Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Punchshroom]

Well, this is the problem.
Everybody says it is outclassed by something or the other, because "there are better sweepers in each category".
But with a lot of those sweepers, your opponent has a fair idea of what you might be running(for instance, Terrakion is almost guaranteed to have Close Combat and Stone Edge) .
Jack-of-all-trades, Master of none is a cliche. In reality, balance across everything is key to success. An imbalanced pokemon with VERY high attack but bad other stats like Rampardos for instance doesn't do well at all. Similarly, Shuckle may have some of the best defenses in the game but with a lack of balance, it can't do well at all. Mew has balance. Agreed, there are better SD sweepers. Agreed, there are better Nasty Plot sweepers. But which mon apart from Mew can claim to have access to both, meaning your opponent has no clue what to actually use against it. Special Walls fear the SD set, while vice versa for physical walls. You can't even status Mew because you get statused as well and Mew can always Heal Bell itself. Mew can actually do well on many teams because it can give SO much coverage that your opponent has no idea what he can ACTUALLY switch into it.
Well, I've been nominating it for A-, because despite everybody calling it a jack-of-trades, it is a serious threat to sweepers who have no idea what to hit it with, making it a GREAT late-game cleaner

Gonna have to talk about this one. Balance is nice, but specialization is arguably more important in the OU metagame. Stuff like Breloom, Volcarona, and Terrakion may be somewhat predictable, but it doesn't necessarily make them less efficient in their roles. Mew may be able to perform many roles but it doesn't excel in one particularly well enough to be considered over another potential user. I believe this very lack of specialization is the main reason Virizion is sitting pretty in UU despite it being great against Rain.

Jirachi is Mew's biggest competitor in the supporting role. While Mew has better recovery, Jirachi has much more resists in Dragon, Ice, Rock....and less weaknesses, one of which is reduced in Rain, all of which are important advantages over Mew. To top it off Jirachi can Wish pass as well. Celebi gives Mew a run for its money as well, sharing Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Recover and status deterent (virtual immunity for that matter), while packing excellent resists in Water, Electric and Ground.

Offensive Mew may be able to pull off a sweep due to surprise value, but keep in mind that since people have been arguing that Alakazam's STAB isn't strong enough to finish numerous targets, consider that Mew's average 100 base Sp.Atk means it pretty much has to boost so that it can hit hard enough, and doesn't get cool STAB Giga Drain like Celebi does. Physical sets are even worse off due its STAB being even weaker and inaccurate, just that it has cooler coverage moves in priority Sucker Punch and healing Drain Punch, but this isn't really what you're looking for in Mew.

This may or may not come as a surprise to you, but Mew's biggest crutch is its typing. Think about it, weaknesses to Bug and Dark are painful due to Scizor and Tyranitar's omnipresence (the only relevant Ghost attacker is Gengar who doesn't OHKO, but does outspeed), while it resists just Fighting and Psychic, which essentially just translates to just one resist since Psychic offense is hardly relevant in a metagame where 2 of the best Pursuit trappers reside. The main Fighting types in Keldeo and Terrakion can lay the beat down on offensive Mews with their other STAB while outspeeding it, meaning a direct switch-in isn't really safe, while defensive Mews compete with the likes of Jellicent, Celebi or even Reuniclus to combat these threats.

Mew may be a jack of all trades, but the "master of none" part is really prominent when it faces a lot of competition in OU. Top or Mid B Rank from me.

 

[Lavos]

there's a simple one-liner i like to use in this sort of situation:

"mew can do everything better than anything, but can't do anything better than everything"

keep it b, or b+ if you guys really have your hearts set on it

 

[Sylveon]

The problem with Mew is that god awful typing. Other Psychics like Alakazam and Reuniclus atleast have high Special Attack and Magic Guard to make up for it while other Psychic's like Celebi and Jirachi have a second typing which grant them a lot of useful resistances. I've used Mew in the past and it has been really underwhelming even the Nasty Plot set didn't do much because of scarfers or faster Pokemon everywhere and not having enough power to OHKO some Pokemon even at +2. I guess unpredictability is cool but say if you face your opponent twice on Showdown or PO they will know what set you're running and Mew will become much easier to handle. It's not the same like other Pokemon such as Kyurem-B or Breloom who even if your opponent know it's set it doesn't mean it will be easy to handle. It's not all bad news for Mew because it's a great Stealth Rock lead and much better than Azelf imo also a good Pokemon on BP teams.

And I'd like to propose Victini for B rank. This little guy is underrated I don't even know why Mew is in a higher rank, Victini should be higher than Mew. Victini hits like a truck and has quite a couple of sets it can do effectively which means you never know if it's running Final Gambit, Scarfed, Band or Mixed and even Trick Room sun. Choice Banded V-create from Victini actually hits harder than Outrage from Choice Banded Kyurem-B and that's not even taking sun into account. Nothing can safely wall it water types have to watch out for Bolt Strike and Tyranitar/Heatran for Brick Break. Victini doesn't require any set up turns to destroy things. Victini for B rank. That Psychic typing sucks but a 180 based power move, Final Gambit, Bolt Strike more than make up for it.

