It is great neutral coverage in tandem with other moves. I still fail to see how equipping your Pokemon with a way to beat Salamence is "omg centrilization". When, y'know, it is top OU threat. Like I said, every single Pokemon on your team will not be running an Ice move. If your team is like that you need to sign up for tutoring.
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Oh right, because Azelf, Dusknoir, Metagross, and Jirachi don't use Ice Punch on some of their most common sets (Well, Azelf's a lead now, so no one uses physical scarf). Breloom doesn't use Stone-Edge ever, and Heatran doesn't have Dragon Pulse. Obviously I was wrong when I saw either HP Ice or Blizzard on at least one of Rotom-A's sets. Obviously, Blissey never runs Ice Beam despite being one of the more common moves on Bliss because the pink blob is set up bait for mence otherwise.
But again, I digress. Ice is a good attacking move, but that doesn't mean it has to be an option on 90% of all OU pokemon just because Mence exists.
Thanks for noticing that I wasn't actually being serious. But because you insisted that I was a moron, I'm going to inform you that you're wrong, and another one of the four has the capacity to knock out a Ho-oh at 50%. Have fun figuring it out.
EDIT: I regret following up on that Ho-oh point. If I knew that you all were just going to mindlessly argue semantics over something that was brought up sarcastically, then I would've just been blunt in saying that residual damage cannot be relied upon as an argument for tiering.
^now you are over-simplifying. Residual damage doesn't matter in tiering? That's absurd. Residual damage has a huge effect on the game, upon which many pokemon devise their strategies and many live or die by.
Why is Abamasnow (and froslass for that matter, even independent of Abo) BL? Heck, why is D-S Uber? Why is Charizard NU? Why is the whole first turn based on a fight to get SR/Spikes up (in OU, UU AND Ubers)? Residual damage mattes a lot in battle, and mence being screwed by it is very relevant to its tiering. It's absurd to say otherwise.
Why is Abamasnow (and froslass for that matter, even independent of Abo) BL? Heck, why is D-S Uber? Why is Charizard NU? Why is the whole first turn based on a fight to get SR/Spikes up (in OU, UU AND Ubers)? Residual damage mattes a lot in battle, and mence being screwed by it is very relevant to its tiering. It's absurd to say otherwise.
You theorymon again. You do realise Ho-oh has 106/90 physical Defenses, which are better than Swamperts, and this isn't considering in the fact that Ho-oh can effectively double that by burning you. Please play some Ubers make you make this remark. In fact, please play the metagame before you theorymon all this crazy talk.
But I'm not counting Roost because no-one seems to have trouble with Mence with Roost. The two sets everyone are bickering over in this thread are New MixMence and Offensive DD, none of which run Roost. The other ones aren't that threatening to be honest, Classic MixMence isn't that good, and bulky Mence is walled quite easily.
Firstly, centralisation is not a measure of how broken a Pokemon is, otherwise we would have booted Scizor to Ubers ages ago. Secondly, like everyone else has mentioned already, Ice, Rock and Dragon are all very good attacking types with good coverage. You can also conversely say "Well Mence is weak to so many common attacking types, so therefore it can't find space to Roost". Infernape can use Slack Off too, but its lack of bulk hinders it. Same applies to Mence. It can't Roost (As easily as it would like) because it's weak to common attacking moves in the metagame.
You'd be sure it'll still be there if Mence happens to get banned. Dragonite still exists (Who can actually take Ice Beams fired from Blissey), Flygon still exists. Ice moves being used have next to nothing to do with hitting Mence. Ice Beam is everywhere in UU as well. Altaria is pretty much the only usable Dragon. Again, please play the game before making your rather bold and uneducated remarks.
You talking about Rapidash?? Yes, CB boosted Flare Blitz after a Flash Fire boost does OHKO after SR, but when Ho-oh comes in, who the hell is going to use Sacred Fire blindly after taking SR damage?? I'd Roost if I were you. What's Rapidash going to do now?? Anyway, the fact that you brought up Ho-oh is just silly to begin with. She plays very differently to Salamence and is in general about 20 times harder to take down, even with the residual damage. Please stop applying arguments to Salamence to Ho-oh, because you're comparing an apple to a watermelon (Hope you know which one the apple is and which one is the watermelon).
