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Suspect Discussion: "Hail"

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Molk, Jul 15, 2013.

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  1. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
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    In all of the hail teams I've used, 90% of the time I just lead Snover... I can understand where you may feel hindered if you're (for some reason) not using Rotom-F or Glaceon as your Choice Scarf user, but come on. The reason you use hail in the first place is to, well, take advantage of the fact that you have hail on the field. The two types of hail teams are offensive and defensive. In almost all the defensive hail teams, they at least recover the HP they lost from hail. In offensive hail, there better be a reason you're using hail, and each Pokemon should aid in that goal.

    Let's not even forget the fact that most of Snover's limited use is used with its Focus Sash. Being able to fire off at least one Blizzard can seriously hurt an opposing counter; then one of your other sweepers can break through. If you don't utilize the Focus Sash, you're basically just using it for fodder (I'm assuming the opponent isn't stupid and gets Stealth Rocks up relatively early).
  2. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk [22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
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    Although the defensive pokes on the hail teams cancel out hail damage with lefties, so do the pokes on the other side of the field, so you sort of have to equate that.

    At the end of the day it's the same as sand residual and hail residual in all the tiers that allow it - it's a minor annoyance that generally affects the other side of the field slightly more than the other side. Assuming the average hail team has 3-4 ice/overcoat/magic guard pokes and the average normal team has around 1, that's really not too big of a deal.
    oSeasons likes this.
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I agree, Limitless - I am forced to bring out Snover turn 1 because it's utter garbage without its Sash intact (although I do pack a Spinner, so it's not mandatory). My usual win-condition Hail abuser comes in mid-game, so ideally I would not need to activate Hail so early in the game, but the limited Pokemon capacity of Snover pretty much forces me to make this predictable and at times sub-optimal action.
  4. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
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    This is post is on par with people claiming to see UFOs.

    For the longest time, I've heard on the forums and IRC that Walrien is broken (and anything with Ice Body, which I find laughable). And generally, I just accepted it. I didn't exactly have any evidence to support that, but everyone just seemed to have the same opinion. Why would an entire forum be wrong? I guess before I begin this rant, I just want to urge everyone to keep an open mind on this hypothesis, as blindly agreeing to people is about the worst form of ignorance one can commit.

    Walrien is not broken in RU. Yes, I said it. The crux of my argument, which I will continually go back to is that stall is vastly more powerful than any other playstyle currently in RU. When we first tested hail with Nidoqueen, most people agreed that hail wasn't broken. In fact, no one even mentioned Walrien. It had everything to do with "blizzspam," nothing to do with Walrien. Mysteriously, though, once Nidoqueen is banned, Walrien suddenly becomes a top-tier threat. Now let's do a little Sherlock Holmes detective work here. In what way does Walrien suddenly become a god, when it was barely even used beforehand? Well, it's pretty simple. Nidoqueen was banned because it put stall into extinction. Once Nidoqueen was banned, stall became relevant again; no, dominant; no 10x better than any other playstyle. The problem here is that Walrien is usually used on almost every stall team. And rightfully so. However, people are confusing the success of stall with how dominant and broken Walrien actually is. A person's ability to break stall is not because they can't break through Walrien. They just can't break through stall. I guarantee everyone that stall will be just as strong, and just as broken, after Walrien is banned. Of course, this is assuming the metagame doesn't adjust and be a plethora of lures and stall breakers (I do think this will happen, just natural).

    The top argument I get from people is always that the top teams in the metagame all utilize Walrien. Well, I'll piggyback off of my crux once again. When is Walrien ever in anything other than stall? Again, people are fusing the success of stall with the supposed dominance of Walrien. Of course, people will always look at the common denominator of Walrien, instead of how dominant stall actually is. But let's play this theoretical out. Let's say that hail is banned. Stall will still be flourishing, but my argument is that the metagame will adjust and put a balance to stall. It's just the way things go. Circle of life, if you will. And then this ban will be justified, as more things are suddenly viable.

    The second best argument: Walrien is sooooooooooooo annoying and I have to sacrifice a Pokemon for it. I'd have to argue here that Walrien is nothing but annoying; once again confusing overpowering with annoying. If you place Walrien in OU, it will be just as annoying. You will likely have to play around it too. Does that suddenly make it broken? If the argument was that Walrien could stall out an entire team, then sure, I'd agree with the sentiments. However, I've very rarely seen that actually happen. And if it did, I'm sure we can attribute that to horrible team building. Even further, I'd say that most of the success of Walrien's exaggerated ability to stall stems directly from the dominance of stall teams. Again, not Walrien's dominance.

