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Suspect Discussion: "Hail"

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Molk, Jul 15, 2013.

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  1. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325

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    I've been under the impression that Glaceon's ability to blizzard right through resists is one of the biggest reasons why Glaceon is considered broken at all. Its power can be considered overkill against pokemon that normally get OHKO'd by blizzard anyway, but I'm talking about Glaceon's ability to unconditionally 2hko most of the tier, which Jynx and Rotom-F are less capable of doing. It's not overkill because the power is needed.

    Also, it's true that Jynx and Rotom-F have about the same number of viable movesets as Glaceon, but I feel that Glaceon's variety within its movesets gives it a more threatening presence. Glaceon has the ability to bluff choice between Scarf and Specs, with one that out-speeds nearly all of the un-boosted metagame while the other one just demolishes everything, and with Specs it can make great use of Trick Room support. Imo running Specs on Rotom-F and Jynx would only be good for the surprise factor, because it wastes their potential and they can easily be forced out, KO'd and/or worn down by hazards. The "third" notable Glaceon set is one that scares out an opponent and subs on the switch. Glaceon behind a sub is an incredibly destructive force considering its ability to stall out entire teams and outright KO most things that are resistant to Stallrein tactics. Compared to Jynx and Rotom-F behind a sub, Glaceon is far more threatening in this respect. Non-scarfed Jynx almost always runs Lovely Kiss, which means a Jynx behind a sub will either be mono-attacking with blizzard and Nasty Plot or Blizzard and a coverage move (honestly i dont think Psychic does Jynx many favors). Sub-split Rotom-F is also less threatening than Glaceon behind a Sub. It can grab a couple kills at best. The same could be said about any hyper offensive attacker in RU that comes in at the right moment.
  2. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk youth running out
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    @ "what the heck else are you going to use" - oh, I don't know, maybe Aura Sphere, Extrasensory, something that hits more than 2 things. Furthermore, HP Grass does absolutely nothing to Gligar/Flygon unless you're at like +6, which just doesn't happen, lol.

    My point with this is that coverage moves are meant to cover a team or a specific pokemon's weaknesses by surprising their counters. This doesn't just have to apply to attacking things, it can also apply to getting rid of hail.

    Rapid Spin was an example of a move used to counter a playstyle in the metagame. It is undeniably true that certain otherwise-shitty pokemon have been foisted into their respective tiers purely because they have this one move. Just like Hail allows certain things to be completely shut down, so do hazards, and therefore Moltres and friends require a spinner, just as a HO team having trouble with Hail requires a weather changer.

    Rain Dance and Sunny Day are in fact not completely useless. You fit them in on your team as you see fit. Say you have a Scarf Emboar already. Add sunny day somewhere, and all of a sudden you have double stab flare blitzes running around. Say you're running Entei already, that gets a boost too. You can't honestly tell me that the average RU Team doesn't run any water or fire moves, lol.

    Finally, stop using usage as an argument for this, it's completely fucking hypocritical given that you guys spent like a page and a half talking about dewgong.

    Okay, I'll address this point by point as well.

    1. I'll be the first to admit that walrein has few counters, but they do exist. In fact, I think you'll find that the counters of Walrein that can break its sub and do damage to it past its sub are much more prevalent than Walrein itself. Your point against Esca is completely true though, I didn't think about that.

    2. Contrary to what you might think, running a weather move can often nerf hail quite a bit. Walrein tends to be rather mid-late game, and Snover is usually one of the first things to go. Even if it doesn't die first turn, you even said you like using it as death fodder. Because of this, and because of the fact no one is going to predict that you're running Rain Dance on your Moltres (or whatever), they won't have a chance to set it back up. And regarding what you said about hail being good outside of hail, I have a couple of things to say. First of all, we're talking about hail threats here. By running Rain/Sun (or sandstorm lol), you are nerfing the pokes that do rely on hail, not every poke. ( I was wrong to say it's insta-win, yeah.)

    Furthermore, I'd like to point to OU, a tier with lots of auto-weather. Even with this auto-weather intact, people still run manual weather on one poke even if their team isn't a rain/sun/sand team persay, purely because it fucks with them once their weather starter is down. Unless they pull a Sandstorm Larvitar out of their ass, Dedicated Sand, Sun, and Rain teams can be completely screwed over.

