1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Sun + Dragons

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by BTzz, Aug 31, 2011.

?

What do you think of the team?

  1. This team sucks, I hate you

    22.2%
  2. This team is decent

    15.2%
  3. This team is good

    26.6%
  4. This team is great

    36.1%
  1. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Messages:
    688
    .::Introduction::.

    Hello Smogon, so this is a sun team I've been working on a while now. I've always been a fan of sun teams, I was one of the few guys running a sun team in 4th gen. So when Drought Ninetales was intorduced I was obviously excited. I started building this team way back at the begining of the BW metagame, but like everyone else I got caught up in abusing all the broken suspects so this team was forgetten. After a brief hiatus from OU, I though I'd go back to building this team since it was already half done and I was running dry on team ideas. This was originally a "normal" sun team until I saw the Enter the Dragon RMT. I decided to play off the idea of eliminating steel-types for dragons, but instead of using Magnezone I wanted to use the power of sun. I never really liked Magnezone, especially since more players are running Shed Shell on thier steels. Sun + Dragons has ways of killing steels without getting boned by random Shed Shell steel types. As for ladder sucess, this team usually hovered around the top 100 when I put time in, which is pretty good considering how bad I am.


    -------------------------------
    Team Breakdown
    -------------------------------

    |[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|

    This is a fairly offensive team that works off of Jirachi's and Ninetales's support. The premise of this team is to eliminate steel types using sun boosted Fire attacks so my Dragons can fire off thier powerful STAB moves. The team utilizes Wish, Safeguard, Will-O-Wisp and Light Screen to support my sweepers. WoW and Light Screen basically give the team some added bulk. Safeguard helps agaisnt stall while Wish keeps the team healthy and often wins me the "shootout" type battles. The thing I love about this team is that it doesnt rely on having sun up to win, I can lose Ninetales on turn 1 and still have a chance at winning. Having my own weather changer is just an added bonus. This isn't exactly your bread and butter Ninetales + 5 Fire/Chlorophyll sweeper sun team so I'll do my best in explaining how I use the teams various members and support. A thing you'll notice about the team is the lack of Rapid Spinner. Any Rapid Spinner I tried felt like a waste of a slot unless your using a Volcarona (who is worth it). Hazards aren't a probelm at all as long as you prevent them from stacking up (which is very easy considering common hazard layers are weak to Fire).


    -------------------------------
    Team Building:
    -------------------------------

    Before I get on with the team building process, I'd like to show you guys a little check list that I've been using for all my sun teams ever since I completed this one. Any sun team I make under this check list has been decent so far, so if your new to sun this might be an easy way to build a team. This is all personal preffernce so it might not work for you. Just keep in mind that you still have to cover threats with the Pokemon you choose. I might make it a little more in depth later lol.

    - Ninetales
    - 1 Chlorophyll Sweeper
    - 1 Non Stealth Rock weak Fire Sweeper
    - 1 Dragon
    - Reliable Rock, and Ground immunities/resistances
    - 1 Wish Passer/Healing Wish-er (this one really depends on your team)

    V1
    |[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|

    Version 1 was pretty good. Ok who am I kidding, it was terrible. It consisted of Specs Ninetales, Latios and Hydreigon along with Choice Band Infernape, Garchomp and Haxorus. This team was extremely fun to use and very fast paced, but I was either 6-0ing my opponents or getting 6-0ed which didn't really sit well with me. I knew this team wouldn't have any real sucess, I just put ot together to test the power of Sun + Dragons. I was very impressed.


    V2
    |[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|

    Mr Garchomp was banned and the team felt kind of slow so decided to add Chlorophyll sweeper. After searching through the movepools and stats of virtually every Chlororphyll sweeper, I ended up with Shiftry. Shiftry turned out to be an amazing addition. He took care of opposing weather inducers and basically won me weather wars. I also switched Infernape to a mixed variant.*This version was better, but still a failure.


    V3
    |[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|

    Heatran was added over Infernape to patch up some pressing weaknesses. Specifically Volcarona and Excadrill. I finally gave up on Specs Ninetales and went with a custom Wide Lens set. The ability to burn stuff was an instant step up in sucess for the team. I also gave a Scarf to Latios and gave HP Ice to Shiftry to deal with Thundurus and Landorus. This version of the team was pretty good, but I couldn't consistantly win with it.*


    V4
    |[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|

    This is the current version of the team. The team really needed some support so Jirachi was added over Hydreigon (who is awsome by the way, I really wish I could have found a spot for him). With Jirachi I got Screen, Stealth Rock and Wish support. These things brought the team to a whole new level in terms of sucess. The team was finally good!


    V5
    |[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|

    Thanks for the rates guys! After some testing I found DD Dragonite to be extremely effective over Haxorus for reasons posted a little later in the RMT. It's pretty noteworthy that Salamence was also good, but the Dragonite's extra bulk put him over the edge for me. I also made some EV and moveset adjustments such as Stealth Rock on Heatran and Iron Head on Jirachi.