    Now even if by the end of this post you still don't agree with me, or at least slightly backed off on your stance, let's talk about why people are actually banning hail. Why in the world are we just banning hail outright? This has to be the biggest shortcut I've ever seen in suspect testing. Does anyone actually think hail in general is broken? Ever since the first suspect test, we've established that blizzspam is not a reliable strategy, and that was in a metagame that was flooded by offensive teams. It's even harder for blizzspam to be effective in a stall-infested metagame. If you guys just straight-up banned Ice Body + hail, I don't think anyone would use hail. And yet, we're deciding to ban hail entirely? That's a bit ridiculous.

    And then if you got past that ridiculous proposal, let's get onto an Ice Body + hail ban. Instead of actually banning something that everyone is actually using (Walrien), let's just automatically ban something that nobody is using (Dewgong). In all my adventures of Tailwind Offense getting requirements, I never once saw a Dewgong. Yet, we're automatically prepared to ban it too. I forgot that Dewgong and Walrien had the same exact stats and moves. But then again, everyone is just going to attribute the success of stall to Dewgong too right? Oh, and let's just kill Glaceon while we're at it too. That could definitely be used to stall out teams with its amazing defenses. Yep.

    Sorry for all the sarcasm, and generally going against the opinions of 99% of this board, but I think we should think about this a lot more objectively. Simply killing an entire weather because people don't want hail in the RU open is a bit naive and not what this test, or forum, should be aiming to achieve.
    Kitten Milk, Spirit, Goutland and 4 others like this.
  5. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas NIPPLE BLADES OF FURY
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    Then you haven't really been listening to the reasons in this thread, the reason Walrein is broken, is that once it gets a sub up, one usually has to sacrifice 3-4 mons to play around it, unless you're carrying SpD Magneton (the one check in the tier), oh and then it can just roar it away/superfang it to make it near useless. And it isn't even hard for it to get a sub up, thanks to it's excellent bulk and high speed for a defensive mon, which allow it to set up on every other defensive mon in the tier and stuff like Sceptile and Moltres which is ridiculous for a mon to wall without full SpD investment. Are we supposed to only carry mons that don't allow Warein to set up on it for our offense teams? Cause that puts an extremely harsh limit on team building that I honestly don't think is possible unless you are making a team that loses to every team that isn't hail.

    You can't even compare Walrein's performance in RU to OU, when a significantly larger portion of the meta game outspeeds Walrein/has enough power to prevent Walrein from setting up a sub, so I don't understand why that statement was relevant.

    I honestly am not sure how you made a straw-man fallacy that long, implying that the pro-ban side thinks, "Walrein is annoying, therefore ban," when the reality hail teams in general and especially Walrein put an extreme amount of pressure on the average team to have multiple checks/counters to it, because realistically, you can't put enough offensive pressure on it to prevent it (or even other ice body mons) from ever setting up a sub. Your post didn't even include any reasoning why Walrein isn't broken except that the meta game should adjust, you just talked about consequences of the ban, which you thought would lead to a more diverse meta game? I just wanna throw this out there, if Meloetta had dropped to RU, I think it would have been ridiculously broken, yes, the meta game could have adjusted to it (probably more easily than hail) and made it seem less broken, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. Right now, hail teams (and walrein especially) require significantly more team space to counter than any other style of play in RU.

    Based on this thread so far, yes.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I both disagree and agree with you, Limitless, on your stance. I disagree that Walrein is not broken - it has incredible durability that allows it to toxic stall with frightening ease. It is no exaggeration that Walrein has singlehandedly stalled many standard RU teams for me. There are solid answers to Walrein in RU, but I believe not all teams can afford to fit one (ie major constraint in teambuilding), and it's quite hard to play around Walrein without them. I am still on the fence about Walrein, but I believe it's one of those borderline broken Pokemon.

    Also I would hardly classify a Hail team with Walrein as a stall team. Walrein can stall without the rest of the team becoming a stall team. My team is hardly stallish, the only stall component being Qwilfish and Walrein. Quick Stall is probably a more accurate term for it.

    Also Nidoqueen's elevation to UU has very little relevance to Walrein's current suspect status, imo. In fact, Nidoqueen would simply be another prey for Hail Teams. Walrein has simply gone unnoticed as an under-appreciated niche mon until august has brought up its ridiculous stalling ability.