    3. Finally, the last paragraph. You can't argue usage, as I said in my last post. It just doesn't apply at all in this context. And furthermore, I'm not saying that hail isn't powerful, hail isn't annoying, and hail doesn't deal residual damage. All that I'm trying to stress is that this entire thread is talking about how good hail is and basically not at all about how it's possible to deal with it.

    On that note, I'd like to suggest one more thing that can completely screw over Walrein as well as hail in general, and this would be Toxic Spikes. Even if the hail team is running a grounded poison (qwilfish most likely, now that nqueen is gone), it puts so much pressure on that Qwilfish to stay alive. Furthermore, Qwilfish has to come in and clear the spikes before any of the important members of the team (other than perhaps Rotom-F) can come in without fear of getting completely nerfed. If you can keep your Toxic Spiker til late game and keep up a lot of momentum, then Hail becomes much less of a hassle to deal with.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2013
  3. srk1214

    srk1214 You are people yes ou no?
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    Kitten Milk, if you are really going to argue against Ice as the best possible type to complement, Electric, I will happily show you why you're wrong. HP Ice does not hit "2 things."

    Here is a full list of things in UU that resist Electric:
    Raikou, Rotom-H, Shaymin, Virizion, Abomasnow, Roserade, Krookodile, Flygon, Gligar, Claydol, Rhyperior, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Swampert.

    HP Ice hits 10 of them Super Effectively. Aura Sphere hits 3. Extrasensory hits 4. Now what move are you gonna pick?
    As for HP Grass, it's chosen because Swampert and to a lesser extent Quagsire are used as common options against Raikou, much like how Latios runs HP Fire for Ferrothorn/Scizor.

    Arguing that HP Ice/Grass is useless and niche and comparable to running Sunny Day/Rain Dance/(or heck Sandstorm) only makes you sound crazy.
    Worldtour likes this.
  4. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas I eat my dinner in my bathtub
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    Here is the major difference in my eyes, at first glance rapid spin is a similar idea, but when you dive deeper, it doesn't quite compare, for one, hazard stacking offense can be played around with other things, such as taunt, magic coat, or just heavy offensive pressure. Another huge difference is that Rocks, Spikes, and T-Spikes take 1-3 turns to stack, where as hail is automatically induced. The hail team sacrifices 0 turns to get Hail up, where as running a weather move on a mon takes 1 turn, so the weather isn't exactly on an even foot.

    I know you play a lot of UU, but unfortunately in RU, there is no rain dance Kingdra equivalent, if there was we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. I actually considered this when I was laddering with a weatherless team for reqs, but unfortunately, 2 of my mons weren't fond of sun, and two weren't fond of rain (none liked sand, lol), along with only one mon that benefited from either weather. This means, that I have a wasted moveslot against every non-hail team, so did I want to sacrifice the utility of my Uxie or the immediate offensive pressure of my Moltres? The answer was neither, it didn't work on the team I was using, unlike rapid spin, which is easy to fit on certain sweepers (Kabutops) or Utility Mons (Cryogonal).

    .mad

    But seriously, your getting pretty salty for a conversation about pokemon, especially since I don't even think you play RU all that much (I might be wrong though).
    Molk, chimpact, Worldtour and 2 others like this.
  5. SilentVerse

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    To add on to what atomicllamas said, I'd also like to say that unlike Sunny Day / Rain Dance / Sandstorm, the fact that hazards are on pretty much every single competitive team in the tier (ok bar stuff Ginku's old all choice team but still) means that Rapid Spin is almost never a wasted moveslot, whereas manual weather moves will be basically useless outside of beating hail (and it's not like hail auto-loses if you run manual weather either) or adding a minor power boost to certain moves, which makes them hardly comparable imo.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
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  6. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk youth running out
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    Resistances are sort of pointless, the only thing that matters is BP. For Abomasnow, Rotom-H, and Raikou, TBolt still has higher BP. For Swampert, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Roserade, Abomasnow, Virizion, Rotom-H, and Raikou, Extrasensory has higher BP than HP Ice. For Swampert, Rhyperior, Flygon, Krookodile, Abomasnow, Rotom-H, and Raikou, Aura Sphere has higher BP than HP Ice. Similarly, Aura Sphere gets a much higher BP on certain other pokemon in UU than Thunderbolt does (Registeel, Cobalion, Ambipom, Bisharp, Umbreon, Snorlax, Zoroark), where HP Ice is only the best move on Shaymin, Gligar, Flygon and Claydol. That's why I said it only hits a couple of things.

