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Suspect Discussion: "Hail"

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Molk, Jul 15, 2013.

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  1. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325 bp nerf pls
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    I'm certainly not going to miss the Sub/Protect strategy, and honestly, who would? I feel as if one of the only true counters to the Toxic Spikes + Stallrein combo is Magic Guard users, as they can defeat Walrein without having to sacrifice anything. Furthermore, the Toxic Spikes will shield pokemon like Clefable from extremely aggravating Blizzard freezes. But even if I use a team that is loaded with hail immunity, Walrein is still annoying to face and will make a match 60+ turns long if the opponent is persistent enough to repeatedly subtect. It's stupid.

    Whether its out of spite and/or my belief that Ice Body mons are indeed broken, I'm leaning heavily in favor of a Snow Warning + Icy Body ban. It does not create stupid limitations in NU (by banning Ice Body universally), it preserves the non-broken aspects of hail in RU, and Hail stall and offense are still totally viable. Hail stall does not require Ice Body.
  2. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    meh -- I ran a team with two solid checks to Walrein on the account I got reqs with, so I didn't really have any trouble with it at all. In the probably 30ish battles I did on previous alts with a couple different teams, I still didn't really have any issues with Walrein -- one of my teams actually gave it lots of Substitute opportunities if I wasn't constantly switching around, but it was still pretty easy to play around. I'll be voting no ban because I really don't think Walrein is broken at all. It's really just a matter of treading carefully around it. It's not the only thing I don't want to have a free Sub, and not the only thing that can wreck once it gets up a Sub. (misplaced comment) I don't think Ice Body + Leftovers healing and SubProtect Toxic stalling is enough to call Walrein broken.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  3. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Care to share what checks you ran and how Walrein was easy to play around and what else wrecks like Walrein when it gets a Substitute?

    @Jukain
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
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  4. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    cinccino, escavalier, emboar, durant, and klinklang were all checks I toyed around with. they worked well. also, running a spinner kind of made its job a living hell what with blizzard having a good amount of resistances and lacking toxic spikes making it hard to work with. especially kabutops, who it can't really do a whole lot to. crustle was pretty neat too -- rock blast worked great against walrein. hazards (even just stealth rock is great) and a spinblocker to ensure they stayed up made sure it wasn't coming in and taking any really strong hits.

    the real thing is not giving walrein sub opportunities I found and that's a matter of not giving it free switch-ins, which does truthfully mean a lot of switching around and sometimes even giving up kills just so walrein doesn't get a free setup opportunity on a choice-locked attack.

    the comment about other pokemon wrecking with a substitute was misplaced -- that isn't true, I'll admit.

    I really didn't find walrein so overpowering that it was so hard to kill and impossible to prevent from successfully stalling. maybe I just played against mostly bad walrein users though, idk. there were a couple fights where walrein was certainly a roadblock, but it was never an unbreakable one.

    edit: feel free to dispute me on my points -- I just don't see much pointing to walrein being broken. I'm not interested it getting into an infinite theorymon debate.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  5. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
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    Jukain I remember you on the ladder and you was using Tailwind team and you lose 2/3 to my hail team yesterday, your team was especially weak to hail so idk what checks you says the only check that you had was Cinccino Scarf to break the Wallrein subs which with Druddigon Rough Skin + Hail isnt very hard to deal with him and after you kills Cinccino the only that you have to do for beat the rest of your team that you was using just a free Substitute on Sigyliph or in an attack that you can tank on Wallrein and the rest of your team is just stalled by Wallrein with Substitute + Protect, mostly if you have Toxic Spikes on your side.

