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The Negative Metagame

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Codraroll, May 6, 2013.

  1. ILoveGarchomp

    ILoveGarchomp

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    Wow, i look forward to see this implemented in some pokemon showdown :D
  2. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Ditto makes an interesting appearence in this metagame with base 112 HP impostor, meaning that its bulk (minus eviolite) is on par with the rest of the metagame.

    Spinda receives some fairly average stats, 100 all around, but still has access to Contrary Superpower, as well as a generally large movepool.

    And of course, our lord and savior Bidoof comes at a fantastic 101/115/120/125/120/129 which is nothing but good stats everywhere. He's got a solid movepool with access to Simple Curse and Charge Beam, so he's certainly viable.
  3. Menace13

    Menace13

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    Screw Azurill, Marill becomes the best Pokémon in the game, it seems. (Azurill doesn't have Aqua Jet; Marill does.)

    Take ridiculous 90/140/110/140/110/120 stats, then give it Huge Power. Furthermore, it has priority STAB in Aqua Jet. Consider that it also has Belly Drum. Here are some examples of what it can do after a Belly Drum (which it is almost guaranteed to get up with an Eviolite).
    +6 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Abra: 336-396 (70.88 - 83.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Lotad: 411-484 (92.56 - 109%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

    Without investment, it outspeeds a Pikachu that has full investment with a positive nature. Furthermore, Pikachu only has a 23.44% chance to 2HKO Marill without Nasty Plot (which makes it a high chance to OHKO). In exchange, Marill OHKOs Pikachu cleanly.

    Marill will wreck this metagame.

    EDIT: I should also note that Abra is the second most physically defensive Pokémon in the metagame, after Diglett (who turns up as the all-around best wall in the metagame). Taillow becomes the best specially defensive wall in the metagame, with the ability to hit hard via Guts or hit everything through Scrappy. Furthermore, it has Roost to prolong its livelihood. Seedot is also an amazing wall with 130 base stats all around.
  4. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Why would you use Aqua Jet if you already outspeed Abra (by a lot)?
  5. ILoveGarchomp

    ILoveGarchomp

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    Notice that aqua jet has the same power (with Huge power) than extremespeed arceus in the ubers metagame. Your argument can be used in that regard too: why run extremespeed on an already fast mon?
  6. Codraroll

    Codraroll
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    Now, why would you want to Choice lock yourself into Belly Drum?

    Also, great to see so much feedback on this idea already. I had thought of a few 'mons to gain traction in this meta, but people seem to have come up with a lot more ingenious uses for more ingenious 'mons than I had ever imagined.
  7. The Reptile

    The Reptile mfw
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    Big theat gogogo

    [​IMG]
    130 / 120 / 105 / 120 / 105 / 100

    Meditite is the other abuser of Huge Power in the meta. Unlike Marill though, Meditite actually has a good movepool to use, and has pretty good bulk. The only thing holding Meditite back is it's OK speed. Here's a comparison between Meditie and Marill
    130 / 120 / 105 / 120 / 105 / 100
    90 / 140 / 110 / 140 / 110 / 120
    Bolded the important better stats. Marill has more power than Meditite, but Meditite has usable bulk and OK speed for something with that bulk. Both can set up, however, Marill has Belly Drum for a one shot at glory. Meditite can use Bulk Up to increases it's already good bulk and Recover to, well, recover. It should be noted that both have a decent enough Special Attack (Marills is superb, while Meditites is less so, but still good.). It also get a priority move (although a non STAB one).

    Random Set Ideas (open)

    Meditite @ Eviolite
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Careful Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Drain Punch
    - Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt
    - Recover

    Meditite @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut
    - Ice Punch
    - Trick / ThunderPunch

    Meditite @ Choice Band / Life Orb
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt
    - Ice Punch / Trick

    Meditite @ Eviolite / Life Orb
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Atk | 252 SAtk / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
    Mild / Hasty Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic
    - Hi Jump Kick / Drain Punch
    - Shadow Ball


    Also, Ralts is cool too.

    [​IMG]
    112 / 135 / 135 / 115 / 125 / 120

    As compared to Abra...
    135 / 140 / 145 / 55 / 105 / 70

    Ralts is much faster than Abra, and sports better Special Defense (Going to calc to see bulkiness comparison) and a usable Special Attack. However, Abra is stronger and has more physical bulk. Abra also has Drain Punch for coverage, while Ralts has Shadow Sneak. Not much to say here, because Abra and Ralt function pretty much the same, and I'll end up repeating what people said about Abra.

