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Suicune (BW2 Revamp) (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by ScraftyIsTheBest, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
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    There's no better time for me to get this up than now. Anyways, cutting this down to just CroCune because the other two sets aren't worth running with PONY around.

    [​IMG]

    Long Live Suicune

    [Overview]

    <p>Back in the GSC and ADV eras, Suicune was once one of the best Pokemon in the game. A Water typing along with excellent 100 / 115 / 115 defenses make Suicune a defensive behemoth, while access to Calm Mind and a decent 90 Special Attack are icing on the cake. Unfortunately, a lot has changed, and Suicune struggles to stand up to the new metagame. BW2 has ushered in a more fast-paced and highly offensive metagame, which means Suicune's bulk sometimes isn't enough to withstand even unboosted hits. The ever-present nuisances of Ferrothorn and Celebi make it hard for Suicune as well. Finally, Suicune receives stiff competition from the likes of other Pokemon such as Keldeo and Latias as a Calm Mind user in OU.</p>

    <p>However, Suicune does have its perks. Suicune stands strong with its unparalleled mixed bulk, especially in comparison to other bulky Water-types. Its access to Calm Mind and good STAB can make Suicune a strong offensive threat as well. Suicune also benefits from the presence of rain, as its typing allows it to take on many common threats in rain while it enjoys the boost rain grants to its own STAB move. Suicune may have taken a hit in its effectiveness, but it still stands strong as a bulky Water-type that can potentially hit hard.</p>

    [SET]
    name: CroCune
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A relic from the ADV era, CroCune stands as Suicune's only viable set in the BW2 OU metagame. Using its high defenses, good typing, and Calm Mind, Suicune can make for a solid and bulky late-game sweeper. While the sleep mechanics of the fifth generation have somewhat hindered this set's effectiveness, Suicune's unparalleled bulk allows it to survive the turns of Rest, especially when its counters have been removed from the match. Pressure is also a great asset, allowing Suicune to stall the PP of moves such as Thunder and Giga Drain. Boosting Suicune's special stats to formidable levels with Calm Mind is this set's ultimate goal. Scald is a solid STAB move that hits fairly hard after multiple boosts; the burn chance also complements Suicune's ability to take hits. Rest is unfortunately Suicune's only form of recovery, although Suicune has enough bulk to endure the sleep turns. Sleep Talk is in the final moveslot so that Suicune can accomplish either gaining extra boosts or firing off Scalds while it's asleep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread and nature invests fully into physical bulk as Calm Mind boosts Special Defense, hence maximizing Suicune's overall bulk. Leftovers is chosen for its consistent recovery. Politoed is a useful teammate to summon rain to buff the power of Suicune's Scald. Scizor and Weavile can utilize Pursuit to check Latias, Latios, and Celebi, all common counters to Suicune. Alternatively, Choice Band Tyranitar can trap troublesome Jellicent and Latias, although Suicune doesn't necessarily enjoy the sandstorm due to the passive damage. Celebi or Ferrothorn make potent teammates as well, absorbing troublesome Grass- and Electric-type moves that Suicune often struggles with, while Suicune returns the favor by taking on Fire-type moves. The latter also provides entry hazard support, which can be beneficial. Gothitelle makes for a great teammate, trapping and heavily denting Suicune's common counters such as Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Vaporeon. Finally, Magnezone is very useful to remove Ferrothorn from the match.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Suicune has a shallow movepool, it does have some other options it could use. Suicune is perfectly capable of using its access to Calm Mind to take a more offensive approach, but it is generally outclassed by Keldeo in this regard. Ice Beam is a solid coverage move that can handle Grass- and Dragon-types well. Roar is a good move to shuffle the opposing team on more defensive sets. Hidden Power Grass or Electric is perfectly usable if opposing Water-types pose a significant threat to the team. Toxic is also usable to wear down defensive Pokemon. Tailwind is an interesting option for a temporary speed boost to help Suicune and its teammates. Finally, Rain Dance is viable for Suicune to support Swift Swim sweepers.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Grass-types, particularly Abomasnow, Celebi, and Ferrothorn, can endure multiple Scalds and hit Suicune hard with their STAB moves. However, the burn chance from Scald may neuter the threat of the latter. Latias and Latios can take on anything Suicune has to offer and either Trick or bypass Suicune's Special Defense boosts with Psyshock. Thundurus-T is a notable check to Suicune, as its powerful Thunderbolt is a death sentence without several Special Defense boosts. Although Suicune is reasonably bulky, its lack of recovery means powerful attacks such as Terrakion's Close Combat and Salamence's Outrage will take their toll on it. Bulky Water-types, particularly Gastrodon, Jellicent, and Vaporeon, don't mind anything Suicune does and can wear it down with Toxic. Kyurem-B can take Suicune on and reset its boosts with Dragon Tail or smash it with Fusion Bolt. Toxicroak takes nothing from Suicune and can use it as setup fodder. Finally, defensive Ninetales can weaken Suicune's Scald with the sun and Roar it out, resetting any boosts it had obtained.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Suicune gets Water Absorb from the Dream World. This ability will be more useful than Pressure, as it allows Suicune to come in on Water-types such as Keldeo and have some form of recovery aside from Rest. Pressure's PP stalling may be missed at times, but Water Absorb will be the superior ability the majority of the time.</p>
  2. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    Mention gastrodon as a counter because suicune mAkes gastrodon way more powerful and has to rely on HP grass to get past it. Also mention substitute kyurem-b as a check because scald will do pitiful damage and kyurem-b can either setup hone claws or destroy it with fusion bolt.
  3. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Does Suicune even need an update? All it's gotten in this metagame is worse... if it could get worse.
  4. tehy

