Some statistics:

    1) Volcorona has a 35% chance of dodging Dragonite.

    2) Volcorona has a 25% chance of dodging Dragonite.

    I still think these are too weak to be viable, but I would compromise to either. I still think the first formula makes dodge what it's anime counterpart often is: a move only used in desperation against extremely powerful attacks.



    Other concerns: Dodge-Protect-Dodge is broken.

    Solution: Either increase the energy cost of consecutive evasion moves (Protect, Dodge, Agility, detect, and possibly Dive/Dig/Bounce/Fly) by 5. So, Dodge~Protect would incur a penalty, while Dodge~Dodge would as well. Dig spam would also be slightly more costly.

    Discuss and hate.
  3. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,132
    What I have done in the past regarding issue #3 is apply the following formula to the damage output of the attack:

    I think it's both mathematically fair and logically sound that the Poke would not get quite the total oomph needed to perform the attack as expected.

    An example of this would be if a Porygon-Z used Hyper Beam against Blissey with only 7 energy left:

    damageCalculated=(12+3)*1=15, and so:

    finalDamage=15*(7/9)=11.6~12 damage

    Just a thought.
  4. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,957
    Endure doesn't seem that big of a deal. It's one or two extra moves at most (not inlcuding endure itself) and its fairly situational.
  5. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    2,617
    1. Seems reasonable.
    2. Can't discuss it. Haven't really tested it out yet.
    3. I'm in favor of a "last dregs" requirement-whatever attack you use MUST leave you with -5 or more energy, or it fails entirely before you faint.
    4. The question, however, is this-How exactly does this apply to turn 2 taunts on a mon using non-attacking moves? What would happen?
    5. Hip hip hooray! Time to get Abomasnow on the treadmill...

    I like the first formula. I know Dodge was designed to suck, but this seems to be a reasonable proposal. Besides, I'm pretty sure everyone hates it. When a Volcarona trying to avoid a Stone Edge only reduces its accuracy by 4%, you know something's wrong.

    TBH, I like the idea of a consecutive dodging penalty if Deck considers this.
  6. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    4,936
    1) I'd say no, and not just because I am the main abuser :)

    It is because Perish Song is a completely unique move. There is no other like it, which means that a different set of moves deals with it compared to all of the other niche moves like Metal Burst. Also, because it has very small distribution, people tend not to prepare well for it, which is why it is having the effect it is. It is not because most can't deal with it, because most Pokemon can deal with it - in singles matches, only Kricketune (lol) and Celebi (unavailable) get Perish Song and U-turn, iirc, and none get Soundproof, meaning that they are at no real advantage for most battles and at a disadvantage for many where their opponents do have those. In multibattles, the distribution of Whirlwind and Roar is so huge that it is almost a non-issue with a bit of planning, and most moves in the game require some planning. It is just that people don't seem to think about Perish Song.

    2) It seems powerful, but by the same token I don't think it needs changing. In ASB, everything gets and should have Toxic, at least, which essentially beats that strategy completely. The only thing I might change is the energy KO rule. At the very least, I'd say it should faint at the end of the round if it runs out of energy. Although I haven't actually seen it used, so that is just theorymon.

    3) I like [Damage * Energy / 100] for a formula. It seems the most obvious way of doing things, and it has been suggested a lot. Don't know why it didn't happen last time, tbh.

    4) They shouldn't be able to be ordered if it is known that the Pokemon will be taunted. Otherwise, w/e. What are you planning on doing otherwise, letting them just sit for a while? That would be even worse.

    5) w00000000t!

    As for dodge, I'm not sure. I'd say a minor buff is reasonable, but it shouldn't be to good. I'd also be happy with the return of RP dodging with Extremespeed etc.
  7. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Returns true
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,278
    1.) I agree with the suggested Changes to Perish Song. I've seen the hall battles, etc. That have this used, & it's too broken as it is in Switch=KO. Definitely change it.

    2.) No real opinion

    3.) As a ref, I already enforce a rule that "A move will only work if it has enough energy. If it doesn't, the move will fail & the Pokemon will collapse." It also makes sense a bit imo.

    4.) No real opinion.

    5.) Yay...