    EDIT3:

    Code:
    252 SpA Life Orb Sunkern Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ralts: 133-157 (36.43 - 43.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sunkern Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 153-181 (37.22 - 44.03%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sunkern Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ralts: 99-118 (23.13 - 27.57%) -- possible 4HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sunkern Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Abra: 110-133 (23.2 - 28.05%) -- possible 4HKO
    
    Yeah, not much bulkier than Abra specially defenive. :( Wallset might be outclassed by Abra, who has Recover. However, Ralts can pass Wishes, so that's cool.

    Random Set Ideas (open)

    Ralts @ Choice Band / Life Orb
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Fire Punch
    - Trick / Ice Punch / ThunderPunch

    Ralts @ Eviolite
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic / Signal Beam
    - Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting] / Wish

    Ralts @ Eviolite
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Careful Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Will-o-Wisp / Shadow Sneak


    Overall, all 4 of these pokemon look great in the meta.

    EDIT: Going to format potential sets better, gimmi a sec :P
    EDIT2: Done
  8. Sewa

    Sewa

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    Sadly Belly Drum is illegal with Aqua Jet.
  9. apt-get

    apt-get platinum happy
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    Also

    [​IMG]
    115 / 60 / 115 / 115 / 115 / 150

    Why use shitty arena trap set when you can use sheer force? That thing has the same SpA as landorus (yes, the thing that everyone cried about) and can actually run modest and still outspeed everything. Also, far better bulk. (k they dont have the same movepool but still)
    You can easily run an earth power/signal beam/HP ice/fillermove set, that's all he needs to sweep. Ground/Bug/Ice has surprisingly good coverage, thanks to only bug-, grass- and flying-types resisting ground, and they're all dealt with these moves. Shit hits like a truck
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Trapinch Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Abra: 133-156 (28.05 - 32.91%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    Yep, you 4HKO the bulkiest wall in Negative Meta (or something like that), who has 135/145/105 fucking bulk, BOOSTED BY EVIOLITE. Might not seem like much but that's pretty neat.
  10. Magical Magmortar

    Magical Magmortar

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    I have never seen Ralts and Marill be discussed in a metagame. Ever. That just goes to show how awesome this metagame is.

    Also.........
    [​IMG]
    115/130/125/140/140/115

    Watch as you get swept by a Caterpie. It Electrowebs you into Oblivion right with that Abra of yours.
  11. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Except that ExtremeSpeed is Areceus only STAB there and it serves to void being revenge killed, my question was why would you use Aqua Jet against Abra when you outspeed it outside of TR, he can't revenge kill you and Aqua Jet only does about 50% so why risk getting killed in return when you can just Waterfall for the KO

    Also, I think people are being quick in dismissing Azurril even though her STAB works in the sun (rain has the worst starter now), her stats are higher and she has Waterfall and Bounce for coverage
  12. The Reptile

    The Reptile mfw
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    I agree with this. Stat comparison:
    Azu: 110 / 140 / 120 / 140 / 120 / 140
    Mar: 90 / 140 / 110 / 140 / 110 / 120
    Med: 130 / 120 / 105 / 120 / 105 / 100
    Azurill is the fastest out of the three, so it doesn't need Aqua Jet as much as Marril does.
    Code:
    252 SpA Life Orb Sunkern Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azurill: 136-161 (37.56 - 44.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 153-181 (38.05 - 45.02%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    
    Azurill is a completely different beast than Marill. It's faster and bulkier (slightly bulkier than Meditite). However, it's Normal-typing leaves it something to be desired - it's mediocre. And just like Marill, it has a mediocre movepool.
    All 3 play very differently, and neither should be discounted as a threat.
  13. Champion Steve

    Champion Steve

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    Wow, I actually tried a meta very similar to this, though some really buggy coding caused a lot of problems (damn your invincibility, Nega-Shuckle.) Still, with regards to Marill vs. Azurill, it's important to take into account Vulpix and Sunkern's dominance. Water attacks aren't too good when it's Sunny and Sunkern is rampaging.
  14. Harbinger of Peace

