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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.
So your purpose of this post was....?? Torn-T is in Ubers anyway.
It needs life orb badly. Cant even ko lucario with aura sphere without it. Also the Rash nature which makes it slower and reduces its sp def doesnt help it either. All these calcs are either showing how much it needs life orb or are just pointless. Also how are you going to hit ninetales and hippowdon under rain? If theyre switching in they will change the weather. Sorry but raikou needs to sacrifice itself too much to have a niche in OU, to the point where its not worth it.
I tried Raikou on a rain team, it actually does decent vs Sun teams because Heatran hates Aura Sphere.
Raikou should be C-rank because it has a good movepool, decent stats and has good bulk too.
Weather Ball makes it a versatile pokemon that adapts to the conditions(100 BP and boosted by whatever weather hits hard).
252+ SpA Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 94.32 - 111.34%
What are you talking about? That's an almost guaranteed OHKO after SR, and Lucario isn't even the top fighting type to beat in the metagame. These calcs are all without Life Orb too, I'm sure it's an OHKO with it.
Your argument against Ninetails and Hippodown aren't in the least bit relevant, there's a reason teammates exist. Keldeo and Starmie both take care of them no problem. I can hit them under rain if they switch in, I switch in Politoed, then switch in Raikou. Easy enough to do with Raikou's bulk. What do you mean by sacrificing yourself to have a niche? That's not even a niche, and how is Raikou sacrificing itself? Lastly, all of these calcs are showing Raikou's unboosted power. With his bulk, you're pretty much guaranteed to get off a Calm Mind if you choose to run CM, I usually prefer to use Life Orb or Choice Specs. Raikou is faster than Thundurus-T and more powerful than Jolteon. He's the perfect in-between Pokemon, who definitely deserves to be ranked.
do you have a logic?
None of your reasoning makes any sense. Your calcs go against your argument, and so do your posts. Raikou is outclassed by thundurus-t and jolteon completely. D rank would work but that's it.
That's why he said it needs life orb to [secure] the ko.
I would love to see either starmie or keldeo take on ninetales and cause any damage. Really. And they can take on hippowdon all day... until it switches to the obligatory celebi/etc.
You switch in politoed, they switch in celebi (or just kill politoed... you are acting as if you can just throw around your weather starter) which walls both toed and raikou.
Actually, it is not faster than thundurus-t... it hits 329, tt is 331. Sorry bro.
Yea with the set he posted it isn't, but I believe he was saying it has the potential to outspeed thund-t since you don't need to fun Aura Sphere, but Aura Sphere is one of the reasons Raikou is cool because it won't miss.
Not to mention that unlike Thundurus-T and Jolteon, Raikou caves to Dugtrio.
I can't see the dog being any higher than D-rank.
The only set I can really see Raikou running in OU that somewhat sets it apart from Jolteon and Thundurus-T, is its Calm Mind set. After a few boosts, Raikou becomes pretty threatening, and can be quite a pain to take out. It has decent coverage with T-bolt / HP Ice / Aura Sphere while also having the possibility of using Weather Ball on a rain or sun team to fire off a powerful base 100 move. Other then that though, I'd MUCH rather be using Nasty Plot Thundurus-T, or Choice Specs/Life Orb Jolteon. Thundurus-T is so much more threatening after a boost, doesn't have to run Rash in order to use a coveraging move, and its movepool isn't nearly as bland. Jolteon is also MUCH faster, while still packing similar power to Raikou anyway. Raikou is okay, but heavily outclassed. D-Rank sounds fine I guess. I really don't see why you'd be using it though.