    V6?
    Testing:
    - Infernape>Heatran
    - HP Grass on Heatran



    -------------------------------
    In-Depth Look
    -------------------------------


    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Ninetales (F) @ Wide Lens
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Safeguard

    ...........
    Comments:
    Obvious Ninetales is obvious. I don't know why people think Ninetales is so bad. I mean Tyranitar and Politoed are obviously the more reliable weather inducers, but Nintales does have it's advantages and if you play it right you can make other weather inducers look like little girls. The amount of Ninetales sets I've tried and srapped is ridiculous. After a years (/exgagerting) of looking through Ninetales movepool and tweaking EVs, I've finally settled on Wide Lens Ninetales. Wide Lens Ninetales is kind of a hybrid between a sweeper and support Pokemon. It's a bit remenisant of Celebi's signature Tinkerbell set. With this set Ninetales can punch massive holes in the opponents team with sun STAB boosted Fire Blast, while being able to support it's teamates by crippling offensive threats/walls with WoW or protecting my teamates from status with Safeguard. Fire Blast sits at a reliable 93.5% accuracy with the Wide Lens boost. Having to use Flametrower on offensive sets is pretty lame, while a Fire Blast miss can cost you your Ninetales. Wide Lens gives Ninetales the power of Fire Blast, with the consistancy of Flamethrower. Sun boosted Fire Blast still packs quite the punch even with Ninetale's lack luster specail attack stat. Wide Lens also boost Will-O-Wisp's shaky accuracy to 82.5%, which is amazing for such a crippling move.

    Hidden Power Fighting and Safeguard are basically filler moves. HP Fighting hits Tyranitar and Heatran on the switch. The only time I ever find myself using HP Fighting is once everything I want burned has been burned. I always try to burn Politoed or Tyranitar before hitting them with HP Fighting. The damage from the two moves really racks up and often times wins me the weather war. I was stumped on what I should use for the 4th slot, but after stumbling across Katakiri's RMT I decided to go with Safeguard. After using Safeguard on some of my teams, I can confirm that it's a very useful tool in the metagame. Safeguard is a great move to have on Ninetales, especially since I don't have a cleric and it protects my team from Toxic Spikes and random Scald Burns. The EV spread allow me to out-speed Mamoswine and Lucario.

    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Shiftry (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 140 Atk / 156 SAtk / 212 Spd
    Mild nature (+SAtk, -Def)
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Sucker Punch
    - Low Kick

    ...........
    Comments:
    Shiftry is probably the teams mvp. He's carried the team to victory on many occasions. Shiftry is THE BEST CHLOROPHYLL SWEEPER. Yup that's right, better then Venasaur and weakSawsfuck (just kidding Sawsbuck is pretty good). Yeah it's more frail then an emo kid, but once he gets a safe switch in his perfect coverage allows him easy sweeps Venusaur could only dream of. The main reason Shiftry is my Chlorophyll sweeper of choice is his ability to OKHO opposing weather inducers. For this reason, I often lead with Shiftry. Leaf Storm OHKO's every variant of Politoed and Hippowdon while Low Kick OHKO's the bulkiest of Tyranitar. Low Kick obviously drops Abomosnow, but I don't usually risk this since Scarfed Abomosnow is so common. The only weather inducers Shiftry loses to are Scarf Abomosnow and Scarf Tyranitar. I really don't have to fear ScarfTar since the opponent never leads with them to preserve the surprise. If you wondering about Scarf Politoed, Modest Ice Beam will always fail to OHKO Shiftry while the latter can OHKO back with Leaf Storm. Shiftry won't be sweeping much after he takes an Ice Beam, but the weather advantage is well worth it. You can find all the clacs a bit latter in the RMT.

    Of course Shiftry isn't just limited to taking out opposing weather inducers, he can also take out some of OU's biggest threats. Low Kick turns Heatran into fodder while Sucker Punch OHKO's Lati@s, Starmie and Chandelure. Hidden Power Ice hits Thundurus, Gliscor and opposing Dragons. Shifty also does well against common deffensive cores. He can break through Ferro-Cent and can do a number on Solums Core. I can go on and on listing all the stuff Shiftry wrecks, but I think I've made my point. Shiftry is a boss. Nasty Plot or Swords Dance aren't needed for a set like this. As mentioned, I usually lead with Shiftry and a set up lead is kind of dumb. Shiftry can hit hard right off the bat thanks to Life Orb and strong dual STAB's. The given EV spread along with the Chlorophyll speed boost puts Shiftry at a blistering 500 speed stat, just enough to out-speed everything up to base 60 Scarfers which apparently exist.
    dem calcs (thanks Blatreutka!) (open)


    Leaf Storm vs. 4/0 Neutral Nature Politoed (144.1 - 170.2%)

    Leaf Storm vs. 252/252 Positive Nature Politoed (87.5 - 103.1%) 19.9% Chance to OHKO, but not many people run this set.

    Modest Scarf Politoed'd Ice Beam vs. Shiftry (83.5 - 98.4%) Never an OHKO as a lead. Most people think it OHKOs so they stay in.