I think it's important to note that aside from being common attacking moves in general, Ice and Rock are coverage moves that are very frequently used alongside the moves Mence resists.
Grass: Often paired with Fire or Ice.
Ground: Works great with Rock or Ice moves.
Fighting: Again, fighting/rock or fighting/ice has great coverage.
Water: Water/Ice has always been staple, if for no other reason than the fact that every water type gets it and it is a 95 BP special move coming off of what is typically their highest stat.
Fire: Ice or Grass work well here, and obviously Fire/Dragon has perfect coverage minus Heatran.
Let's look at OU pokemon who are commonly seen running these combinations:
-Heatran: Doesn't really need HP Ice, given that both Dragon Pulse and Fire blast 2HKO Mence after rocks on scarf sets, and slower sets can only revenge on locked Outrage.
-Tyrantiar: STAB moves.
-Swampert: Ground/Ice combo or Water/Ice combo.
-Infernape: Fighting/Rock combo or Fire/Ice, Grass/Ice combo.
-Starmie: Water/Ice and the typical Ice/Electric combo.
-Machamp: Fighting/Ice or fighting/rock.
-Breloom: Fighting/Rock combo.
-Vaporeon: Water/Ice
-Magnezone: Electric/Ice
-Suicune: Water/Ice
-Celebi: I'm only listing this to note that HP Ice isn't even listed in the detailed statistics. If Mence were really that big of a deal, we could expect better than this.
-Jolteon: Ice/Electric combo.
-Flygon/Dragonite/Kingdra/Aerodactyl: STAB moves. Flygon does ocassionaly run Stone Edge so it doesn't have to lock itself into Outrage, and it also gives it Rock/Ground combo.
-Empoleon: Ice/Water combo.
-Zapdos: Electric/Ice combo.
I'll go ahead and stop here since you get the point. 17 of the top 34 pokemon have something to gain from using moves Mence is weak to, though not solely because of its presence. Basically, even if you don't try to prepare for Mence (which would be foolish), odds are you will end up with SE attacks anyway, much like several other threats.
Grass: Often paired with Fire or Ice.
Ground: Works great with Rock or Ice moves.
Fighting: Again, fighting/rock or fighting/ice has great coverage.
Water: Water/Ice has always been staple, if for no other reason than the fact that every water type gets it and it is a 95 BP special move coming off of what is typically their highest stat.
Fire: Ice or Grass work well here, and obviously Fire/Dragon has perfect coverage minus Heatran.
Let's look at OU pokemon who are commonly seen running these combinations:
-Heatran: Doesn't really need HP Ice, given that both Dragon Pulse and Fire blast 2HKO Mence after rocks on scarf sets, and slower sets can only revenge on locked Outrage.
-Tyrantiar: STAB moves.
-Swampert: Ground/Ice combo or Water/Ice combo.
-Infernape: Fighting/Rock combo or Fire/Ice, Grass/Ice combo.
-Starmie: Water/Ice and the typical Ice/Electric combo.
-Machamp: Fighting/Ice or fighting/rock.
-Breloom: Fighting/Rock combo.
-Vaporeon: Water/Ice
-Magnezone: Electric/Ice
-Suicune: Water/Ice
-Celebi: I'm only listing this to note that HP Ice isn't even listed in the detailed statistics. If Mence were really that big of a deal, we could expect better than this.
-Jolteon: Ice/Electric combo.
-Flygon/Dragonite/Kingdra/Aerodactyl: STAB moves. Flygon does ocassionaly run Stone Edge so it doesn't have to lock itself into Outrage, and it also gives it Rock/Ground combo.
-Empoleon: Ice/Water combo.
-Zapdos: Electric/Ice combo.
I'll go ahead and stop here since you get the point. 17 of the top 34 pokemon have something to gain from using moves Mence is weak to, though not solely because of its presence. Basically, even if you don't try to prepare for Mence (which would be foolish), odds are you will end up with SE attacks anyway, much like several other threats.