    Re: Dodges.) No real opinion.



    Lastly, I want to bring something up. 1v1 Doubles/Triples/Whatever. It's a new phenomenon. I don't have a real problem with it, it is fun to do, but the problem is this: It is easy to exploit & it's easy to raise your counters for your Pokemon. I know this, you know this, most people know this. The fact that you can get 2 EC/4 MC/2 DC for one of your Pokemon in a single 1v1 Doubles match is just cheap & easy-modes development. What should be done? Well, simple. Close the loophole with a rule saying that...
    "In battles where there is more than one clone of the same Pokemon, it only gets 1x Counters, irrespective of how many clones of that Pokemon involved in that battle."
    It's a minor nit picky problem, but we can't let something gain counters ridiculously cheaply. Discuss.
  8. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    4,936
    I agree with Random. I meant to bring it up. No discussion is needed, because otherwise I hereby open a 1v1 100 vs. 100 challenge for whoever wants it.

    Also, Minimize is broken. Permanent +2 evasion? You've got to be kidding.
  9. deadfox081

    deadfox081

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    4,133
    1&2) Lumping these together because they are largely the same issue. Personally I see this as a slight over reaction to someone finding a way to make use of what otherwise were known as niche moves. Endure especially isn't broken, its just exactly what the move is designed to do. You really can't use Flora's Hall as a decent example, because I should know from being on the other side of it that the opponents within the hall often have vastly inferior movesets. There aren't a lot of properly raised and trained Pokemon in ASB who don't have access to weather/toxic/will-o-wisp or the like. The only possible option I see is removing it's priority, so as to make sure that slow Pokemon have to be able to take a hit before getting its effect. Perish Song I haven't exactly been on the other side of, but it doesn't seem like something with enough distribution to be a massive worry.

    3) As I said last time, I am definitely in favour of nerfing of this last ditch attempt thing. Energy conservation should be rewarded and hence it should be necessary to hold onto your strength in order to unleash such high powered attacks. The Damage Done = Damage * current EN/required EN seems the fairest method to me.

    4) I think there are two somewhat different issues here. The ordering of a non attacking move when you are knowingly taunted should not be allowed, flat out. This is akin to ordering your Pokemon to do nothing, which is against the rules. On the other hand the current rules are fine for if you are taunted after issuing actions first.

    Dodge) It's basically accepted knowledge that the dodge command is more or less useless. It depends on how useful we want it to become though. What I do support is codification of alternative dodging methods (particularly Agility dodge). It seems this current time period in ASB is moving away from referee discretions and towards codifying more or less everything, and this is still a grey area not laid out anywhere.

    Cloning battles) Very glad someone else brought this up, because it's something I was waiting to discuss. It basically amounts to a very lazy way of training new Pokemon, and I strongly support the introduction of only one set of counters being dished out, regardless of the number of clones or whatever bs.
  10. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,975
    1) I don't think Perish Song is broken, not even in switch = KO battles. Generally, the strategy of the Perish Song user is to get an advantage, then Perish Song the next Pokémon before dying. While it is certainly a powerful strategy, It must be noted that you can see the incoming Perish Song before sending in the new Pokémon. For example, if I just defeated your Pokémon with Gengar and Gengar is low on life, you know the trick is up. You just need to send in a U-turn/Volt Change user, and then the opponent is screwed. You could tell me that you don't find acceptable being forced to pack a U-turn/Volt Change user, but that's like saying you don't find acceptable being forced to pack a Gengar counter against Gengar.

    So yeah, people just need to prepare for it. There are not that many viable Perish Songers around (we're speaking about roughly 10 FE Pokémon), and it's not a blasphemy to just use one of the 100+ U-turn/Volt Change users to prepare against them.

    2) I never saw Endure in action, so I don't know how broken it can be. But intuitively I'd say a change like the one proposed in the OP is necessary.

    3) If you don't have the energy for an attack, you can't use it (you don't faint either, you just don't act). That's what I'd do.

    4) Yeah, you should not be able to Chill while under the effect of Taunt. Less so to "fail" and use non-attacking moves.