 

[Alien]

I feel like trying to use Mew as a sweeper isn't going with its most prominent role. There are much better pokemon that can sweep while being bulky, usually due to better typing or coverage. However, as a defensive wall, while Mew's psychic typing is a liability to U-turn and Pursuit, it can still be very strong. For example, Mew only takes 25-30% from 252 Atk TTar pursuit, and only 39-47% from banded Scizor. In return, Mew burns both with will-o-wisp. In addition, Mew is only taking 49-58% from 252 Atk TTar Crunch (41-49 from bulky TTar). The two main problems awaiting Mew are banded Scizor U-turn, dealing 68-81% and banded TTar Crunch, dealing 80-95%.

This leaves Mew with two major problems. The former being less greedy Scizor and the latter being banded TTar. However, banded TTar set on crunch is setup fodder for things like Lucario, Conkeldurr and Bulk Up Toxicroak. It's also easy to revenge kill. Dealing with Scizor's U-turn is something Mew can't handle that well, but no pokemon can handle everything.

Mew's pure psychic typing can be a liability, but at the same time a boon, as it's not weak to anything but Ghost, Dark and Bug. Ghost is a rare attacking type, usually only seen on something like Gengar and Alakazam (Which are pretty rare sights themselves), and we've already covered the main dark and bug type moves Mew is scared of. Unlike Jirachi, Mew can survive banded Outrage (53-63%) AND banded EQ (45-52%) from banded Garchomp, burning in return. It survives +1 LO Salamence's outrage (71-84) and EQ (39-47) and burns. The general trend with Mew is that it has very high survivability because so many pokemon are carrying a wide variety of coverage moves that at least one of them is bound to be super effective. Mew has the benefit of high bulkiness and a neutrality to ALL the moves in a lot of sweeper sets.

Mew also handles defensive threats very well because of access to taunt and softboiled. Toxic/Sub/Protect/EQ gliscor does very little to defensive Mew, and other walls also have a hard time getting past Mew's combination of defenses and recovery.

I feel like Mew is a very strong pokemon when played as a physical wall, and is a very good pokemon to look at when considering a defensive core.

 

[vyomov]

Well, either way B+ seems reasonable to me, although I must say Alien, I tested your theory of a defensive mew with Volt Switch on a rain team and it formed a good defensive core with Scizor :)

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Mew's pure psychic typing can be a liability, but at the same time a boon, as it's not weak to anything but Ghost, Dark and Bug. Ghost is a rare attacking type, usually only seen on something like Gengar and Alakazam (Which are pretty rare sights themselves)

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       | 
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | 1    | Scizor             | 23.08087% | 240933 | 17.559% | 192134 | 17.383% | 
 | 2    | Politoed           | 19.57211% | 205734 | 14.994% | 188751 | 17.077% | 
 | 3    | Ferrothorn         | 19.45857% | 236651 | 17.247% | 204301 | 18.484% | 
 | 4    | Dragonite          | 16.48836% | 218803 | 15.946% | 170650 | 15.439% | 
 | 5    | Jirachi            | 16.20100% | 158832 | 11.576% | 130700 | 11.825% | 
 | 6    | Heatran            | 15.85986% | 164186 | 11.966% | 134852 | 12.201% | 
 | 7    | Tyranitar          | 15.35557% | 166524 | 12.136% | 142925 | 12.931% | 
 | 8    | Breloom            | 14.05700% | 166299 | 12.120% | 132668 | 12.003% | 
 | 9    | Rotom-Wash         | 13.81740% | 123909 |  9.030% | 107619 |  9.737% | 
 | 10   | Latios             | 13.75761% | 133067 |  9.698% | 104359 |  9.442% | 
 | 11   | Starmie            | 13.34829% | 150402 | 10.961% | 117636 | 10.643% | 
 | 12   | Keldeo             | 12.92283% | 108597 |  7.914% | 84037  |  7.603% | 
 | 13   | Garchomp           | 12.56496% | 158622 | 11.560% | 124457 | 11.260% | 
 | 14   | Terrakion          | 12.55253% | 112545 |  8.202% | 84768  |  7.669% | 
 | 15   | Celebi             | 10.71112% | 98813  |  7.201% | 81129  |  7.340% | 
 | 16   | Forretress         | 10.43795% | 124738 |  9.091% | 108074 |  9.778% | 
 | 17   | Alakazam           | 10.11065% | 144512 | 10.532% | 110026 |  9.955% | 
 | 18   | Landorus-Therian   | 10.04252% | 75977  |  5.537% | 66084  |  5.979% | 
 | 19   | Gengar             |  9.95701% | 164549 | 11.992% | 129434 | 11.710% |

As you can see Gengar and Alakazam are very common.
Several other pokemon in that list often carry U-Turn and/or Pursuit.
Mew's lack of resistances also means that most of these pokemon have no trouble 2HKOing it at worst, regardless of its defensive spread.