    I DO agree that banning Hail in its entirety is unjustified - nobody has expressively claimed the brokenness of BlizzSpam. Granted Specs Blizzard from Glaceon is nothing to laugh at. Glaceon is like a lesser Kyurem-B, though - it has a powerful STAB move that can destroy teams, but it does not have many opportunities to use it, because of its SR weakness, low Speed, and other exploitable weaknesses. Stall and Offensive teams of RU can make good use of Hail even without Walrein - just b/c Walrein and potentially other Ice Body users are broken doesn't mean that Hail would be unusable without them. There's no need to take out from RU more than it is necessary.

    I also agree with Limitless that Dewgong / Glalie are hardly relevant in this RU metagame. Yes, Oglemi and SilentVerse have used them with good success to try to prove a point, but still what makes Walrein so potent is its unmatched bulk. I won games where Walrein was able to tank a STAB Close Combat and finish off Hitmonlee, etc; I'd like to see Dewgong, etc do the same. In the end, Walrein and Dewgong are different Pokemon, and Dewgong's inferior overall and physical bulk would mean less opportunities to stall and more opportunities to die.

    Basically I do not see why we can't just ban Walrein or complex clause Snow Warning + Ice Body. If we're so up and against complex clausing, then I'd much rather ban Walrein, Glaceon, Glalie, Vanilluxe, and Dewgong, because they wont see any use in RU or NU without Hail anyways. By keeping Hail, we can allow offensive and stall teams that make use of Hail's perfect accurate Blizzard or residual damage to still shine in RU.

    Bottom Line:

    1. Banning Hail - death of anything reliant on Hail (including non-broken mons); banning Hail is equivalent to banning every Hail abuser.
    2. Banning Ice Body Mons / Complex Clause - death of Ice Body Mons, while preserving the viability of Hail tactics
    3. Banning Walrein - death of the most pertinent problem while keeping the majority of Hail mons around

    To me it's obvious that banning Hail is the worst kind of ban in this situation (unless BlizzSpam is broken, not merely very effective, which nobody has proven convincingly)
    Branflakes325 likes this.
  7. Limitless

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    If you think that this thread agrees that all of hail should be banned, then you haven't actually read anything.

    My stance is more of a matter of opinion. I can't realistically separate the variables of Walrien and stall to show you that my hypothesis is correct. If you believe me, you believe me. If you don't, then you don't. That's why this is a vote. At the end of the day though, I want this test to be banning the correct things, even if I don't agree with the ban(s).
  8. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas NIPPLE BLADES OF FURY
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    You asked if anyone thought hail in general was broken, based on some of the responses to this thread, the answer is yes, some people actually think hail in general is broken. Obviously not everyone thinks hail in general is broken, nor was I implying that this thread says that, but thank you for taking the time to respond to the actual important part of my post.
  9. Branflakes325

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    I'm a bit curious about how the voting process is going to work. We have a group of people who would support the complex ban, so would that be an option? Or would it be a black and white vote that will either result in banning hail or nothing? And if hail is not banned, will there be a new suspect test for Ice Body/Hail? Considering that would be really redundant, perhaps we should have the initial hail vs. no hail vote, followed by a vote to ban Ice Body if Hail isn't banned in the initial vote. That would make sense to me.

    EDIT: or a runoff vote
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  10. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas NIPPLE BLADES OF FURY
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    I personally think it would be a good idea to do like a 3 ban ballot. Like: ban Snow warning y/n, ban snow warning + ice body y/n, ban walrein y/n, which would allow people to specify the level of there ban. For example, I could vote ban, ban, ban, and you could vote DNB, ban, ban and then which ever is the first to reach a majority gets banned as I'm assuming those are the three tiers that people would be interested in voting for. However, the decision is Molk's so he will probably let us know/give us the 411 around August 9th (hopefully before so we have some time to contemplate our vote).
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I suggested to Molk that we should do an instant runoff vote, like the test done for Garchomp / Sand Veil in OU.
    srk1214, Spirit, SilentVerse and 2 others like this.
  12. GlassGlaceon