    From my experience against others Hail teams the only team against that I lost clearly was against Branch (Branflakes325) who just used hail counter hail teams with 3 magic guards + SpD Escavalier.
  6. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    @Hot N Cold: that wasn't the only team I used, and it certainly wasn't the only alt (there were a lot of failed runs)

    edit: seriously, I don't want to argue this.
  7. DittoCrow

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    I don't see how any of those Pokemon you listed are effective except for Klinklang who is pretty bad vs non-hail teams; not to mention Klinklang gets 3HKOed by Surf and Gear Grind only breaks the Sub. Cinccino is incredibly easy for hail to deal with because of all the residual damage and Pokemon such as Qwilfish and Spiritomb. Escavalier loses to Walrein unless it has Rest. Emboar and Durant both get outstalled and have to use Superpower; they only win if Walrein doesn't have a Substitute up. Crustle is decent I guess but it needs 252 Speed or it gets OHKOed by Surf after SR. I don't think people should be running Blizzard on Walrein at all. Walrein can win way more matchups with the extra PP from Surf or Ice Beam. The most effective set I found was Sub / Protect / Toxic / Surf, and no, lack of Toxic Spikes doesn't really make it hard to work with nor does Stealth Rock alone really hinder Walrein.

    You say "not giving Walrein free switch-ins" like it's easy. If something faints on Walrein's team, Walrein can come in on so many things. I've said this on page 1 which is why I kept saying to read the thread before posting here, but in order to prevent Walrein from getting a Substitute, you need to deal at least 75% to it if SR isn't up, or 62% if SR is up. This means that even if Stealth Rock is on the field, Walrein can set up on ridiculous stuff like Sceptile's Giga Drain and Scarf Rotom's Thunderbolt. Then, even if you have something like Durant or Emboar that you mentioned, Walrein can just keep using Sub + Protect to kill your Pokemon off with hail damage or LO / Flare Blitz recoil.

    It's not a theorymon debate, Walrein actually rapes teams by setting up on shit like Moltres and Sceptile, and there are few counters, most of which are bad against anything other than Walrein which we have discussed on previous pages. I'm not sure which Walrein you played, but they sound horrible if they were losing to Emboar and Crustle.

    EDIT: If you don't want to argue then don't post the same flawed arguments that have already been addressed on previous pages. I don't mean to be condescending lol but we've discussed this 38943843 times and everyone in this thread has really strong opinions. @Jukain
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  8. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
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    I dont understand when you say that you didnt have problems with him then, when clearly you had problems with this.

    From my experience if you dont wanna be weak to hail teams you just needs a bunch of checkmates on your team: stuff that breaks substitutes (Cinccino, Klinkang), Sunny Day / Rain Dance users, Magic Guard users etc and running a lot of them on the same team which is just limiting your teambuilder and excessively preparated to them.
  9. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325 bp nerf pls
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    Against hail teams in general? I disagree, you don't need a team with a bunch of checks to beat them. Against Walrein, however, I agree that you may need more than one check. Walrein doesn't define hail though.
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  10. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    okay, I can admit when I'm in the wrong (I still don't find walrein necessarily broken, but I get why people might)

    sorry for shitting up the thread and not reading it before I posted
  11. Kitten Milk

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't magneton an amazing hail check/counter? It resists ice, is immune to Toxic, owns Walrein with T-Bolt, and can hurt everything else with Flash Cannon.

    Obviously, Eviolite Magneton is easily stalled out by Walrein, but I guess you could run lefties for the sake of being a solid Walrein counter, lol.
  12. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
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    If you make a balance team no weak to hail is the best option with different checks on your team against them, hail users are very different in terms to potential also. Stallrein is just the star but dont miss stuff like Glaceon Specs or Scarf BP which is scary, with the Choice Specs is just a wallbreaker with a very limitated number of counters while with the Scarf is harder to get Revenge Killer because the extra speed, you cant miss stuff like Jynx, Rotom-F etc when you're making your own team, and your hail team is clearly a example of this.
  13. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
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    na because clefable wrecks it, subcharge might be able to break through if you're lucky/the opponent is stupid enough
  14. DittoCrow

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    If you have to run Leftovers on Magneton, don't you think there's a problem there? Walrein must be pretty centralizing. SpDef RestTalk Magneton is the only good set that beats hail, and even that gets 3HKOed by Glaceon's Blizzard.
  15. Spirit