    Low Kick vs. 4/0 Neutral Tyranitar (139.2 - 163.7%)

    Low Kick vs. 252/0 Neutral Tyranitar (117.8 - 138.6%)

    Leaf Storm vs. 252/0 Neutral Hippowdon (126.2 - 149%)

    Leaf Storm vs. 252/252 Positive Hippowdon (97.1 - 114.8%) 83.6% chance to OHKO

    Those are the three main weather abusers and it will only lose to prediction, Scarf Tyranitar, or a low damage roll on the lesser used Hippowdon set. Shiftry also works against some top threats even outside of sun.

    Low Kick vs. 4/0 Neutral Heatran (76.2 - 89.8%)

    Sucker Punch vs. 4/0 Neutral Latios (102.1 - 121.2%)

    Sucker Punch vs. 4/0 Neutral Starmie (113.4 - 134.1%)

    Sucker Punch vs. 4/0 Neutral Chandelure (107.6 - 126.7%)


    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 SAtk / 12 Spe
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stealth Rock

    ...........
    Comments:
    Heatran checks a vast array of threats for my team. Excadrill's ban also meant I could now run Leftovers on this set :D. Heatran is a monster under the sun. Heatran may lack my previous member Infernape's raw speed and power, but Heatran makes up for that in bulk. Getting a safe switch in is a peice of cake for Heatran with all those immunities and resistenses. The set is pretty standard so i'll just tell you about its role on the team. Heatran is basically a right hand man to Latios and Dragonite by helping them sweep. Heatran allows me to spam Outrages and Draco Meteors with my dragons without having to worry about steels. Heatran is very effective at elinating opposing steels since Skarmory, Bronzong, or Ferrothorn (all steel types really) can't do much to him aside from popping his Balloon. Heatran also soften ups opposing dragons with HP Ice so my own don't have to compete with them. Heatran along with Latios form a great offensive duo. The two special attacking juggernauts soften each others counters, giving one of them the ability to sweep late game while the opponents special walls are coughing blood form taking reapeated hits from Latios or Heatran.

    Stealth Rock is a breeze to set up with Heatran with that nice bulk and ability to force a ton of switches. I don't miss out on any key KO's without Stealth Rocks, but they're always nice to have as they keep threats like Volcarona and Thundurus at bay. Flame Charge would have been awsome on Heatran, but without Stealth Rock opposing Multiscale Dragonite are an absolute chore to take down. Not much can stop the offensive side of this set. Blissey or Snorlax wall this set to hell and back, but they wont be walling much of any thing after taking a beating from Latios. With the sun boosting Heatrans Fire STAB I could invest a little more into bulk to take resisted hits better. I feel Heatran values bulk more then speed on this team and once my opponent sees the power of this set, they'll just assume i'm running max speed so I'll still force the same switches.


    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Dragonite (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Fire Punch
    - Roost

    The new first part of my dragon duo. All the switching I had to do while using Haxorus was kind of annoying and I felt like a set up sweeper would really strive on this team so Haxorus ended up bitting the dust for a Dragon that truly loves the sunlight. Dragonite gains a dual STAB combination only resisted by Heatran. A sun boosted Fire Punch leaves Dragonite with little to no counters. Bronzong and Skarmory really don't appreiciate a +1 Fire Punch under the sun. Sun also preseves that oh so important Muliscale by nulifyIng sand or hail. Multisale + Roost make Dragonite a bitch to take down, especially when it's setting up DD's in your face. Sun + Dragons provides an optimal environment for Dragonite setting up.

    With Light Screen, Safeguard, Lum Berry and burns being thrown around, Dragonite getting that +2-3 is never a problem. Lum Berry is useless sometimes with Safeguard, but it allows me to run Outrage over Dragon Claw without fear of confusion the first time around. I'm a real fan of Outrages extra power and along with Lum Berry, I'm able to bluff a Choice Band set. The Lum also gives Dragoite some breathing room against stuff like Jellicent and Slowbro. I would have really liked to run Extreme Speed on this set since the team lacks real priority atttack, but Roost is nesasary to heal off that Stealth Rock damage.
    Haxorus (open)

    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Haxorus (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rivalry
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Dual Chop
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide

    ...........
    Comments:
    The first part of my dragon duo. I decided to go with shiny Haxorus because it kind of looks sun burned... Anyways, I'm sure you all know how hard Choice Band Haxorus hits. While building this team I knew I wanted Haxorus on it. This team creates the prefect environment for Haxorus. With the opponents Steel-types constantly being forced out on to Stealth Rocks or taking hits from Latios, they become east picking for Haxorus. I also wanted Haxorus on the team due to my terrible prediction skills. I know Choiced Pokemon usually take more prediction, but with Haxorus all your really doing is spamming banded Outrages. I use Rivalry over Mold Breaker since getting a power boost means even less prediction for me ^-^. I'm not really a fan of an ability that I can't fully abuse, but the attack boost is really worth it as it finishes off some key KO's. Changing your Pokemon's gender to female seems to be the new trend (looking at you female Machamp) thus Female is the gender of choice for this Haxorus. Haxorus's role is to simply come in and punch holes in the opponents team, recive a wish, rinse and repeat. When I'm seeing a non weather team I usually lead with Haxorus just to weaken something right off the bat.