    In all honesty, HP Ice was just an example - a more pertinent one would be something like Shaymin running Psychic in UU (which is preferred). All that it does that is higher BP than any of its other moves (Leaf Storm, Earth Power) is hit Crobat, but that alone is enough to justify it being run.

    UU is sort of irrelevant anyway. The point I was trying to get across is that running one move screws over (not auto-kills) hail. If we want to compare pokemon, hail comprises of the following pokemon who benefit greatly from it in RU according to this discussion - Glalie, Vanilluxe, Walrein, Dewgong, Rotom-Frost, Clefable, Glaceon and Jynx. By my count, thats 8 pokemon, making one move slot seem pretty reasonable to screw them over.

    Oh, and no, I'm not as active of an RU player as I am a UU player, but I have a tremendous amount of experience running both Hail Stall and Hail Offense in both tiers, and I think that lends itself well to the discussion.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to do using Cryogonal as a reason that rapid spinners are viable outside of spinning, by the way.
    Guess how many sets on Smogon there are for Cryogonal.
    2.
    Guess how many of them don't have Rapid Spin.
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  7. srk1214

    srk1214 You are people yes ou no?
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    It's not about hitting things Super Effective or avoiding resistances. It's about matchups. The fact remains HP Ice hits the most things not hurt by Tbolt as hard as possible. Aura Sphere leaves Raikou utterly useless against things like Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Claydol, and Gligar. Extrasensory leaves Raikou utterly useless against Claydol, and Krookodile. There is not a single common thing that is entirely beating a SubCM Raikou with Tbolt and HP Ice, simply because of type coverage. The only realistic options are Magneton and Lanturn, neither of which is used in UU almost at all.

    Really, I can't take a single thing you say seriously when you think HP Ice is inferior to Aura Sphere or Extrasensory, on top of the fact that it was a ridiculous comparison to make in the first place.

    Then you mentioned Leaf Storm on Shaymin, rather than Seed Flare. Like seriously. And, yeah Psychic is clearly only used for Crobat. Not Roserade or Virizion or just for Shaymin to have a perfectly accurate move, when a Seed Flare miss would be devastating. You clearly are the master of UU though.

    And AGAIN. These comparisons with attacking moves that provide coverage as opposed to Sunny Day or Rain Dance or what have you, which provide almost zero utility for most RU teams are absurd.

    Beyond the absurdity, it's not even accurate to say that running one move shuts down a Hail team. As long as Snover lives, which any good Hail user will do for at least some time, if you have obvious potential abusers (Moltres, Uxie, etc), Hail gets reset. And even if you have a secretive Weather changer and you switch it away from Hail after Snover has been KOed, Hail teams are still NOT automatically beaten. Hail, you'll notice is able to fit 3 or 4 of the best Pokemon in RU onto the team with no issues. Expecting to face Slowking + Entei + Escavalier is not unreasonable, and these are all veritable threats out of hail as well.

    Yes, if you permanently change the weather away from Hail, you will have severely neutered Walrein or Glaceon or Rotom-F, etc. You will however, have wasted a moveslot, a turn, you have to wait until after Snover has been removed (which often requires using an unexpected weather changer), and in the meantime, Walrein has set up and decimated your team. If you want to claim that a weather changing move is powerful enough, I expect you to ladder up, get reqs, and provide logs. Otherwise, for now, it is entirely reasonable to not believe your claims.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
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  8. atomicllamas

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    Few nitpicks, Flygon is completely false... Also later in your post, Clefable is not screwed over by weather change, and Jynx isn't really "screwed" either, unless the weather is sun, so that leaves 6 on that list. You are correct though, I don't know why anyone brought up Raikou's coverage in UU as relevant to this thread, that was quite the tangent.

    But here is my question for you Kitten Milk, if you don't think Walrein is broken, why does it force (most) teams to use a weather changing move to have a chance at winning, when those teams would not really benefit from the weather change outside of hail? Is that not the definition of over-centralization? Is compromising one of your mons so it is far less useful* against weatherless teams (many things in RU have 4mss) not a sign that this mon is broken? And before you say "but, rapid spin," I would like to point out it is far easier to build a team that doesn't need rapid spin support (literally over half the teams I use), then it is to build a weatherless team that doesn't have an huge immediate disadvantage to hail.