 

[ciaranroy]

Well, this is the problem.
Everybody says it is outclassed by something or the other, because "there are better sweepers in each category".
But with a lot of those sweepers, your opponent has a fair idea of what you might be running(for instance, Terrakion is almost guaranteed to have Close Combat and Stone Edge) .
Jack-of-all-trades, Master of none is a cliche. In reality, balance across everything is key to success. An imbalanced pokemon with VERY high attack but bad other stats like Rampardos for instance doesn't do well at all. Similarly, Shuckle may have some of the best defenses in the game but with a lack of balance, it can't do well at all. Mew has balance. Agreed, there are better SD sweepers. Agreed, there are better Nasty Plot sweepers. But which mon apart from Mew can claim to have access to both, meaning your opponent has no clue what to actually use against it. Special Walls fear the SD set, while vice versa for physical walls. You can't even status Mew because you get statused as well and Mew can always Heal Bell itself. Mew can actually do well on many teams because it can give SO much coverage that your opponent has no idea what he can ACTUALLY switch into it.
Well, I've been nominating it for A-, because despite everybody calling it a jack-of-trades, it is a serious threat to sweepers who have no idea what to hit it with, making it a GREAT late-game cleaner

Lucario has access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, is a far better late-game cleaner and has a much better typing. Sure, you can say Mew has great bulk, but so do Jirachi and Celebi. There really is no reason to use it in a specialized role when everything else outclasses it. You say physical walls fear the NP set: surely physical wall Mew also fears special attackers? And you say balance is key; just look at Breloom. Breloom's Attack stat is 50 higher than its next stat. Stats aren't everything. Breloom has two great abilities and a perfect movepool to fit them. Hell, Mew is outclassed as a mixed wall by Umbreon, who has the same ability and greater bulk. How can it expect to wall the likes of Scizor, Landorus, Keldeo and Terrakion when they can just blast through it? It's offensive sets are better, but honestly, just use Terrakion, Keldeo, Landorus, Thundurus-T, or anything else with better STABs and better offensive stats.

 

[Smilodon]

I know Mew is not perfect, and proposing S or top A rank seems pretty greedy.

However, I really agree about the fact that Mew's versatility can be used for a crucial role. I'm surprised nobody used the world "lure". For example, I had a baton pass team that suffered a lot from sand, especailly when packing Tyranitar and Scizor (Espeon hate both of them). So I packed a Mew with BP, BU, Drain Punch and the odd Flame Charge.

It functions really well (even if it's more difficult when the opponent knows your team, but he stil works), BU on a predicted switch, Oko non chopple berry T-tar (or can take a hit if it's a really bulky one), and then oko incoming Scizor (even if bulky versions have a really slight chance to survive at full health). I often get at +2 against T-Tar instead, and then I can procede to sweep a huge part of the team, or BP +2 att, def and +1 speed to something that will do a good job. Can even be used on other team than full BP.

That's a defensive version, but put Sword Dance instead of Bulk up, and Sucker Punch to frighten Latios and Gengar, and you have a really tricky sweeper. The main advantage is that you can keep it until the opponent counter is dead.
Will he keep Blissey to counter specially offensive ? Sub Toxik Gliscor that check physical lacking Ice Punch ? Spec Latios that can revenge kill many weakened Mew but will take a bunch of damage from Sucker Punch ?

For example, the physical Mew I described can clean the way for a Latios late game sweep, as Latios will love something that attracts and kills T-Tar, Scizor or Blissey.

That being said, I wouldn't put it in top ranks, because it's actually hard to fit in a team. The nice point is that it's a niche pokemon, but with an amazing number of usable niches.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I know Mew is not perfect, and proposing S or top A rank seems pretty greedy.

However, I really agree about the fact that Mew's versatility can be used for a crucial role. I'm surprised nobody used the world "lure". For example, I had a baton pass team that suffered a lot from sand, especailly when packing Tyranitar and Scizor (Espeon hate both of them). So I packed a Mew with BP, BU, Drain Punch and the odd Flame Charge.

It functions really well (even if it's more difficult when the opponent knows your team, but he stil works), BU on a predicted switch, Oko non chopple berry T-tar (or can take a hit if it's a really bulky one), and then oko incoming Scizor (even if bulky versions have a really slight chance to survive at full health). I often get at +2 against T-Tar instead, and then I can procede to sweep a huge part of the team, or BP +2 att, def and +1 speed to something that will do a good job. Can even be used on other team than full BP.

