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The Negative Metagame

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Cobraroll, May 6, 2013.

  1. Cobraroll

    Cobraroll
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    AKA "Topsy-turvy Metagame", approved by Arcticblast
    No, this isn't another story about the current state of the OU Metagame. This is an alternate metagame where we do things... differently than elsewhere.
    The premise is quite simple. All Pokémon's base stats are recalculated using this formula:
    (New stat) = 160 - (current stat)
    If a stat is equal to or greater than 155 (for instance, Slaking's Attack or Blissey's HP), it's set to 5. The lowest stat in current play is 5, so the highest stat a Pokémon will enjoy is 155. Note that while Shedinja technically has base 159 HP, its actural HP isn't calculated from the base stat, so it still has 1 HP.

    Ubers are unbanned, for what good that might give you. For instance, using the formula above, Mewtwo ends up with base 6 Sp.Atk. Darkrai's Base 35 Speed would have it be outsped by today's Burmy. Arceus' base stats are suddenly on par with the current Sunkern. And vice versa. Perhaps the Deoxys formes can still contribute somehow, but otherwise, Ubers in TNM are a pitiful sight.

    So, how would this metagame work in practise? First and foremost, the stars of OU need to look after new jobs. Evolved Pokémon become inferior to their NFE counterparts. Glass cannons with massive Attack and low everything else, suddenly turn into mighty walls. Shuckle outspeeds everything bar Munchlax, and is a truly offensive monster with great HP, but the defenses of wet tissue paper. The strongest Pokémon without evolutionary relatives is Luvdisc.

    However, all isn't fun and joy for the babies. Many Pokémon have movepools designed to help their current stats. Now, the jobs they used to perform is their weakest card on hand, and they will have to use whatever tools they've got from "the other side". For instance, Bonsly has 140 Sp.Atk now, but its entire Special movepool consists of these moves: Hidden Power, Earth Power, Round, Snore and Uproar. No matter how high their stats, NFEs are still NFEs, and their movepools are still limited. On the other hand, there are fully evolved Pokémon with massive movepools and still tolerable stats. Darmanitan might be slow, but it has the movepool to abuse base 120 Sp.Atk. Delcatty's titanic movepool really complements its decent stats. Togetic hits hard and fast.

    One thing is for sure, this metagame requires you to think differently about your favourite (and least favourite!) Pokémon. The top threats of the metagame are Pokémon we'd never even consider to use in most other situations. The heavy-hitters of OU and Ubers are forced out of the spotlight by the crappiest Baby Pokémon GameFreak have ever conceived. Great strenghts and great weaknesses are turned topsy-turvy.

    Eviolite would be a subject for debate. Now, most of the best Pokémon can use it, where their less fortunate evolved brethren can't. Should it be tweaked so it can only be used by Pokémon who has a pre-evolution, thus preventing the likes of Igglybuff and Cleffa to run amoc with it? Yet better, we just banned it.

    Last, for reasons that should be obvious to everybody, Smeargle is banned. Also, unless stated otherwise, the regulations and restrictions of Standard play still apply.

    EDIT 10/5-13: Eviolite is also banned. It turned out to be a drawback-free Defense boost for pretty much every relevant 'mon in this metagame.

    Now, discuss!

    EDIT FOR X/Y RESUBMISSION:
    The following items and abilities are added to the banlist:
    - Huge Power
    - Pure Power
    - Light Ball
    - Thick Club
    - DeepSeaTooth
    - DeepSeaScale

    P.S.: This Bulbapedia article is a great reference for seeking out threats.
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
    MikeDawg likes this.
  2. vyomov

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    Magikarp is beast in this metagame with eviolite LOL
  3. Cobraroll

    Cobraroll
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    ^How so? It has the stats, indeed, but Flail, Bounce and Tackle won't bring it very far.
  4. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    Speaking of Darmanitan, this guy can become a beast. With low speed and good bulk, it can tank a hit, set up Belly Drum, and wreck havoc with its now amazing speed and attack. Edit: yeah sorry I meant that Belly Drum brings it into Darmanitan-Z, who has amazing speed and attack. Zen Mode is useful now.

    And speaking of fishes like Magikarp, Adaptability Feebas in the rain becomes like a Crawdaunt without boosting moves -- great wallbreaking abilities. Swift Swim could work as well.

    Prankster Riolu would be one of the most annoying things ever, with speed shuffling made faster, and pretty good bulk boosted by Eviolite, if it doesn't get banned. Lotad can be used as an amazing Swift Swim sweeper. Same with Sunkern for Chlorophyll.