    The movset is pretty straight forward. 9 out of 10 times I'm mindlessly spamming Outrage with Haxorus, but I guess the other moves deserve a mention. Since im not running Mold Breaker Earthquake becomes even more useless, but I can still hit stuff like Jirachi or Metagross. Rock Slide is only ever used in a late game situation where I need to flinch something to death. Dual Chop is probably the last move you'll ever see me using due to it's nasty accuracy. The only time I've used it is against those annoying Sub-Disable Gengars who think they can troll my Outrage.



    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Psyshock
    - Trick

    ...........
    Comments:
    The second part of my dragon duo. Latios's recognition as Uber's material last generation isn't really surprising. With reasonable bulk, a great special attacking stat coupled with ridicululsly strong dragon STAB and the blazing fast speed stat of 110, leaves Latios with many roles to fill on the team. Latios functions as a revenge killer as well as a late game sweeper. His great speed stat means that he outpaces all Dragon after a Dragon Dance thanks to his Choice Scarf. Latios's ability to kill fast Dragons is really important since I have a pretty slow dragon of my own in Haxorus. The reason I use Choice Scarf over Choice Specs is so I can kill Pokemon like Choice Scarf Terrakion (who is a real pain in the ass) or Pokemon that can set up on Jirachi. As mentioned earlier, Latios along with Heatran work in tandem to rough up each others counters. Latios is usually the one doing all the dirty work for Heatran due to Latios's speed and power without having to set up along with the ability to hurt Blissey with Pyshock. Latios is a perfect fit on this team. Latios's usually counters have a really tough time aganist this team. Tyanitar is always at risk of getting burned or getting smashed by Shiftry while Scizor has no buisness switching into a sun boosted HP Fire.

    His moveset is pretty standard. Draco Meteor coming from a base 130 special attack stat hits anything hard, seeing as how there a yet to be any 4x resistors of Dragon's. Hidden Power Fire makes my opponents think twice about sending in their steel to take a Draco Meteor as it is a clean 2HKO on the bulkiest of Bronzong. I have Pyshock over Psychic to hit Blissey and Terrakion (who might have a sand storm special deffence boost). Pyshock basically turns Latios into a psuedo mixed sweeper, which is great once I trick away the Chioce Sacrf. Trick is a great move. It breaks down stall by crippling wall and ocassionally trolling those Eviolite users. Trick also turns Latios into a free sweeper, which can be really useful late game.


    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 240 HP / 160 SDef / 72 Def / 36 Spe
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Light Screen
    - Iron Head
    - Wish
    - Body Slam

    ...........
    Comments:
    Jirachi is the glue to the team. It provides support that the team needs to function properly. Jirachi's task aren't easy to fufill, but it often gets the job done. Light Screen works in conjunction with Ninetales Will-O-Wisp, cutting the damage of both physical and special attacks targeted against my team. Pass a Light Screen to Latios or Haxorus and suddenly there solid switch ins to rain sweepers like Rotom-W. Then there's Jirachi's Wishes. Passing a Wish basically gives me another shot at sweeping with baically everyone on my team, they're espeocially important since the rest of my team aren't packing Leftovers or a Recovery move. Wish Jirachi's big HP stat, your usually looking at a 50% heal rate when passed. Even though my team is pretty fast paralysis via Body Slam is always appreciated. Paralysys allows my slower dragon Haxorus the abilty to actually out-speed stuff that can one shot him (like Latios).

    Iron Head is standard fare on Jirachi. It allows Jirachi to recive it's own Wishes safely and it provides me with a last ditch way of pull out a win by flinching stuff to death.*This Jirachi may seem like set up fodder, but nothing is really safe staying setting up on Jirachi with Body Slam. Jirachi can lure in Excadrill and Landorus who Jirachi can possibly paralyze and cripple for the rest of the battle. Latios's Draco Meteor stills fails to 2HKO with this EV spread and since I have Light Screen boosting Jirachi's special deffence, I could invest a little into deffence to take stray Stone Edges or Rock Slides better.


    -------------------------------
    Export to Text
    -------------------------------
    PHP:
    Ninetales (F) @ Wide Lens
    Trait: Drought
    EVs
    216 SAtk 68 SDef 224 Spe
    Timid Nature 
    (+Spe, -Atk)
    Fire Blast
    Will-O-Wisp
    Hidden Power [Fighting]
    Safeguard

    Shiftry 
    (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs
    44 Atk 252 SAtk 212 Spe
    Lonely nature 
    (+Atk, -Def)
    Leaf Storm
    Hidden Power [Ice]
    Sucker Punch
    Low Kick

    Heatran 
    (F) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs
    76 HP 232 SAtk 200 Spe
    Modestnature 
    (+SAtk, -Atk)
    Fire Blast
    Earth Power
    Hidden Power [Ice]
    Stealth Rock

    Dragonite 
    (F) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs
    72 HP 232 Atk 212 Spe
    Adamant nature 
    (+Atk, -SAtk)
    Outrage
    Fire Punch
    Dragon Dance
    Roost