    *Even if it isn't less useful, per say, it still has poor synergy with your team, unless your obvious enough for your opponent to conserve Snover

    My other question, for everyone else, is does anyone else legitimately not think Walrein is broken in RU? I ask because so far every post has started with, "I know Walrein is broken and should be banned, but... (defending some other aspect of hail)."

    I think some users (not just Kitten Milk) need to calm their tits too, like wtf happened in this thread.
  9. Branflakes325

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    This thread has recently turned into a bunch of responses to Kitten Milk, thus drowning out all other (more relevant) conversations. Didn't we already discuss weather moves anyway?
  10. Hakumen

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    After using hail a lot I'm going to explain why I find both offensive and defensive hail broken.

    Hail is the only permanent weather, meaning you don't have weather war. It's right that you can use a manual weather move but it's not really efficace tbh because you can bring a counter and by playing smartly you'll keep Snover and not let it die early in the match because it provides a great check to common threats thanks to its resistances(i.e Rotom-C, Lanturn,Qwilfish etc...) and sometimes it is so easy to see that you'll keep Snover. It's right that Snover isn't the best Pokemon ever but it can weaken checks to hail which often lead against Snover(i.e things like Entei, Magmortar, Typhlosion, Moltres, Slowking) or provide a quite good switch to common threats thanks to its useful resistances.

    For offensive hail, I find them broken for some reasons. Alone, I don't find any Blizzspammer broken because of their flaws but by using two blizzspammer then they became broken, imo. The core Glaceon+Rotom-Frost can be really hard to deal with. Glaceon, if using specs can easily wear down Rotom-frost's counters and checks like Slowking, Lanturn, Magneton and Piloswine, the only true checks to Glaceon are Hariyama(which is easy to wear down), Defensive Magneton(which can be 2HKO by HP Fire), Defensive Cryogonal with either HP Fire or HP Fighting something(moves which aren't good on defensive Cryogonal) but it can be 2HKO by HP Fire with maximal rolls and you can easily baton pass on something like Escavalier to trapp it and possibly Lanturn but it isn't far from the 2HKO and can't do much back. Appart from these mons and maybe as well some NU like Munchlax and Regice which are really bad, everything is 2HKO by Blizzard, Shadow ball or HP Fire. It means that after Glaceon wallbreak, Frotom, will have an easy time to late game especially when you factor residual damages and Snover which can possibly weaken some Hail checks. Another cool core is Expert Belt or LO Rotom-frost+ Scarf Glaceon. The expert Belt can easly lure things like Escavalier and Slowking by luring the Specs which means that Glaceon can have an easy late game. As for LO Frotom, it can also be really threatening especially for Stall. Once it set up a sub, you're going to sacrifice something against offense only to break its sub, so by playing well with LO rotom-frost, you can easily do two kills while being really troublesome for Stall thanks to its coverage and power, its only check is cryogonal which can't do something appart from a rare HP Fire/Fighting which as mentionned above isn't good on defensive Cryogonal. After Rotom-frost wallbreak, Glaceon can easily late game because counters will be easily remove. Another important part of offensive hail is also residual damages, it doesn't seem a lot at first glance but it's actually really useful, thanks to them, things like Entei and Emboar will take around 50% thanks to Protect and Blizzard, meaning there won't be able to take hits from blizzspammers. Here are calcs showing Glaceon's power:

    Show Hide
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 243-287 (78.38 - 92.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 298-351 (55.8 - 65.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Bouffalant: 337-397 (91.08 - 107.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 249-294 (63.19 - 74.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 261-307 (97.38 - 114.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Crustle: 393-463 (116.61 - 137.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Cryogonal: 166-196 (48.39 - 57.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Drapion: 280-331 (81.63 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 900-1060 (348.83 - 410.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 288-339 (111.62 - 131.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Dusknoir: 246-291 (83.67 - 98.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and weather



    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Emboar: 227-267 (62.88 - 73.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 204-240 (50.37 - 59.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 352-416 (102.62 - 121.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 187-221 (55.48 - 65.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 380-448 (130.13 - 153.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 286-337 (103.24 - 121.66%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Gallade: 211-250 (62.24 - 73.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 159-187 (36.8 - 43.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and weather




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 216-254 (82.44 - 96.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 288-340 (100.69 -