    Pikachu with Light Ball now becomes an absolute monster, with 125/130/120 defenses and 105/110/70 offenses boosted by Light Ball. Its low speed can be mitigated with a powerful Extremespeed/Volt Tackle set, or it can even boost its speed with Agility. Similarly, Cubone also becomes a major threat with Thick Club. And finally, Farfetch'd is now viable.

    Great metagame, you get a luvdisc
    MikeDawg likes this.
  5. Anty

    Anty

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    It is a great idea but wouldn't sunkern and tyroge be brocken (never thought id say that) since the first destroys in sun with an alright move pool, giga drain, earth power, sludge bomb and hidden power, whilst the later has guts with high jump kick.

    Also now blissey is a defensive monster and cannot take special hits.
  6. Laga

    Laga Thank u based danish pastry
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    Darmantian now has base 20 attack... that isn't really "good" :I

    but yeah, this is an interesting metagame, where many new things might see a big change (shuckle is frickin OP) and Azumarill with base 90 attack + huge power, and the above mentioned will be wrecking too (except darmanitan ._.) Great idea, and yet another simple idea might turn into a popular metagame :^D
  7. Eagle4

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    Let's look at a few Pokemon who could do well in this metagame:

    Delibird: 115/105/115/95/115/85

    Hindered by a poortyping slightly, Delibird can still hold it's own due to those wonderful 115/115/115 defenses, as well as great offenses and respectable speed.

    Luvdisc: 117/130/105/120/95/63

    Luvdisc can take hits brilliantly and hit like a truck o_o

    Abra:135/140/145/55/105/70

    Abra becomes a bulky behemoth with all of Alakazam's moves, and can then destroy teams with its 140 base attack.

    Diglett: 150/115/135/125/115/65

    Diglett loses its speed but becomes a better trapper than Dugtrio, able to take a hit with those awesome defenses, and then defeat the opponent with mixed moves.

    Zorua: 120/95/120/80/120/95

    Zorua works well with Illusion, able to take a lot of hits and then still use its decent attack and speed to defeat opponents.

    Shuckle: 140/150/5/150/5/155

    One of my favourite pokemon can now hold its own. Slap a Choice Band on Shuckle, and a combination of great attack and Sturdy will mean a guaranteed KO. Shuckle now has the ability to run special as well.

    Smeargle: 115/140/125/140/115/85

    Shell Smash = Instant win.

    Shedinja: 1/70/115/130/130/120

    A special sweeper with Wonder Guard? Yes please.

    Skitty: 110/115/115/125/125/110

    A great movepool, a great choice of lead, everything works in favour for Skitty.
  8. tehy

    tehy

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    So just wondering...how about Darmanitan-Z?

    He seems to have ridonk Atk and Spe stats, with crappy bulk mind you but still. And his normally great physical movepool.

    The best part is that Belly Drumming down to 50% is now a legitimate strategy, and because he (Darmanitan) can also be a special beast, you can't just instantly lol and prevent setup. Some fun stuff with Salac could probably be done too.

    Also, smeargle is banned dude, like the OP says for obvious reasons. But Diglett looks broke as hell, able to trap and own anything or even set up on it with Hone Claws

    I think Diglett alone might be a reason to ban Eviolite. It's literally an EVIOLITE GIRATINA, with 5 off of each defense. With the offenses of a Giratina-O.

    And did I mention ARENA TRAP?

    Also:Abra is a wall with eviolite 135/145/105 bulk, Recover, and Magic Guard. And that base 140 attack crushes all.

    I guess the offensive behemoths could balance out the defensive behemoths, but ATM Eviolite just seems a little ridiculous.
  9. coolking49

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    Zigzagoon. It has belly drum and extreme speed. Also, Azumaril now has base 110 attack, to go with huge power, Aqua Jet, and a good speed. Lastly, lickitung can abuse its now high attack stat, to go with a good speed and Earthquake/Return coverage. It doesn't have much to hit ghosts or sweepers like Bronzor (hasn't everyone always wanted to say that?), but it can use zen headbutt or power whip for coverage.

    Also, belly drum Cleffa. 'nough said.
  10. Cobraroll

    Cobraroll
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    Why do people label Azumarill as OP? I mean, I can name a Pokémon that can do everything it does, bar Giga Impact, but better: Marill. Base 140 Attack and Huge Power? Perhaps certain abilities give certain Pokémon too much power. Meditite being another example. Especially seeing as very few Pokémon have good HP in this metagame.