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    The thing about specs is that it's slow and easy to kill. If you want to argue about wallbreakers, banded emboar is just as hard to switch into if not more so. As you said, Specs Glaceon has a limited number of counters, Banded emboar has none. Scarf does remedy the speed issue but is noticeably weaker. The #1 Pokemon in the tier walls it for instance.
  16. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas Pope Druddigon the 420th
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    SpD rest-talk Magneton is the only true Walrein counter (along with like Clefable), however it loses to offensive hail (Glaceon's HP Ground is a 2HKO if not 1HKO), and also loses to other mons commonly on Hail teams. If your hail team isn't running at least three mons with ground/fire moves though, it is probably pretty bad though, so it struggles against the rest of the hail team. Plus running this Magneton gives up p much all of Magneton's utility vs. other teams.
  17. Spirit

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    I'd like to add that RestTalk SpD Spiritomb can counter Walrein too. It's especially easier in Spiritomb's case because it has pressure to outstall it faster. There's also RestTalk Poliwrath, Lanturn, and sometimes Escavalier. Your counters list is a bit short and you shouldn't omit viable stuff.
  18. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325 bp nerf pls
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    My team has a dumpload of non-hail weaknesses though. I agree that all variants of Glaceon are really powerful, and it's probably the next best thing that hail teams can abuse to no end. A complex ban will eliminate both (subtect)Walrein and Glaceon from the picture, and all other blizz-spammers and hail stallers simply don't match the offensive and defensive capabilities of Walrein and Glaceon. No point going into detail on the other hail-abusers though, since that has been done a bunch of times in this thread already.
  19. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
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    I know that specs is slow but this destroy more defensive teams so think that with your Clefable you just have a great "check" hail all-round when now Specs Glaceon are gonna destroy you:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 249-294 (63.19 - 74.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Scarf works better against offense since STAB Blizzard + 130 SpA + extra hail damage can do 2hko against many things with hazards up, and thanks to Ice Body is hard to take down.

    Dont miss Baton Pass Glaceon which with a Pursuit beats stuff like Slowking (which anyways is 2hko from specs) or go to Magneton to kill your SpD Escavalier (which is easy to lure on a hail team with stuff like Hidden Power Fire Snover), anyways CB Esca is 2hko from Specs Glaceon: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Escavalier: 153-181 (44.6 - 52.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rocks

    @Ice Cream: Resttalker SpD Spiritomb loses vs Roar Wallrein with hazards up, only won in 1vs1 which is weird on the practise except last mon wallrein vs him.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  20. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk relevant
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    Walrein @ Leftovers
    EVs: whatever defensive stuff
    - Blizzurf
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - ????????

    It's that fourth moveslot that really makes all the difference when you're trying to counter Walrein, and I think it's worth mentioning a couple of things about it.

    I've seen a lot of people saying that Roar is better "because you don't need Toxic when you have Hazards/Toxic Spikes".

    This is true. I also prefer Roar on Walrein to Toxic.

    However, it is completely not correct when you say that during a suspect discussion. At that point, you're not saying that Walrein with Roar is broken, you're saying that Walrein with Roar is conditionally broken provided that toxic spikes are on the field and can not be blown away/absorbed easily etc. etc. It's the same thing as me saying "Walrein isn't broken because it dies because toxic spikes are on the field". (Also, Cryogonal but yeah.)

    Toxic Walrein, on the other hand, has a couple more actual, not conditional counters. For instance, anything that is faster than Walrein, is ice type or has leftovers, and has substitute, can basically set up on Walrein and do whatever it wants (providing it has a move that can easily break Walrein's sub). Furthermore, any Steel Type with leftovers is similarly immune to most of what Walrein can do. (And please, people, don't say "No because Walrein is behind a sub and Escavalier comes in and it surfs predicting the switch and then it surfs again as you break the sub and then surf is a 3hko! Once again, that's completely conditional and doesn't deserve to be said in a suspect discussion).

    Finally, I'd like to point out four pokemon that are pretty good in RU.

    Entei, Moltres, Dusknoir, Spiritomb.