That's a defensive version, but put Sword Dance instead of Bulk up, and Sucker Punch to frighten Latios and Gengar, and you have a really tricky sweeper. The main advantage is that you can keep it until the opponent counter is dead.
Will he keep Blissey to counter specially offensive ? Sub Toxik Gliscor that check physical lacking Ice Punch ? Spec Latios that can revenge kill many weakened Mew but will take a bunch of damage from Sucker Punch ?

For example, the physical Mew I described can clean the way for a Latios late game sweep, as Latios will love something that attracts and kills T-Tar, Scizor or Blissey.

That being said, I wouldn't put it in top ranks, because it's actually hard to fit in a team. The nice point is that it's a niche pokemon, but with an amazing number of usable niches.

Mew is too weak to sweep without a boost and Sucker Punch is a well, sucky priority move. At least some of the weaker physical sweepers like Lucario and Toxicroak have awesome typing and find it easy to set up, or have better priority moves. Or they can be ABSURDLY bulky and can wall the top fighting types in BW OU, Terrakion and Keldeo, and 2HKO (at worst) both of them and recover health with Drain Pawnch.

Mew has many niches, but it's outclassed and its weak offensively and defensively. Celebi and Jirachi have better typing, and Victini has one of the most powerful fire type attacks in the game.

 

[Takion]

I personally use:

Sucker Punch/Drain Punch/Swords Dance/Flamethrower (or Fire punch)

What would be Mew's counters: Tyranitar, Latis, Celebi are all taken care off.

Too each there own though, Ive still have a lot of testing to do.

 

[Alien]

I personally use:

Sucker Punch/Drain Punch/Swords Dance/Flamethrower (or Fire punch)

What would be Mew's counters: Tyranitar, Latis, Celebi are all taken care off.

Too each there own though, Ive still have a lot of testing to do.

But then you're literally using mew just to counter its own counters.

Which is silly :(

I think that a team that is running mew should be able to deal with those counters in other ways, while using mew as a counter to heavy physical attackers.

 

[vyomov]

I'd like opinions on Bisharp in C-rank

Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

I think Bisharp fits this better than the description for D-rank. Bisharp has base 125 Attack and with STAB Sucker Punch, Bisharp is hitting a LOT of OU for good damage.
Agreed, it's got a 4x weakness to fighting, but that's what teammates are for - an excellent example in the same rank being Cresselia, who can sponge fighting attacks all day long without an issue.
Bisharp also has a base 100 Defense, meaning it can tank a hit on the physical side and sweep back.
With a Swords Dance boost, Bisharp can proceed to murder anything even neutral to Sucker Punch.
Speaking of Dark-types..
Weavile for B+
Honestly, Weavile is underestimated in the current metagame and can actually clean up LOADS of the tier. For starters, it outspeeds almost the entire tier save gimmicks like Ninjask who have NO business in OU.
With an AMAZING attack and two great STABs, Weavile does LOADS of damage. With the proliferation of Dragon-types in the tier, Weavile can stop a lot of them cold, like Latios, Latias, Garchomp, Hydreigon and Salamence.
While it certainly cannot be above B because of weakness to priority and SR, B+ seems fit for Weavile
Mienshao in B+
Mienshao is actually REALLY underestimated as a fighting-type. Mienshao has amazing speed, outspeeding a LOT of the tier. Reckless Hi Jump Kick hits like a truck and there simply aren't enough viable Ghosts in OU to stop it. Mienshao also has a great ability in Regenerator, allowing it to spam LO for 3 turns and switch out. He also has U-Turn, making him a great scout especially vs Scarf users(the Choice Scarf Mienshao is a BEAST).

So what do you think?

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'd like opinions on Bisharp in C-rank

I think Bisharp fits this better than the description for D-rank. Bisharp has base 125 Attack and with STAB Sucker Punch, Bisharp is hitting a LOT of OU for good damage.
Agreed, it's got a 4x weakness to fighting, but that's what teammates are for - an excellent example in the same rank being Cresselia, who can sponge fighting attacks all day long without an issue.
Bisharp also has a base 100 Defense, meaning it can tank a hit on the physical side and sweep back.
With a Swords Dance boost, Bisharp can proceed to murder anything even neutral to Sucker Punch.

"Bisharp use Sucker Punch!

The move failed!"

Sucky Punch can be stalled out, and Bisharp cant do anything once 8 PP is depleted. Plus fighting, ground, and fire weaknesses are pretty significant.

