Fine then, let's all just play with Stall Teams with Blissey/Chansey/Whatever and the problem will go away! It'll be just like Gen II, but with slightly more options!!!
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Fuck no. Ban it now.
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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
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Fuck no. Ban it now.
We should, just like we banned all HO Pokemon in gen 5 after they killed stall teams.
I like how Rotom W was the only one to get destroyed by foul play while Latios put up a fight with those surfs. There is no check, all the magic bouncers will take super effective damage to foul play or take up the mega requirement, swagger in all cases is a confusion with bonus damage to the receiver, there's no 100% counter like most strategies, just better odds of breaking the confusion or unable to be paralyzed.
I honestly don't even understand half of the counter arguments in this thread. "Oh, it's only useful against offensive teams." "Oh, you're only banning things that you don't like to face."
50% chance to entirely miss your turn is kind of a big deal. No matter what your team is, no matter what style you're playing. Even a stall team isn't going to like Parafusion. Even if you have clerics and you take nothing from confusion damage or Foul Play, missing a turn in a game like Pokemon is absolutely massive. Chances to be inflicted with freeze, or to get full Paralyze are reasonable small, but Prankster Swagger is basically a 45% chance (counting miss chance) to not move that turn.
You can load up your team with Lum berries and subs, but that's doing nothing to change the fact that it's a major concern. Someone Swaggers you, you now have a 50% chance that you're not doing to do whatever you planned. This can lose you tempo on an offensive or balanced team, or delay your cleric from curing the Para all over the team. And then your option involves "gamble again" or switching. And every turn you're sitting there switching, is a turn you're not getting very much done.
Edit: And Own Tempo's a fucking joke. Every user of it either has a massive superior ability, or is an absolute shitmon. Confusion has very little viable counterplay, and it's just as annoying as Double Team to play against.
50% chance to entirely miss your turn is kind of a big deal. No matter what your team is, no matter what style you're playing. Even a stall team isn't going to like Parafusion. Even if you have clerics and you take nothing from confusion damage or Foul Play, missing a turn in a game like Pokemon is absolutely massive. Chances to be inflicted with freeze, or to get full Paralyze are reasonable small, but Prankster Swagger is basically a 45% chance (counting miss chance) to not move that turn.
You can load up your team with Lum berries and subs, but that's doing nothing to change the fact that it's a major concern. Someone Swaggers you, you now have a 50% chance that you're not doing to do whatever you planned. This can lose you tempo on an offensive or balanced team, or delay your cleric from curing the Para all over the team. And then your option involves "gamble again" or switching. And every turn you're sitting there switching, is a turn you're not getting very much done.
Edit: And Own Tempo's a fucking joke. Every user of it either has a massive superior ability, or is an absolute shitmon. Confusion has very little viable counterplay, and it's just as annoying as Double Team to play against.
>Swag? hims deal like 24% to klefky, Substitute! but no, well, is my only check, and cannot be paralyzed... Oh goddness!
Well, i wasn't serious with the replay, is my troll team, but the point is "luck was enough".
-Para...electric/ground-type
-Sleep... Do you remember sleep clause? and grass-types/overcoat Mandibuzz?.
-Freeze is for Blizzard spam. Nobody cares.
-You can chose use non-100% accuaracy moves or not. You cannot chose fight a SwagPlay team.
-Quick claw sucks, i go for Choice Scarf. Why anyone run Quick Claw?
-Confuse alone can be easy countered, priority kill speed tiers, Paraswag spam Sub/Tw before you can do anything, is like a priority Minimize.
I never lose to Swagplay, but i want a more skilled metagame.
Then run defensive Clefable and kill every stall team. Then Ban Clefa. Why ban luck when you can ban skill?
Try to yawn an entire team.
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I don't think confusion is as bad as Yawn. With Yawn, in most cases, the opponent gives you two options. Switch out the next turn to avoid the punishment, or stay in to make one more move, then take the punishment. With confusion, it's the same two options, except in confusion's case, the punishment isn't 100% guaranteed. You might be able to make another move with no punishment at all.
I have to disagree. Every time somebody tried to use swagplay on me, they simply did not have enough PP to kill my entire team. (BTW you don't miss a turn when you switch)
That's the way I stall out Swagplay. I keep switching so that they cannot take advantage of swagger.
