Swirlix and Gligar have been banned

[acestriker19]

Ok first things, first I'm going to paste in the moveset statistics for Swirlix and Gligar because I feel that they will lead to some more sound factual discussion

Gligar

+----------------------------------------+ 
 | Gligar                                 | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Raw count: 35979                       | 
 | Avg. weight: 0.807103955754            | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Abilities                              | 
 | Hyper Cutter 63.918%                   | 
 | Immunity 32.499%                       | 
 | Sand Veil  3.583%                      | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Items                                  | 
 | Berry Juice 58.866%                    | 
 | Eviolite 34.357%                       | 
 | Nothing  2.638%                        | 
 | Other  4.139%                          | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Spreads                                | 
 | Jolly:0/236/0/0/0/236 36.619%          | 
 | Impish:0/36/236/0/236/0 10.626%        | 
 | Adamant:0/236/0/0/236/0  6.945%        | 
 | Jolly:36/236/0/0/0/236  3.568%         | 
 | Jolly:0/252/0/0/0/252  3.299%          | 
 | Jolly:0/236/0/0/36/236  2.323%         | 
 | Other 36.619%                          | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Moves                                  | 
 | Earthquake 96.692%                     | 
 | Acrobatics 66.271%                     | 
 | Swords Dance 39.590%                   | 
 | Knock Off 35.557%                      | 
 | Roost 33.465%                          | 
 | Stealth Rock 26.760%                   | 
 | U-turn 22.688%                         | 
 | Defog 21.001%                          | 
 | Substitute 17.993%                     | 
 | Taunt  7.024%                          | 
 | Toxic  6.855%                          | 
 | Stone Edge  4.926%                     | 
 | Aqua Tail  4.164%                      | 
 | Other 17.014%                          | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Teammates                              | 
 | Meditite +10.484%                      | 
 | Pawniard +8.911%                       | 
 | Swirlix +5.717%                        | 
 | Slowpoke +4.040%                       | 
 | Carvanha +3.169%                       | 
 | Chinchou +2.022%                       | 
 | Larvesta +1.827%                       | 
 | Spritzee +1.691%                       | 
 | Tirtouga +1.094%                       | 
 | Munchlax +0.929%                       | 
 | Magnemite +0.639%                      | 
 | Foongus +0.368%                        | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Checks and Counters                    | 
 | Shellder 79.264 (86.59±1.83)           |
 |	 (44.6% KOed / 42.0% switched out)| 
 | Staryu 73.671 (80.62±1.74)             |
 |	 (31.9% KOed / 48.7% switched out)| 
 | Wailmer 73.246 (84.41±2.79)            |
 |	 (36.4% KOed / 48.0% switched out)| 
 | Carvanha 72.268 (79.40±1.78)           |
 |	 (36.2% KOed / 43.2% switched out)| 
 | Tirtouga 71.376 (76.80±1.36)           |
 |	 (44.9% KOed / 31.9% switched out)| 
 | Porygon 71.316 (76.74±1.36)            |
 |	 (34.7% KOed / 42.1% switched out)| 
 | Corphish 69.565 (78.83±2.32)           |
 |	 (37.2% KOed / 41.6% switched out)| 
 | Elekid 69.300 (76.31±1.75)             |
 |	 (39.4% KOed / 36.9% switched out)| 
 | Clamperl 66.061 (77.47±2.85)           |
 |	 (42.0% KOed / 35.5% switched out)| 
 | Slowpoke 64.657 (69.42±1.19)           |
 |	 (19.7% KOed / 49.7% switched out)| 
 | Snover 64.505 (74.85±2.59)             |
 |	 (33.1% KOed / 41.8% switched out)| 
 | Froakie 64.149 (73.43±2.32)            |
 |	 (24.4% KOed / 49.1% switched out)| 
 +----------------------------------------+

Swirlix

+----------------------------------------+ 
 | Swirlix                                | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Raw count: 21874                       | 
 | Avg. weight: 0.758544724662            | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Abilities                              | 
 | Unburden 96.438%                       | 
 | Sweet Veil  3.562%                     | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Items                                  | 
 | Berry Juice 94.620%                    | 
 | Eviolite  1.852%                       | 
 | Other  3.528%                          | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Spreads                                | 
 | Modest:0/0/0/204/100/204 13.149%       | 
 | Adamant:0/212/0/0/92/204 12.720%       | 
 | Modest:20/0/68/204/0/204  7.123%       | 
 | Adamant:0/212/68/0/0/204  4.727%       | 
 | Naughty:0/212/0/92/0/204  3.408%       | 
 | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252  2.782%        | 
 | Other 56.091%                          | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Moves                                  | 
 | Belly Drum 52.114%                     | 
 | Play Rough 51.596%                     | 
 | Calm Mind 44.949%                      | 
 | Flamethrower 44.737%                   | 
 | Return 42.429%                         | 
 | Dazzling Gleam 26.765%                 | 
 | Cotton Guard 23.928%                   | 
 | Draining Kiss 23.580%                  | 
 | Thief 20.089%                          | 
 | Surf 17.797%                           | 
 | Protect  8.567%                        | 
 | Aromatherapy  6.744%                   | 
 | Thunderbolt  6.526%                    | 
 | Substitute  5.900%                     | 
 | Psychic  5.119%                        | 
 | Other 19.161%                          | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Teammates                              | 
 | Gligar +9.498%                         | 
 | Meditite +6.841%                       | 
 | Carvanha +4.075%                       | 
 | Tirtouga +3.686%                       | 
 | Pawniard +3.478%                       | 
 | Wynaut +1.283%                         | 
 | Magby +1.241%                          | 
 | Zigzagoon +1.099%                      | 
 | Misdreavus +0.952%                     | 
 | Dwebble +0.926%                        | 
 | Surskit +0.318%                        | 
 | Totodile +0.242%                       | 
 +----------------------------------------+ 
 | Checks and Counters                    | 
 | Magnemite 63.443 (71.05±1.90)          |
 |	 (57.1% KOed / 13.9% switched out)| 
 | Grimer 58.963 (76.31±4.34)             |
 |	 (51.4% KOed / 25.0% switched out)| 
 | Zigzagoon 53.274 (75.81±5.63)          |
 |	 (69.5% KOed / 6.3% switched out) | 
 +----------------------------------------+

While I was pasting this in every single argument I wanted to make has already been made and then some...:/.

Well I still have some bulletpoints about their stats that I feel are interesting

• Holy crap look at checks and counters for swirlix.... there are only three XD.
• Swirlix has 10 moves all above 15% usage (confirming unpredictability)
• Assuming Berry Juice Gligar are more offensive variants and Eviolite are more utility Gligar. Gligar is offensive 60% of the time and utility 40% (again statistically confirming unpredictability).

Baton Pass: The biggest argument in Gligar's favor, in my opinion, is Baton Pass. Ok, you are sick of Gligar running rampant and you brought Shellos. You then throw your Ice Beam at it, only to be met with a +2 Pawniard or Scraggy. Good bye Shellos, and most importantly, good bye the rest of your team. If you guess wrong with a Baton Pass Gligar, you lose.

While I undestand the potential theoretical fear of baton pass gligar, in reality baton pass isn't even used enough to make it into his stats. As this is a discussion of Gligar as a whole the very, very small % of variants that runs Baton Pass shouldn't really be considered unless its above about 10% usage. Same with Rock Polish/Agility variants.

 

[Holiday]

Swirlix
1-Is it broken?
Swirlix, IMO is broken. It has a plethora of sets to utilize its amazing abilities Sweet Veil and (more importantly) Unburden. Since the opponent can't guarantee which set the Swirlix runs, one tiny mis-prediction can very well mean the end of the game. Small in depth for each set.

Belly Drum: this set utilizes belly drum with unburden to quadruple attack while doubling speed, making it difficult to revenge kill without priority. Between coverage of play rough and return, along with thief or protect allow Swirlix to punch holes into many teams.

Calm Mind: This set takes a similar approach to the above set while attacking on the special side. With an AMAZING special move pool including dazzling gleam, surf and flamethrower along with a possible hp of choice, Swirlix can damage much of a team with one calm mind boost and wrecks havoc with two boosts.

Cotton Guard/Calm mind: This set takes a bulky approach by boosting your defense to high levels with cotton guard, then using CM to amp up special attack AND SPECIAL DEFENSE. With a boost from both and an unburden boost it becomes incredibly difficult to break when used with draining kiss.

Sweet Veil Wall: a less common set that utilizes cotton guard and its immunity to sleep to wall common sporers such as foongus and paras.