    Latios 
    (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs
    4 HP 252 SAtk 252 Spe
    Timid nature 
    (+Spe, -Atk)
    Draco Meteor
    Hidden Power [Fire]
    Psyshock
    Trick

    Jirachi 
    Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs
    240 HP 160 SDef 72 Def 36 Spe
    Careful nature 
    (+SDef, -SAtk)
    Light Screen
    Iron Head
    Wish
    Body Slam
    -------------------------------
    Conclussion
    -------------------------------
    Well that about it. Thank you for taking the time to read this RMT! I hope my gammar wasn't to bad ^-^". It was a pleasure building the team as well as writing and formatting this RMT. I cannot think of any more little tweaks to improve this team further which is where you guys come in. In really looking forward to improving the team, so even if it's the smallest thing, please leave a rate if you stop by! Also feel free to try the team yourselfs!
  2. bluemon

    bluemon

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,519
    have u thought about having a ddmence over latios?
    i havent tested the team yet, but i know with a sun boosted fireblast/flamethrower, its gunna be a monster.

    i say this because theres only one thing benefitting from the sun.
    sure latios has boosted hp fire but i think ddmence will be a great addition. i think you should add another sun abuser, but thats just me. maybe.... exeggutor with dual screens with dd mence? (im asuming exeggutor learns screens cuz its psychic)
  3. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,792
    Hey man its a really solid team you have here and I really love your presentation so congrats on that!

    Looking over your team you seem to have a lot of things covered but I can see you having a few problems with fighting types. Infernape is always going to be tricky for you as it wrecks everything with its twin STABs. Latios is your best switch in but Overheat (or say, Flame Blitz) will do a fair amount of damage, U-Turn also threatens to take a chunk out of its health too. Granted, Infernape usually runs Life Orb so I guess you can play around it however, its still threatening large portions of your team.

    Terrakion is also a bit of an issue, especially if its Double Dance with Balloon. Rock Polish will let it outspeed and nail Latios with Stone Edge and from there its got a decent chance of doing serious damage to what you have left. Lastly, Sub + CM Latias can also be a little bit of an issue. I guess Jirachi can set up a Light Screen and go to Haxorus however Dragon Pulse still does a massive amount (its a 2KO I believe) so I guess you have to go to Shiftry, Sac it to break the sub, then bring in Latios and hope to hell it stays in so you can trick it.

    To fix this I would like to suggest a standard CM Reuniclus with Psyshock over Psychic to help counter there threats. Reuniclus still does a decent job at checking both Terrakion and Infernape, as well as beating Latias in a CM war if you run Psyshock. Personally, I would give it a try over Jirachi. I know that leaves you without a Stealth Rocker which is rather controversial, as well as a Wish Passer which you stated you liked. Its a tough choice and I leave it up to you if you want to give it a try.

    Regardless, congrats on making a wonderful Sun Team
  4. Razza

    Razza

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    454
    Hey this is a pretty cool team that shiftry set looks badass.

    In my opinion scarf latios isn't very good it loses latios big reason to use his huge power. Because of this I'm going to suggest a LO set with dm psyshock hp fire and recover, because as you say you aren't that good at prediction and this helps out, also being able to switch moves to roast a stell with hp fire is invaluable. Scarf psyshock isn't doing much to blissey anyway.
    With that in mind if you miss the speed of a scarfer you could also use scarf haxorus, he still packs a punch and is very unexpected as people bring in latios to revenge only to be outsped and koed.

    Also I'm going to say flamethrower on heatran to minimise hax misses as sun means it's still going to pack a punch.
  5. Danilo

    Danilo
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,289
    First of all, great team. Secondly, idont see the advantage of body slam over thunder since Gengar can switch into jirachi easily. Also, I feel you should run iron head over light screen simply so that your jirachi isnt set up fodder for the likes of gliscor and gengar. Finally, dont run Latios AT ALL. With the rise of pursuit users such as scizor and tyrantiar, your latios isnt really going to be doing any kinds of switching. Maybe a choice scarfed hydreigon could solve that problem. overall, great team.
  6. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    802
    Hey there, great team you got there. I will be doing a rate on each specific Pokemon.

    Ninetales: Now I like this set. Spreading status is a great platform for such a Pokemon when it's offenses dull compared to other Fire types. Now since you said that HP Fighting is really filler, and since Ninetales is a defensive Pokemon and Shiftry can already handle your Tyranitar problem well, I suggest running Toxic or Protect to hit walls that need more continuous damage (Blissey, Porygon-2) or stall out Burn Damage, respectively.

    Shiftry: Now I realize that Shiftry is meant for breaking down weather inducers and win weather wars, but I have a set for you that should give you a bit more "oomph" to break down those pesky walls.

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Shiftry@ Life Orb
    move 1: Growth / Nasty Plot
    move 2: Energy Ball / Giga Drain / Leaf Storm (really personal preferance here, order of moves doesn't matter.)
    move 3: Dark Pulse
    move 4: Brick Break / Focus Blast
    EVs: 92 Atk / 252 SAtk / 168 Spe
    Nature: Hasty (+Spe, -Def)


    This set is much more efficient as you can break down walls easier, and you don't lose much coverage as Dark Pulse + Fighting Attack + Grass Attack covers everything but Heracross (which you shouldn't be up against anyway).