    The common thing that all of these pokemon share isn't that they take little damage from Walrein's attack, or that they're immune to Toxic, or that they don't take damage from hail. They all do. What they share is Pressure and the possibility of running viable moves that can easily break Walrein's sub. If Walrein wants to get anywhere killing these things, it's forced to blizzard them using 1/4 of its PP each time. This means that whenever a Blizzard is predicted, you can just switch into one of these pokes (most of which don't take much damage from it), and sooner or later Walrein's PP will be gone. (It's obviously different if you run Surf, but I find Surf to be less threatening in general, and it opens Walrein up to a bunch of new threats (most notably every regenerator core ever). Entei could actually run Roar to further counter Walrein as well.

    What I'm trying to get at here is that Walrein without Blizzard suddenly becomes much less threatening. It can't touch anything with Rest, or even something as simple as a Slowking - Amoonguss regenerator core, which can just keep switching back and forth until Walrein dies to its on struggling.

    Honestly, Regenerator cores in general are pretty handy counters to Walrein. Amoonguss and Tangrowth obviously don't appreciate taking a Blizzard to the face, but Audino, Slowking and Alomomola paired together in any fashion can deal with any variants running Blizzard. Surf is destroyed by any regenerator core, as I mentioned above.

    Finally, I'd just like to address the people saying "oh you're using an unorthodox set to counter a pokemon that I call broken? that must mean that the pokemon is broken!". As was mentioned before, this whole "Walrein is broken hail is broken" attitude is fairly new in RU. Because of this, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that we haven't considered all the counters of the pokemon in question, and that certain unorthodox sets might not be unorthodox if people start trying to counter it, now that it's apparentally a real threat. The pokemon i'm referring to is SpD Magneton, which is actually already a listed set on Smogon which says that it probably doesn't "not have utility vs. other teams".

    I don't think only SpD Magneton could work though. Here's a pretty handy way to get rid of a Walrein behind a sub too.

    [​IMG]@ Eviolite
    EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
    IVs: 20 Speed
    Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Flash Cannon
    - HP Fire
    - Volt Switch

    252+ SpA Magneton Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 320-380 (43.86 - 51.41%)

    By giving Magneton 20 Speed IVs, he drops to one point below Walrein's normal uninvested base 65. The slow Volt Switch allows it to break Walrein's sub as it Blizzards, and lets you switch into something that can threaten Walrein out of the field, whether it be a fast Toxicer, something that can OHKO it, etc. For more fun, you could pair it with a Galvantula or a Rotom-Mow, giving you not only an awesome offensive Duo-Electric core, but also allowing you to keep the momentum up by volt switching again. The vast majority of hail teams run absolutely no ground types (bye NQueen), so you don't have to fear them, allowing you to run HP Fire and Flash Cannon as amazing coverage against hail teams, absolutely slaughtering Hail pokes left and right.

    252+ SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glaceon: 284-336 (104.79 - 123.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snover: 480-568 (148.14 - 175.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Escavalier: 280-332 (81.63 - 96.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, probable OHKO after rocks
    252+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dewgong: 338-398 (88.02 - 103.64%) -- 25% chance to OHKO ;)

    Yes, it's stopped by HP Ground, but if you're forcing Glaceon "the big blizzspam threat" to lock itself into HP Ground, then you can probably deal with it pretty easily.
  21. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
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    This is going to be a long post. Fair warning. Also, if I come off as a bit abrasive, its just how I type in arguments 9.9 :<
    Anything that is faster than Walrein cannot set up on it. It will literally just sit there and Sub Protect stall until your Pokemon is dead. So that is a moot point. All using Substitute will do is speed up your Pokemon's demise. Ok, how many Ice-types in this tier besides Walrein actually run Substitute? Glaceon , Jynx, and Rotom-F are basically it. Jynx can only break the Substitute with Focus Blast, which only has 8 PP. Sub Glaceon will create a PP-stall war and Rotom-F will probably force Walrein out (unless they want to Sub + Protect stall until your choose another move, which is entirely possible). Ok, now, how many Pokemon in this tier actually run Substitute and have Leftovers, while being faster than Walrein? Well, pretty much nothing outside of Klinklang, Crawdaunt and the rare SubCM Uxie (and SubPunch Aggron, but that is already a terrible set). Walrein breaks all 3 of their Substitutes with Blizzard (Crawdaunt takes around 40% from it) (if Uxie tries to Calm Mind, its a 50/50), so they cant really beat Walrein either. This "couple of actual counters thing" really is not true at all.