2- Is Swirlix making the metagame not fun?

Despite commonly using it, I do think it makes the metagame not fun. Many people rage at me for using it, whereas I rage at being swept by it. It's becoming rather over centralizing by forcing teams to carry niche Pokemon or moves to combat it.

3-Are one and two making people not want to play LC?

Yes. I saw firsthand someone say "If every team is gonna run Gligar and Swirlix, I'm not playing this shit until it they get banned."


Swirlix is an overall problem in this metagame that will leave it broken until fixed via ban. Now onto Gligar.

Gligar
1-Is Gligar broken?

To a lesser extent than Swirlix, but yes. Gligar is broken. An argument I hear a lot that I agree with is "Why not use gligar?" And it's true. With a sweeping set, defogger set and a wall set, there is no reason not to use this amazing Pokemon. Let's analyze some sets.

Sub Swords- this set is basically in its name. Set up Substitutes, Swords dance behind them if given the chance, activate berry juice and start an acrobatics or earthquake sweep. Very few things can stop it if nothing has ice coverage, which is becoming common SOLELY TO COMBAT GLIGAR.

Defogger- with Stealth rocks and sticky web a common sight in LC, many teams rely on the hazard so wear down the opposition. With a base 19 speed defog and a base 17 (May be off...) attack, Gligar can dispel ground weak Pokemon and hazards in one Pokemon. While murkrow gets prankster and vullaby having on par bulk, Gligar's strength at having offensive stability is what really gives it a good defogging niche.

Wall- Physical attacks ruining your day? Slap an eviolite Onto Gligar and go! Barring OBV ice type attacks, Gligar will happily sit and wall your attacks while striking back with an earthquake or knock off, and will probably set up rocks as well, another niche it has over vullaby and murkrow. With roost and toxic to stall teams alongside a poison status immunity, Gligar is not going down to physical attacks without a fight.

2- Is Gligar making the metagame not fun to play?

I REALLY LOVE GLIGAR. But yes. It's very frustrating to play around. Without a special attacker or ice shard, defeating gligar can be a pain. Being swept sucks. Being walled sucks. Many a forfeit of mine come from not being able to circumvent gligar as a problem on my team to the point where every special attack had to have HP ice. Like I said before. There's just NOT a good reason not to use gligar. Except maybe if half your team has an ice or water weakness, but then that's just plain dumb.

3- Are one and two making people not want to play LC?

Read #3 under Swirlix. Same answer applies.

Gligar is just too damn good and over centralized ice type coverage, making certain niche Pokemon sprout up just to take it out (Swinub, Scarf Snover, HP Ice) there is never a good reason not to use Gligar over say, Murkrow or Vullaby minus mixed attacking, which murkrow does better.

Closing thoughts: Swirlix and Gligar both over centralize the metagame as is and really is stopping growth of this tier. I love both these Pokemon, but it's best to see them go.

(Sorry for the mammoth read. Just needed to cover everything I thought was relevant. :D)

 

[Heysup]

While I undestand the potential theoretical fear of baton pass gligar, in reality baton pass isn't even used enough to make it into his stats. As this is a discussion of Gligar as a whole the very, very small % of variants that runs Baton Pass shouldn't really be considered unless its above about 10% usage. Same with Rock Polish/Agility variants.

Usage is irrelevant in the way you're using it because you're using it to dismiss arguments of viability, which is not the same as usage. There are countless Pokemon who are barely even used that get banned because of their power. BP Gligar is viable, good players use it (I've seen it used at least twice in SPL) and it's an option for Gligar to get around its counters in a slot that is used for Substitute / Knock Off that are not "essential" to Gligar's success.

Same thing with Rock Polish - the points still stand.

 

[Vileman]

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?
Swilirx: Indeed, it is. This pokemon can use a variety of options for sweeping, the main problem about this is how the only reliable source for dealing with it its not just priority but bullet punch, as it reaches an extremely good speed tier after the unburden boost, which is quite easy to get. While using the special attacker set, it has good coverage including flamethrower, surf and thunderbolt, so it can hit plenty of pokemon for supper effective damage, tearing the tier apart after just a single boost. Another set that gives everyone problem is the belly drum set, which maximizes his attack in 1 turn, and thanks to berry juice it leaves swilirx back to full health and with a lot of speed. Another set that isnt as used but is arguably more problematic s the cotton guard set, which makes swilirx an extremely bulky pokemon, so its no longer too bullet punch weak/priority weak.
Main thing about this poke is how common walls wont wall him as they usually are made to counter one of these two sets, but cant handle the other. In example: lickitung handles the CM set well, tanking attacks pretty well, but will fall to the BD set after any form of prior damage.
There are a few ways of dealing with swirlix, and they arent very reliable. Sturdyjuice users, most notably magnemite can handle it, but any form of hazards/prior damage wont allow it to do the job. Different walls handle different sets: the BD set is handled by ferroseed (altho flamethrower will hurt in case he uses it), the CM set cant do anything to pokes like munchlax, lickitung or mantyke(in case it lacks thunderbolt, which is quite often.)
Meditite stands out as the best revenge killer for swilirx, as a combination of fake out + bullet punch will bring down any non cotton guard swilirx set.
All of these points make me say that swilirx is indeed, broken.

Gligar: I am not too decided on what to say about gligar, as im not sure if its broken or not.
Gligar excells at the sets he uses: The subSd set its deadly to unprepared teams, or to teams with just 1 counter for it as usually gligar is paired up with a teammate that can handle his counters. He can also run a defensive set, which walls a lot of physical attackers due to his high bulk. While using this set it can use defog/SR, roost Eq and u-turn to be a really good defensive pokemon.
Gligar has amazing stats, he reaches the 19 speed tier which is excellent, but this leads to a lot of speed ties that can screw him up while facing pokes like staryu and misdreavus, but this is often patched with substitute. His attack and defense are excellent, so its a strong, fast pokemon who is not easily killed on the physical side. His special defense isnt amazing but its still good, but super effective special attacks will often kill him.
Gligar isnt easy to handle at all, he can rip appart teams with the SD set and has excellent stats, i dont know if this is enough to say broken but for me, its unhealthy for the metagame as it centralizes it.

2) Is Swirlix / Gligar making Little Cup not fun?
Im not going to lie here: using swilirx is very fun. But making games fun doesnt means that its not broken: it often leads to easy wins against some teams, although in high level plays it will probably never get an easy win. Swilirx is easy to use, a pain to face as you really have to be prepared for it while teambuilding, restricting you to certain pokes that can handle it, although this usually isnt a problem as these pokes can handle not only swilirx but a couple of other pokemon, so its not a poke who is making gimmicky, bad pokemons have usage.

Gligar on the other hand, for me, its just annoying to face, although using it can be fun due to how it can mess up people with mind games. The amount of games that are decided by speed ties are a lot, and this isn't fun at all. He also gives easy wins with the subsd set, because as i said, its not easy to kill due to his high bulk, and it also has a lot of speed and attack so its not lacking in any part of his stats. Dealing with gligar restricts teambuilding a lot, and while playing you also have to guess what set its using, as if you guess wrong, and this is something ive heard a lot of times, its pretty much gg.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Well, having strong, probably broken pokemon available for use isn't something that scares people away from lc, in fact i'd say brokemons are fun to use (not to face at all) is something that might attract new people to play lc, although once they learn to play lc for real they might start getting tired of teambuilding thinking about how to not be completly destroyed by these 2 pokemons.

 

[acestriker19]

Usage is irrelevant in the way you're using it because you're using it to dismiss arguments of viability, which is not the same as usage. There are countless Pokemon who are barely even used that get banned because of their power. BP Gligar is viable, good players use it (I've seen it used at least twice in SPL) and it's an option for Gligar to get around its counters in a slot that is used for Substitute / Knock Off that are not "essential" to Gligar's success.

Same thing with Rock Polish - the points still stand.

I personally feel both usage and viability are necessary to argue a reason for banning if you feel differently go ahead, but for me the 2% chance (40% chance of Gligar * 4% chance Baton Pass or Rock Polish) of running into Gligar who run Baton Pass or Rock Polish on the standard ladder isn't nearly common enough for me to feel it is a real valid reason for it to banned, There are plenty of other reasons for it to be banned though but listing these would just be redundant.