    Heatran: Nothing to say here.

    Haxorus: Now I know that you can't ignore the sheer power of Choice Band Haxorus, it is actually pretty unreliable in the sense that Confusion hax will always do more than a quarter of your health. I suggest using a simple Life Orb set, or take my advice on Latios as having two choice Pokemon is very unreliable. I also suggest changing to a Jolly nature as you need as much speed as you can, and Haxorus is already very powerful as is.

    Latios: Like I said above, having 2 choice Pokemon is very unreliable, especially if they are what your team is based around. I suggest running Life Orb, as not many non-Scarfed Pokemon can outspeed Latios as is.

    Jirachi: I just don't like having Light Screen without Reflect. I don't know why, it just seems weird to me. So, I suggest replacing Light Screen with Iron Head to make sure that Jirachi can't be setup fodder. Other than that, fine set.

    Other than all the things I mentioned, this is a fantastic team and I will be using it in the later days.
  7. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Messages:
    688
    Thanks for the rates everyone!

    @ bluemon: DD Mence sound interesting. I'm not sure if I'll be able to handle 2 Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, but it worth a shot! Also, the thing about more sun abusers is that the team becomes way to reliant on Ninetales staying alive which isn't ideal .

    @ ginganinja: Thanks :). Your spot on with the Infernape/Terrakion problems. Infernape is a bit easier to handle like you said and Terrakion doesn't get much oppourtunity to switch in and set up. If it does set up I'll just have to play smart :/. Latias is a bit annoying, but like you said they're are ways of dealing with it. Heatran can also take on Latias to some extent, provided that it hasn't set up any CM's. CM Reuniclus sounds like a great suggestion, I'll deffinitly try it out!

    @ Razza: Thanks :). Without Scarf Latios my team kind of has trouble with the Genies, Scarf Terrakion and some set up sweepers. LO Latios and Scarf Haxorus sound promising though so I'll try them out! I really like the extra power of Fire Blast and Heatran is pretty bulky so he can afford to miss sometimes.

    @ m2c2: The thing about Body Slam and Thunder Wave is Body Slam misses out on Ghost-types, while T-Wave misses out on Ground-types. I feel grounds are a lot more common so I use Body Slam. Also Thunder (if that's what you meant) has 50% accuracy in the sun. Now regarding Latios, I'll just quote something I wrote in the RMT.
    Also, Hydreigon adds a Fighting weakness that's kind of hard to cover :/

    @ Paradoxus: Thanks :).

    Ninetales: Toxic and Protect both sound like great suggestions. I'll try them! Not sure, but I think Toxic might clash a litte with WoW. For example i'd much rather have a Tyranitar burned then poisoned at times.

    Shiftry: That set looks cool, but the problem with it is that it needs to set up to be able to KO stuff. Like I said I like to lead with Shifrty and setting up on the first turn isn't very smart :p

    Latios/Haxorus: I'll try LO Latios or Haxorus! p.s Jolly Haxorus misses out on a lot of OHKO's without Adamant.

    Jirachi: I have only Light Screen on Rachi because if Ninetales burns something, it's attack will be cut so there's no need for Reflect.
  8. Rofellos

    Rofellos

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    306
    Hooray for shiftry! Aha you went back to ou lol but to comment on shifty you know he is frail but to take a small cliP from the new set suggested to you what if oh had giga drain over leaf storm? He has good power and might as well have some recovery to continue his reputation.
  9. Con Artist

    Con Artist

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2011
    Messages:
    28
    i was about to rate the first version thinking that was the team and i was gunna be like "LOLOLOL ICE" but then it said there were versions and it sorta pissed me off :/

    and i just need to know somethin, how come in every latios set i've seen they run psyshock instead of psychic? is it a way to get around special walls? turning latios into a mixed sweeper? thats my suspicion, so yeah, please dont leave me in the dark? :')
  10. alphatron

    alphatron Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,443
    ^Giga drain on a frail pokemon is useless. Shiftry's SpA isn't high enough to kill things with a base 75 power move, and the health he heals back will not save him from dying in one hit to powerful sweepers. Now, instead of killing specstoed, he gets ohko'd be ice beam.
  11. emirinho

    emirinho

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    295
    you need to remove one of the choices and maybe put swift swim kingdra instead of latios to counter rain teams..
  12. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,166
    Why would a sun team want a swift swim Kingdra?

    Personally I have found Salamence to be the best sun dragon. Not only does it do a fantastic job at checking other sun teams. But both DDMence and Mixmence plow through everything in sight. Having two choiced dragons might not be too hot an idea. I suggest testing Mence in place of Latios as they offer similar resistances.
  13. emirinho

    emirinho

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    295
    well kingdra can kick in when ninetales is down and drizzle is up
  14. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Messages:
    688
    Thanks for the rates. I don't think Kingdra is the way to go for coutering rain as it becomes dead weight when I'm not facing a rain teams. Also, you guys are forgetting that Latios has Trick so it isn't choiced for long. Even if Latios didn't have Trick there would be nothing wrong with 2 choiced Pokemon. I've seen sucessful teams use 3-4 choiced pokemon.