    5) Waiting for it! What "final check" are you talking about?
  11. Arcanite

    Arcanite

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,749
    I'd like to ask for rounding in calculations to be standardised. There are five main ways that refs do it:
    1) Round Normally (.5 = round up)
    2) Alternate (.5 alternates between up and down)
    3) Truncate
    4) Always round up
    5) Keep track of decimals.

    I don't really mind which is used (as long as it isn't #5) as long as it is standardised.
  12. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,958
    1. Athenodoros pretty much said it all for me. I say keep it as it is.

    2. No comment, as I haven't seen the move used once, in any battle I've been in.

    3. I was honestly surprised this wasn't settled last SoTG, since there was so much discussion on it. My opinion is this - let them execute the move, but with an effectiveness penalty. If I try to use Ice Beam, a 7 energy move when I have 1 energy, the damage should be reduced by a significant factor. As should the effect chance, naturally. However, I'm not exactly sure as to how much yet...

    4. No. Attacking moves only, that is the very point of Taunt.

    5. Gyms. HUZZAH! Crap, I need to evolve my Electric types faster...

    Dodges - again, never really used them, no comment.

    Cloning battles - I agree with Random's proposal.
  13. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,000
    1) I 100% Support the change - It's currently broken.

    2) See SoS, I've never seen an issue. Besides, it's Tauntable and Snatchable. Not that difficult to prepare for.

    3) Negate any positive secondary effects, and deal damage equal to (Your EN/Move EN) * BP.

    4) Make it so that you always have the intent to attack whilst taunted, and if you use a move which can't be used when under the effect of taunt, your opponent can select the move used instead. That makes it easily dealt with, yes?

    5) Woop!

    Dodges) Decodify, and allow creative dodges to also hit the opponent as well as block. Brings back the spirit of ASB - Why should a a Hydro Pump used to stop an Ember suddenly not be able to damage?

    Cloning Battles) Get rid of them, or follow IAR's proposal. Either works for me ^.^
  14. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    3,171
    Backing the 1v1 Doubles/Tripels whatever proposal by IAR. Frankly, just like street brawls, they make gaining tokens far far too easy(except they do not have the issue of "numerical advantage").
  15. Objection

    Objection

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,695
    What's wrong with #5?

    Moving on ...

    Perish Song: You have Taunt, U-Turn and Volt Switch to either block or remove Perish Song. In non-singles matches, you have Roar and Whirlwind you can use on a teammate. Between them, those moves have humongous distribution. So ... I'm not sure that Perish Song is broken.

    Endure: I don't have any real experience with the move so I can't comment.

    Using moves that cost more EN than you have: Unless someone can give a logical explanation as to why a pokemon with 3 EN can use a combo that takes 23 EN to perform (I don't buy second wind because real-life second wind lasts longer than the duration of one action), I fully support a limitation of some kind. I like the idea of all non-damaging effects failing (because non-damaging effects are really an all-or-nothing deal - you can't half-Taunt a pokemon) and damage being reduced depending on the difference between your current EN and the required EN.

    Being allowed to use moves you normally can't (due to, eg, Taunt) at the cost of them failing: After the round in which the move becomes impossible to use, use an RNG to determine which legal move they use on any action they try to use an illegal move. For example, if a Tynamo gets taunted on round 1 and then on round 2 it tries to use Thunder Wave twice, then since Tynamo has 3 moves it can still use, you roll out of 3 for each action it uses Thunder Wave and use that to determine which move Tynamo uses.

    Note: I picked Tynamo because it's always going to have the same moves so I don't need to specify, for example, Monohm with (insert long list of moves here).

    Dodge: You know how you can't go Protect - Detect - Protect because Protect and Detect use the same in-game counter. Well, if the dodge formula does get a buff, then the Dodge command should use that same counter (so using Dodge straight after Protect or Detect is an auto-fail, as is using Protect or Detect after a Dodge).

    1v1 doubles, etc: I think only allowing a cloned mon to get 1 EC/2 MC/1 DC or 3 MC regardless of how many instances there are of that mon is a good way of keeping these kinds of battles (which sound rather cool) without them becoming token farms.