    118.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 143-168 (35.66 - 41.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Magmortar: 168-198 (56.56 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 336-396 (138.84 - 163.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Magneton: 152-180 (50 - 59.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 309-364 (84.89 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 369-435 (96.34 - 113.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO after weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Omastar: 214-252 (62.2 - 73.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 174-206 (45.31 - 53.64%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 454-535 (115.22 - 135.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 259-306 (77.54 - 91.61%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 216-256 (54.96 - 65.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Spiritomb: 220-259 (72.36 - 85.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

    As for Hail stall, nearly everything has been said. Walrein can set up on a lot of threats and just by having Toxic Spikes, it is able to outstall and kill a lot of threats. The only real answers will be Clefable, rest mons like Overcoat Rest Escavalier, Rest Spiritomb, Rest Poliwrath, Rest Magneton, Klinklang, Cinccino and SubCM Uxie. The three later, despite being annoying for walrein aren't really troublesome because of how easy there are easy to wall for hail stall and because Walrein can run Roar for the latter. Rest mons can also not be really problematic because it will be dealt by PP stall. The only really troublesome mons for a whole hail stall is Clefable but it is troublesome for most stall because of magic guard anyway. Dewgong is on the same boat, it may be less especially on the physical side and he doesn't have roar, it can still set-up easily, it akes around 3% more on special moves iirc. Here are calcs showing Walrein's bulk:
    Show Hide
    252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 226-268 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO after weather
    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 220-261 (51.88 - 61.55%) -- 59.77% chance to 2HKO after weather
    252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 322-382 (75.94 - 90.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 152-182 (35.84 - 42.92%) -- 3.59% chance to 3HKO after weather
    252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 218-260 (51.41 - 61.32%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after weather
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 372-440 (87.73 - 103.77%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 252-299 (59.43 - 70.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 254-300 (59.9 - 70.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 330-393 (77.83 - 92.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 324-384 (76.41 - 90.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 255-301 (60.14 - 70.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 283-338 (66.74 - 79.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    As for voting option, I'm quite mixed but I think it'd be better to ban hail as a whole because by banning only Ice Body+Hail. I expect Hail to be still threatening because of how strong can be Jynx and Rotom-frost when well-used and also because I find better to ban something as a whole instead of banning just what make it broken as it corresponds better to Smogon banning philosphy(i.e just see Blaziken banning as a whole and not only with Speed Boost). Also, I think just banning Walrein won't change the problem as a great offensive hail can be really threatening and if Walrein is ban another Ice body abuser(i.e Dewgong, Glaceon and Vanilluxe)

    TL;DR: Sorry for being so long. I find offensive hail broken because of how hard to deal with can be two blizzspammers together, seeing as how they can weaken checks for the other, it is especially easy when there is residual damages and snover to wear down checks. For defensive hail, I find them broken because of how ridiculous can be Walrein (and Dewgong) with the right support(a.k.a just Hail and Toxic Spikes). For the voting option, I'm mixed but I think banning hail as a whole would be better because Hail can still be threatening with other blizzspammers and because it respects more Smogon's banning philosophy.
  11. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk youth running out
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    I'll make this quick because I think we're just stuck in a rut here.

    First of all, you are the only person who ever mentioned SubCM Raikou, so I'm just going to ignore all of that. SubCM Raikou obviously wants to hit the most amount of things neutrally so it doesn't have to switch out, it makes sense.

    The Shaymin Leaf Storm thing is a typo (sorry) and Air Slash is used for Virizion (which is hardly used anyway), and is basically equal to Psychic on Roserade (slight BP loss for flinch chance). Shaymin already has a perfectly accurate move in Earth Power, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

    The point of running Rain Dance or Sunny Day is not to provide immense utility to an RU team. It is primarily to be a counter to hail, any utility that is provided is common (in my opinion) but not altogether the point. I'm not saying that you have to build your team around Sunny Day Tropius, I'm just saying it's an easy way to counter a dangerous threat that can also benefit some of your pokemon's moves. You're taking everything I say and blowing it out of proportion - I've expressly said that changing weather does not auto-beat Hail teams but you continue to capitalize it as if I'm ignoring you.