    Anyways I posted my thoughts of Salamence earlier.
  15. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnus
    CAP Head Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,799
    This team reminds me of something I've seen before =P.

    But anyways, nice job! I like the looks of this team. Shiftry looks especially cool, but be wary of Mach Punch ruining your streak. I would recommend tossing out Jirachi for a spinner. What about Forretress? He can give you some of your own hazards while giving you momentum through Volt Switch. Furthermore, I would switch out Haxorus for a dragon that truly enjoys the sunlight. Dragonite or Salamence could fulfill that role. Forretress would help them even more by removing Stealth Rock and preserving Multiscale/health.
  16. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Messages:
    688
    @ Birkal: lol yeah, when you posted your team I was kind of disapointed because we had similar a concept and I was afraid people would think I was copying you when I've been working on this team forever!

    Anyways I tried Forrtress over Jirachi (Forrtress learns Light Screen lol) and it was pretty good, I was kind of missing the wish support though and it left the team more open to CM Reuniclus. I'll experiment with more sets though. I'm actually heavilly testing D-Nite right now and I'm really liking it so far!
  17. KyogreBlue

    KyogreBlue

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Messages:
    27
    I always love the originality of teams that you come up with. :)
    I'm not the best at rating teams, but I think this team is a bit weak to entry hazards. Since your choiced pokemons and ninetails rely on switching around, you take quite a bit of damage. Your jirachi has wish to heal them, but if he is gone, then your team lacks reliable recovery. Have you considered a magic bounce Xatu? He also has wish, can paralyse with T-wave, and the bast part is that he can bounce back hazards.

    Great job on making this cool team! (It looks really fun to play with)
  18. Captain Dragan

    Captain Dragan

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2011
    Messages:
    147
    First of all, comgratulations with the RMT, in my opinion it looks very well made and obviously the team it displays is very good too. I didn't carefully read all the rates of the others above, so i may repeat something they said.

    So. Unfortunately i'm having a hard time finding clear problems in this team...
    Just some minor things then.
    -Consider Surf on Latios, as in general Psyshock has poorer coverage being Psychic-type, but that's not really inportant.
    -Consider Brick Break or X-scissor on Haxorus. Still pretty unimportant.
    -Consider giving Heatran a Modest Nature, as Flame Charge should speed you up significantly after just one use, and modest allows you to hit harder. Still not very important.
    -You could use Nature power over Low Kick, as it becomes a pseudo-Earthquake if i'm not mistaken. That's not very important though imo.

    Wait, this is important... what about... yeah, changing Jirachi? give your team another type of glue? You seem to be looking for a Wish-passing light-screener-thingy. It's not necessary needed, and Jirachi does serve as a check for Dragon-type moves (which Heatran should be able to sponge too), but you could go for Alomomola, or Blissey (Chansey..). They set up Light Screen too, and pass on much, much bigger Wishes.

    Some set like this could work for all of em, I guess.
    Poke@Leftovers
    252 HP/252 Sp.Def/4 whatevs, Careful Nature (Alomomola won't be doing shit with Scald in the sun anyways?
    -Light Screen
    -Wish
    -Toxic
    -Protect/Scald for Alom/SR for ChansyBlissy

    I guess this could be called a rate... i just wanted to rate this (imo) very good team shown on a very well-presented RMT, but my rate sucks a bit, as i'm not really able to find something useful to say.

    GL,
    Cap'n
  19. Danilo

    Danilo
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,289
    Oh yea, i meant thunder wave. But I still believe that you should take out latios for hydreigon so that tyranitar and scizor can't just revenge you when you use draco.
  20. Eos

    Eos some people just want to see the world burn
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    742
    Hey man, excellent team! I've been laddering with this team for a good amount of time today, and I've done quite well with it. I know you already know this, but it demolishes sand teams when predicted correctly; which is basically just leading with Shiftry, getting the OHKO on ttar, and then switching to Ninetales to eliminate the offensive abilities of Excadrill and Landorus. I've also had success against the ever-present rain teams with -again- Shiftry as my lead. So props for being able to do that nicely.
    However, this team has some problems against Tabloo. To fix this, you can switch Ninetales' set to Fire Blast / WOW / Hidden Power Ground / SolarBeam. This set allows you to take care of Skarmory, Roserade, Gastrodon with a 2HKO when at maximum special defense (70.42% - 83.57%), and Heatran with a 3HKO when at maximum special defense (39.38% - 46.63%).

    Swords Dance / Close Combat / Ice Punch / Espeed Lucario can definitely do some damage to this team. If Latios is gone, or has tricked it's Scarf away, then Luke can 6-0 your team (Shiftry's Low Kick does 81.9% - 96.8%). I've done multiple calcs on whether or not shifting Shiftry's EVs slightly would be able to OHKO Luke, while still retaining it's amazing speed and spatt. However, even after 84 Att EVs are put on (taken away from Speed) Low Kick only does 84.7% - 100.4%. After SR, this is still an iffy chance to OHKO. Needless to say, when your opponent has a Lucario, keep Latios and his scarf as long as possible to be safe.