I don't understand your point. Are you saying because something might pack a super effective attack without thinking about Mence that it makes Mence less of an Uber? If so, you're not making this clear. I would agree, but to a very, very limited extent.
Ok, before you read the rest of my post, just know that i'm not the best battler in the world. I don't know everything there is too know, so take what i say with a grain of salt.
IMO, for a pokemon to be Uber, it should be that any competent player can slap that poke onto his\her team and win 80% of the time. If that is true with mence, then it should be voted uber, because it make the metagame unfair.
Just my two cents.
EDIT: OK, maybe 80% is a little high, but you get my point. And nice avatar.
IMO, for a pokemon to be Uber, it should be that any competent player can slap that poke onto his\her team and win 80% of the time. If that is true with mence, then it should be voted uber, because it make the metagame unfair.
Just my two cents.
EDIT: OK, maybe 80% is a little high, but you get my point. And nice avatar.
Even with most single ubers, you won't be able to "slap one on your team and win 80% of the time." An 80% win percentage in anything is pretty rare, and everything is going to have bad matchups here and there (hell, I managed to lose to a Regice with Rock Polish/Substitute/Swagger/Ice Beam combined with Toxic Spikes once).
He's just refuting the [ridiculous] claim that pokemon in OU run Ice/Rock attacks just to kill salamence. Rock/Ice are some of the best secondary (non-STAB) attacking types, and are extremely useful for filling holes in coverage.
If anything, the fact that pokemon who have no business dealing with Salamence (like breloom or Lucario) use Rock attacks (even if only sometimes) is a testament to Rock/Ice attack's value independent of dealing with Salamence.
Key word, "REFUTING," the other side's outrageousness. Please pay attention to the flow of the whole discussion, not individual posts.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
I was going to respond to shrang's post. But I realize people don't like being wrong. So I'm not going to prove to him how Ho-oh is completely physically dominated in OU because of his weaknesses and slow speed. I'm also not going to prove to him how there's no time to Roost when the enemy is carrying a Stone-Edge ready to knock it down a few notches. I'm also not going to prove to him why what I'm saying is not "uneducated", and how all of this is coming from actual facts. I'm not going to remind him that Ice attacks are in UU for a far different reason than dragons.
All I'm going to do, is tell you all to do your own goddamn research before you tell me how I'm wrong.
All I'm going to do, is tell you all to do your own goddamn research before you tell me how I'm wrong.
Yeah, my claims are ridiculous. But so is the claim that Mence isn't uber because of SR damage. I guess we both get to make stupid arguments once in a while.
Oh, yeah. Cause a smart player's gonna send in their Ho-Oh vs. a Pokemon that is readily able to take it out in one shot. Hell, you can send in Ho-Oh on LeadPert and get Surfed and still have HP to spare to Roost. Besides. The Ho-Oh spreads in Uber are catered to Uber. It will never be OU, but if it was moved down, its sets would then be catered to OU. shrang doesn't need to be proved wrong because Ho-Oh will never become OU.
By the way, who was it that cried Salamence can just Roost off Stealth Rock, Life Orb, Sandstorm? Since everything's ready to take out Salamence with that lolice move, Salamence has no time. He does it, and he's "dominated". So, yeah. By yuor logic, if Ho-Oh can't do it, Salamence sure as hell can't.
By the way, who was it that cried Salamence can just Roost off Stealth Rock, Life Orb, Sandstorm? Since everything's ready to take out Salamence with that lolice move, Salamence has no time. He does it, and he's "dominated". So, yeah. By yuor logic, if Ho-Oh can't do it, Salamence sure as hell can't.
That's like saying Charizard is viable in OU even though Stealth Rock is there.
And Guess what:
It's Not.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
For the last time, I'm not trying to prove that Ho-oh isn't uber. It most obviously is. Which is actually a part of my point. The point is, no matter how crippling SS/LO/SR damage is, if something is Uber, it's still fucking uber.