i'm fine with placing raikou in c-rank for the time being. it's a pokemon with truly great potential that for some reason finds itself not being used much at all in the current metagame. this is puzzling to me. raikou has many things going for it, including its blistering speed that allows it to outpace common pokemon like latios, keldeo, and landorus. it also possesses a movepool that happens to be just enough to allow it to act as a fearsome calm mind sweeper, which seems to be a niche all but forgotten in ou. the coverage provided by thunder(bolt) + hp ice + weather ball is rather good, especially under sun and rain, and one can also opt to use substitute to block status and make it incredibly easy to rack up multiple boosts. raikou may also run an excellent choice set, either as a powerful specs attacker or swift scarf revenge killer. either way, it does the job well, especially with access to volt switch in order to gain momentum. it does have a few noticeable faults, of course, including the lack of more coverage moves and raikou's overall physical frailty (though it's much better than, say, gengar in that regard). however, it it not difficult to recognize its shortcomings and its advantages over other fast special attackers at the same time, and understand that raikou is much more than it is currently made out to be.
those who argue that aura sphere is necessary for raikou to be successful are fooling themselves. raikou is only hindered by the rash nature that accompanies aura sphere's presence, making the cm + 3 attacks or subcm sets much better options.
I would have agreed with this statement in BW1. However, BW2 released so many new offensive threats that are bulky enough to live a +2 Espeed and OHKO in return. This list includes Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Gengar, and Terrakion. While Terrakion and Gengar are OHKO'd by +2 Bullet Punch, it means it has to sacrifice Ice Punch or Crunch, leaving it walled by either Jellicent, Reuniclus, Mew, and bulky Psychic types in general, or Gliscor, Landorus-T, and bulky Ground types in general.
Lucario also has less time to set up than in BW1. Terrakion isn't nearly as Choice Locked as it used to be (setting up on a Scarf Stone Edge), and the Metagame is just to offensive for Lucario to find a set up opportunity. The only common time it can really set up is on Banded Tyranitar, who is often paired with Lucario's best checks, Keldeo and Landorus-I.
Priority is also a problem for Lucario, as Techniloom and Scizor are so popular. Now I know what you're thinking, "Lucario resists Bullet Punch!". You're right, but after taking SR damage, a hit while setting up (say Banded Tyranitars Crunch), and taking a Defence drop after Close Combat (as well as LO recoil), Scizor can revenge it. Banded Dnite also takes a chunk with Espeed, and I haven't even listed lesser used priority users, like Feraligator and Azumarill.
However, there is one set that I feel is underrated in the current metagame. Agility Lucario. Stall is not as common in this current Metagame, so the power behind SD is pointless if you can't OHKO offensive threats. However, Agility Lucario doesn't worry about 4MSS, as it doesn't need to run Extreme Speed anymore. Close Combat OHKO's Keldeo and Terrakion, Ice Punch OHKO's Breloom, Landorus-I, and Garchomp, and Crunch OHKO's Gengar.
Tl;dr. Lucario isn't as good as it used to be. Agility Lucario is good in this metagame. It's a B-rank Pokemon.
I find Porygon2 really out of place in C-Rank. phenomenal bulk w only 1 weakness so its easy to cover for, bulk goes far enough to survive attacks such as Kyurem-B's banded Outrage or Victini's V-Create. has not 1, not 2 but 3 great abilities and can run a variety of sets like Subcover, trick room, agility, boltbeam + HP fire, etc.
flaws: no resistances/immunities besides the uncommon ghost attack and Kazam, Reuniclus and gengar all carry Focus Blast 99% of the time anyway, crippled by toxic.
def should be low b-rank IMO.
I have to stop you there. +2 Extremespeed and Close combat kills Breloom and Scizor repsectively. Agility Lucario? Its no sense using it over a Rock Polish Terrakion. Priority isnt the problem for Lucario at all.
After Stealth rocks? He takes 3% damage, double resisting it.
Rocks doesn't do much in the way of passive damage, but it does do something very important in breaking Focus Sash. Something to think about.
Of course, but more often then not Lucario is almost ALWAYS going to be running Life Orb. Without it, it misses out on important KOs with Close Combat and ES. Skarmory is never OHKOed by a +2 CC after Stealth Rock if Lucario isn't running Life Orb, and Breloom barely survives the +2 Extremespeed.