    EDIT: Sluggishness: Thank you Alch for reminding me of this. The thing is, 9 BP is still powerful, especially if the move then gets boosted even further by abilities like Adaptability. Plus, a sluggish pokemon right now can still use literally every non-attacking move it has (and in some cases it has a lot) and non-attacking moves can be more of a threat than attacking ones (just look at Gengar). Finally, it makes more logical sense for sluggishness to have an energy-based restriction rather than a power-based restriction, because one of the definitions of sluggish is "lacking alertness, vigor, or energy; inert or indolent."

    However, I recall that on IRC we agreed that 'sluggish' should be redefined as not being able to use attacks that cost more than 5 EN after STAB. I'm pretty sure we said that attacks that cost exactly 5 EN would still be allowed.
  16. Alchemator

    Alchemator my god if you don't have an iced tea for me when i
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,803
    I would like to bring up Hyper Beam and Co. for discussion. Currently they far too few drawbacks, meaning that that Pory-Z in particular can spam them to no end and decimate opponents.

    I'm pretty sure that we agreed on IRC that 'sluggish' should be redefined as not being able to use attacks greater than or equal to 5 EN.
  17. Gerard

    Gerard

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Messages:
    4,332
    1) Gengar is enough to be worried abou this, in Switch = KO, i agree with the proposal that the pokemon has to be there so the perish song takes effect, if you've seen the tournament, you just need to have a slight adventage over your opponent (eliminate one poke) to completely lose since stalling 3 rounds is far from hard with subs, protect, etc...

    2) One thing most people forgot about endure, YOU ENDURE HP AND ENERGY!, that's completely crazy because you can use crazy stuff like pain split when you are at 1/1 to just recover all your health and not faint, you can use this to do anything, an incredibly powerful combo, use perish song (if you're slower), endeavor a full health and then attack, recover twice, etc... and you WON'T faint, even if you should be at -60 energy, you still have 1 energy

    I say, remove the enduring of energy, and *maybe* give the really week moves nobody use (water gun, spark, faint attack (would that never fail)...) a (100%) chance of breaking trough the endure (altough personaly I have no problem with that part)

    This, I wouldn't mind the [Energy/Energy Needed] thing tough

    4) Not really sure, you lose the chill, and in most battle those are restricted, and you lose energy, and you can't really chill, if you aren't fast you'll never be able to use a non-atacking move, and unless you sub you aren't really doing anything, I say let it stay like this since you are NOT doing anything, you aren't moving, you can attack while getting free turns, so i fail to see what's wrong with using attacks that won't do a thing while you're able to do everything you want

    5) Waiting for long, my Psyquic (yeah i say it) pokes are gonna have to prepare

    I agree in the cloning battles, they feel cheap counter farm

    I love this, you could do this based on power, a STABed fire blast could stop a hydro pump, but an ember would never do this, the same with thunderbolt vs thunderbolt, etc...

    EDIT:

    Also, Add Life Orb recoil to the things Magic Guard helps to avoid, seriously there are 5 pokes that get it, all of them would love a hand, and NO, krillowatt wouldn't be as crazy as people make it sound, remember, [Items = No] is a regular sight on most battles so it wouldn't chance Krillowatt in most battles, only the ones that allow items (and just like with Cyclohm you can forbide him), also...

    [​IMG]l..[​IMG]..l[​IMG]l[​IMG]l[​IMG]
    (Against a neutral 3/3 pokemon)

    Krillowatt's +SpA Life Orb Thunderbolt = (10 + 3 + 3 + 1.5) x 1.0 = 17.5
    .
    Cyclohm's +SpA Itemless Thundelbolt = (10 + 2 + 3 + 3) x 1.0 = 18
    .
    Machamp's +Atk Link Cable DinamicPunch = (10 + 3 + 5) x 1.0 = 18 + Confusion
    .
    Porygon Z's +Atk Dubious Disc Tri Attack = (8 + 2 + 3 + 3) x 1.0 + 3.5 = 19.5
    Porygon Z's +Atk Dubious Disc Return = (10 + 2 + 3 + 1.5) x 1.0 + 3.5 = 20
    So no matter where he gets the boost he always hits harder, not even acounting Hyper Beam/Giga Impact
    .
    Gengar's +Spd Link Cable Hex = (10 + 3 + 4) x 1.0 = 17 + Status Damage
    Gengar's +Spd Link Cable Venonshock = (14 + 3 + 4) x 1.0 = 21 + Toxic Damage