I never once claimed that he can roost off the damage. I've actually said that Mence shouldn't be roosting as the move slot is better used by a different move. In fact, I've said this twice.
Yeah. It's like saying Ho-oh is manageable in OU because Stealth Rock is there.
And guess what:
It's not.
You just used the last two posts to yell at shrang that Ho-Oh is "physically dominated" in OU.. Ho-Oh is Uber because of its sheer power and stats, it has the time to Roost. Salamence is plagued by Stealth Rock because it needs to switch, it needs to attack with its Life Orb. The problem with Salamence is that its life is limited. It can't consistently punch holes every single match because it will come into situations where it can't simply fire off a faulty attack choice. That's Life Orb recoil that it could have spent doing something else. So it switches, only to be met with another 25%. That's a 50% health Salamence, not counting Sandstorm or if it has attacked. That's in KO range of Gengar's Shadow Ball, Scizor's Bullet Punch, Choice Scarf Tyranitar's Crunch. Salamence just isn't durable enough to consistently do its job for the team. That's why it isn't Uber. It's also why the other sets without Life Orb aren't being tested.
Uh, yes it is. Put a spinner on your team, and if he gets one free turn, he's pretty much guarunteed a kill, and can easily get several due to you needing a base 95+ max speed scarfer to outspeed it, and Scizor's Bullet Punch is unlikely to KO at 25%.
Basically, the point is, all that it takes to make Charizard viable is the second sentence of this post: put a spinner on your team. Starmie is a great pokemon, and it gets excellent coverage with Surf / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt, giving it a free slot to spin.
Well, without a spinner >_>
I use that starmie on my Shoddy team lol
It Ho-oh is "most obviously" Uber, why would it be in OU anyway?
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Do you even know how easy it is to keep rocks off the field? Hell, even if rocks get down, do you know how easy it is to get them off? Do you even know how often sandstorm is in battle?
The answers are very, very, and less than 25%.
Now, do you even understand the implications when I say Mence completely dominates the Metagame if he chooses the right move on the switch-in? Do you understand that if you don't switch something in, Mence is also very likely to set-up multiple times in your face, allowing him to destroy the checks you have for him? Do you even realize what happens when you choose wrong in comparison to what happens when Mence chooses wrong? Mence chooses wrong and he completely cripples one of your defensive core. You choose wrong Mence destroys you. Does that not not pop off red flags to you?
First off, I don't get why Ho-oh is even being brought into this. Sure, Ho-oh, just like Mence, is crippled by Stealth Rock, but let's not forget that it's 4x weak to it, meaning that if your prediction is on point, you can limit Ho-oh's options severely (really, if you can get Ho-oh down to 1%, it's only options are to shoot off a desperation attack, or Roost). Mence is not the same case. Salamence, who can bluff several sets at once, isn't limited to three switch ins (2 if you count SS / LO in Ho-oh's situation), so if you even if you manage to outpredict it and scare it away, chances are that it's going to switch back in once its main threats (Scarfed Steels, Skarmory, Blissey, etc) are gone and wreak havoc later in the game. In fact, I almost never see MixMence stay in for more than a single turn unless my team has been weakened to the point where it can sweep. In addition to that, Ho-oh's bulky as fuck, and definitely not slow for OU standards, so it's going to take more than outpredicting it to kill it off. Secondly, I don't think that "too easy to wear down" is a legitimate claim to keep Mence OU. Yes, residual damage is a huge portion of determining tiering, but if the above quote was the case, then I don't see why we're not suspecting Deoxys-L, or even Wobbuffet for that matter? Both are worn down by U-turns from Scizor, Flygon, and Infernape, and constant hits from the common OU sweepers (though, in the latter's case, you'd be trading a Pokemon for a Pokemon) as well as all forms of entry hazards. Mence isn't any different from either Pokemon since it too can be worn down easily if you don't give it the chance of switching in and staying in safely. Salamence's ability to be checked like any other sweeper in OU, imo, is the only thing that keeps me in limbo on its tiering.