    Then again, there could be viable ways to get around these as well. Remember, this is the metagame where Ninjask can run rampant with Choice Specs - under Trick Room, that is. If that can be a legit strategy, anything is possible.
  11. nyph

    nyph

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    Holy shit belly drum azuril. Also meditite.
  12. thesynchrohero

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    What's Kyurem-Black's attack and likewise for Kyu-W's SAtk also, Deo-A/D
  13. coolking49

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    azuril doesn't get water STAB. cleffa does it better.
  14. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    Here are two Pokemon that i think could be really threatening in this metagame =).

    [​IMG]
    Feebas - Water | Swift Swim/Adaptability (DW) | 140/145/140/150/105/80 | LC | Low Kick/Grass Knot: 20 BP

    Feebas seems like a possible top tier threat to me at the moment, its stats are usually absolutely horrid, but in the negative metagame, it gets great stats across the board (except for its speed, which is averageish), most notably an absolutely massive base 150 Special Attack to abuse its Water-type STAB wish (Magikarp might not be able to learn TMs, but Feebas at least has access to Surf, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power as well as some potentially cool egg moves). This amazing Special Attack stat is further augmented by Adaptability, turning Feebas into a huge powerhouse! Whats more? because Feebas is an NFE, it can use Eviolite to boost its already good bulk, allowing it to take more than its fair share of hits even if it cant immediately OHKO its opponent.

    [​IMG]
    Sunkern - Grass | Chlorophyll/Solar Power/Early Bird (DW) | 130/130/130/130/130/130 | LC | Low Kick/Grass Knot: 20 BP

    Ah yes, Sunkern, well known for having the absolute lowest BST out of any Pokemon in the game during normal play, but like Feebas, the Negative Metagame gives Sunkern an absolutely massive buff, gifting the little seed with 130 base stats across the board (and like Feebas, its defenses are further boosted by Eviolite!). While Sunkern might seem threatening enough with those new base stats+Eviolite access, it becomes even more of a monster when used in Sun, either getting a big Speed boost or a massive Power boost in exchange for some longevity in the sun's rays.
  15. Blizzard

    Blizzard @ NeverMeltIce
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    Here are some pokemon i feel will definitely make an impact on the TT metagame.
    [​IMG]
    91/105/115/105/105/145
    Right off the bat, i can see Foongus becoming a top threat. with access to spore/ stun spore as well as a base 145 speed, it is quite the annoying pokemon. Add in Eviolite and Regenerator, and you have a pokemon that can help spore/ paralyze any pokemon throughout the match! It doesnt have shabby offensive stats either.

    Weather is something that cannot be avoided in any metagame if it is allowed:
    [​IMG]
    122/119/120/110/95/95
    Vulpix would really shine, imo. brilliant defensive stats, but not as fast as ninetales; it is now the best of all the starters =)

    [​IMG]
    92/88/82/122/118/128
    Hippopotas is now a super fast sand summoner, and a hard hitter on the special side, with access to earth power and stuff to hit the weaker side of vulpix's defenses

    [​IMG]
    100/98/110/98/100/120
    Unfortunately, snover's probably the weakest of the weather starters. but it has a brillant offensive typing, but it probably would be hardpressed to hit the other summoners for a lot of damage.

    Oh, and rain has only two weather inducers: politoed, and kyogre. In this case, politoed is definitely superior of the two, lol.

    Cool metagame. I believe it will probably be more of an LC Metagame with Topsy-Turvy stats, though.
  16. Dr. Alex

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    I could imagine Squirtle being a great spinner in this tier. Great defensive typing and a nice speed, along with some nice defensive stats could make it a real tank. It could also have the capability to run an all out power-house set with its nice movepool.

    116/112/95/110/96/117

    I don't know what EVs would go well with our little blue friend, but he can surely pull off a bulky, quick spinner set.

    Oh, and Sunkern would be super OP, especially with the help of a vulpix.
  17. DrRobotnik

    DrRobotnik

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    Shuckle: 140/150/-70/150/-70/155

    Wait how would things with more than 160 work?
  18. Darknesscrusher

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    Will turn to 5.
  19. DrRobotnik

    DrRobotnik

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    Alright then.

    Shuckle: 140/150/5/150/5/155 Give it guard split and you're gold.

    Pikachu: 125/105/130/110/120/70 With a light ball it's insane, great defenses and typing makes the speed thing almost a non-issue.