 

[Corporal Levi]

I personally feel both usage and viability are necessary to argue a reason for banning if you feel differently go ahead, but for me the 2% chance (40% chance of Gligar * 4% chance Baton Pass or Rock Polish) of running into Gligar who run Baton Pass or Rock Polish on the standard ladder isn't nearly common enough for me to feel it is a real valid reason for it to banned, There are plenty of other reasons for it to be banned though but listing these would just be redundant.

I'm inclined to disagree. Even though baton pass isn't very popular on Gligar, it is still a completely valid move in many situations, further emphasizing Gligar's versatility and effectiveness. Gligar is undeniably one of the best baton passers in addition to being so good at everything else, and access to even Baton Pass to get around its checks and counters goes to show how powerful Gligar really is.

 

[chimp]

I personally feel both usage and viability are necessary to argue a reason for banning if you feel differently go ahead, but for me the 2% chance (40% chance of Gligar * 4% chance Baton Pass or Rock Polish) of running into Gligar who run Baton Pass or Rock Polish on the standard ladder isn't nearly common enough for me to feel it is a real valid reason for it to banned, There are plenty of other reasons for it to be banned though but listing these would just be redundant.

Just because its not likely it won't use a certain move, doesn't mean you shouldn't count it towards gligar's reasons for being banned. What matters most is that it CAN use them, and many players will take advantage of how they are so uncommon. For example, Mienfoo rarely runs Baton Pass, but that doesn't make it any worse than any of its other sets, and one should take careful precautions against it just in case they do see it. Actually, the fact that good moves like Baton Pass and Rock Polish are under 10% is a testament to what gligar is doing to the metagame. There is no need to experiment with gligar since its standard set is so easy and works so well.

edit: ninja'd by corporal levi lol

 

[dcae]

ok ik most niggas don't agree with my opinions but yolo idgaf

Swirlix:

Swirlix is ridiculously broken. It has 2 ridiculously broken sets: Cotton Guard CM and BD. We all know BD, that's the set you always predict it is. Then you get fucked by CG CM if you mispredicted. Both sets are impossible to handle without Meditite or something that survives return and resists Play Rough. Offense can only run Meditite. THEN, BD can bypass its counters through the use of Protect/Thief/Flamethrower/Aromatherapy. You never know whats going on. Swirlix is imo the most broken mon to ever grace LC, and I'm glad to see it go. nuff said.

Gligar:

This is where we conflict. I believe Gligar is the absolute best pkmn in LC, but it is not banworthy. It is good at 75% of roles on a team, yes. It is an amazing sweeper, yes. But this doesn't warrant a ban imo, as everything it carries can be stopped. As an SR/defog user, its really not threatening to the opponent. The terrifying offensive threat has the dilemma of running Sub > Knock Off and being able to trigger BJ when needed/beat offense or use Knock off and break defense but can't trigger bj at will. It does have a minor case of 4mss. Gligar is imo quite comparable to missy despite their differences. Both are tremendously versatile and amazing sweepers. Last gen I would run Missy on every single team i made because it was fucking good. However, it wasn't broken. This gen Gligar's utility has increased, but I don't think it is a banworthy pkmn. If you want more argument hmu on #littlecup.

 

[The Avalanches]

1. Swirlix

Swirlix came into LC blessed with a good typing, a great offensive and defensive movepool and an incredible ability in Unburden which Swirlix uses in tandem with Berry Juice to reach an unassailable speed and cut teams down. After a Belly Drum, or a few Calm Minds, Swirlix can kill nearly anything in the tier except for a few obscure checks people are forced to run in order to shut Swirlix down, such as Tentacool and Koffing.

To me, Swirlix is a centralizing threat. Every LC team must carry some kind of answer to both Belly Drum and Calm Mind versions of Swirlix or attempt to phaze it with Clear Smog or Haze, or risk an embarrassing sweep.

Swirlix is even able to shrug off powerful Iron Heads after a single Cotton Guard, leaving it free to set up, activate its Juice and sweep teams with almost no possibility of being revenge killed.

My Opinion: Swirlix has too much going for it. It has a broad movepool, both offensively and defensively. Fairy-typing is also offensively and defensively sound, and Unburden is one of the best sweeping abilities in the game. I think he should be banned.

My Prediction: Little Cup will be sugar-free. The need for an offensive Fairy will make Snubbull viable.

2. Gligar

Gligar, fresh from his Gen V ban, came back into the Little Cup tier. While Gligar didn't really recieve any new toys, aside from the upgraded Defog and Knock Off, it carried the highest Base Stat total in the tier, having exceptional Attack, Defense and Speed stats. Gligar can be fit onto nearly any team and can fill a number of roles; a Swords Dance sweeper with Berry Juice, a defensive set with Knock Off and Stealth Rock/Defog, and even a Choice Scarf set.

Gligar has a brilliant movepool, with Earthquake, Acrobatics, Stone Edge, U-Turn, Knock Off and even Aqua Tail which enables it to hit anything it may be having trouble with, answering to all of its counters. Slowpoke and Chinchou can't afford to take a Knock Off, less bulky Water-types don't want an Earthquake, and Archen falls to a Stone Edge. It also has a great supportive movepool, complete with rocks, Defog and Roost.

Gligar is less difficult to stop from cutting down teams than Swirlix. A 4x weakness to Ice means that Choice Scarfers with an Ice attack, like Chinchou and Snover can take Gligar down. Despite this, Gligar is the most common threat in the LC tier, and like Swirlix, an answer to it is necessary.

My Opinion: Gligar can be a discouraging sight to newer players. Despite having less raw power than Swirlix, Gligar has a huge move pool, some scary stats and a great defensive typing and is an overcentralisng threat.

My Prediction: Gligar will also be banned. The less relevant counters it has will fade into obscurity.

 

[acestriker19]

I'm inclined to disagree. Even though baton pass isn't very popular on Gligar, it is still a completely valid move in many situations, further emphasizing Gligar's versatility and effectiveness. Gligar is undeniably one of the best baton passers in addition to being so good at everything else, and access to even Baton Pass to get around its checks and counters goes to show how powerful Gligar really is.

Just because its not likely it won't use a certain move, doesn't mean you shouldn't count it towards gligar's reasons for being banned. What matters most is that it CAN use them, and many players will take advantage of how they are so uncommon. For example, Mienfoo rarely runs Baton Pass, but that doesn't make it any worse than any of its other sets, and one should take careful precautions against it just in case they do see it. Actually, the fact that good moves like Baton Pass and Rock Polish are under 10% is a testament to what gligar is doing to the metagame. There is no need to experiment with gligar since its standard set is so easy and works so well.

edit: ninja'd by corporal levi lol

Wow double teamed XD. Okay I guess I can see your point as I can't really deny that Baton Pass / Rock Polish doesn't have viability on Gligar and it means another niche it can fill despite how little its used.

 

[typon77]

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?

As a short answer, yes, I firmly believe that both of these pokemon are broken. They both have the ability to run several different sets with different capabilities that can beat different checks. The problem is that any set you run on either of these pokemon is so effective that a mispredict can lead to a loss of several pokemon or the entire match.

I'll start with Swirlix. I'm not even gonna bother discussing the offensive Calm Mind set because, while it is a very effective late game sweeper that can clean up in most scenarios, its not nearly as broken as the other two sets in terms of ability to destroy teams. The Belly Drum set has been prominent throughout most of XY LC, and for good reason. The ability to either take a hit and get to +6 Attack and double speed is absolutely ridiculous. Swirlix's natural bulk lets it avoid OHKO's from all but the most powerful moves in the metagame, so if your pokemon isn't LO Murkrow or Acrobatics Gligar, Swirlix is surviving the hit and getting its boost. After it has the boost, it outspeeds everything and OHKO's (virtually) everything, and it forces you to run meh pokemon like Grimer to beat it. However, the worst Swirlix set by far is the stupid fucking Cotton Guard set. Before I actually support my argument, I just wanted to say that this set singlehandedly made me stop laddering on LC. It's so unfun to play against and even to use that I can't stand it, but I'll go into detail on that set later. However, when you use the Cotton Guard / Calm Mind / Aromatherapy / Draining Kiss set, most teams have little ways to stop this. Your options for consistently beating this set are very, very limited. It can take on Meditite, Swirlix's best check for her other two sets, after a single Cotton Guard, and heal to near full health after the exchange due to the ridiculous heal rate on Draining Kiss. You basically have to run Haze Murkrow, which will be damaged severely in the process and force Murkrow to give up one of its superior coverage or support options, or something barely viable like Liquid Ooze Tentacool with Clear Smog. This set would be scary enough even if it was just the 4 moves and Swirlix's stats, but then you have to take into account that it gets an automatic full heal in Berry Juice, giving it full health and likely multiple stat boosts, and then AN UNBURDEN BOOST. And while some may argue that it takes several turns to boost up, all Swirlix needs is to not set up when there's Haze Murkrow/Tentacool alive and use the appropriate boosting move for the predicted switch in. All of this while still being able to switch in on many common attacker and retain the ability to sweep. This set is hard to deal with even if you know this is coming, but the fact that it could still being using the also broken (on a mon as versatile as Swirlix) Belly Drum set let's it punish mispredictions and cause opponents to have to guess the set. The importance of preparing for and setting up Swirlix sweeps in this metagame just shows how overcentralizing it is, and the fact that it has multiple sweeping sets that are so hard to revenge kill, and even damage (in the case of Cotton Guard), shows that Swirlix should be banned.