Speaking of Dark-types..
Weavile for B+
Honestly, Weavile is underestimated in the current metagame and can actually clean up LOADS of the tier. For starters, it outspeeds almost the entire tier save gimmicks like Ninjask who have NO business in OU.
With an AMAZING attack and two great STABs, Weavile does LOADS of damage. With the proliferation of Dragon-types in the tier, Weavile can stop a lot of them cold, like Latios, Latias, Garchomp, Hydreigon and Salamence.
While it certainly cannot be above B because of weakness to priority and SR, B+ seems fit for Weavile

AGREED, but 120 attack is not that amazing and it is litteraly always forced out by Scizor, who is king of OU.

Mienshao in B+
Mienshao is actually REALLY underestimated as a fighting-type. Mienshao has amazing speed, outspeeding a LOT of the tier. Reckless Hi Jump Kick hits like a truck and there simply aren't enough viable Ghosts in OU to stop it. Mienshao also has a great ability in Regenerator, allowing it to spam LO for 3 turns and switch out. He also has U-Turn, making him a great scout especially vs Scarf users(the Choice Scarf Mienshao is a BEAST).

Lol amazing speed. Lol not enough viable ghosts. But I agree it belongs in B-Rank.

So what do you think?

 

[TUO]

I just wanna make this quick on why Weavile should not be B+ Tier.

First of all, I just wanna mention that I was the first one who brought up Weavile up from C, so I have no bias when it comes to how well Weavile actually performs. However, he is far from a true staple in the tier that is the home to Pokemon in B+. We all know Weavile has competition with two Pokemon, Mamoswine and Tyranitar. They both do well either in eliminating Dragons or Pursuit trapping Latios to pave a way for Keldeo/Landorus to sweep, but are both bulkier and powerful while even in Tyranitar's case, can help against weather. Weavile also struggles against a good chunk of Pokemon and is can be easily hard walled. It also has a serious lack in power for it to tackle some foes. Although he does have solid coverage, he is far from a formidable sweeper as you look at it and all you said was he had high attack and could revenge dragons. This makes him easily walled by some Pokemon and Weavile will only sweep certain team archetypes even with a lot of support. Weavile is a Pokemon that is good only because it has a defined niche and can help certain teams, which is pretty much the non-existent description of B-.

Also about your argument on Bisharp for C-Rank, it was rejected by QC for a reason (at least iirc). It is easily walled by a good deal of OU pokemon and while it looks solid on paper, does not really work in practice as it has trouble when it comes to finding room to shine against SD Scizor, as well as Fighting and Ground-type moves make up a majority of OU. It's basically a Scizor that has slightly better sweeping potential and kills Latios better, while trading off being worse at nearly everything else. It also doesn't really grant you a much better team matchup against common team archetypes, which is a very important thing to hold in BW2 OU.

A few side notes, please stop calling Scizor the king of OU, it really isn't at this point regardless of what the usage stats say. Also, I would recommend you look a lot more on how it fares against the metagame when you deliver judgement.

Sorry if my thoughts were kinda messy, I really hurried this up and might edit this to become more formal and such.

@below, I also semi-agree with ThunderBlunder because I had some question in how these posts were truly thought out. I would love to show you a few logs with Weavile once i start actually taking logs, I use it a lot

 

[vyomov]

Firstly, I do agree with you to a certain extent, but these are my takes on the points you make.

"Bisharp use Sucker Punch!

The move failed!"

Sucky Punch can be stalled out, and Bisharp cant do anything once 8 PP is depleted. Plus fighting, ground, and fire weaknesses are pretty significant

That logic is faulty for a simple reason: it's not like that's the only move Bisharp has.
For instance, any pokemon thinking they can set up JUST because Sucker Punch will fail will be screwed by Night Slash.
Even better, Bisharp can set up to +2 and then that opponent is in a dilemma: attack and risk getting suckered or switch out and risk getting hit on the switch.
Bisharp is literally double-edged: it runs both ways which makes mind-games with this mon all the better.

AGREED, but 120 attack is not that amazing and it is litteraly always forced out by Scizor, who is king of OU.

Not that amazing? Yes it is, especially when combined with ... 125 Speed. I agree, Scizor is an issue, which is why we have teammates (it's not one-on-one)

Lol amazing speed. Lol not enough viable ghosts

- Amazing speed: 105 speed is quite good actually, out-speeding Jirachi, Celebi, Landorus Garchomp and Volcarona amongst other mons of note.
- Viability of ghosts: Well, the only VIABLE ones are:
Chandelure(beaten by Stone Edge barring the rare miss, and even that's STRETCHING things a bit)
- Jellicent(walls it to a certain extent but Mien can always use U-turn to get in a Jellicent basher like Jolteon)
- Gengar(Gengar is frail as hell, meaning Mien can always switch out to a special wall and beat it up then and there. Speaking of Gengar, Weavile smashes Gengar to pieces so Mienshao can Hi Jump everybody later)

Nevertheless, I agree on Weavile staying B(although believe B is better than B- where it currently is and it's not stretching imagination too much to say Weavile should be B+) but still am not convinced re Bisharp and Mienshao.