Try hazards or ScarfTrick Ghoti.
I agree with you on this, at least. This is absolutely ridiculous. Trying to navigate this thread and make arguments is becoming more and more difficult.
I propose that there be two threads: one in which the higher-ups talk and one in which anyone can talk. The higher-ups can check this thread for progress, but it shouldn't have any voting power.
Ever seen a Deo-D lead? Yeah, correct Swagplay likes to use hazards to make switching difficult. Defogging is also hard when majority of the time has Taunt.
^Just saying.
A Deo-D leads and taunts? Sounds more like HO than Swagplay.
Taunt is also hard to fit on a Swagplay mon. Chances are, if a team starts to swagplay me, I'll have enough time to defog away the hazards before they can do much about it.
And yes, I have seen Deo-D leads, and usually they are not a problem.
Any particular reason why Ditto needs the scarf on your team Ale? From the looks of it, most commonly used Ubers outside of Groudon can be paralyzed, meaning that since any +2 mon on the enemy team is almost certainly paralyzed, Ditto will outspeed without needing to lock himself into a choice scarf or any other choice item. I realize that under most circumstances scarf ditto is the best item for him, but having a decent size of your opponents team, including the mon you are planning on revenge killing, does not qualify as "most circumstances" despite the fact that swag play is a strategy designed to bring about just that.
I would argue
<--Lilligant outside of sun pretty much only has Own Tempo. Chlorophyll and Leaf Guard are good *if you're in the sun. Still that's only one I can name and she didn't really get anything to bring her out of RU.
I'm pretty sure that's the setup that's in place right now.
I ran Quick Claw Ditto once, and even with lots of paralysis support it didn't feel as reliable as Choice Scarf.
Can you at least please back this up with the poll or something before you start deleting every post that mentions diversity? From my personal experiences people prefer more diversity to less, and the only thing that came up when I tried searching was http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/ which also says that variety in general is a good thing. It only gets extreme when battles aren't decided as much by battling skill or teambuilding but by a rock-paper-scissors type team matchup system, like the 1v1 metagame. It's extreme when you can't reasonably check every threat, or nearly every threat, and it comes down to whether or not the opponent has something you can't check or vice versa.
I personally don't see that but maybe others do who have been playing longer and have more generations to compare (the metagame is also a bit more varied right now than it will be later simply because people are trying out new things, although that's definitely started to die down by now).
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I would like a ban. There are too many cases where battles are determined by whether or not confusion activates, it makes the game way too luck based. As much as I hate complex bans, confusion makes it just like playing without evasion moves clause.
I won't argue about whether it's too luck based, but Double Team is not the same as, say, Confuse Ray because the opponent can always switch out to reset the effects. Now, Swagger + Prankster makes switching out less useful, but without Prankster, confusion moves are just a tiny bit more productive than Sand Attack.
Lilligant is very niche though. It's not a shitmon, but it's not particularly good in OU unless you're going to be giving it a lot of support (EDIT: it also hates paralysis). There are much better answers to SwagPlay than Own Tempo (Thundurus, Rotom-W, Sylveon, etc) and we should really stop discussing it.
*Resists the urge to claim that all swagplay defenders are advocates of Minimize Chansey*
Fact of the matter is that swagplay introduces an element of luck that that gives the user an enormously cheap advantage. I advocate a ban of all confusion moves in the vein of confuse ray or at least a swagger + prankster ban.
Fact of the matter is that swagplay introduces an element of luck that that gives the user an enormously cheap advantage. I advocate a ban of all confusion moves in the vein of confuse ray or at least a swagger + prankster ban.
Oh. Where's the higher-up thread?
A "good" Swagplay team need only two-three abusers.
Or you only run Fire-Types under Sun?
I made a mistake there, sorry. There's not a seperate thread for moderators, but were are not voting for anything here, and the OU Council could ignore everything said in here.