    Harbinger of Peace

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    Bronzor [​IMG]
    103 / 136 / 74 / 136 / 74 / 137

    I believe that Bronzor has some potential, with it's speed and offenses being higher than Sunkern's, although Bronzor does have less bulk. Bronzor is a fast sleep-inducer, and has a decent boosting move in calm mind. Bronzor also has a ton of resistances, so maybe it could also run a choice set. (IDK what's as viable, I'm just theorymonning, lol.)
  15. DrRobotnik

    DrRobotnik

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    [​IMG]
    140 / 150 / 5 / 150 / 5 / 155
    Shuckle @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    -Shell Smash/Guard Split
    -Stone Edge/Rock Slide
    -Earthquake
    -Final Gambit


    This is the ultimate set, for Shuckle and possibly the metagame. The first move alone gives this set a ton of versatility, you can either Smash and boost all of your good stats, or Split and boost your bad ones. Normally Shell Smash users run White Herb, but with 5 base defenses the defense cut really does not matter, and the Lum will come in handy if someone thinks they can status you while setting up.

    Rock/Ground might as well have perfect coverage as the only things that resist it actually have good stats (unless someone wants to run a special and/or defensive Breloom).

    And, of course, Final Gambit with that retarded HP stat will wipe almost anything off the map. It'll feel like you're in Gen 4 again (until someone has to ruin everything with weather #clearskies).

    [​IMG]
    125/105/130/110/120/70
    Pikachu @ Light Ball
    Trait: Lightningrod
    EVs: 4 Atk, 252 SAtk, 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    -Agility
    -Thunderbolt
    -Hidden Power Ice
    -Brick Break


    Pikachu's new found 110 special attack combined with Light Ball make it the most powerful special attacker in the game (not to mention its DW ability), and its 125/130/120 defenses with pure Electric typing make it great for taking hits. The only thing it lost in this meta was its speed, but Agility more than fixes that.

    Pikachu still does have one issue; a shitty movepool. Oh well, Electric/Ice hits quite a lot for super effective, and Brick Break is there representin' the physical attack stat and being the only other move of worth aside from Grass Knot, but everyone in this tier is a Flyweight.

    -Alternatively-

    Pikachu @ Light Ball
    Trait: Lightningrod
    EVs: 252 HP, 4/252 Def, 252/4 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    -Wish
    -Protect/Volt Switch
    -Thunderbolt/Volt Switch
    -Hidden Power Ice


    This set really brings out Pika's new bulk, while still pumping its Spattack to the equivalent of 700. Wish and Rest are its only recovery moves, and Rest would only be effective with a Chesto Berry, and that would mean no God Ball.

    Wish/Protect is good for Pikachu itself but Volt Wish would make it a better support. If you're going with Volt Switch over Thunderbolt, you're probably gonna want to max out Defense instead of Spattack, though. And, of course, HP Ice.

    [​IMG]
    125/125/125/125/125/125
    Tyrogue @ Toxic Orb/Flame Orb
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    -Bulk Up
    -Hi Jump Kick/Mach Punch
    -Rock Slide
    -Earthquake


    Better stats and typing than Arceus with an actual good ability, Tyrogue is definitely a force to be reckoned with.

    This set takes advantage of its insane base stats and pre evolutionary status. After one Bulk Up, you'll have the equivalent of 625 Attack, 483 Defense, and 450 Spdefense, making you a fucking monster. The choice between Mach Punch and HJK is priority vs. power.

    [​IMG]
    130 / 120 / 105 / 120 / 105 / 100
    Meditite @ Life Orb/Choice Band/Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spd
    Adamant/Jolly Nature
    -Bullet Punch
    -Hi Jump Kick
    -Psycho Cut
    -ThunderPunch


    This one is pretty self explanatory, it's just Medicham but way better.
  16. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
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    [​IMG]
    93 / 35 / 120 / 130 / 130 / 102
    Sheer Force @ Life Orb
    -AncientPower/HP Rock?
    -Ice Beam
    -Thunderbolt
    -Fire Blast

    Pretty slow for this meta, but slightly stronger and still bulky. Weak STAB is a letdown plus no SE move for Abra/Gastly but can SPAM Blizzards and Thunders with appropriate weather or just go superbulky eviolite delight in a sandstorm.
  17. The Reptile