Now to Gligar, who I see as about equally as broken as Swirlix, but not quite as unfun to have in the metagame. We've all used Gligar before. Using Gligar on your teams is basically essential at this point. While Swirlix is simply at late game cleaner that happens to be by far the best at its job, there are other pokemon that can fill that role to a still very successful level (such as Carvahna). However, Gligar is that pokemon in the metagame that can do many things with each of its sets, and between all of its sets it can accomplish almost anything and defeat most pokemon. It can sweep with its amazing 19 Speed, two high powered STAB moves that are arguably the two best physical attacking types in the metagame right now that also have good coverage with each other, and its access to Swords Dance and Berry Juice (to tank a hit and power up Acrobatics). It can also scout very well, as it is great at forcing switches, and with Knock Off and U-Turn, it can punish switch-ins better than basically any other pokemon in the metagame, as very little can truly function to its full potential after having its item knocked off, and U-Turn gives you a free switch-in to an appropriate check or counter. Speaking of Knock Off, Gligar is, without a doubt, the best Knock Off switch-in in the entire metagame (well Swirlix is close). Gligar has excellent physical bulk, even without Eviolite, and a fantastic defensive typing for a physical wall/pivot, so it can still function without its item. However, once Gligar's offensive sets have their item knocked off, Gligar sacrifices 30% health (unless its Pawniard) for a free powered up Acrobatics. Because of all of these strengths that Gligar brings to the table, it is essentially a necessity on any team. Adding Gligar to a team will always help, no matter what kind of sets. It can be Defensive without costing momentum, it can be offensive while still being able to provide a defensive backbone, it can support with Stealth Rock, Defog, and Knock Off. It will always help the team out, whether that be through softening up walls for other sweepers with powerful moves and Knock Off, creating free switch-ins for frail teammates, or any form of hazard control. Due to its massive overcentralization and proven utility, I also believe that Gligar should be banned.


2) Is Swirlix / Gligar making Little Cup not fun?

Yes, absolutely. While the usage stats only kind of reflect Gligar's overcentralization (which isn't nearly severe as Mienfoo's last gen) and do not reflect Swirlix's at all, once you get up to the middle ladder, these pokemon are on virtually every team. There are several reasons for this. A majority of the battles I've played recently were when everyone was scrambling for reqs, so the easiest way to acquire said reqs was to spam these brokenmons. I personally hated using them, but did it so I could get these two out of the metagame. Let me say this, the number of games that came down to Gligar speed ties to prevent the other person's Gligar from sweeping your remaining team was ridiculous. Everybody used Gligar, and with proper prediction, it can stay alive for most of the game and continue to pound you into submission. In Swirlix's case, that fucking Cotton Guard set lead to most of my losses (at least to lower ranked players) than anything else. I refused to let that stupid thing sweep me, so I had to run Meditite AND Munchlax with Whirlwind just to make sure I didn't get swept by Swirlix, and I still got swept by it because Meditite only stops BD really well and Munchlax basically gives Swirlix a free full heal before it gets phazed. Plus Munchlax is really easy to wear down over the course of a battle, as I used both RecycleJuice (Not as bulky) and Eviolite (Rest+Talk is meh recovery), and can be a huge opportunity cost. As soon as I got my reqs, I stopped laddering seriously because looking at Swirlix sticking its tongue out at me as it drained the life out of my teams made me mad. So yes, both of these pokemon, Swirlix in particular, make LC not fun for me.


3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

If I'm having these feelings, I'm going to assume that there are other people that feel the same way, so yes, I believe that Swirlix/Gligar's overcentralization and abilities are deterring individuals from playing LC. From my perspective, laddering while these pokemon are in the metagame just isn't fun at all, as I don't have fun building my own teams and I certainly don't have fun playing against these two pokemon, so I just simply stopped playing LC for the time being. They're just so broken and so easy to put on any team that they give basically anyone a hidden win factor just by winning that one speed tie or statusing that one pokemon that can take on Swirlix. I also hated when people (specifically lower ladderers when I first started alts) would say "Man, (Swirlix/Gligar) is really broken. I can't seem to beat them" after I would sweep them. While these players weren't exactly the best and shouldn't be used as the be-all-end-all examples, they were on the level of using competent looking teams, but they weren't seasoned enough in battling, and the constant pressure of these two pokemon lead them to consistent losses, so I'm guessing these people were deterred from taking LC more seriously.

I'm hoping that at least one of these pokemon gets banned so that the metagame changes and people don't have to run Grimer or Ice moves on everything anymore, but in reality I really want to see both of these pokemon out. I know people are speculating that other pokemon will rise as broken once these two are gone, but we can deal with that when the time comes, and none of the really good pokemon seem to gain much from these two being banned, with the exception of maybe Pawniard (Meditite, Missy, and Krow are all really good and will remain that way). We never ban based on what could happen after the ban, so let's ban these mofos and see what happens from their. Any new metagame will be less stale and better than this..

 

[atomicllamas]

Gligar

Okay, so to be honest I am not 100% sure if Gligar is or is not broken, it is certainly good, probably the best Pokemon in the tier right now, but that doesn't *necessarily* make it broken. Gligar is however extremely hard to play against, because you don't know what kind of annoying it's gonna be, it could be the Sub Swords dance set looking for a free turn, or a bulky support set that still hits like a sack of bricks. While Gligar has some decent counters, such as Slowpoke and Corphish, as well as quite a few checks, Gligar has a way to get around all of them, or at least cripple them or later (U-turn, Knock off, aqua tail for other gligar, etc.). Because of this, there is no way to reliably deal with Gligar, forcing you to run far to many checks and counters to Gligar.

+----------------------------------------+
| Gligar Usage 40% of teams |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 35979 |
| Avg. weight: 0.807103955754 |
+----------------------------------------+

This to me is revealing, no, not the fact that it is on 40% of teams, the fact that its weight is > 0.8 (average is ~0.6, 0.7 is really good, Swirlix is 0.75 for example). To me this statistic, along with personal experience playing in LC has revealed that there is legitimately no reason to not include Gligar on a serious team. It can do almost anything you need it too, and it can do it with ease.

Another thing that I found pretty revealing is that of the 30 LC teams used in the first 3 weeks of SPL, 23 (77%) of them contained Gligar. This to me is really the problem with Gligar, this over centralization of the meta game has started to stunt the tiers growth, because it really limits team building.

This is the first time I have ever answered question 2 for these suspect threads, but I have to say that Gligar really does make LC less fun, and since right now, SPL is the face of the meta to many people not playing LC, I do think it deters people from playing LC (or even taking it seriously as a tier). I had a pretty revealing interaction with user: Pwnemon on the ladder when we played, and I was using my Dark Horse team, he responded, "I can't even tell who is winning, I usually decide based on whose Gligar dies first." And in all honesty that is kind of what LC has become, a stagnant meta game based on using my Gligar better than your Gligar, I believe it is best for a healthy meta game if Gligar is banned.

 

[chimp]

ok ik most niggas don't agree with my opinions but yolo idgaf

Swirlix:

Swirlix is ridiculously broken. It has 2 ridiculously broken sets: Cotton Guard CM and BD. We all know BD, that's the set you always predict it is. Then you get fucked by CG CM if you mispredicted. Both sets are impossible to handle without Meditite or something that survives return and resists Play Rough. Offense can only run Meditite. THEN, BD can bypass its counters through the use of Protect/Thief/Flamethrower/Aromatherapy. You never know whats going on. Swirlix is imo the most broken mon to ever grace LC, and I'm glad to see it go. nuff said.