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    You know, technically Jellicent can taunt it, and stall out Scald PP (Even with pressure).

    Seeing as a lot of the time CroCune can end up in a last-pokemon scenario, Jellicent beating it 1v1 is important.
  5. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I may add them, thanks for the note (I forgot about Gastrodon because of how rare it is on the ladder, lol)

    I honestly think it does need one for some reasons:

    1) Two of the sets on site aren't viable at all. Offensive CM and SubCM are both on site, but with Keldeo being introduced to the competitive scene, those two sets are pretty much unviable
    2) Thundurus-T and some others can beat it
    3) It only points out like, two flaws, lol. I think it needs to harp on the fact that Rest is a lot less reliable, plus it is fodder for shit like Multiscale D-Nite

    Sure, will do
  6. Spirit

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    Not QC, but you need to include an unreleased section. Pressure is virtually useless on suicune and water aborb would give it a handy scald immunity and allow it to set up on things like tentacruel, provided it has a sub.
  7. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Toxicroak is also a counter because it is immune to Scald and can simply use Suicune as pure setup fodder. Celebi with Perish Song is also a counter because it takes a pittance from Scald, and even Ice Beam will do little damage, while it forces Suicune out with the fear of Perish Song. It does not mind being burned by Scald because it has Natural Cure. Politoed works simillarly, but it will hate being burned. Nasty Plot Celebi can also use NP while Suicune uses Calm Mind, take little damage from Scald, and threathen to OHKO Suicune and the rest of the team. Latias and Keldeo can Calm Mind alongside Suicune, and as they will pack Psyshock or Secret Sword, they will always win the Calm Mind war. Also, mention that tricking a Choice item will render Suicune useless.
  8. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Wow, did I really not just post what I wrote two hours ago? Shit.

    Okay so in a nutshell, mention Gothitelle as a good partner because he handles most of Suicune's counters relatively well. Jellicent, Vaporeon, Seismitoed, Gastrodon, and Toxicroak, Ferrothorn, and Perish Song Politoed and Celebi are all at least damaged heavily or crippled by Gothitelle. Suicune still has problems with Latias and Latios, so you may also want to mention Pursuit users. Scizor suits this best, since Politoed's rain reduces its weakness to Fire-type attacks.

    Additionally, you may also want to look into any defensive set that utilizes Ice Beam, since Suicune takes boosted Outrages from Dragons helluva lot easier, though its alternative purpose really depends.
  9. Pocket

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    I seriously doubt CroCune is even Suicune's best set at the moment. RestTalk is really bad in BW2 OU, and it's not really hard to force out Suicune so it loses all its defenses boost and unable to ever wake up for the remainder of the game. It just looks really mediocre atm.