Edit: Yes, below 108 isn't ideal for Scarfers, but Jirachi and Mienshao have 2 completely different roles. Mienshao is a physical attacker(beast with 125 attack that Jirachi can't match) but is high risk high reward whereas Jirachi is a decently bulky pokemon with good typing and AMAZING movepool that is low risk medium reward) . This is why Jirachi is higher than Mienshao because the reward:risk ratio is safer for Jirachi whereas Mienshao has much higher risk. Having said that, those who use Mienshao properly can obtain a higher reward which is why I believe it should be B+. I'm not saying Mienshao is better(that would be dumb considering his HORRIBLE defenses) but the fact that it can give VERY high rewards puts it at B+ for me.
I do agree with your point about the speed though, but note that non-Scarf Terrakion is beaten by Mienshao and is more common than Scarf Terrakion(simply because of the variants, CB, SD, etc)

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't want to call you out, but some of the arguments you make are just so damn stupid and not backed up. Especially the Mienshao one

"Lol not enough speed, Lol not enough viable ghosts."


I've found Mienshao to be a really good scarfer in this new meta. Base 105 speed isn't really bad at all since the only really used scarfers that are faster than it are Keldeo, Terrakion, and Latios. It's lack of bulk can be an issue but I guess teammates are there for a reason. Mienshao also doesn't need base 108 speed because it makes up for it in immensely powerful HJK and U-turn which is literally so damn good on it when you keep in mind what likes to switch in. It baits in walls like Jellicent / Skarmory / Hippowdown / Amoonguss etc which makes it the perfect partner for Gothitelle. Pairing these two together makes games go by pretty quick as it is just a rinse and repeat process of predicting the switch and trapping. If you want to use a core like this, you should probably use something to aid the core that enjoys the removal of these things like Sharpedo or SD Scizor. On the topic of "lol not enough viable ghosts" can you please tell me what ghost you would use besides Gengar or Jellicent. Chandelure is so niche that it really is only used on like Sun HO and even then it's not that good. Don't even bring up shit like Golurk that no one uses because it literally is only used on Hail stall. Jellicent is indeed a true counter but Gengar can just get smacked by a stone edge or U-turned on the obvious switch into a check / counter.

Now on evaluating what rank to put it under, I think it should be bumped back up to B Rank. It really is a great pokemon with not really a "niche role."

I also want to ask about the whole "Make Weavile B / A rank. Weavile used to be C but is now climbing its way up. I never really saw it as much of a threat and when I tried it, it did jack shit. Can someone supply a log of Weavile doing work because the last game I saw where it did anything was a OST Match. I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm really curious to see how people play it or how it is used so that it is considered to be a "high quality" Pokemon.

Ok time to back my arguments up sorry about that, I was on my phone.

As for not enough speed, generally running a scarfer with less than 108 speed is a liability, considering Terrakion and Keldeo are so prevalent as scarfers. The reason why people still run ScarfChomp and ScarfRachi is because they are unbelievably bulky and (in Jirachi's case) have excellent resists. Also, (particularly in Garchomp's case) they pack more than just a punch. Mienshao is "slow" by scarf standards and isnt bulky enough to take a hit and strike back. Sure RegeniU-Turn is awesome, but Jirachi can U-Turn as well (at the cost of no Regenerator)but makes up for it with better typing, bulk, an immunity, a pretty good ability, and a VERY large offensive movepool (Jirachi can get freaking Draco Meteor LOL). Mienshao's only rares move is Aura Sphere and HJK, and HJK can be a pain in the ass if it misses. This is the reason why ScarfLatios has gotten popular. It beats Terrakion and Keldeo by outspeeding them AND it can also outspeed Modest Venusaur in the sun. Mienshao fails to do that.

As for not enough viable ghosts, Jellicent and Gengar are more than just viable ghosts. Gengar is a top notch offensive threat, with the ability to absolutely SLAUGHTER the Lati Twins (esp. Latios) with Shadow Ball, and Jellicent is probably the greatest support mon ever introduced into OU, or at least on par with Ferrothorn. Both of these can 2HKO Mienshao at worst, or burn it with Will-O-wisp and cripple Mienshao. As for Gothitelle, Gengar can wreck non scarf variants and SpD Jellicent can easily stall out even SpecsGothitelle.

Also with a slow rise of popularity of SpD Celebi Baton Passing to SD Lucario (considering it sets up EASY against BandTar), priority moves are an issue for Mienshao.

Mienshao should get bumped up back to B, but B+ I think may be pushing it.