Gligar:

This is where we conflict. I believe Gligar is the absolute best pkmn in LC, but it is not banworthy. It is good at 75% of roles on a team, yes. It is an amazing sweeper, yes. But this doesn't warrant a ban imo, as everything it carries can be stopped. As an SR/defog user, its really not threatening to the opponent. The terrifying offensive threat has the dilemma of running Sub > Knock Off and being able to trigger BJ when needed/beat offense or use Knock off and break defense but can't trigger bj at will. It does have a minor case of 4mss. Gligar is imo quite comparable to missy despite their differences. Both are tremendously versatile and amazing sweepers. Last gen I would run Missy on every single team i made because it was fucking good. However, it wasn't broken. This gen Gligar's utility has increased, but I don't think it is a banworthy pkmn. If you want more argument hmu on #littlecup.

I know this is like my 10 trillionth post in this thread, but I just wanted to say that partly agree with you on gligar. I don't think gligar is broken. Most of its sets, unlike that of swirlix, are checked by the same pokemon. That said, I can see why people want it banned. It basically boils down to how its not hard for gligar to muscle through most of its would-be-counters, reducing them to just checks. Slowpoke is 2KOd by +2 EQ. Archen is knocked into Defeatist range with +2 Acrobatics. Misdreavus has to rely on annoying speed ties.

Another reason why I could see it banned is because its everywhere and can do everything. Gligar, quite literally, has it all: reliable recovery, support moves, fantastic STAB, etc.... which is why I can understand why a lot of people want to see it go.

 

[blarajan]

i think in the future i'm just going to ban things because i don't want to read this thread

i'm sorry spl managers i understand your pain

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Swirlix: More broken than snorunt after getting hit up by a +6 adamant banded terrakion's critical close combat. The two sets mentioned above CG CM and BD are just ridiculous, as they both have 1. insane power and 2. insane unpredictability. relying on LO Tite to revenge swirl? not if it has protect or CG you aren't. Swirlix has so many things in it's favor, sporting just enough bulk to reliably set up, just enough power to reliably wallbreak, and more than enough speed to sweep with aforementioned power. swirlix is literally forcing the metagame to find good, viable counters/checks for it, and it's becoming apparent that it's really hard to do so. even hazekrow still gets hit hard by a play rough from unboosted swirlix, as murk isn't the bulkiest pokemon. almost every team literally HAS to carry a COUNTER, not just a check to the swirlix sets, and because they're on two different sides of the spectrum, it's ridiculous trying to come up with new crap because everthing is already slowly starting to wear out

opinion: it's hard for me to say this, as based cotton candy is my favorite gen 6 mon, but i firmly believe it will get nothing less than banned.

Derp scorpion-bat: this thing. THIS THING. Gligar has so much going for it this gen, that it's insane. SD, Evio, SubSD, SD+Tailwind (gimmicky, but fun cuz it beats carvanha xD), Scarf, and idk even maybe rock polish. It has an amazing offensive and defensive typing, a great defense stat, a God-sent speed stat, and a usable atk stat. This thing literally has so much to do in LC, I'mma split my rant into two parts, offensive and defensive

offensive scorpion-bat- Gligar has an extreme offensive prescence in LC. Let's start off with it's most used set (from my experience) SubSD. I find this set as the most threatening but also most easily revenged set. although, there are little things that revenge it easily. Most of the things i try revenging this with are Eviolite misdreavus w/ icy wind, murkrow w/ icy wind, anything fast in LC that can possibly learn icy wind, elekid, and scarfed amaura. even then, it has a lack of hard counters as +2 acrobatics OHKO's/2HKOs all of these mons, so they can't switch in on it. It's no surprise this is at 40% usage in the tier, as it's way too good. SD tailwind is probably my favorite gligar set, as it's able to beat carvanha w/ right predictions, and it can team support if it's about to die, but it's just for fun. The offensive SD set just rules this metagame, and it's very easy to set up as well

defensive scorpion-bat- the much more manageable set of Gligar, as it doesn't have the terrifying offensive prescence i previously stated. However, it does have access to a giant support movepool with amazing speed for all the bulk it has. Roost, defog, Stel Roks, Tailwind, all backed up by a base 105 defense, and u-turn helps it pick up momentum as a pivot.

opinion: Gligar shoud be banned as well. it is centralizing the metagame way too much, has way too much raw offensive power with too much speed and nbulk to reliably stop it (also speed ties)

 

[Wobbyble]

Swirlix​

In general, Swirlix has 3 offensive Unburden sets. Belly Drum, Calm Mind, and Cotton Guard + Calm Mind. All three having extremely high sweeping capabilities, each one offering their own contribution of strength and weaknesses. For example, Cotton Guard renders you nearly immune to priority, but takes a while to set up, while Belly Drum can be risky to set up at time, but offers the strongest immediate offensive power.
There is an extremely minimal amount of things that can OHKO Swirlix from full health without any boosts, and is pretty much limited to Murkrow's LO Brave Bird (certain EV spreads can tank this), Steel stabs from Pawniard and Magnemite, and poison stabs that Grimer and Croagunk. This essentially means that there is almost no way to stop Swirlix from getting at least one boost off, making it a rather reliable sweeper, as it will typically trade 1 for 1 or better, the worst case scenario being crippling an enemy mon by leaving it near death.

long ass shit you don't really need to read

Belly Drum on Swirlix is a completely unique set up move thanks to its ability, Unburden. In one turn, it can boost itself to a typical 24 speed or higher, which is faster than a large number of popular Scarfed mons, and then return to full health thanks to Berry Juice. Thanks to how Belly Drum halves your health, there's no counterplay of "not activating Berry Juice", because Swirlix can activate it itself. Once it reaches +6 there is a profound lack of things that can survive any of its moves without an ability like Sturdy. The typical BD Swirlix carries from a pool of 6 moves. Belly Drum, Play Rough, Return, Thief, Protect, and Flamethrower. Return gives Swirlix a strong secondary move to hit things like Grimer and Foongus with, while Thief allows you to beat Tirtouga, Foongus, cripple Mag, heal off others' Berry Juices, etc and Protect keeps Fake Out from hurting Swirlix. Flamethrower hits Ferroseed, that's about it.
Things that can revenge/check Belly Drum include Meditite, Fletchling, Bunnelby, Tirtouga, Slowpoke, Gligar, Foongus, Magnemite, Grimer, Sashbra, Prankster users, Unaware users, and a few other mons that aren't terribly viable. Grimer and Magnemite are the only ones listed here that will almost always win against a full HP boosted Swirlix. Grimer is likely to win even with SR up, but still has a chance to be OHKO'd by Return. Magnemite needs Sturdy intact to even hope to survive anything. Slowpoke can live a move sometimes (roughly 35% of the time), paralyze it, and then most likely die. Meditite can hurt hard with Bullet Punch, but will only win if Swirlix doesn't have Protect. Fletchling and Bunnelby both fail to OHKO with their strongest priority moves. Foongus and Tirtouga can both lose to Thief sets, while Foongus needs to be full health to survive Return. Gligar cannot OHKO with anything. Wooper is sort of meh outside of checking Swirlix, but reliable (also a dead giveaway to not attempt a Swirlix sweep). Krow can paralyze/haze and then most likely die. Cottonee can Encore but can be punished heavily for incorrect prediction. So as you can see, options are very limited. Almost all of the checks are situational, or lose to one of Belly Drum Swirlix's many moves. Like I said before, BD Swirlix will at WORST typically trade 1 for 1 or severely cripple an enemy mon. So JUST for Belly Drum, there's already a lack of reliable counters to this ONE set. I'm not including things like Aron, Shieldon, and Woobat because they're simply not viable.

Calm Mind
I honestly feel like this is the weakest of all the sets. It loses to things like ParaFlinch slowpoke, possibly Porygon, Pawniard, LO Meditite, and still gets checked by many of the mons listed for the Belly Drum set. Instead of Boosting attack, Swirlix boosts its special attack and utilizes very strong coverage from Dazzling Gleam, Surf, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and Psychic as coverage. This set's largest benefit in my opinion, is being able to still deal great damage without actually boosting, for example, Foongus, Grimer, and Cottonee switch ins can be predicted and hit hard with coverage before switching out for late game sweeping. It's other benefit is being able to boost and switch out if sweeping conditions become unfavorable while retaining Berry Juice, a trait shared by the Cotton Guard set. However, due to this sets inability to reach an offensive status of being able to 1HKO or do at least 80% to the whole metagame in one turn while still being hit hard by many moves such as priority or Pawniard's Iron Head (+1 Flamethrower cannot OHKO good EV spreads), this set is the smallest contributor to the brokenness of Swirlix.