    If I were to use Suicune, I'd probably use it as a tanky phazer to rack up entry hazards damage, a tailwind sweeper, or even a CM tank (ChestoRest CM, SubCM, CM + 3 Atks, CM + Tailwind, etc) that can weaken Keldeo's counter, etc.
  10. ginganinja

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    Id use CroCune over anything else tho tbh. Keldeos biggest problems are potential mons like Celebi that hard wall it, and unfortunately Suicune cannot really beat these mons either. Heck, if I wanted to weaken counters for Keldeo, I would prolly just chuck on a Gothitelle and have done with it. Tailwind Suicune is a nice gimmick (I should know, I tested it and it was my "thing" for much of BW1) but Offensive CM Suicune as well as Tailwind sets didn't really work out that great for me in practise, whereas Crocune was an excellent win condition. It was tremendously frustrating to deal with for many teams as Pressure would PP stall those super effective attacks while Suicune just did its thing.

    Quite honestly, CroCune is basically one of the few sets that Suicune is really good at, but not outclassed in. CM is always going to be bettered by Keldeo, Tailwind costs a moveslot (and in my testing a Tailwind + CM was hard to pull off) and a bulky phazer suffers from severe competition from Vaporeon (Wish + Roar) / Latias (CM Roar). In my experience being utterly raped by Ferrothorn was a really big problem for Suicune and CroCune helped mitigate this via Scald and Rest Talk Pressure combos.

    Note, I am not saying that I would 100% reject other Suicune sets, its just in my testing CroCune was pretty much the only set that I really enjoyed decent success with, and I would require logs / heavy reasoning as to what CM sets have over Keldeo. Id also need reasoning on Tailwind because while I fucking love the move as well as sets around it, it was tough to pull off with Suicune so id need to be convinced there as well.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I agree 100% with ginganinja! CroCune really plays to Suicune's strenghts, and is the only set that doesn't receive direct competition from anything else in OU. I would also like to add that CroCune is meant to be played as an endgame sweeper, as the Pokemon that wall it wall it hard (P-Song Celebi, Toxicroak, Jellicent, Gastrodon. CM Latias), and thus must be removed before Suicune even attempts to go for a sweep.

    As for other sets, i just don't see it. The bulk in offensive sets is nice, but Keldeo is faster, stronger, and has better coverage. Similarly defensive Suicune has merits, but struggles to find a teamslot in a metagame where other bulky waters, such as Jellicent, Tentacruel, RestTalk Gyarados, Politoed, and Vaporeon, just do more things. Suicune may have godlike defences but as we all know, this isn't enough in this metagame, especially without reliable recovery.
  12. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    This is ready for checks now.
  13. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    *sighs* This has been ready for a while. Bumping for checks
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Potentially mention something like CB Tar to pursuit trap Celebi and Jellicent. Sure, SS isn't enjoyable for Suicune, but its less weather dependant than you make it out to be so I think its worth a mention. Its better than using Scizor to try and Pursuit trap Jellicent which is risky as fuck...

    Mentioning Celebi, Latias and Jellicent in the overview sorta being pretty common which really really hurts Suicune.

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  15. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    You'd be wise to put Magnezone support in, too, since Ferrothorn makes your difficult even if you get a burn on it (Leech Seed + weak Power Whips still = losing a lot of damage per turn)
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Overview

    Remove MS Dragonite from the overview, it is not really relevant as SR is pretty easy to keep up making MS a non factor, and Suicune can easily burn Dragonite anyway.

    Add that Celebi is really common, making Suicune's life very hard.

    Set Comments

    Add a mention of how Pressure helps Suicune stall low PP moves such as Giga Drain and Thunder, when combined with RestTalk. For example, max SpA LO Celebi can't 3HKO a +2 Suicune, meaning that Suicune can pp stall it as it only has 8 turns to try and get a crit. The same is true for LO Starmie's Thunder.