    So I fail to see how Recoiless Life Orb will be incredibly broken when you already gave free items to already powerful pokes that hit harder than krillowatt

    And no, the other's Magic Guarders aren't way better either:

    [​IMG] Bad offensive movepool (5 types and hidden power) and paper defenses, at least would give him the chance to use the elemental punches

    [​IMG] 5 Gen, some nice moves, but has to relly on psychic attacks, Focus miss (which he cannot incrase his acc), and shadow ball, other moves are good, but he lacks the movepool of more "generational pokes"

    [​IMG] In the same boat as Reuniclus, ok offensive and supporting movepool with no tutors, average stats

    [​IMG] AWESOME movepool but average Stats, a little help is always nice
    ...
  18. Leethoof

    Leethoof

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    2,450
    Although I'm not skilled enough to comment on everything else, intentionally ordering your pokemon to use non-attacking moves when taunted is rediculous. It completely ruins some major strategies such as Taunt-Metal Burst-Metal Burst or Taunt-Sucker Punch-Sucker Punch.

    A trainer should be unable to order their pokemon to use moves it is physically unable to use.

    Also, will there be gym trainers?
  19. C$FP

    C$FP

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    4,715
    1. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448300 I realize I was doomed from the start and I got some crazy hax in my favor, but it guarantees a second KO with ease. I strongly agree with the idea that the user must be alive for the effects to kick in. BOOM.

    2. I think that Endure isn't all that incredible. Sure, you can get off a combo for free, but it is almost guaranteed that you will have 1 HP and/or 1 Energy, leaving you incredibly vulnerable next round. BOOM.

    3. I think that the Pokeman should be able to use a simple move, like Flamethrower. How difficult could it possibly be for a Pokemon to get off a move ta uses constantly, anyway? However, Explosion, Selfdestruct, OHKO moves (Fissure, Guillotine, etc.), and combos should not be allowed. After all, people are complaining about combos, aren't they? BOOM.

    4. I think that any time a Pokemon is ordered to do something that it can't, it should use Struggle by default. BOOM.

    5. Just that much less time that I have to get my Steel types better than all others... boom.
  20. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,884
    Well, as I have never really come up against Perish Song or Endure, I can't really comment on either, but from the little I have seen the both seem incredibly powerful. Without knowing much though, I would say that reducing their usefulness could be good, but we shouldn't go too far. Some things are supposed to be powerful.

    As for non attacking moves used under taunt, I don't think it should be allowed, with the exception of during the round that Taunt is used. Just like in game, you can fail an action if ordered at the same time, but it is impossible to order them afterwards. I think the simplest solution is to just make ordering such moves illegal while under taunt. A ref should not accept such orders, and the person will have to change their orders to attacking moves. There is no need to punish anyone, just make them follow the rules.

    On the topic of Dodge, I am all for giving it a buff or allowing more RP type dodging. I don't really care what it is, but the current system is just stupid.

    Finally:


    As fun as that battle was for me, I completely agree with this in every way. I am not set on that exact amount, but it really should be changed. At the very least make it based on energy. Even without a reduction in the number, making it energy would restrict non-damaging moves as well, which right now suffer no penalty.
  21. Rediamond

    Rediamond

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    3,168
    I have an idea for Hyper Beam clones. Instead of following it up with "do nothing," we do the same thing we did with Traunt. We force an action wasted after Hyper Beam, but it counts as a Chill. If the Pokemon has no more chills, it counts as a cool down phase like a combo. Simulates the move's in-game effect, while making the turn not entirely useless.
  22. Terrador

    Terrador

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,079
    The Endure problem is actually closely related to the low-Energy move problem - Endure is only broken on the EN spectrum (which seems to be the most worrying) if the ref allows lower-EN execution of moves; if the low-Energy move problem is made such that one can't perform a move without the prerequisite Energy, Endure will suddenly stop being a problem. I, personally, would recommend abstaining from judging Endure until that quagmire gets sorted out.
  23. Maxim

    Maxim

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    3,520
    Well, here's my opinion on the matters:

    1. Perish Song definitely needs to be nerfed in that respect, but I almost argue that it needs to be a bit more since you could theoretically use it and then both pokemon die when the user is low on health. Meh, just a thought.