Cotton Guard + Calm Mind
Okay this is the set that pushes Swirlix over the edge. This set has great coverage only resisted by like Ponyta and Growlith basically with Draining Kiss/Flamethrower. Along with this it can boost its defenses to immense numbers WHILE getting a large amount of health back from Berry Juice and Draining Kiss. This makes CG CM Swirlix's effective health pool ridiculously high. It can boost its defense to 35 in one turn, then 56 the next, making it able to set up even on things like unboosted Gligar. Calm Mind makes sure that Swirlix's special side is covered for defenses, as well as boosting Draining Kiss's damaging power and obviously its healing power at the same time. So basically in 2-3 turns, you can boost your defense and sdef to extremely high numbers, and end up near full health while still maintaining a great effective health through Draining Kiss. Paralysis is unreliable in dealing with this, as all paralysis abusers don't hit Swirlix hard enough to beat Swirlix with a few Calm Minds under its belt without crits. Prankster can still win easily against this set, either Encoring things or being Hazing. There are a profound lack of viable phasers in the meta that is basically limited to Vullaby. There is almost NOTHING that is guaranteed to beat this set in a 1 vs 1 scenario except for maybe like Wooper, while Koffing and Grimer do all right against it. I've tested both of the aforementioned Poison types and both are extremely underwhelming, and both have superior choices when not worrying about Swirlix. Hazekrow however, deals with this set exceptionally well.
Again, to reiterate, this set can set up on almost everything, and is stopped by almost nothing aside from Clear Smog, Haze, and Wooper. The majority of the time that I have used this set and lost with it was due to critical hits. Due to the nature of this set, it takes a lot of hits during the process of setting up boosts and tanking hits while healing back with Draining Kiss, leaving it open to get critted a lot. This is one of the sets major flaws, as was with Calm Mind Bronzor's last generation. Despite this flaw, it doesn't get critted at crucial moments too often, and is probably the most reliable Unburden Swirlix set out there, being able to set up at anytime, and having the least amount of counters/checks. It's not something that can easily 6-0 someone, but after 2-3 mons on the enemy team go down or low, this set can start to shine. This set beats many of Calm Mind and Belly Drum's checks, like Magnemite, Pawniard, Foongus occasionally, Porygon, Slowpoke, etc. Overall there is no set way to actually counter beat this set aside from Haze/Clear Smog. Whirldwind and Roar cannot even be relied upon, since if Swirlix is the last mon then it fails (I've won a game through abusing this).

Conclusion for Swirlix
In short, between all three of Swirlix's sets, it has NO set counters between all three of its sets aside from Wooper. HazeKrow can stop all three from sweeping, often at the expense of its own life. Each of the three sets has a very limited amount of counters as well as a limited number of checks, the Calm Mind set having the most due to it not being able to activate Berry Juice by itself and still being OHKO by many physical moves. It's extremely difficult to plan ahead on how to deal with Swirlix due to its 3 extremely viable sets. I can keep Magnemite's sturdy, but what if it carries Calm Mind? I can Clear Smog with Foongus, but I have to be 100% sure I keep rocks off the field! My Meditite can revenge it if its the CM set or BD without Protect, but I'll lose if its neither of those. My Grimer should be able to deal with any Swirlix set, but I'll have to keep it at exactly 100% health to make sure I can beat Belly Drum. I can use Encore to keep Swirlix from setting up, but if they outpredict me one time, I lose! There's almost no way to efficiently prepare for Swirlix due to its 3 sets, and when it actually comes out, you have to either sacrifice your current mon, or swap to another. You then have to predict, without knowing what set it is, and send out the appropriate check/counter. Slowpoke? Nope it's CG, and it just some free boosts. Foongus... Well do you have both Clear Smog and Sludge Bomb? Sludge Bomb deals with BD, but not CM. As you can see, there's almost no "best way", or even a "good way" to deal with Swirlix aside from guesswork and prediction, Wooper, or HazeKrow. In my opinion HazeKrow is the safest way to deal with Swirlix, being able to remove any boosts, paralyze it, and then die or potentially kill Swirlix. It's not even a way to deal with it that is in your favor, but it's a SAFE way, and that's the BEST you can do against Swirlix without using shit unviable mons like Shieldon and Wooper. Due to the extremely low amount of ways to deal with Swirlix, it's high sweeping potential, and its unpredictableness, I'm in favor of a Swirlix ban.

Gligar​

Gligar boasts the second highest BST in the LC metagame only short by 5 of Misdreavus. It has high attack, speed, AND defensive stats. It does everything well except specs set basically. It can run a pivot set, utility, boosting, baton pass, itemless, sweeper baton pass hybrid, etc. It probably has over 10 viable sets if I could be bothered to list them all. It has excellent coverage between Acrobatics, Earthquake, U Turn, Knock Off, and Aqua Tail (Stone Edge anyone?...) Thanks to its high stats and amazing movepool of both offense and utility, there is essentially no reason to NOT run Gligar on your team. Offensive Gligar can 2HKO the entire meta except for Slowpoke, Porygon, Spritzee, Lickitung, and itself basically. Defensive Gligar can live +6 Play Rough from Swirlix (but can't OHKO back @_@). Baton Pass Gligar can run negative speed and easily get a Swords Dance to whoever it wishes.
Offensive
With a Swords Dance under its belt, Gligar can now 2HKO basically the whole tier. While also outspeeding the majority of it. Even before its boost, nothing that can outspeed and OHKO Gligar can switch in safely.
Defensive
Man I'm tired of writing this stuff. Basically Gligar either walls you like fuck or murders at least one member of your team while pivoting or swords dancing. And there's almost nothing you can do about it. I'll write up more shit later if i feel like it. conclusion ban gligar pls lol

 

[Fizz Candy]

Is Gligar broken? Yes.

Gligar is used 40% of the time, and for good reason. It has little to no switch ins, and Gligar is the centralizing force on many different teams. But my argument as to why Gligar needs to be banned is the versatility and unpredictability of it's movesets. Until Gligar has used all four of its moves or you have Knocked Off its item, you aren't really going to be able to tell what it is doing for your opponent. Between setting up a Sub and Swords Dancing, Rock Polishing, Baton Passing those stats, going for an all out offensive or the rare Toxic Stall, Gligar is an unpredictable menace, forcing you to have to rely on amazingly accurate prediction skills or pure luck.

Is Gligar making LC not fun? Yes.

Due to Gligar's versatility, players have to prep their team to handle a Gligar, taking up the space that could be used for much needed hazard support, Defog/Rapid Spin support or a Hazer. Having to build a team around handling Gligar takes the fun out of the creativity of teambuilding, and usually, due to Gligar being a pretty good Gligar counter, people run Gligar as well, resulting in the 40% usage rate I mentioned earlier.

Are these reasons deferring people from playing LC? I think so.

I've had friends who have gone back to playing OU or transitioned to UU or NU due to Gligar. When you are trying to learn the mechanics of the tier and still in the "n00b" state, Gligars sweeping your team don't really help with a better understanding of Little Cup.

Is Swirlix broken? Yes.

Swirlix still possesses the versatility of Gligar, but with its own ups and downs. The only downside to Swirlix is the fact that its only viable item is Berry Juice. The upsides are everything else. Even if you Knock Off the Berry Juice, Swirlix becomes a blisteringly fast speed demon. Pair that with Cotton Guard, Belly Drum, Calm Mind, Light Screen, Play Rough, Draining Kiss, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Return, etc, and Swirlix becomes the most broken Pokemon in the tier. After one Cotton Guard and a couple Calm Minds, the only thing that can stop it is a critical hit with Bullet Punch. Plus, even if you Bullet Punch it, Swirlix can bring itself back to full health by OHKOing you with Draining Kiss.

Is Swirlix making LC not fun? Yes.

So you have to make a team that can handle Gligar... that's not toooo bad... Wait, what? I have to run a check (not a counter, a check) for Swirlix? Crap. Swirlix has taken over this metagame with its buddy Gligar, and it is probably more unpredictable than the purple bat-scorpion. There are various different checks to Swirlix, but depending on the cotton ball's moveset, you can't be sure that you can handle it. Tentacool walls it pretty well, but if Swirlix has Thunderbolt, you are dead in the water. Bronzor can usually handle it relatively well also, but a quick Flamethrower from a +2 Swirlix will finish you off quickly. If this thing stays, pray that your opponent isn't using one.

Are these reasons deferring people from playing LC? Yes, Yes, 1 million times YES!