    GlassGlaceon You call me out beyond the shore into the waves
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    I've used hail before. i've faced hail before. Idk if it's just how I set my teams up, but i never really have any problems with walrein. Hariyama is great against walrein, which normally carries monoblizzard/toxic, and hari can take both. I've never used him on any of my teams. I feel like walrein's insane recovery is insane, but manageable. It can't do much to CM spiritomb either after a couple of CM's. walrein is, however, the best hail defensive abuser, sporting a great defensive spread of stats, whule still being able to deal out some damage with blizzards. However, it's ice typing gives it some p big weaknesses to fighting and rock, which are abundant in RU. any poke with sturdy/rock blast (gigalith, golem, etc) can take walrein but will get heavily crippled by surf/blizzard. Now that I've covered hail defense, let's get to Glaceon and rotom-refrigerator :3. Glaceon is a powerhouse in RU who can beat slowking if it has specs and the slowking lacks fire blast, and it's base 130 power is unbelievable for spamming blizzard. but It isn't that hard to wall because of its horrid movepoool. rotom-Frost on the other hand, is tricksier than Glaseon. While Rotom-F has not the ability to 2HKO almost half of the tier, it has a very hard hitting t-bolt that destroys most of glaceon's problems. slowking falls to t-bolt. esca falls to hp fire. and any threats can just be volt switched out of. But it is frailer on the physical side, and sometimes won't hit as hard as Glaceon, so it IS manageable. Overall, i feel hail is not as broken as everyone thinks it is, we just need to remember to have a check/counter to it. It's just like LC and OU. grab a check, and it can still fit well with a team. MUNCHLAX walls hail, and a bunch of other RU pokes can manage it. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks this way, but I feel like hail should not be banned. I hope you can take what I said into consideration Logically and not just be like," Gemfrik, y u mek snover haf hal" I'd love to see the other side of the argument tho, pls continue :3
  13. MicfiJasan

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    Apologies in advance for the long rambling that will follow. My opinion literally changed 3-4 times while composing this, so some things might be repeated and it's a bit longer than I intended. But I put 5 minutes into actually building a team, so I feel like I should state my thoughts.

    So I tried building a stall team that didn't care about Hail stall. Despite having two Eviolite Pokemon on the team, I didn't really struggle with the residual damage. In one case, I was trying to deal with a SubRoost Moltres and I was happy that extra 6.25% was forcing him to Roost more often. That said, half my team is essentially a free Walrein switch-in. But I did have multiple ways of bypassing the Subs. Perish Song Misdreavus, Roar Steelix, Taunt Qwilfish. I had Heal Bell Clefable to heal Toxic if it arose although nobody really hated Toxic Spikes. Not to mention HP Fighting Cryo and Defensive Escavalier capable of breaking the Subs, but basically to outstall Walrein if needed. The problem with my "counters" though, is that all of the solutions are temporary. There's nothing stopping Walrein from switching out and coming back in. And with his bulk and Ice Body, he's an absolute pain to actually kill unless I can keep TSpikes down or I get him last mon with Misdreavus (or PP Stall, but that's more a reason to ban him than not).

    The biggest thing about Walrein is the fact that on an offensive team, if one Pokemon is weak to Walrein, the whole team is weak to him, since the ways to deal with it only stall the problem, which is generally bad for offense. That said, as long as you keep a Poison-type or Rapid Spinner alive, it will be hard for Walrein to get more than 2 kills. But this is where the arguments for residual damage really come in handy, once Walrein sets up. It will kill anything with a Life Orb, Choice Item (except maybe TrickScarf), Eviolite, or Focus Sash, since the Sub blocks status, the less reliable recovery. This isn't like the other annoying strategies where you can hax your way out of it via crits or hitting through confusion, you have to continually switch and occasionally recover with Wish/Roost and the like to come out in remotely decent shape. When looking for a metagame that's fun to play, PP Stall shouldn't be the main answer.

    Looking at the next suggested ban above Walrein, the Ice Body+Snow Warning ban, I would 100% prefer this to pure Snow Warning. I always would like to allow as many unbroken strategies as possible, and I personally think just Frotom+Jynx is fine. As a bonus, the complex ban doesn't actually ban anything. Since it's been said that Hail stall usually beats Hail offense, this would allow things like Walrein and Glaceon to stick around and check the remaining Hail teams.

    Looking at Walrein's immediate replacement, fully invested Dewgong has more special bulk than either side of the current Walrein spread does (Walrein can have more with full investment though). If Walrein is broken, Dewgong's does deserve looking at for the increased amount of special attackers it can take. Being weaker to physical attackers does have its issues, but the issue of "if one Pokemon's weak to Walrein, then the team's weak to Walrein" can apply to Dewgong as well, since it can stall just as well against weaker special attacks.