ShootinStarmie, (how do you quote?) you state that Lucario can set up on Banded TTar, which is often paired with Keldeo and Landorus, but if Lucario switches in on a Crunch, and then SDs, its at +3, and Keldeo and Landorus can no longer beat it, being OHKOd by ESpeed. Sure, you can say Terrakion does that as well, but it lacks strong priority and is still weak to Scizor. So really, Lucario is extremely difficult to revenge, because of +2 priority and its relative ease in setting up.
I have actually constructed a team based on Swords Dance Pass Celebi. BP to Lucario, who gets +2 (potential SD boost), and Crucnch amkes me +3. TTar switches out, while Lucario uses Swords Dance (+5 speed). EVRYTHING WILL DIE.
Even 252 HP/252 Def+ Gliscor is getting 2HKOed by Espeed and Close Combat. Even factoring Intimidate, Landorus Therian has a 12.5 chance to be OHKOed by Close Combat, near guaranteed after Stealth Rock.
The only thing that can reliably beat +5 Lucario is Utility Jellicent, which is 3HKOed by Bullet Punch. Other than that, SD Lucario is extremely good when paired with SDPass Celebi
I would usually not recommend using Justified on Lucario, Inner Focus is a great ability and makes settting up on Jirachi and beating it alot easier and while i tried justified on Lucario i almost never got the boost just because Dark type attacks are pretty rare outside of Pursuit and when i got it i never really needed it anyway.
Oh and you can quote a user by using the quote button that is in the lower right of a post or by using the qute tags that look like this [*QUOTE] [*/QUOTE] minus the *
Inner Focus is far more situational than Justified in my experience. While you mentioned that Jirachi can no longer flinch Luke, it can still paralyze it which hinders it drastically, halving its speed and causing it face the annoying 1/4 dice roll to move which will prevent it from sleeping. I wasn't around during Bw1 so I can't vouch for how good/bad Luke was back then but I think it's a nice late-game sweeper if it gets the chance to get up a SD. Its hidden moveset always leaves you a step behind when you won't know whether or not it'll Crunch your Jellicent or Ice Punch your Dragonite.
Justified is just as situational. The only dark moves you're going to be hit with are Hydregion's Dark Pulse, TTar's Crunch, and maybe Weavile's Night Slash. Hydregion using DP is rare, TTar using Crunch while Lucario is on the opposing team instead of pursuit even more so, and Weavile's not even that common. And even it will be using pursuit more than Night Slash.
+2 Espeed does not KO Scizor. Are you being serious? Yes Close Combat at +2 OHKOs, but like I said Bullet is still doing a butt load, regardless of whether it resists it or not. Terrakion is even weaker to priority than Lucario is, so no, it isn't outclassed. Lucario also has much better coverage than Terrakion, as Lucario can get past bulky Ground type like Glicsor and Garchomp, unlike Terrakion, with Ice Punch.
Also, it doesn't matter if it only takes 3%, it's still taking damage, which is bad for such a frail Pokemon. Also, you haven't provided any argument as to why Lucario should be A rank, or do you agree with me about Lucario being a B rank Pokemon?
Please bare in mind that Lucario is often paired up with Pokemon often weak to Dark type attacks, but Lucario shouldn't be switching into Tyranitar anyway, mainly because banded Crunch still hurts (like 30%? don't quote that), and after 2 Crunches plus a defence drop, Scizor will be able to revenge it with Bullet Punch. This also isn't facotoring in your opponent predicting the Lucario sweep and KOing it with Super Power, and it also isn't factoring any previous damage on Lucario. Lucario should be switching in after Tyranitar has Pursuit trapped something, like Gengar or Latios, forcing the switch, and setting up a Swords Dance at 97% health.
And this has come from experience, not just thoerymoning. I based my first gen 5 team around SD Lucario, which peeked 2nd on the OU ladder on PS. I used it for over a year, and I know how good it is, but I also know Lucario most of the time has shortcomings.