    2. Endure, yeah it needs to be fixed, my opinion is that it should only happen for two actions like the thread suggestion, this still allows for awesome combacks while not being quite so overpowered.

    3. Honestly, i think that it's a little ridiculous to use a high powered move at low energy. I would be ok if it was maybe 1 or 2 energy over, but using a 20 energy combo at 5 energy is just silly.

    4. Well, I'm not sure about this one. On the one hand it makes certain stratagies unviable, but at the same time, forcing people to attack while taunting every single time is silly because Metal Burst would become a gamebreaker imo.

    5. Finally. Now to plot how to overthrow Rolf as the normal type gym leader....:P
  24. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,975
    About Alch's question about Hyper Beam and similar moves, I totally agree. They're way too powerful as they currently are.

    And seriously, people need to stop whining about Perish Song. The way this entire debate resembles a crazy "I don't wanna deal with it let's ban it" charade like the ones which come up in the Suspect threads every now and then.
    There are 106 fully evolved Pokémon which can learn Taunt, 55 fully evolved Pokémon which can learn U-turn (24 of which learn also Taunt), and 22 fully evolved Pokémon which can learn Volt Switch (5 of which can also learn Taunt or U-turn). This makes for a total of 154 fully evolved Pokémon (plus Abomasnow who's the only Soundproof Pokémon to not learn any of those three moves) which have some sort of answer to Perish Song. There is no good ASB Pokémon with this large number of checks (and before someone whines about "Taunt too slow", not only you're supposed to Taunt the Perish Song user before dying to prevent the PS user from using it before being revenge killed - we'll get to actual speeds later). Also, for anyone who wonder, I'm not counting legendaries, I am counting CAP Pokémon and I'm counting multiple form Pokémon as a one entity.

    Now, the Perish Song users. How many Pokémon learn this move? A grand total of 14 fully evolved Pokémon. Now, let's see their speeds:

    Speed

    110 - Gengar, Kitsunoh
    105 - Mismagius
    95 - Jynx
    80 - Altaria
    75 - Absol
    71 - Honchkrow
    70 - Politoed, Dewgong
    65 - Kricketune
    60 - Lapras
    50 - Azumarill
    45 - Wigglytuff, Marowak

    Damn, Gengar, Kitsunoh and Mismagius are really fast, aren't they? How many Pokémon can outspeed and taunt them? (I will count Prankster Taunt and Soundproof Pokémon regardless of speed for obvious reasons)

    25 FE Pokémon with Taunt can outspeed the base 110 Perish Song users
    30 FE Pokémon with Taunt can outspeed the base 105 Perish Song users
    43 FE Pokémon with Taunt can outspeed the base 95 Perish Song users
    60 FE Pokémon with Taunt can outspeed the base 80 Perish Song users

    ... and I think I can stop here.

    So, in total, there are more than 80 possible choices to switch into Perish Song Gengar or Kitsunoh, and so many more for the less fast users.

    The problem is that so many of you - even many prized members of our committee - often prefer to play with their favourite rather than playing to win. Which in turn gives them a marked hate against any need of adapting to a strategy, even when it is relatively simple like in the case of Perish Song. I know many of you won't just read this post or will but won't change their vote because it pleases them to do so, but I seriously challenge you to prove Perish Song more broken than any powerful ASB Pokémon in spite of these facts.
  25. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    There's a whole shitload of numbers here, and yet they are all irrelevant. The point of the nerf is this.

    A player should not auto-lose to Perish Song because he didn't bring in one of the few (yes when you're talking 600+ Pokemon, 80 counts as few) Pokemon capable of beating it.

    I personally like to use Breloom and Aggron. They're entirely solid and pretty good Pokemon. However, they don't have U-Turn or Volt Switch, and Aggron's Taunt is balls slow (and Breloom doesn't have it at all). Should I insta-lose to Perish Song because I'm carrying these two Pokemon?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)