Swirlix makes the metagame not fun. Simple as that. Having to lose three Pokemon to take out one is ridiculous and, unless you can OHKO on the first turn, you are most likely going to lose. Little Cup is a really cool metagame that a lot of people try out for "lolz" and then consistently come back, but Swirlix is causing new players, and regulars alike, to slowly drift away.

This is my first post on the LC forums, so be nice guys :P

 

[Anthiese]

MY TURN

imma do it my way tho

IS SWIRLIX BROKEN: yes.

IS GLIGAR BROKEN: yes.

WHY: Swirlix uses boosting sets along with Berry Juice to keep it healthy, while Gligar's 19 Spe + plethora of moves gives it a powerful amount pressure to apply

METAGAME FUN STILL?: LC will always be fun to me but meh swirlix go die. gligar isnt that bad imo. I always have a way to kill that fucker but i like using my own to net an acro ko

tidbit: i dont feel like saying anymore on the matter since everyone is like: WALLS OF TEXT and i dont really have anything new to add... except that 20Spe Voltorb realest Gligar check next to Mixkrow/Missy with Icy Wind

imma miss you Gligar
.cry

fucking DIE off Swirlix

 

[Heysup]

I personally feel both usage and viability are necessary to argue a reason for banning if you feel differently go ahead, but for me the 2% chance (40% chance of Gligar * 4% chance Baton Pass or Rock Polish) of running into Gligar who run Baton Pass or Rock Polish on the standard ladder isn't nearly common enough for me to feel it is a real valid reason for it to banned, There are plenty of other reasons for it to be banned though but listing these would just be redundant.

I know people already attacked this point, but I just want to sort of be less harsh. Your reasoning makes perfect sense when constructing a team for laddering purposes. If you ignore uncommon threats and succeed otherwise, you will have a high % of battles where you have the advantage. However, especially for a metagame like LC it should not be completely catered to a "Best of infinite" like the ladder, but more catered to each individual matches. Besides ladder usage =/= viability, hopefully this also explains it a bit better.

 

[ryan]

@ Fake Out,

Fake Out is hardly a reliable answer to Swirlix. Meditite is fine to list, but the other three are really flawed. Meowth and Aipom simply aren't very good in the current metagame, and Mienfoo only does 22-27% to Belly Drum Swirlix, which is the easiest to revenge. And don't forget that all 4 of these just flat out lose to Cotton Guard Swirlix, or Protect (on Belly Drum), although Protect isn't that common.

Sorry, too busy to read everything, but this argument is bad. How can you say "Meowth and Aipom simply aren't very good in the current metagame" when they keep one of the current suspects in check? This is exactly my point. If no one is making an effort to adapt around the threats in the metagame, then obviously something is going to seem broken.

In my personal experience, I've had less and less trouble with Swirlix as time has progressed. I've adjusted my teams as necessary to handle it better over time, and my experiences laddering during the suspect test showed me the same thing. I laddered with Belly Drum Swirlix, and it didn't even sweep in half my wins. Most of my wins were due to my bulky offensive core that alone handled a lot of the metagame. Even when I did set up, I got fucked over once by a Cottonee, a couple times by Meowth, a couple times by Mienfoo coming in and hitting me with Fake Out after I took damage while setting up. One time I got fucked over by my own Stealth Rock when my opponent pivoted in twice into Stealth Rock until it got down to 50% and Berry Juice recovered it. Simply keeping up offensive pressure in many games prevented me from setting up. These are ways of handling Swirlix, and you can't just dismiss them as bad when they do the job.

 

[Rowan]

I've not read the thread yet, but I've wrote my initial thoughts down and will probably respond to issues raised by others in the thread later.

Swirlix is quite clearly broken in my opinion. It’s ability to run 3 very viable late-game sweeper sets, each of them being able to have slightly different variations, makes it almost impossible to prepare for if its carrying the wrong move. To show this here’s a list of checks & ‘counters’ and the ways that Swirlix can get round them:

1) Meditite. With Fake Out and Bullet Punch, many teams use this to check Swirlix. However, you always lose to Cotton Guard unless crit. If Belly Drum carries Protect then you also lose.

2) Bulky Poison types (Grimer, Koffing, Foongus). These can all survive a +6 Return at full health, but they HAVE to be at full health. Foongus is OHKOed after Stealth Rock damage, and the other two have no reliable recovery which means you can’t switch them in until Swirlix is out. This makes it very easy to get round them with BD Swirlix has you can just switch it in, as if you are going to set up, and instead just return, switch out, and set up later. Swirlix KOs Grimer after 2 SR switch-ins, so you’re literally limited to switching in once. Is that really worth it just for checking Swirlix? Pyschic, whilst rare, also has a chance to KO both Koffing and Grimer at +1

3) Magnemite. Probably the best check, but again has to be at full health. After Stealth Rock it will just lose. Cannot always OHKO a full health Swirlix at +1 SpDef.

4) Fire types (Growlithe, Larvesta, Ponyta, Vulpix). All die to +1 Surf except Vulpix. Belly Drum Return KOs with SR and without SR, still does so much to Growlithe and Larvesta that they’ll have to be at full-health. Larv and Pony can flame body but do you really want to rely on a 30% chance to beat it.

5) Ferroseed. Belly Drum can run Flamethrower, which means you have to keep it at full health pretty much. +1 Flamethrower KOs.

6) Bulky shit (lickitung, munchlax, porygon, slowpoke, hippopotas). All can survive a hit from BD. Porygon and Slowpoke and Thunder Wave, but Swirlix often has Sub or Aromatherapy. Lickitung and Munchlax can only hope to Para with Body Slam. Munchlax can whirlwind I guess but BD OHKOs it, so only works with CM and CGCM. Hippo can whirlwind, but still has a small chance to be OHKOed by +6 Play Rough even if it’s max HP / max Def.

7) Sturdy (Tirtouga and Dwebble). Rocks. BD gets round these with Thief. Cotton Guard should win anyway.

Basically none of these Pokemon can check every variant of Swirlix. This means every team should be carrying at least 2 checks to it, because you’ll never know what set it is. Even then, often you’ll often have to keep your check at full health. This means you can’t use your Ferroseed to counter Tirtouga because that means Swirlix can beat it. Or you can’t use your Grimer to switch into Knock Off users, because you have to keep it at full health for Swirlix. You can’t risk switching Magnemite in, incase it loses its sturdy. Swirlix forces the opposing team to play so conservatively, it’s ridiculous. You can be carrying 2 decent checks and still lose if the Swirlix user plays moderately well, or you just come across the wrong set. Besides Stealth Rock support (not always necessary though), Swirlix barely needs any support to just sweep. As long as it can set-up at an opportune moment, it’s gg. This thing is the most ridiculously OP set-up sweeper I’ve seen in any tier ever. Ban it.




Gligar, I’m seeing many people want banned because it’s everywhere and so over-centralising but claim it’s not broken. However, I believe there’s 1 set that is quite clearly broken:

Gligar @ Berry Juice
Ability: Hyper Cutter
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- Knock Off / Substitute

Swords Dance set. Basically this is so easy to sweep with, it’s unreal. Personally I think Knock Off is the thing that tips it over the edge, as all the bulky Pokemon that can ‘counter’ it can’t without their precious Eviolites.

Calcs with evioliteless ‘counters’

+2 236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Slowpoke: 24-28 (85.7 - 100%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Koffing: 19-24 (82.6 - 104.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Porygon: 24-28 (92.3 - 107.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 236 Atk Gligar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Archen: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO – this will put Archen into defeatist range, meaning it can’t KO with HP ice. Gligar just heals back to full health with Berry Juice and KOs.

So clearly with these calcs, it’s not hard to get past it’s best checks. Shellos is the only counter I can actually think of to the Knock Off set. Also, I know Stealth Rock can’t always guaranteed to be up, but after taking a Knock Off, Koffing has no way of being at full health, and Slowpoke isn’t hard to keep it switching in, so that it won’t be at full health.

I’ve also seen a lot of arguments for Gligar not being broken because so many faster scarfers can revenge it like Chinchou, Snover, Amaura, Elekid (who doesn’t need a scarf), Misdreavus, Shellder, and Murkrow. However if you are using the Knock Off set and manage to take down its counter then you have to solely rely on this check. This means that Gligar literally has no safe switch-in at all. It can switch in loads throughout the game, without setting up and just hit hard with EQ and Acro. Berry Juice Gligar has a surprising amount of longetivity to do this, and I think this longetivy is a contributing factor to it being broken - it isn't just a one-shot thing like Swirlix, it can consistenltly come in and wreak havoc on the opposing team. Basically this is broken.