    The Reptile mfw
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    Let's talk about Rain! No, I don't mean Drizzle, all the summoners suck for that. What I mean is Rain Dance. There are 3 amazing Rain Dancers that I've noticed that can summon their own rain.
    [​IMG]
    120 / 130 / 130 / 120 / 110 / 130

    Lotad would probably be good, even without Rain Dance, thanks to it's typing and stats (they're at near sunkern levels of good). However, it also gets Swift Swim, which, if it sets up a Rain Dance, is almost always going to go first. While it's Attack is higher than it's Special Attack, it's SpA is still usable, and it gets better moves from it, notably a Water STAB and Ice Beam. Physica Lotad has Zen Headbutt and Seed Bomb for attacks, which is eh. A set of Rain Dance / Surf / Giga Drain / Ice Beam can easily be destructive. Luckily, Vulpix has low SpDef and Hippo is weak to all 3 moves. Snover might be a problem, but it is also generally frail and can be hit by neutral Ice Beams. As the strongest, bulkiest, and faster Rain Dance setter, this is definitely the premier Rain Dance Sweeper.

    [​IMG]
    120 / 130 / 128 / 110 / 108 / 95

    Another Swift Swimmer with an interesting type. Again, Surskit is probably better of going special rather than physical, however, Surskit does get a good water STAB in Aqua Jet. Keep in mind that the strongest STAB it has is Bug Bite, and for coverage it has Normal. A special set, however, gets access to some decent options. Surskit has all the coverage, with access to Giga Drain, Ice Beam, Signal Beam, Hydro Pump, and Shadow Ball. It also gets Psybeam and Mud Shot, but they are relatively weak, and Hidden Power is a better choice than them, thus making it preferred to a physical set. Surskit does best vs Snover and Hippo, and can deal with Vulpix relatively well due to it's eh special bulk.


    [​IMG]
    110 / 110 / 120 / 110 / 120 / 96
    Tympole's stats are not as impressive as Lotads, and it's typing isn't as good as his. However, it is more ready to combat other weather starters thanks to it's access to Earth Power and Sludge Wave (hits Vulpix and Snover harder), while having access to Hydro Pump, unlike Lotad. A set of Rain Dance / Hydro Pump / Sludge Wave / Earth Power make Tympole a threat, but it's main goal is to be better at killing weather starters than Lotad or Surskit.

    EDIT: Before I go, here's 2 more threats: Gollett and Machop
    [​IMG]
    101 / 86 / 110 / 125 / 110 / 125
    While only having OK stats, his coverage is straight up amazing. It can run Earth Power, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast. No Guard guaranties that you will hit Focus Blast, but other than that is fairly useless. However, Klutz and Iron Fist are just as useless, so No Guard is the better ability if you are running Focus Blast. However, use Iron Fist so you don't get hit by lower accuracy moves if you are not running one yourself. It gets more coverage, but those 4 are the main useful ones. It can sweep with Rock Polish much like Lando-I. It also gets Stealth Rocks and Gravity, both being neat tricks.

    [​IMG]
    90 / 80 / 110 / 125 / 125 / 125
    Again, it only has OK stats (Machop is actually kind of fragile physically), it's coverage is good enough. It gets Focus Blast, Fire Blast, and a Hidden Power of your choice. It also gets Vaccum Wave for priority, which will mainly be used to beat other priority. No Guard helps Machop more than it does Gollet, and it's other two abilities suck (Atk too low to use Guts, and lolsteadfast). It also gets cute tricks, such as Encore and (for some reason) Light Screen. Work Up is it's only way to boost it's Special Attack though.
  18. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    How has no one mentioned Wynaut yet? So broken

    [​IMG]
    65 / 137 / 112 / 137 / 112 / 137

    This thing is fucking fast! Give it an Eviolite and max out HP and Speed. With such a fast Encore you can easily buy your team-mates free turns. Or switch in on an attack you can take several hits of, Encore them, and proceed to Counter/Mirror Coat.
  19. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    [​IMG]
    140 / 120 / 145 / 125 / 125 / 100

    Omg. Offensively outclassed by its evo as Pikachu has Light Ball access, but it is about the bulkiest mon in this meta, especially factoring in Eviolite.
  20. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    I greatly suggest banning Eviolite in this metagame. Stall will undoubtedly be found out to be the dominant strategy, especially with how bulky Gastly / Shuppet are.