In all honesty, I don't have a problem killing Mence, but the first time that it switches in, it feels like I'm placing my cock under a guillotine with a gun pointed to my head. If I don't act calmly and intelligently I'll either lose an important Pokemon on my team, and possibly the game all together if I just play horribly. Unfortunately, playing around Mence is incredibly difficult due to three of is most potent and common sets that it can bluff effectively: New MixMence, Classic MixMence, and DDMence. The two MixMence sets are played pretty similarly, but the methods of checking them are very different; to be more precise, one set doesn't trap itself to kill Blissey while one does - well, I guess Roost is another difference, but that only makes a difference when Mence switches into a choice locked resistance/ground attack. The DD sets are what make me paranoid about checking Mence, since a wrong choice will cost me a few Pokemon. Yeah, mispredicting against Luke/Nape can result in similar consequences, but if either Pokemon attempts to bluff a move (i.e Bullet Punch > Crunch; SD Ape), they're still manageable and don't require to be worn to 50% of their health in order to be finished off by a Pokemon that instantly becomes set up fodder for another sweeper (yeah Scizor I'm talking to you, fuck your Bullet Punch, I have a Suicune/Lucario/Scizor/Kingdra/Raikou/Jolteon/Jirachi/Gyarados/Rotom-A/Magnezone/Metagross that doesn't mind setting up in your face). On a smaller note, I have to admit that the Mixed Dancer is incredibly fun to play around with. The ability to bluff MixMence is enough to mow through most of OU, since most players rely on wearing it down with constant switches, healing off small damage, etc to come out on top.
Though, despite what could happen when Mence switches in, there's always a method of beating it, albeit unreliable... unless you theorymoned too hard when making your team and became set up fodder for another legitimate sweeper. In which case, you should be set on fire ^_^
In all honesty, I don't have a problem killing Mence, but the first time that it switches in, it feels like I'm placing my cock under a guillotine with a gun pointed to my head. If I don't act calmly and intelligently I'll either lose an important Pokemon on my team, and possibly the game all together if I just play horribly. Unfortunately, playing around Mence is incredibly difficult due to three of is most potent and common sets that it can bluff effectively: New MixMence, Classic MixMence, and DDMence. The two MixMence sets are played pretty similarly, but the methods of checking them are very different; to be more precise, one set doesn't trap itself to kill Blissey while one does - well, I guess Roost is another difference, but that only makes a difference when Mence switches into a choice locked resistance/ground attack. The DD sets are what make me paranoid about checking Mence, since a wrong choice will cost me a few Pokemon. Yeah, mispredicting against Luke/Nape can result in similar consequences, but if either Pokemon attempts to bluff a move (i.e Bullet Punch > Crunch; SD Ape), they're still manageable and don't require to be worn to 50% of their health in order to be finished off by a Pokemon that instantly becomes set up fodder for another sweeper (yeah Scizor I'm talking to you, fuck your Bullet Punch, I have a Suicune/Lucario/Scizor/Kingdra/Raikou/Jolteon/Jirachi/Gyarados/Rotom-A/Magnezone/Metagross that doesn't mind setting up in your face). On a smaller note, I have to admit that the Mixed Dancer is incredibly fun to play around with. The ability to bluff MixMence is enough to mow through most of OU, since most players rely on wearing it down with constant switches, healing off small damage, etc to come out on top.
Though, despite what could happen when Mence switches in, there's always a method of beating it, albeit unreliable... unless you theorymoned too hard when making your team and became set up fodder for another legitimate sweeper. In which case, you should be set on fire ^_^
BurningMan
fueled by beer
But Stealth Rock WOULD make Ho-oh more manageable in OU and if we would disscuss if ho-oh should be ou residual damage would be a point that cant just be ignored.
by no means i want ho-oh being ou i just wanna say that immunity/weakness/resistance to residual damage is an important point how useful a pokemon is.
Articuno got great defensive stats but its typing and sr weakness stops it from being useable in the higher tiers.
Do you (= anyone who argues) understand how much time you have wasted? And do you understand that no one cares about who is wrong/right?