    Medicham: 100/100/85/100/85/80 pretty much a straight upgrade.
  20. Blizzard

    Blizzard @ NeverMeltIce
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    I know this seems rather ridiculous, but how about eviolite activating the boosted defense of fully evolved pokemon? The NFEs are strong enough to do without eviolite, and most of them can successfully go offensive.

    Just a random thought. But i think a little playtesting would remove all doubts.
  21. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Oh wait... what about Happiny
    [​IMG]
    60/155/155/145/85/120
    It has amazing bulk with eviolite(effectively 310 Def) and can troll with Serene Grace Mud Bomb(just keep spamming until they can't attack, always wins 1-1)
  22. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs Rule 51
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    How does Cleffa do Belly Drum better than Azurill? Azurill not only has a higher base Atk stat, but it has Huge Power to boost it to insane levels. It also has Waterfall for coverage, and while it doesn't get STAB on it, Waterfall does get really good neutral coverage alongside STAB Return. I'd say that Azurill might be outclassed a bit by Marill, who trades speed and bulk for Water STAB, extra coverage moves, and Aqua Jet, but not by Cleffa, who's best answer to Normal resists is...Dig.

    There are a few Pokemon that I think could be really interesting in this metagame.


    [​IMG]
    115 / 85 / 100 / 120 / 130 / 110
    Unfortunately, the LC Dragons tend to have decent stats for first-stage Pokemon, so they aren't so impressive in this metagame. Bagon actually looks to be pretty good as a specially offensive Dragon. Base 120 SpA stat is really good, better than Salamence in normal OU. It also has great overall bulk, especially on the special side, and fantastic speed. Bagon's movepool certainly lends itself to a specially offensive role, boasting a powerful Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump + Fire Blast for coverage. As a bonus, Bagon also has Sheer Force, making its Fire Blast that much more powerful. Pure Dragon typing is also a big helper, letting it take Ice moves more easily than a Dragon / Flying or Ground type.


    [​IMG]
    102 / 90 / 115 / 120 / 115 / 118
    I really can't decide whether I like Bagon more or Gible. Both have the same SpA and similar physical bulk, and while Bagon has considerably more special bulk, Gible has a bit more speed. Gible also has STAB Earth Power to compliment its Dragon STAB. While Bagon has a slight advantage with Sheer Force, giving it a far more powerful Fire Blast, Gible does have Rough Skin to spread a little extra passive damage and punish Pokemon that make physical contact with it.


    [​IMG]
    90 / 80 / 110 / 125 / 125 / 125
    Machop is actually a really cool specially offensive Pokemon. Not only is its special power and speed nothing short of excellent, but it also has No Guard! This gives it a perfectly accurate special STAB in Focus Blast, and Fire Blast helps offer valuable coverage (again, it won't miss). Machop also has Vacuum Wave, a great STAB priority move. Overall, great offensive Pokemon.


    [​IMG]
    140 / 150 / 5 / 150 / 5 / 155
    You might want to take a deep breath before continuing. Okay, so Shuckle is now essentially the fasted Pokemon in the metagame. It's also one of the most powerful Pokemon, with dual base 150 offensive stats. Oh, you thought that was all? Not yet. It also has SHELL SMASH, boosting its offensive stats go mind blowing levels the likes of which no one has ever seen before from a Shell Smash sweeper. But wait, there's more! Shuckle also gets Sturdy, so if you don't have hazards down or Hail up, Shuckle is guaranteed to get a Shell Smash boost. Oh yeah, and just for good measure, it gets Final Gambit, which is actually very powerful due to Shuckle's high base 140 HP stat. Good luck.


    [​IMG]
    110 / 5 / 140 / 5 / 140 / 10
    Deoxys-A is pretty much exactly like Shuckle, only...the exact opposite. Deoxys-A is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the metagame, and it actually has a reliable recovery move to take advantage of it with. Its offenses are completely terrible, even worse than those of a normal Shuckle (it's faster though!), but it does have Seismic Toss and Night Shade to compensate. Still, you'll probably never want to use Deoxys-A since several other Pokemon such as Sunkern have similar or greater bulk, and they actually have fantastic offense to compliment. Great novelty, though.