    Additonal Comments

    Add Weavile, which checkmates Celebi, Jeliicent, and Lati@s.

    In the OO, add a mention of Tailwind for offensive sets, which differentiates it from Keldeo and makes it somewhat of a team player.

    From the checks and counters remove Sableye, which gets 2HKOed by a +1 Scald when burned and can do nothing notable back.

    Add SubD-Tail Kyu-B, which can outspeed and set up a sub to avoid a burn, start setting up and phaze with Dragon Tail.

    Also mention defensive Ninetales, which takes little from Scald even at +1, roars away, and makes the weather sunny, which rain teams don't like.

    [​IMG]

    QC Approved 2/3
  17. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Okay, thanks for the check Alexwolf. I'll get this written up ASAP.
  18. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    This is now written and awaiting QC approval.
  19. BKC

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    suicune aint that bad guys!

    qc approved 3/3
  20. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    List Thundurus-T a little lower in the Checks and Counters, since it may take quite a bit from Scald, and the Grass-types are arguably better counters (per the definition) to Suicune. Thundurus-T is also a check rather than a counter because of the definitions, so change that too. Additionally, please separate the EV/nature explanation and the teammates into two paragraphs so it's a little more easier to refer to them to the eye.
  21. Lavos Spawn

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    if you're gonna mention rain dance in oo at least give tailwind some love too.

    list gyarados as a check somewhere since the sub version sets up on cune's face until it gets +3 or +1 in rain

    edit: sorry alexwolf i just typed that wrong

    don't forget that common cm users like latias, jirachi, and reuniclus can boost up alongside suicune, and all three have some method with which to beat it (latias has to crit dragon pulse though).

    list abomasnow as a check. wood hammer easily 2hkos, and leech seed is a pain in the ass.

    basically tell me why i should use crocune because right now it sounds really shitty with the immense amount of just plain hard counters that exist for it. also, emphasize how good cbtar support is. sand doesn't really matter, as far as i know there's no relevant 2hkos or 3hkos that only exist when sand is active.
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Small nitpick, but Gyarados needs either to be at +1 in rain or at +3 outside of rain to always break Gyarados's Subs.
  23. ginganinja

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    You (potentially) need to expand on this. Politoed is a pure water type, and is on pretty much every rain team, thus, Politoed and Suicune have similar counters. Suicunes bulk and access to CM might make it handle threats to rain better, idk, but I think claiming its typing lets it beat Rain threats is incorrect, when it shares a typing with many rain staples.

    Also yea mention Tailwind. I gave it a whirl and its pretty average really, but its a good OO option.
  24. PK Gaming

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    How do 72 SpD EVs specifically help you deal with Choice Specs Keldeo?

    Ice Beam should be moved from OO to AC.
    It's nit-picky, but I wouldn't mention Thundurus-T as a counter over defensive walls like Celebi or Ferrothorn and even the lati twins. It's a strong check / soft counter, but Thundurus-T is affected by Stealth Rock, and players generally don't risk something as valuable as Thundurus by switching into Suicune (who at +1, avoids the OHKO from Thunderbolt and deals noticeably / heavy damage with Scald and Thunderbolt respectively).

    I'd mention it after the Lati twins (don't change the writing though)
  25. Lavos Spawn

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    adding onto the stuff pkg said, specs keldeo's going to be using secret sword on you anyways unless it's running hp electric/grass (which most specs versions don't) so the extra sdef doesn't help you check it at all. i see no real reason to dump evs in sdef, you need all the defense you can get with this guy.

    in rain +0 suicune's scald can 2hko thundurus-t. it's not a counter, more of a check that can't safely switch in but can threaten cune out most of the time (once it's at +3 or above though, good luck with that). definitely a lot farther down the list than celebi or ferrothorn.

    uhh...suicune is not comparable to keldeo and slowbro, all three of those pokemon do completely different things. in fact, for what it does (resttalk cm monoattack sweeper) suicune has virtually no competition in the ou tier. of course, the niche it fulfills kinda sucks because of bw sleep mechanics but that doesn't mean it is outclassed by keldeo since keldeo can't run a decent sleep talk set (or can it? no, it can't).

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