Substitute is also really good if you don’t want to run Knock Off, and it’s not hard to give Gligar some Knock Off support from Timburr or Mienfoo or something. If you manage to keep a Sub up, then the faster scarfers can’t even beat it.

Not only is Swords Dance really good, Gligar has a variety of other sets, which are often quite hard to predict. It’s so easy to fit on any team, whether as an offensive Stealth Rock / Defogger, a bulky physical wall or a fast Taunt user. It’s so centralised, people are using Gligar to counter Gligar, just look at the SPL replays to see how many Gligar vs. Gligar speed ties occurred to decide matches, similarly to how Sneasel vs. Sneasel ties were common when that was allowed. I’m not sure if centralisation is grounds for it being banned but it’s certainly discouraging a few people from playing LC.

 

[chimp]

Sorry, too busy to read everything, but this argument is bad. How can you say "Meowth and Aipom simply aren't very good in the current metagame" when they keep one of the current suspects in check? This is exactly my point. If no one is making an effort to adapt around the threats in the metagame, then obviously something is going to seem broken.

In my personal experience, I've had less and less trouble with Swirlix as time has progressed. I've adjusted my teams as necessary to handle it better over time, and my experiences laddering during the suspect test showed me the same thing. I laddered with Belly Drum Swirlix, and it didn't even sweep in half my wins. Most of my wins were due to my bulky offensive core that alone handled a lot of the metagame. Even when I did set up, I got fucked over once by a Cottonee, a couple times by Meowth, a couple times by Mienfoo coming in and hitting me with Fake Out after I took damage while setting up. One time I got fucked over by my own Stealth Rock when my opponent pivoted in twice into Stealth Rock until it got down to 50% and Berry Juice recovered it. Simply keeping up offensive pressure in many games prevented me from setting up. These are ways of handling Swirlix, and you can't just dismiss them as bad when they do the job.

Forgive me if I got this wrong but, Fake-Out users only check Belly Drum Swirl, and if it's not Belly Drum then Meowth or Aipom can't really do much. Also, for Fake Out to work you'd have to have the mon in on the same turn as it's setting up, or else you have to keep saccing another mon to re-use Fake Out.

 

[Expulso]

Sorry, too busy to read everything, but this argument is bad. How can you say "Meowth and Aipom simply aren't very good in the current metagame" when they keep one of the current suspects in check? This is exactly my point. If no one is making an effort to adapt around the threats in the metagame, then obviously something is going to seem broken.

In my personal experience, I've had less and less trouble with Swirlix as time has progressed. I've adjusted my teams as necessary to handle it better over time, and my experiences laddering during the suspect test showed me the same thing. I laddered with Belly Drum Swirlix, and it didn't even sweep in half my wins. Most of my wins were due to my bulky offensive core that alone handled a lot of the metagame. Even when I did set up, I got fucked over once by a Cottonee, a couple times by Meowth, a couple times by Mienfoo coming in and hitting me with Fake Out after I took damage while setting up. One time I got fucked over by my own Stealth Rock when my opponent pivoted in twice into Stealth Rock until it got down to 50% and Berry Juice recovered it. Simply keeping up offensive pressure in many games prevented me from setting up. These are ways of handling Swirlix, and you can't just dismiss them as bad when they do the job.

Well, Fake Out, as DTC said, loses to the 8.5% of Swirlixes with Protect, as well as the 24% with Cotton Guard. Also, it isn't really a reliable "check" if it requires you losing 2 or more other Pokemon to get the job done; Meditite, however, works very well against variants lacking Cotton Guard and/or Protect.

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 8-9 (36.3 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If its Berry Juice has already been activated, then you have to lose 2 Pokemon to take it out with Aipom. If it hasn't used its Berry Juice yet, you must lose 4.

236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 5-6 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- 2.2% chance to 4HKO

If Swirlix has already used its Berry Juice, you have to lose 4 Pokemon to KO it with Mienfoo; if not, you lose.
252 Atk Normal Gem Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO

If Swirlix has already drank its Berry Juice, you have to lose 2 before defeating it with Meowth; if not, you must lose 4.

196+ Atk (Eviolite) Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 6-8 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Eviolite Meditite has an extremely miniscule chance to KO BD Swirlix with Fake Out / Bullet Punch.

196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

LO Meditite is the only one that really does this effectively.

 

[Rowan]

Okay, I've read more of this thread now, kinda stopped after the first page cos everyone is saying similar things. For the people who believe that Gligar is not broken, just centralising I encourage you to read my previous post on why I believe it's broken, along with Heysup's post on page 1 which illustrates how Agility or Baton Pass can be used in the final slot which allows you to bypass even more counters. I'm a huge advocate of Baton Pass gligar, because it's so easy to get a +2 Pawniard or Scraggy as the opponent switches in Archen or Slowpoke. This just adds to the brokenness I was talking about in my post - if it does come across something that can wall it, then this set gives another option to completely destroy the opposing team. (also adds to Ashley11's, unpredictability argument).

Anyway, I'd like to argue with Treecko a bit, since he is the most anti-ban Swirlix advocate and he could have potential to sway my opinion.
Is there any specific ways that you teambuild differently to prepare for Swirlix? It's such a hard Pokemon to counter that you can run 2 dedicated counters and still be fucked over. For example I can run a Tentacool + Ferroseed defensive core who actually have really good synergy with each other, and Ferroseed can counter the Belly Drum set and Tentacool can fuck with any Cotton Guard variants. However, what happens when I come across a Calm Mind/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt set. I'll lose despite having 2 Swirlix counters, meaning I have to run 3 Pokemon on my team to beat it. In my opinion that is a bit ridiculous. Also, to even beat the Belly Drum set, I'm forced to keep my Ferroseed healthy throughout the match. As I stated in my original post, this means it can't be used to counter Tirtouga (+2 EQ and a +6 Play Rough can take Ferroseed out). It's all well and good saying keeping offensive pressure can prevent it setting up, but every team (even offensive teams) will have at least 1 Pokemon (usually 2-3) that Swirlix can use as set up bait. Even Berry Juice Gligar can be used as bait, as it survives Acro at full health, heal up and set up from there, and we all know how common that is.

Priority is all well and good but even that isn't strong enough, so you'll need at least a couple of priority users. Expulso illustrates above that you'll need 2 Pokemon to die to stop a 50% Swirlix with Fake Out. Carvanha only does over 50% 1/16th of the time with Life Orb Aqua Jet, so again you're losing 2 Pokemon including Carvanha. Bunnelby and Corphish will need a Life Orb or Choice Band to do more than 50% to Swirlix. Swirlix resists Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave, so that's not much help. So with all this in mind, every team should be dedicating at least 2, or more ways to deal with Swirlix and even then, with the right moveset Swirlix and possibly a small bit of support, Swirlix can get round them.

e: Just did my 1000th post without even realising oops. Shoutouts to the people of #littlecup or the Little Cup PS room (except the dumb users), and anyone else I know, you probably know who you are.

 

[Antar]

Is there any specific ways that you teambuild differently to prepare for Swirlix? It's such a hard Pokemon to counter that you can run 2 dedicated counters and still be fucked over.

I'd like to hear Treecko's answer as well, but let me just give my own, since the crappy team I used to get reqs (woohoo lowest qualifying GXE!) never had a particular problem with Swirlix:

Foongus, Honedge, Sticky Web

As others have commented, Foongus at full health survives any move from Belly Drum Swirlix. It can then either OHKO with Sludge Bomb or Spore it and then take it out at its convenience.

But mainly, I assume that my opponent is running the Calm Mind set, so when Swirlix comes in, I immediately switch into my Honedge, who can take a +0 Flamethrower (it actually seems to always survive a +1 Flamethrower, though based on calcs I have performed no idea how), outspeeds after Sticky Web, and OHKOs with Iron Head before Berry Juice has even had the chance to activate.

With these two Pokemon, I was able to deal with about 95% of Swirlix that came my way.

(and no one runs Defog any more, so Sticky Web is ridiculously easy to set up and keep up)

The best part of my Foongus+Honedge combo is that both are Pokemon that are good to have on my team *anyway.* Now that Tangela is gone, Foongus is the premiere Sleep-inducer, and Honedge is a 100% counter for Meditite. So bottom line--I'm not going out of my way to counter the 'Swirl at all.

Just did my 1000th post without even realising oops

Congrats!