    While I'm on the topic of SR, I've been using SR on Heatran over Flame Charge and Iron Head over SR on Jirachi to much success. The chances of Heatran being able to set up rocks are good since it can cause switches, and although Jirachi can do the same, Jirachi needs Iron Head more than Heatran misses Flame Charge.

    Good luck and I hope this helps you!
  21. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Messages:
    688
    @ KyogreBlue: Thanks :). Xatu sounds cool and that Fighting resist could come in handy, I'll try it out!

    @ Cap'n: Thanks :). Surf is weakend in the sun if I'm not mistaken and nature power doesn't OHKO Tyranitar sadly. Alomomola actually sounds like a great suggestion, I'll try it out!

    @ Eos: Thanks a lot for the rate man! I actually haven't ran into any variants of Tabloo, but it does seem like a tough match up on paper. I'll test some of that stuff out on my Ninetales set! Lucario is a bit of a problem, but LO variants can be played around with (CC deffence drops etc) and Balloon variants don't have enough power to do any damage without set up. I'll experiment with SR/Flame Charge. Without Flame Charge the team losses out on some valuble offense, but again I'll look into it :)
  22. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,147
    Cool team, I always like sun teams. :O

    Anyways I'm posting here because your Shiftry EVs can be optimized.

    Your current EVs/Nature gives you an Attack of 271 and a Sp. Attack of 279. :o

    With a EV spread of 140 Atk / 156 SAtk / 212 Spd and a Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def) you'll get an Attack of 271 and a Sp. Attack of 280.... yea an increase of one Special Attack but you'll never know when that can become handy.
  23. ace combat

    ace combat

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    I don't know how Shiftery can do a number on Solums Core if there is Jirachi in it. I know flame charge gives you team an offensive presence, but I really would suggest stealth rocks on him so you can run Iron Head on Jirachi. I do like your Shiftery set as it unexpectably takes out weather changers giving you team the momentum. As with any sun team I suggest Porygon2 as it is hard to put a solid core on a sun team and porygon2 fits the job perfectly. I have seen Eternal run this on his sun team. If you were going to consider this I would trade it over for Jirachi.
  24. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Messages:
    688
    @ AfroThunderRule: lol, nice find I'll change that right away!

    @ Ace Combot: I think I wrote that Solumns core thing when I was still running HP fire on Shiftry. Still, 2/3 isn't bad though ^-^". I've actually been testing SR on Heatran ever since Eos suggested it so I'll be back with results later! Porygon sound interesting, what set was he running?
  25. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    517
    This team sucks, I hate you

    I fucking a-d-o-r-e this team. It's great to see well built sun team every once in a while, because Drought itself is a fairly underestimated ability. I can't see any noticeable threats that weren't addressed earlier, but I do have a few suggestions that I think you should at least consider (or better yet, try out for yourself).

    The change that I'd recommend is DDMence over Haxorus. I understand that you're testing out Dragonite in that slot already, but I'd honestly recommend Salamence for its superior Speed stat and general surprise factor. When most players see Salamence in team preview, they usually expect a mixed variant as opposed to Dragon Dance. This is mostly due to the notion that Dragonite is the 'better' user of Dragon Dance due to Multi-Scale and better overall bulk. Running DDMence will certainly give you the edge against teams that are more prepared for taking on MixMence, and will also fill the role of being wallbreaker that Haxorus played just as well. The second reason as to why I'd suggest DDMence is its base 100 Speed. Yeah, with ScarfLandorus and Jolly ScarfTerrak in the metagame, Salamence won't outpace much more than Dragonite will at +1. He does however, beat Hydreigon, most (if not all) Celebi, rivaling (no pun intended) Haxorus, and Rotom-W before a Dragon Dance. This means that you won't have to potentially risk any of your Pokemon taking an Outrage, Draco Meteor, or Thunder Wave. This also means that Salamence DD beforehand or immediately in order to KO one of the aforementioned Pokemon before they can cause much damage to your team.

    Here's the set: (open)

    Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Fire Blast
    - Earthquake


    You can switch a couple of things around, depending on your preferences. For instance, you can destroy Slowbro and Hippowdon by running Draco Meteor over Earthquake and moving the Attack EVs to Salamence's special attack. You could also run a Lum Berry in order to give Salamence a lot of extra breathing room to set up with (Jellicent and Slowbro for example become fodder). The set I'm suggesting to you kind of flows better with the offensive nature of your team, destroying quite a few of the common walls in the metagame while maintaining the ability to switch moves.

    Oh, and one more notable thing about Salamence is that he can outpace Jolly Excadrill under sand at +2 :toast: (situational, I know, but Dragonite can't do that either).

    You could also try Donphan out for this team, as he can keep the pressure on stall teams with his surprisingly good offensive capability and Rapid Spin; he can also set Stealth Rock up as well.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)