Ultimately, it comes to a vote. Vote 1 way or vote the opposite.
Wasting time here is all that occurs during argument.
*Neutral 3rd Party Perspective - Stop wasting time*
Ultimately, it comes to a vote. Vote 1 way or vote the opposite.
Wasting time here is all that occurs during argument.
*Neutral 3rd Party Perspective - Stop wasting time*
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
I agree with this.
Are you shitting me? It might be easy to keep rocks OFF, but it's also easy to put them back on. It's also easy to spin block. Plus, Tyranitar and Hippowdon, combined, give a 49.8% chance that you will see Sandstorm on the field. Definently more than 25%! Also, no, it is not beneficial to make the wrong move. Really? How is Salamence going to "cripple a defensive core" is he chooses the wrong move? Ya go ahead and Fire Blast Suicune, or Draco Meteor that Bronzong. That's one round, Stealth Rock, Life Orb, Sandstorm. A -2 SpA Salamence. Hi Swampert. Out goes the Salamence. In it comes later, Stealth Rock, Life Orb, Sandstorm.
Yeah that's totally not hurting Mence cause he predicted wrong!
Yeah that's totally not hurting Mence cause he predicted wrong!
Where is this "we" coming from.
-Effects of passive damage are not relevant towards tiering
-Rock and Ice attacks are only used for Salamence
Are both your claims, and both quite ridiculous. They are ridiculous because they are stated as if factual when both are clearly wrong.
"Salamence should be OU, in part because SR and passice damage severely hamper its sweeping abilities."
Blue is a statement, but red, by using "Salamence is OU" (OU being a subjective phrase), clearly indicates this is an opinion statement, so it is up to you to agree or diagree. The statement is not structured as if it should be taken as fact.
The Ho-Oh comparison is very relevant, despite the efforts of some pro-OU individuals to strawman the fuck out of it. The idea that Salamence is OU solely or even primarily because of its weakness to Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and Life Orb is just utterly asinine. Residual damage is important as far as tiering consideration goes, but it should be nothing more than a footnote in pro-OU arguments, instead of it being the primary issue, as is the case now.
If I were to ask someone "Why do you think Ho-Oh is Uber?" they would probably say something like "The reason Ho-Oh is Uber is because, regardless of its greater vulnerability to passive damage compared to Salamence, it can hit things so hard and it has so few safe switchins that it is virtually guaranteed a kill every time it comes". And if you look at this argument, you can replace "Ho-Oh" with "Salamence" and end up with virtually the same thing the pro-Uber people have been saying in this thread. And don't bring up defenses; not only do defenses not matter when you take 25% more on the switch-in, but Salamence also has Intimidate and significantly better typing, which makes it WAY better on the defense than Ho-Oh despite its statistically inferior stats (see: Moltres v Arcanine).
Keep in mind that I'm not arguing for Salamence's tiering status one way or another. My last few posts in this thread were arguments against the people saying "salamence has no counters" because that's a stupid argument too. So my general advice to everyone is "stop being stupid". There are very valid against salamence being Uber (like how it's not really better than dragonite, etc)
If I were to ask someone "Why do you think Ho-Oh is Uber?" they would probably say something like "The reason Ho-Oh is Uber is because, regardless of its greater vulnerability to passive damage compared to Salamence, it can hit things so hard and it has so few safe switchins that it is virtually guaranteed a kill every time it comes". And if you look at this argument, you can replace "Ho-Oh" with "Salamence" and end up with virtually the same thing the pro-Uber people have been saying in this thread. And don't bring up defenses; not only do defenses not matter when you take 25% more on the switch-in, but Salamence also has Intimidate and significantly better typing, which makes it WAY better on the defense than Ho-Oh despite its statistically inferior stats (see: Moltres v Arcanine).
Keep in mind that I'm not arguing for Salamence's tiering status one way or another. My last few posts in this thread were arguments against the people saying "salamence has no counters" because that's a stupid argument too. So my general advice to everyone is "stop being stupid". There are very valid against salamence being Uber (like how it's not really better than dragonite, etc)
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