I would really like for this not to be banned because it's easily shut down by thundurus/Tornadus Taunt or pokemon with Magic bounce/magic coat like Espeon, Mega Absol and smeargle. But if we REALLY needed a ban it's not on swagger or the pokemon who use it, it's the combination of Prankster+swagger. Foul Play with swagger was a legitimate combination back in gen V for very few pokemon like Umbreon. Swagger isn't broken, the pokemon aren't either (who would really ban Klefki, the liepard family, and whimsicott?). Even though it's a complex ban, it's the one that fixes the issues we have right now (which aren't even big tbh). So again, I believe, if a ban is needed, we should ban Prankster+Swagger.
*Sigh* Drek, filth, and scum. I want to see a thread with some sanity in it.
Oh, confusion. Quite possibly one of the most infuriating elements in Pokemon, finding the best way to fix the problem is very difficult. On one hand, confusion can be rid of by switching out the confused Pokemon, and it won't be there the next time you switch back in. On the other hand, however, provided that the user of confusion on your opponent's team hasn't been taken out when you switch back in, it is possible to come back in and have your Pokemon re-afflicted. Because of this it's possible to get screwed over, switch out to not kill yourself, then come back in and have the battle to go on repeat. Also, eventually you can't switch out anymore because you have no other non-fainted Pokemon.
Taunt is probably the best possible move to have against confusion abusers. Sadly, even this has it's flaws. Due to the fact that confusion is almost always paired with the ability Prankster, you would need your own Prankster Pokémon with Taunt to avoid getting confused. While these Pokémon do exist, they're not always going to be able to fit in your team. And if they do, or are already on your team, they might not have the moveslot to spare for Taunt.
Yes, there are other ways to get around confusion, such as the ability Magic Bounce and the move Magic Coat for Swagger, Confuse Ray, etc. The most common users of these things, however, are weak to Foul Play, witch is part of Liepard's cookie-cutter Swagpard set from last Gen that I'd imagine most of these complaints are based off of. (That set, for a reminder, is Swagger/Foul Play/Thunder Wave/Substitute) Said set plagued the NU tier of yester-gen for being awfully luck-based, to the point of putting Liepard up for a ban just before X & Y hit. Sets like that are able to take the fun out of a match, possibly making every turn a coin flip more often than not in the Swagpard user's favor.
Of course, Liepard isn't the only Pokemon that's going to have Confusion + Thunder Wave/Prankster, with things such as Klefki having better bulk and typing than Liepard, with all the same things at it's disposal. However, while these sets do exist, not every Liepard/Klefki/etc. is going to be using those sets, making a ban on everything that can use it rather silly. At the same time, flat-out banning confusion also isn't very good, because zero priority confusion moves aren't anywhere near as annoying as a plus one priority ones.
Because of this, I would suggest banning Moves that all they do is cause Confusion + Prankster.
Those are my two cents on the matter. Take with them what you will, considering this is my first post.
Taunt is probably the best possible move to have against confusion abusers. Sadly, even this has it's flaws. Due to the fact that confusion is almost always paired with the ability Prankster, you would need your own Prankster Pokémon with Taunt to avoid getting confused. While these Pokémon do exist, they're not always going to be able to fit in your team. And if they do, or are already on your team, they might not have the moveslot to spare for Taunt.
Yes, there are other ways to get around confusion, such as the ability Magic Bounce and the move Magic Coat for Swagger, Confuse Ray, etc. The most common users of these things, however, are weak to Foul Play, witch is part of Liepard's cookie-cutter Swagpard set from last Gen that I'd imagine most of these complaints are based off of. (That set, for a reminder, is Swagger/Foul Play/Thunder Wave/Substitute) Said set plagued the NU tier of yester-gen for being awfully luck-based, to the point of putting Liepard up for a ban just before X & Y hit. Sets like that are able to take the fun out of a match, possibly making every turn a coin flip more often than not in the Swagpard user's favor.
Of course, Liepard isn't the only Pokemon that's going to have Confusion + Thunder Wave/Prankster, with things such as Klefki having better bulk and typing than Liepard, with all the same things at it's disposal. However, while these sets do exist, not every Liepard/Klefki/etc. is going to be using those sets, making a ban on everything that can use it rather silly. At the same time, flat-out banning confusion also isn't very good, because zero priority confusion moves aren't anywhere near as annoying as a plus one priority ones.
Because of this, I would suggest banning Moves that all they do is cause Confusion + Prankster.
Those are my two cents on the matter. Take with them what you will, considering this is my first post.
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