As for Weavile in A rank, NO, but B+ would be an excellent fit. Why do I think this? It gains STAB on the arguably most prevalent moves in OU. Ice Shard and Pursuit. Weavile can revenge most dragons, OHKO Dragonite thru Multiscale with Ice Punch, beat the Genies, Pursuit trap Celebi, kill Heatran, defeat non scarf Heatran, defeat non scarf Terrakion, defeat Lati-Twins (checkmates them with IcePunch/Night Slash or Pursuit), defeat Gliscor, and kill Mamoswine, the prime check of many sweepers with Low Kick. While it maybe frail as heck and is forced out by Scizor, these pros are more than enough to make up for it. In my opinion, Weavile is the perfect partner for Sheer Force Landorus, killing Mamoswine, Celebi, Lati-Twins, Garchomp, and Gengar, Lando-I's prime checks. I have a team called Fertile Lands (its in the OU RMT section posted it about a month ago) and Weavile was originally Mamoswine, but Mamo can't do jack versus Latias. Weavile can do more than jack to Latias. It can OHKO it after SR. It can beat Mamoswine w/ Low Kick (Lando's top offensive check). All the thing sI mentioned Weavile can do and does so FANTASTICALLY. Once these obstacles are clear, RP and Lando sweeps thru teams.

I might edit this and post a replay but just view Fertile Lands and you should be able to understand what I'm saying.

 

[victinivcreate1]

That logic is faulty for a simple reason: it's not like that's the only move Bisharp has.
For instance, any pokemon thinking they can set up JUST because Sucker Punch will fail will be screwed by Night Slash.
Even better, Bisharp can set up to +2 and then that opponent is in a dilemma: attack and risk getting suckered or switch out and risk getting hit on the switch.
Bisharp is literally double-edged: it runs both ways which makes mind-games with this mon all the better.

Not that amazing? Yes it is, especially when combined with ... 125 Speed. I agree, Scizor is an issue, which is why we have teammates (it's not one-on-one)

- Amazing speed: 105 speed is quite good actually, out-speeding Jirachi, Celebi, Landorus Garchomp and Volcarona amongst other mons of note.
- Viability of ghosts: Well, the only VIABLE ones are:
Chandelure(beaten by Stone Edge barring the rare miss, and even that's STRETCHING things a bit)
- Jellicent(walls it to a certain extent but Mien can always use U-turn to get in a Jellicent basher like Jolteon)
- Gengar(Gengar is frail as hell, meaning Mien can always switch out to a special wall and beat it up then and there. Speaking of Gengar, Weavile smashes Gengar to pieces so Mienshao can Hi Jump everybody later)

Nevertheless, I agree on Weavile staying B(although believe B is better than B- where it currently is and it's not stretching imagination too much to say Weavile should be B+) but still am not convinced re Bisharp and Mienshao.

+2 Night Slash and Sucker Punch and Iron Head. Hmm, oh thats right KELDEO!!! Resists all 3 moves, OHKOs w/ secret sword and is arguably the biggest offensive threat.

Lucario 4x resists Sucker Pawnch AND Night Slash, so it can set up pretty easy without much fear. It also force Bisharp out (STAB CC OHKOS all Bisharp).
Jirachi can take both Stone Edge and HJK. Volcarone can eat HJK, and Gengar just outspeeds. ScarfMienshao? Well oftentimes people run scarfers FASTER than 105 speed.

Thirdly we are talking about Mienshao as a stand alone poke, not with teammates because nearly everypoke can be decent with support from teammates. Plus Mienshao doesnt really need support, it just is outspeed by common things, monofighting is meh, with no second STAB leaves it walled.

 

[Vemane]

+2 Night Slash and Sucker Punch and Iron Head. Hmm, oh thats right KELDEO!!! Resists all 3 moves, OHKOs w/ secret sword and is arguably the biggest offensive threat.

Lucario 4x resists Sucker Pawnch AND Night Slash, so it can set up pretty easy without much fear. It also force Bisharp out (STAB CC OHKOS all Bisharp).
Jirachi can take both Stone Edge and HJK. Volcarone can eat HJK, and Gengar just outspeeds. ScarfMienshao? Well oftentimes people run scarfers FASTER than 105 speed.

Thirdly we are talking about Mienshao as a stand alone poke, not with teammates because nearly everypoke can be decent with support from teammates. Plus Mienshao doesnt really need support, it just is outspeed by common things, monofighting is meh, with no second STAB leaves it walled.

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Bisharp (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Keldeo: 61.3% - 72.45%
2 hits to KO

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Bisharp (+Atk) Brick Break vs 252 HP/0 Def Scizor: 65.99% - 77.62%

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Bisharp (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Lucario: 43.06% - 50.89%
2-3 hits to KO

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Bisharp (+Atk) Brick Break vs 0 HP/0 Def Lucario: 216.37% - 254.8%



252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Jirachi: 79.18% - 92.67%

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Jirachi: 94.43% - 111.14%

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Volcarona: 61.41% - 72.35%

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Volcarona: 73.63% - 86.82% (and who uses volcarona in an argument like this?)