If you've used Lucario as much as I have, you should know that it is much MUCH better than you're giving it credit for, and that it has a very easy time setting up. Also, you are most definitely theorymoning since you aren't actually providing calcs for the damages you're mentioning. Bullet Punch from Scizor does hurt, but it isn't even kind of a way for you to count on beating Lucario, as Banded Bullet Punch does between 38-45% to Lucario, which leaves you with about half health after Rocks and Life Orb. But then what? If you were relying on Scizor to revenge Lucario, then your team can't handle the remaining turns Lucario has to beat you. Plus, lets say you think Lucario is going to SD so you switch into Scizor, but actually it just goes straight for the Close Combat. You just took 72.88 - 85.71%, and Lucario can now guaranteed kill you with a non-boosted Extremespeed (16.03 - 19.24%, which at minimum is 100% assuming Rocks 12%+72%+16%=100%).
Also, the way you talk about using Lucario is, in my opinion, wrong. Lucario shoudl be paired with something like Celebi or Espeon, which can BP as Tyranitar/Scizor Pursuits, thus giving him the +1 boost from Justified, and another from Swords Dance or simply attack the switchin with an insanely powerful Close Combat at +2 (or even at +0 assuming you didn't BP in Lucario). Honestly, everyone should be using the Bullet Punch+Extremespeed set, in my opinion. It demolishes offensive teams as seen in this battle I always show people when they doubt Lucario. That is how you're supposed to sweep with Lucario. I'm not even sure where I want Lucario, as I can see him easily being B+ or A-, but I just want to make sure people understand how amazing he is in practice.
Yeah honestly anyone who doubts the effectiveness of SD Lucario in this metagame has obviously never used it. It's absolutely insane at +2, KOing pretty much everything that doesn't resist CC, and sometimes KOing things that do resist it. Extremespeed can also net some important KOs in Breloom, Tornadus, Thundurus-T, Starmie, Tornadus, Volcarona, and Scarfed Salamence after Stealth Rock. The list could go on, but other then Salamence, all of those KOs are achieved without rocks, and by E-Speed, which has higher priority then Mach Punch, Ice Shard, and Bullet Punch. Once Luc sets up, it's really hard to stop it from pretty much just mopping the floor with your team. 4th moveslot syndrome sucks, but you can tailor its moveset to best fit your needs.
Like I said earlier, SDPass SpD Celebi can boost and BP to Lucario on predicted Crunch or Pursuti. Bam Lucario at +3. Ttar will be forced out in fear of CC so Lucario can SD AGAIN. +5 Attack now. Everything will scream in fear. +5 Bullet Punch and Extremespeed 2HKOs even the bulkiest physical walls. For example, the Offensive Pivot Lando-T is 2HKOed by Espeed and is basically in KO range for any attack if its hit by CC (factoring in intimidate, making +5 Lucario +4).
Lucario i see as the the greatest threat in B+ rank or the lowest of A-.
I never said that Scizor is the only way in beating Lucario, nor did I say it was a counter (seriously, who switches Scizor into a Lucario?), I said that priority really hurts Lucario, and if you really want me to prove that will calcs, so be it. You say Lucario should be paired up with Espeon or Celebi so that they can Baton Pass into Lucario, but if they've figured out that Celebi has Baton Pass (which is often, since it's used early game for gaining momentum), then your opponent is never going to use Pursuit on Celebi. So you Baton Pass into Lucario and take SR damage (97%), you take a Crunch from Tyranitar (70%). Now you either OHKO the Tyranitar, or set up a Swords Dance. Regardless of what you do, Scizor is going to be able to come in and revenge you.
"252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 4HP/0Def Lucario (Neutral): 25% - 30% (73 - 87 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO."
"252Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk)Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def -1 Lucario (Neutral): 38% - 45% (108 - 128 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO."
But hey, I know this is very situational, and I know that not every team carries Scizor and Tyranitar (most do in this stale metagame, lol), but then where else does Lucario find a place to set up? I guess on -2 Lati@s? It's set up options are very limited in this metagame, and even if it does get to +2, Lucario often has it's sweep cut short by bulky Pokemon that outspeed him (I already listed loads in my original post, but for the sake of it...) Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Scizor, Gengar, and Terrakion. And please don't give me that bullshit about Bullet Punch, just go read my original post.
Also Gary, please read my original post, I list multiple Pokemon that can stop a +2 Lucario sweep.