    130 HP / 130 Def / 125 SpD for Gastly
    116 HP / 125 Def / 128 SpD for Shuppet (and a really usable SpA stat in 117, also amazing speed)

    Yeah, have fun breaking through / spinning on those.
  21. DrRobotnik

    DrRobotnik

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    I agree, Eviolite was added to give pre evos a purpose, having them here just makes really good Pokemon OP.

    edit:

    [​IMG]
    130/55/70/135/135/110
    Krabby @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 4 HP, 252 Spa, 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    -Agility
    -Scald
    -Ice Beam
    -AncientPower

    Introducing Krabby, the best Sheer Force user in the metagame, with its monstrous 135 Spattack stat and a movepool that has some useful special SF boosted moves. Along with great bulk (aside from it's physical stat) and excellent pure Water typing, this thing is a threat or something (I suck at closings).

    It already has a good Speed stat but Agility was the only useful boosting move it has. However, after one Agility you can outspeed the majority of the tier, and Krabby can take a hit with its typing and 400 HP, so unless they status you you'll be fine.

    Scald and Ice Beam are the obvious choices, but AncientPower? Yeah, even though it has pretty bad base damage, Rock has great coverage and does the most damage out of the rest of its moves.

    Edit 2: Glailie has not changed at all.
  22. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
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    I third that. There's a reason Giratina/Arceus/Cresselia can't use it. If there was some kind of reverse Eviolite that benefited fully evolved Pokemon it would make some sense. Is there a way to code that? Buff fully evolved defenses?

    As it stands, Eviolite will make stall way OP as not much can break through Abra, Ghastly, Pichu, hell even Sunkern, who is more an offensive threat with Chlorophyll and Solar Power, while holding it.

    Shell Smash helps, but the best Defense a Shell Smasher can have is 75 (Dwebble/Clamperl) and there are a lot of bulky mons that can hit hard on the physical side (see Abra/Ghastly) and no Shell Smashers have super effective STABs for them.

    Main SSers:
    [​IMG] 106 / 82 / 57 / 107 / 115 / 138
    [​IMG] 130 / 95 / 60 / 115 / 135 / 120
    [​IMG] 110 / 95 / 75 / 125 / 125 / 105
    [​IMG] 125 / 96 / 75 / 86 / 105 / 128
    [​IMG] 125 / 120 / 60 / 70 / 105 / 125

    Great stats right?
    +2 252+ SpA DeepSeaTooth Clamperl Surf vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastly: 211-250 (45.47 - 53.87%) -- 43.75% chance to 2HKO
    (A super-effective Hidden Power does a smidgen less)
  23. Codraroll

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    Okay, looks like everybody who has commented on it agrees that Eviolite should be tweaked to only work with evolved Pokémon (if not banned outright, though I don't think that would be necessary if tweaking is possible). Everybody fine with that?

    Also, to spark some discussion: Which evolved Pokémon could then benefit from Eviolite? A clear candidate that stands out to me, is Jigglypuff. Stat-wise, it's the strongest evolved Pokémon bar Metapod/Kakuna/Cascoon/Silcoon (never thought you'd see that sentence used seriously on Smogon, did you?), but has a much better movepool. With moves such as Heal Bell, Fake Tears, Charm, Toxic, Covet, Light Screen and Wish, it can be a great supporting 'mon. It lacks reliable instant recovery, but Pain Split does the job in a pinch. Its offenses aren't much to write home about, but it's blazingly fast - base 140 Speed.

    Next in line, measured by BST, come powerhouses like Kirlia (Great physical Attack and Defense, and good HP to boot), Pikachu (which frankly does things better with Light Ball), and a great tie between Skiploom, Lombre, Staravia, Vibrava and Nuzleaf. Of all those, the latter seems to be the most suited for Eviolite usage, with base 120 defenses (though, a terrible base HP of 90).
  24. Blizzard

    Blizzard @ NeverMeltIce
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    i did mention this before, and i will say this again. the most weak ones right now seem to be the fully evolved pokemon. if only fully evolved pokemon get eviolite, i think that would be fine. pokemon like jigglypuff, kirlia, etc, could do without eviolite. the LC pokemon, are perfect without eviolite. what do you guys have to say?
  25. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    After the next restart this metagame will be available in my server :) Fun idea, NFEs are too powerful lol

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