    Ok, all of those Pokemon can be Toxic'd, and your plan of trying to switch them in every time Walrein uses Blizzard is just relying on perfect prediction. Not to mention, only 2 of those Pokemon even run Leftovers, meaning the other two will just get weakened by hail. That's not even mentioning entry hazards, which chip off 25% of Entei's health and half of Moltres's health. Sure, you can say you can Rapid Spin it, but I can also Spinblock you so that's not a valid argument either (note how I'm not even mentioning Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which could also be up). Also, Dusknoir is arguably the worst Pokemon in the entire tier, so I don't know what you meant by saying it was 'pretty good'. Again, all of these Pokemon can be hit by Toxic. This plan of beating Walrein relies on you getting 4/4 predictions right successfully without having your Pokemon die to entry hazards / other damage. Great plan imo. And it's not even beating Walrein; it's just making it run out of Blizzard, which means it can still SubProtect stall other Pokemon (not to mention Toxic).

    Ok, well, as you said, Amoonguss and Tangrowth are both annihilated by Blizzard. Meanwhile, Audino (which is a terrible Pokemon, by the way), Slowking, and Alomomola are all beaten by Toxic, so I don't understand how they counter Walrein at all.

    That's not getting rid of Walrein. That's getting rid of Walrein's Substitute with a Volt Switch. The Walrein user can just switch out of your counter so I mean, all you really did was take a Blizzard + a round of hail damage (2 rounds if they used Protect on your Volt Switch), which totals to about 32% damage (not even factoring in entry hazards) to force Walrein out. You did not beat Walrein. So basically, Walrein with Toxic annihilates everything you just stated in your post. Roar Walrein has several other merits, and even it can defeat most of the Pokemon you were mentioning through entry hazard damage (for example, if Stealth Rock is up, Roar Walrein can just keep phazing through your "Regenerator Core" because most of those Pokemon cannot even break Walrein's Substitute. If your whole plan of beating Walrein is to just PP stall it with a Regenerator core, it can literally just bring in other Pokemon on your team with Roar and make them take damage. Even without entry hazards, your team will still get hit by hail. Effectively, it can kill half your team). Walrein too strong. 'Nuff said.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
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  22. Kitten Milk

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    I mistyped when I said "anything that is faster", I meant "anything that is faster that can do over 75% - hazard damage +12.5% to it", assuming a 1v1 situation. (I know, it's really assuming a lot, I'm just trying to point out that so many of these "what checks/counters Walrein?" discussions assume that Walrein has already gotten a free turn to set up a sub, which isn't fair).

    Similarly, your hypotheticals about vsing pokemon with Substitute fall under the same assumption, that Walrein already has a sub up. Assuming that it is a 1v1 situation, it's equally as possible that Blizzard hits Crawdaunt as it subs as it is possible that Walrein Blizzards as Crawdaunt sets up to kill it the following turn, or that Walrein Protects on a Substitute, or that Walrein Toxics on a substitute, etc. etc. I'm not saying that they 100% beat Walrein, I'm saying that they can beat Walrein and at the very least can disrupt it.

    So the first half of this paragraph is completely conditional/hypothetical, so I'll just ignore it - as I've stated previously, conditions like Hazards, Spinblockers, etc. do not belong in discussions about checks and counters. I mean, you're literally talking about Spinblocking my Rapid Spinner so that I can switch in a fire type to pressure stall your Walrein. (In other words, countering the counter to the counter.)

    I guess saying Pressure pokes are counters was kind of stupid, and I realize that. All I was trying to say is that when you use Walrein, you try and stay in for a good 50+ turns, and that running out of Blizzards is something that happens and that can wreck your plan - once Blizzard is gone you're open to a whole new host of threats, as I mentioned, and all a smart player has to do is keep them around to keep from getting "swept".