    As for the faster Ice Body users, the speed can certainly make up for the loss in bulk. To set up on a faster Pokemon, you have to take 2 hits and have over 25% left, but you do get a turn of Ice Body/Lefties recovery. So a faster Pokemon has to deal at least 43.75% to reliably prevent the sub. However, if you set up on something slower, you have to do at least twice as much, or 87.5%. So that extra speed doubles the amount of damage you can take before stalling. It can obviously be less if you manage to keep hazards up, but it can be more if they predict you staying in and Protects rather than sub. I'll admit I haven't tried these guys yet (I laddered with a stall team and I think reached my limit of not doing anything), but theoretically they can set up almost as easily as their more defensive brethren. Of course, I don't want a ban based on theory, so it might be more practical to ban the things we figure are broken, like Walrein and maybe Glaceon.

    We shouldn't automatically shy away from a complex ban because we have precedent of doing so with Drizzle+Swift Swim in OU and even SmashPass here. The idea of Ice Body+Snow Warning is to only ban broken strategies. If you really hate the idea, we could consider an Ice Body ban and send Glaceon to BL2. I'm hesitant to straight up band Snow Warning because I don't see it being broken after taking away its strongest component. My only worry about the complex ban is that we're really only saving Snover, Frotom, and maybe Jynx. While I would like to allow as many strategies to flourish in the tier (which includes as much of Hail as possible), I don't want to do it to allow a few specific Pokemon to retain their function in the tier. I'd rather avoid a Sand Veil-esque ban, since I do agree with the reasoning with Evasion Clause and all, I don't agree with using it to bring Garchomp back. This works both ways, I don't want to do the ban just to keep Walrein in RU (albeit less effective) or just to keep Frotom in RU (while remaining effective). Since nothing else seems remotely broken, we can ban conservatively, say just Walrein and maybe Glaceon to start, and then reevaluate whether or not all of Hail gets the boot (btw, I'd rather ban Snover than just Snow Warning).

    tl;dr If someone can show Frotom+Jynx is broken (which as Pocket said hasn't been shown definitively), then I'll support pure Snow Warning ban. I can support the complex ban at the moment, since it doesn't actually ban anything, and maybe bans a broken strategy, but if we wanted to start with Walrein and reevaluate the lesser-used Pokemon later, then I'd prefer that. At least ban Walrein, because the things you can do to break it's stalling streak don't stop him from trying again.

    EDIT: Of course I just missed the conversation about the runoff while writing my monster post. That would be a good idea.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
    Kenny likes this.
  14. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    Toxic Spikes went from terrible in a Nidoqueen metagame to very good in a metagame without it. During Nidoqueen suspect discussions this was predicted. While Walrein and hail stall were certainly good in the Nidoqueen days, being able to reliably abuse Toxic Spikes has really taken them to that next level.

    I don't mean to single out just this part of your post, but it wasn't especially relevant to your main arguments (which I am not responding to) and I wanted to clear it up.
  15. Spirit

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    I agree that a "runoff" vote is the best way to approach this. Simply put, there are so many different opinions on hail and a good chunk aren't black and white, rather they're mostly in the grey area. I wasn't sure if this option was feasible at any point, but if it is, it'd be the course of action to take. It's the best way to handle all of these divided opinions and views and I'm sure at least one option will hit majority.
    -Sparkbeat- likes this.
  16. Molk

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    Alright, after reviewing the concept of the runoff vote, reading the private message Pocket sent Oglemi and i, and talking with a few people such as Silentverse and Dittocrow over irc, i've decided that the runoff vote route is probably going to be the best way to go, which will be as pocket mentioned, much like the Garchomp/Sand Veil test with multiple options about how we should go regarding hail. The ideas proposed were Banning Snow Warning altogether, Banning Snow Warning+Ice Body, banning Walrein, and no ban, so these will probably the options on the ballot. Thanks for the idea :)
    srk1214, Pocket, EonX and 3 others like this.
  17. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
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    Another option would be banning Walrien + Dewgong. This leaves out Glaceon (and a number of never used Pokemon) in the Snow Warning + Ice Body ban.
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    another option is an Ice Body ban for those who cannot stand complex clausing fsr - Glaceon will be indirectly banned, but honestly nobody would miss it outside of Hail (and inside Hail it's supposedly broken if you choose this option)

    Thanks for going through with this, Molk :)

    EDIT: noobcubed, Glaceon is hardly relevant in NU anyways (it's actually PU). A Glaceon without access to Hail is as good as dead / banned. If you really want to keep Glaceon relevant in RU / NU, then you'd probably want to ban Walrein as your first choice
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  19. noobcubed