    Finally, one last thing that still no one has addressed as an actual counter to Walrein. If, as you say, you have 4 normal RU pokes on your hail team -- (Slowking, Entei, Escavalier, Sceptile or w/e) and you're also running a Walrein (because that's what this whole thread is about) and a Snover, of course, then you're completely demolished by Toxic Spikes. Does anyone care to address this rather than focusing their argument on the fact that I'm not a dedicated RU player?
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  12. DittoCrow

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    This last page is just making me cringe. Why are there like 10 posts discussing Raikou and the viability of Hidden Power? That's surely irrelevant. Someone has probably said this (I hope) but there isn't really a move comparable to manual weather (Rain Dance, Sunny Day, etc.). How is Rapid Spin a similar move? It has utility on every type of team, as Stealth Rock is present on almost every team in the tier. Manual weather, however, is most of the time useless against non-hail teams, as the Pokemon that have been brought up would MUCH rather use a different move unless it directly benefits from weather. There are a lot of threats in RU, which means that most Pokemon are going to have 4-moveslot syndrome; Pokemon like Emboar don't even consider Sunny Day in their options. Even if there are good Pokemon that can afford to run a weather move, it does not just "screw over" hail teams. I think this has been explained on previous pages which is why my last post said if you're going to post here please read the previous posts: you don't have to sac Snover and send it out right on turn 1. You can save it for when something like manual weather comes up and switch it in without having to use up a moveslot. This gives hail teams a huge advantage over any manual weather setter. Hail teams won't automatically lose when hail is gone, either. Point is that manual weather moves are mediocre in dealing with hail and most Pokemon prefer to run another option. The fact that there isn't an easier way to deal with hail is the problem that should be discussed. Can we please just stop going in circles with this?

    @Kitten Milk Not sure what you mean in your last paragraph. Are you saying that Toxic Spikes are a good counter to Walrein?

    This is just annoying that me and the other people in this thread are reiterating arguments for people that are just getting into RU and the suspect discussion. PLEASE READ ALL OF THE PREVIOUS POSTS IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE. Chances are that what you are talking about has already been discussed. Also I don't want to see any more insulting or personal attacks in this thread. We will start banning people from posting here.
  13. Kitten Milk

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    Yeah, DittoCrow. It's something that hasn't really been discussed as much - I've tried to bring it up in the last couple posts I've made but no one seems to be noticing it lol. Sorry about all the unrelatedness, things got kind of out of hand.
  14. DittoCrow

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    Toxic Spikes aren't all that effective vs. Walrein because it is easy to pair it with a Poison-type, especially Qwilfish, Roselia, and Amoonguss, who absorb Toxic Spikes upon switching in. I've also seen people run Rapid Spinners—although not required—with Walrein like Cryogonal and Kabutops which worked well. You'd also have to set them up early in the match to make sure Walrein doesn't set up, which can be difficult.
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  15. Kitten Milk

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    I'm not saying they're a guaranteed counter, more that they keep a lot of pressure on it.


    People keep mentioning that Hail Counters are accounted for by most teams, and constantly cite Slowking and Entei and Escavalier as staples. You also need Snover, and Walrein. According to you, DittoCrow, most hail also runs a Grounded Poison and/or a rapid spinner. You'll also need a spinblocker, of course, to keep your own spikes, SR, and toxic spikes on the field. Of course, you also need to have a hail threat like Glaceon, Jynx, or Rotom-Frost. Oh and don't forget that Dewgong :D

    At this point, isn't that a lot to fit into a Hail team and still include all the threats we've been talking about?

    What I'm trying to get at here is one of the major weaknesses I've found with hail: there just aren't enough team slots to eliminate all your weaknesses while still maintaining the core hail essence. If you end up with a team like Snover - Qwilfish - Slowking - Entei - Escavalier - Golurk for the support, you aren't even using hail at that point, and if you use a team like Snover - Walrein - Rotom-F - Glaceon - Slowking - Clefable, you're opening yourself up to a host of threats.

    For the sake of argument, I'd like to ask this. What should the staple RU hail team look like to cover all of its threats? I'm looking more for roles than specific pokemon, but both would work. If we can figure this out, it'd be easier to analyze whether or not hail itself is broken or perhaps just some of the threats inside of it.