    [​IMG]
    125 / 125 / 125 / 125 / 125 / 125
    Tyrogue is awesome in so many ways. First of all, it's arguably the best Rapid Spinner out there. Tyrogue has fantastic overall bulk, power, speed..well, let's put it this way: Tyrogue is a beefed-up Arceus as far as stats go. It also has a powerful STAB Hi Jump Kick and moves like Rock Slide and Earthquake for coverage. Tyrogue can even take advantage of Guts to make itself even more powerful, while also using Facade as a very powerful coverage move. It doesn't even need Protect to help activate its orb; Fake Out will do the same job while netting some free damage at the same time. Let's also not forget that Tyrogue gets a multitude of priority moves, including the aforementioned Fake Out, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave. Simply amazing.
  23. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    [​IMG]
    115 / 60 / 115 / 115 / 115 / 150

    Trapinch seems like a pretty cool pokemon for this metagame. While it's not as bulky or powerful as Diglett, that Base 150 Speed allows it to outspeed pretty much everything in this metagame outside of Shuckle and Munchlax. When combined with Arena Trap and a decent special attack stat, this could make Trapinch a better trapper than Diglett for hyper-offensive teams. I imagine the common set would look something like this.

    Trapinch @ Life Orb
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Signal Beam
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Toxic

    Okay, this thing has a god-awful movepool, so that's another reason to use Diglett instead... what a quirky metagame. :p

    Here's something that's much better.
    [​IMG]
    70 / 95 / 95 / 120 / 120 / 145

    Slowpoke still outspeeds almost everything (lol...) but packs a greater punch and has a FAR better movepool than most of its competition. Furthermore, its somewhat lower bulk is offset by its many resistances and REGENERATOR amongst other things. A simple 4 attacks and LO set would probably breeze through a lot of the competition. You can even go physical with Belly Drum if you really want.

    Slowpoke @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Psyshock
    - Fire Blast / Calm Mind

    Slowpoke @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SpA)
    - Belly Drum
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Dive
    - Return

    Before you ask, I'm sure that Slowpoke is fast enough to get away with using Dive if DD Gyarados can get away with Bounce. Furthermore, this metagame...
  24. apt-get

    apt-get MY EXCADRILLS WILL PIERCE THE DOORS OF ARCEUS' REALM
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    Dunno how this thing hasn't been mentioned yet

    [​IMG]
    Cleffa
    110 HP / 135 Atk / 132 Def / 115 SpA / 105 SpD / 145 Spe
    Cute Charm / Magic Guard / Friend Guard (DW)

    Cleffa @ Eviolite
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Softboiled
    - Calm Mind
    - Stored Power
    - Fire Blast


    ... I know, I know, you'll laugh at me, but really that thing doesn't have BoltBeam. And I theorymonned about it all day. Still, psychic + Fire is great coverage, misses out only on obscure things that are unviable in NegaMeta.

    So yeah that thing has insane Def maxed with eviolite with great HP, with really nice speed even unboosted and god SpA and decent SpD. You may say that using its attack stat is better, but it has a better special movepool. So yeah, Magic Guard + Calm Mind + Softboiled is excellent (that thing can take so many physical hits it's not even funny, and a fuckload of special hits too when boosted)
    252+ Atk Guts Tyrogue Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Cleffa: 270-318 (63.67 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    So yeah it can take probably one of the most powerful attacks in the tier, Guts-boosted Tyrogue's Hi Jump Kick with an adamant nature. (Same calc than CB too)


    Oh, and if you run scarf Tyrogue:
    252+ Atk Tyrogue Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Cleffa: 180-212 (42.45 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO


    Meanwhile, you're boosting up freely and you 2HKO it with +1 60BP Stored Power. So yeah, Cleffa's THAT bulky. (Or you can just keep spamming softboiled while it will miss, that works too), and then you sweep becuz nothin' will touch you thanks to dem defenses while you 1-2HKO them
  25. Arkeis

    Arkeis (づ。◕‿‿◕。)づ (formerly aragornbird)
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    All these fun metagames. I want to play 'em all!

    [​IMG]
    Wooper
    105 / 115 / 115 / 135 / 135 / 145

    If you're having problems with any non-Grass setup sweeper, Wooper is your best friend. It has Unaware, so it doesn't care about stat boosts and can boost its own stats with Stockpile. And it's part Ground type, so it can switch into Pikachu's Electric attacks. Grass Knot won't do much because Wooper is so light, so its most effective option is HP Grass. And even Shuckle can't do much to it without Gastro Acid or HP Grass.

    [​IMG]
    Gastly
    130 / 125 / 130 / 60 / 125 / 80

    If you want a spin blocker, Gastly is by far the bulkiest Ghost. And it can learn all three elemental punches as well as Sucker Punch, so its high Attack isn't completely wasted.

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