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    Remember that banning Ice Body alone would indirectly cause Glaceon to be banned from NU too. That's pretty silly when hail isn't even allowed in NU.
  20. Silvershadow234

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    That shouldn't even be a factor, because you ban what's broken regardless of whether it makes the broken thing unviable in lower tiers(e.g. gothitelle ban in UU).
  21. Turtleye

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    Okay, I'll say what I have to say too

    First of all, the biggest problem you guys seem to have is the SubTect Ice Stall with Pokemon that have the ability Ice Body. I agree that strategy is annoying, but it can easily be stopped with mulit-hitting moves or a well-timed Taunt or Toxic. I agree this can be hard to pull off, especially when you're not a much experienced player like me, or if you simply dont have any pokemon capable of doing that on your team.
    The other point is the residual damage. The problem is, this is an aspect of Hail and simply cant be removed. Your best chances against this are Magic Guard and Overcoat users, such as Clefable and Ecavalier respectively. Also any pokemon that is capable of running Recover+ Lefties shouldn't have problems with residual damage. However, you still need to be careful of the wellknown BlizzSpam strategy.
    That said, spamming Blizzard is the same as spamming Thunder under Rain, the only difference is that Rain doesnt cause any residual damage. The difference (and maybe the problem) is that Hail, unlike all other weathers, has a permanent setter that isn't banned in RU, in the form of Snover. And yes, while snover itself is not powerful, the hail it starts is maybe the biggest problem and makes Snover actually the most threathening and useful thing to have on any hail team, as it just doesnt need a turn to setup weather, and as long as you keep SR out of the way, Snover can switch in on any non-damaging move, like Taunt or Thunderwave, and simply switch out next turn. I know this strategy removes your momentum for a while, but after that your BlizzSpammer/Wallrein can just go out on the field and have a great time demolishing/stalling the other team.
    So in my opinion, the problem is not hail itself (Rain Dish is the same as Ice body and can also be extremely annoying, not to mention most Rain Dishers have good defensive typings, while most Ice Body users are weak to the common Fire- and Rock type moves), but the problem is the cause of the hail: Snover.
    Snover means that Hail has a big advantage over any other type of weather, because Hail doesnt need turn to setup. So my point is, just ban Snover, because if the Hail Abusers are so threatening, let them set up their own Hail first. That way, they become less powerful but still function how they should function.
  22. Sleepless

    Sleepless

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    I want to mention regarding the ban options - there is a difference, auestetic only, but still a difference between banning Snow Warning as an ability or banning Snover as a pokemon, since it's the only pokemon avaiable to RU that has access to this ability.
    This means the difference between writing in words another line of ban in the banlist page, and having Snover added to BL2.
    ( banlist page = http://www.smogon.com/bw/banlist/ )
  23. Celever

    Celever

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,770
    Honestly I see no reason why hail itself should be banned, even if it is going to be banned anyway (yeah, this thread is pretty much pointless). Problems with hail are: Hail + ice body and Hail + Blizzard. Honestly Hail + Blizzard should not be banned since it is a simple strategy, and I always thought a hail+ice body clause would make more sense, similar to DrizzleSwim. That's just my opinion though.
  24. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,565
    Am I the only one who feels like, once you get into the midgame with an offensive team Vs. a team with Walrein, you have to keep offensive pressure on full blast, otherwise you lose because Sub?

    I mean, I have taunt Qwilfish (Not that he can really break subs), and Offensive Cryogonal, but still. (Especially if i lose either of them.)
  25. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    After of finish laddering I was using hard hail stall with Wallrein and is very dumb, can setupp on almost everything, with Toxic Spikes is so good to go to beat easily mons with leftovers like Slowking between others. I dont think that other Ice Body mons are less viable than Wallrein honestly and some of them have niches over Wallrein like Glaceon (offensive presence) and other Ice Body mon users which means that you can stall slower mons than them that lacks to any recovery, which cares the bulk when you got a substitute or when you're faster than another things (for example Glalie, which also have Taunt) and just the only that you have to do is Substitute + Protect in your game :| So the lose of bulk in other Ice body mons i think that at least them got some more speed which is very effective, Wallrein is just the king of the Ice Body users but them are a similar potential, dont miss stuff like Specs Glaceon which is scary like such wallbreaker. I think that the best options are Ban Hail or Ban Snow Warning + Ice Body at least.

    And just a opinion personal, SubProtect strategy is pretty boring (regardless if is broken or not).
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