    Edit: didn't mean to doublepost, my bad.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2013
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  16. DittoCrow

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    No that's wrong. I hate when people say that besides Snover, you NEED to run Walrein + another Ice mon + spinner etc. etc. I don't know why people are saying that stuff like Entei and Escavalier are staples either lol. Completely wrong. Lots of successful weather teams, even in OU, run the weather starter + 1 weather "abuser." This is even described in Limitless's Smog Article iirc. There's no such thing as "hail staples" either (besides Snover, obviously). No, hail doesn't need a spinner, no, it doesn't need a spinblocker, no it doesn't even need Spikes or Toxic Spikes. Walrein specifically can succeed without most of those things, and using up 1 slot for Qwilfish or something isn't a stretch and you get Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and a Toxic Spikes absorber all in that slot. Of course you're going to want this support, but it's not required. You're definitely trying to fill each one of these roles which is limiting the effectiveness of your team. Just start with Snover / Walrein / Qwilfish or something. This is also a successful team I've seen that has most of the roles:

    Show Hide

    Snover / Walrein / Qwilfish / Cryogonal / Spiritomb / Druddigon


    Why would you make a team with Snover and no hail "abuser"? That just makes Snover's position on the team pointless unless you're building around wearing the opponent down with residual damage. I don't really understand the point of this example lol.

    Maybe because you have 4 Ice-types, which is completely unnecessary for a successful hail team. See the Smog Article I posted above (the Balance section).

    You don't need to cover every threat, especially with hail. In this metagame, there are so many viable threats that it's even impossible for stall to cover them all.
  17. EonX

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    I don't really think there's a specific "staple" Hail team outside of 2 abusers depending on the Hail playstyle. For me, I'll just go in quick detail:

    Hail Stall: A standard stall core that utilizes Wish, SR, and has the ability to handle many things that commonly give Ice Body abusers trouble, a Toxic Spiker, Snover (duh) and 2 Ice Body Pokemon.

    Hail Offense: Haven't used this team for nearly as long, but an SR pivot, a spinner, a wallbreaker/revenge killer (in one slot) Snover (again, duh lol) and 2 Blizzspammers.

    As far as the Blizzspam point that got brought up a few posts above, I can certainly see that viewpoint. As I've been working around with Hail Offense the past few days, it can be really difficult for teams to deal with 2 Blizzspammers. Granted, I use a couple of less common sets (that still work very well together) but I still have a relatively easy time wearing down the typical Blizzard resists to set the stage for one of my 2 Hail abusers to finish up. That brings me to something else that I've noticed.

    As you probably already noticed, I only use 2 abusers for each playstyle. Now, this may seem crazy at first, especially on Hail Offense, but in actuality, it's all you need. For Hail Stall, a combination of Walrein + p. much any other Ice Body user, Glaceon especially, is generally enough to win most matches. For Hail Offense, the use of Glaceon+Rotom-F is incredibly difficult to combat. Sure Glaceon has insane Blizzards and Rotom-F has good revenge killing prowess, but there's another reason they're difficult to deal with: the inability to effectively trap them. We all know Rotom-F has Volt Switch, but Glaceon also has something to scout with; Baton Pass. This forms a pseudo-VoltTurn core and can make it incredibly difficult to defend against them. The quirk of Baton Pass on Choice Glaceon just makes it incredibly difficult to effectively defend against it since it can just use the move to scout first and then come back in and attack later.
  18. Branflakes325

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    Considering the rest of your post was mostly about Walrein and the Glaceon/Rotom-F core, I'll only address this part. From what you said about Glaceon's importance in the offensive core and the power of hail stall w/ice body, it seems like you would support a Hail + Ice Body ban if it didn't go against any sort of Smogon banning philosophy. This whole banning philosophy thing confuses me, and I fail to see how a Hail + Ice Body ban is ideologically different from OU's Drizzle + Swift Swim ban. Also, there was the complex ban of Shell Smash + Baton Pass in the lower tiers. Why not just ban Gorebyss, Huntail and Smeargle from the lower tiers instead? Because that simply isn't necessary -- it's overkill, much like voting to ban all of hail if only one specific aspect is considered broken (Ice Body and therefore Glaceon).