    I was referring to Regenerator Cores, not Regenerator Pokemon. If you have Slowking and Audino (which I've seen work in RU/UU, terrible or otherwise), you can just keep switching back and forth between them. The same goes for when you have two pokemon with reliable recovery who can just keep switching back and forth, healing off the damage occasionally, and waiting.

    Yes, the Walrein user can switch out of the counter, losing momentum and possibly losing a poke. I never said "GUARANTEED WAY TO KILL WALREIN".

    I did not say that Regenerator Cores beat Roar Walrein, I was specifically referring vs. Toxic Walrein. The point of Regenerator cores is that they don't have to break Walrein's sub, they just have to keep switching.
  23. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
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    Thats because the definition of a counter is that it can come in on any move. It's not a counter otherwise lol....and the move in question is Substitute.

    How do you plan to keep switching back and forth when Walrein can just Toxic you? I'm fine with letting you "PP stall" my Walrein for a couple of turns while I toxic half of your walls and make them much easier for the rest of my team to KO. Like...I didn't know that Natural Cure Regenerator Slowking existed.

    Once again...TOXIC THE REGENERATOR POKEMON
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
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  24. The Quasar

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    My little cent about it (it's a very little cent, because it's too late for me, i'm enough tired).

    I don't think hail isn't so decisive. In first attempts to reach the suspect's requirements, I had played with Oglemi's stall hail (that is in this topic). Well, except for some difficulty in (sporadic) weather changes, others my still failings (I still have things to learn!) and someone else error for boredom (!), it was so easy to play with it. Too easy.
    Ice Body is very culprit, since to allows me to insert a Substitute with a 0 HP credit (ice body + leftovers), transforming normal pokemon like Glalie, Walrain, Vanilluxe or Glaceon into something like the black monolith on 2001: A Space Odyssey (in RU) while are "only" NU. All that while the snowstorm doing its nibble, where it can.
  25. Kitten Milk

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    Overwhelmingly, Walrein comes into play as a lasting threat in the late-game, meaning that the rest of your team probably won't be able to KO the regenerator core. The main purpose of me mentioning Regenerator cores was as something that can deal with Walrein. I'm not saying they can't get toxiced, lol. (That said, Audino has heal bell and in general, most teams with a regenerator core carry a cleric as well.) The only point was that you can switch between two regenerator pokes/pokes with reliable recovery when Walrein is the field and Walrein will eventually be forced to switch out or struggle itself to death.

    In the same vein, though, hail stall (Hail with Walrein) struggles a lot with any form of stall team. When you have designated clerics, spinners, spikers, regenerators, and wish-passers, there's not much Walrein can do other than drain some of your PP.


    I don't know. I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with all these posts about things that can deal with Walrein, so I'll probably just stop after this. The only thing I'm trying to tell you guys is that most teams already have something that can "deal" with Walrein. I don't mean something that can 100% counter it, or something that can straight OHKO it behind a substitute and ignore its protect and be immune to toxic and levitating and take no damage from hail and prevent it from switching out so you're guaranteed to kill it or whatever, I'm talking about things that can force it out. To me, the overwhelming problem with facing teams with Walrein is that people don't account for the threat that Walrein holds before it comes into play. As long as they keep something that can deal with it and can continue to keep it switching out, people can deal with Walrein. The problem is that because Walrein and Hail Stall in general was relatively uncommon prior to this suspect, people could skate along in RU having to never deal with it - and furthermore, they could just forfeit and not have to deal with it when they did happen to stumble upon a Walrein, because it was so common it wouldn't hurt their ranking much and they could just say they didn't want to deal with 150 turns of SubProtect Stall, which I can understand. All this suspect test is doing is forcing people to actually deal with Walrein, and I feel like the majority of the sentiment against it is unwillingness to deal with a problem that has always been around but only recently highlighted, rather than there actually being no ways to get around it.

    It should be noted that everything I said in the previous paragraph only applies if you're not willing to actually run a full-stop counter to Walrein on your team (manual weather, multi-hit moves, etc.). I've tried arguing from that perspective as well and failed miserably, so I don't really know what else to say.
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