    In response to your statement about other blizzspammers being threatening, I agree. They are threatening. However, I do not consider them broken or over-centralizing in the slightest. Glaceon's wall-breaking power is partially what makes that offensive Rotom-F/Glaceon core so strong, and Glaceon's role as the wall-breaker for Rotom-F's cleanup is not a role you can just replace with any other blizzspammer. In the event of an ice body ban, Glaceon simply cannot be replaced with something equally effective. Even Scarf Vanilluxe as a Scarf Glaceon replacement currently makes great use of Ice Body to nullify the damage it takes from hazards, and taking away this ability would significantly hinder its survivability. I provided a more in-depth comparison in a previous post on this page.
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  19. Kitten Milk

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    This is more of a coding thing than anything else, but would it be possible to make Ice Body completely banned and just turn Snow Cloak into an ability like Pickpocket that has no competitive use? As far as I know (It might be different in Ubers, but I've never seen any one run Snow Cloak there), Snow Cloak isn't allowed in any of the tiers, so wouldn't it be fine just to make it a useless ability? It gets rid of the complicatedness of "Hail + Ice Body" ban, doesn't completely eliminate the style of play like a straight-out hail ban would do, and doesn't get rid of Glaceon's usability.

    As far as I'm concerned, Hail isn't broken the way it is. That said, the majority seems to be against me, so I'd rather propose something that seems fair and (hopefully) doesn't make hail unusable. Hail is probably one of the least appreciated weathers in the game, and if we deal it a harsh blow like "Walrein + Dewgong + Vanilluxe + Glalie ban now@!!" (not saying anyone's saying that, just an example), then it could quickly fall out of favor more than it already has.

    In a sense, this new hail style would be completely offensive and more focused on BlizzSpam than Toxic Stalling, which might actually bring a lot of people to it. I for one would be happy with this arrangement, and given that I'm a pretty strong advocate of hail, I'm curious to see what you think.
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  20. Goutland

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    The problem with turning snow cloak into a useless ability is that the simulator would no longer reflect the actual game. It wouldn't be playable on wifi without hacking, but then again, sleep clause's implementation on showdown isn't possible on wifi either. But that's a clause rather than a tangible pokemon, so it's really a different subject. It's still a silly option imo. Let's just focus on the two main options now: banning hail as a whole, or a complex ice body ban.
  21. chimpact

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    Hail is much more than being able to abuse Ice Body and spamming blizzards with perfect accuracy. The residual damage that it provides against most of the meta is insane. Usually you have to do 53% to ensure a 2hko on an opposing pokemon with leftovers. When you factor in SR, you only need 46-47 % I believe. With hail added in, that number drops to 43-44%, and only 41% if you just want hail to finish them off (so they're able to use one attack if you're faster before you take them out).

    Hail allows you to EV your pokemon in different ways to net certain KO's that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to get. That's a distinct advantage only pokemon on hail teams are able to utilize. It relieves your team of a lot of offensive pressure so you get a lot more value out of your pokemon defensively.
  22. Pocket

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    I really hate the "residual damage is broke" argument. With this sort of intolerance to non-directly damaging moves, we can essentially justify a test for Toxic, Leech Seed, or Will-O-Wisp.

    You do realize that Hail damage goes both ways, unless a Hail team consists solely of Overcoat / Magic Guard / Ice-type users? Stacking up on these mons would only compound your weaknesses to the dangerous Fighting and Fire-types in this tier. When I used Hail, I would sometimes delay bringing in Snover, just because it compromises my Qwilfish, Emboar, etc's ability to tank hits.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
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  23. Spirit

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    Lets be real here, if hail lacked all its merits (ice body, blizzspam) the residual damage would mean diddly squat. You're seriously overestimating a minor "advantage" here. Stealth Rock does pretty much the same thing (people actually configure the evs around the entry hazard, what a shocker) but is at least consistent in acquiring more net damage. To see how insignificant the residual damage is see: ADV OU, DPP OU, ect. Tyranitar's Sandstream was hardly game breaking because it lacked sufficient ways to abuse it outside of that so called "insane" residual damage. At this point, I feel like people are getting desperate enough to say just about anything they want to try and ban hail.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
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  24. Kitten Milk

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    I don't see how it's any different from banning Snow Cloak in the first place. All it would do is change something from being unusable to usable but useless.
  25. Branflakes325

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    As someone who has designed a team to abuse hail's residual damage (consists solely of Overcoat / Magic Guard / Ice-type users), I agree that it's incredibly powerful and I'm surprised the residual damage factor has received so little attention in comparison to Glaceon and Ice Body. It's more powerful than damage-inflicting status or Leech Seed because it affects such a great percentage of the pokemon in RU unconditionally. But I wouldn't say it's broken on the average hail team that usually suffers from the same residual damage or nullified Leftovers on at least half of their team.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
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