Well oftentimes people run scarfers FASTER than 105 speed.

Okay? And sometimes people run scarfers SLOWER than 105 speed. Who gives a shit?

utspeed by common things

It is outsped by, what? 6 ou pokes? Team support shouldn't be a central argument... but c'mon bro

monofighting is meh

nope

leaves it walled

By what, bar ghosts, exactly?

 

[Schpoonman]

Bisharp does not belong in any rank above D. Reliance on Sucker Punch for outspeeding threats is a horrible idea, given all the extremely fast Fighting-types in the tier. Moreover, Dark/Steel is appalling coverage, and Lucario outspeeds you, so unless you predict the switch-in, you're getting OHKOd by Close Combat long before you can KO with Brick Break, but in running Brick Break you're giving up one of your OTHER moves, so you lose priority,

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Okay? And sometimes people run scarfers SLOWER than 105 speed. Who gives a shit?

I'm pretty sure Scarf Mienshao would "give a shit" if it was up against a Scarfed Terrakion, Scarfed Keldeo, or Scarfed Latios and it all of a sudden got outsped OHKOed. The whole point of him saying there are faster Choice Scarf users is that Mienshao gets outsped by other common Choice Scarfed Pokemon.

It is outsped by, what? 6 ou pokes? Team support shouldn't be a central argument... but c'mon bro

Its outsped by Jolteon, Dugtrio, Alakazam, Starmie, Espeon, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Keldeo, Terrakion, and Infernape in OU alone, which is 20% of the tier. Other common Pokemon such as Tornadus and Weavile, who have over 2.5% usage, also outspeed it. Typically an opposing team is bound to have at least one of the above Pokemon because most of them are good and common Pokemon, two of which are S-Ranked and another 5 of which are A-Ranked.

Not arguing either way for Mienshao but victini isn't wrong about these two points.

EDIT: I want to point out that Bisharp wasn't even deemed worthy of an analysis, and it is the only Pokemon on this whole list that was rejected. There is no way it is above D-Rank.

 

[Vemane]

Bisharp does not belong in any rank above D. Reliance on Sucker Punch for outspeeding threats is a horrible idea, given all the extremely fast Fighting-types in the tier. Moreover, Dark/Steel is appalling coverage, and Lucario outspeeds you, so unless you predict the switch-in, you're getting OHKOd by Close Combat long before you can KO with Brick Break, but in running Brick Break you're giving up one of your OTHER moves, so you lose priority,

Why would you lose priority?

Sucker Punch/BB/Sub/SD is my preferred setup tbh, though iron head over sub works

Note: I don't like bisharp. It is a fairly awful pokemon in ou, but it certainly deserves a place next to the likes of kabutops. And sucker punch isn't exactly as unreliable as people make it out to be, especially when bisharp is behind a sub.

Mienshao gets outsped by other common Choice Scarfed Pokemon.

So does rotom-w, jirachi, garchomp, etc. Yes, they may have fancy typings or large bulky, but shao has a niche in both regenerator and reckless as well as u-turn. You don't NEED to outspeed other choice scarf users... they are generally weak enough to be very easy to deal with. If you are using a scarf user to help against other scarf users you are doing it incorrectly. Why would mienshao stay in against terrakion when it could switch to landorus-t, etc.? And if the opponent brought the scarfer in, either mienshao already killed something, or the scarfer likely died to hjk.

 

[Halcyon.]

I'm pretty sure Scarf Mienshao would "give a shit" if it was up against a Scarfed Terrakion, Scarfed Keldeo, or Scarfed Latios and it all of a sudden got outsped OHKOed. The whole point of him saying there are faster Choice Scarf users is that Mienshao gets outsped by other common Choice Scarfed Pokemon.



Its outsped by Jolteon, Dugtrio, Alakazam, Starmie, Espeon, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Keldeo, Terrakion, and Infernape in OU alone, which is 20% of the tier. Other common Pokemon such as Tornadus and Weavile, who have over 2.5% usage, also outspeed it. Typically an opposing team is bound to have at least one of the above Pokemon because most of them are good and common Pokemon, two of which are S-Ranked and another 5 of which are A-Ranked.

Not arguing either way for Mienshao but victini isn't wrong about these two points.

EDIT: I want to point out that Bisharp wasn't even deemed worthy of an analysis, and it is the only Pokemon on this whole list that was rejected. There is no way it is above D-Rank.

Should it even be on the list? What does Bisharp really do for the rest of the team that something else can't do? It's frail, and despite it's strength, it's coverage is awful. I think it's pretty telling if something doesn't have an OU analysis. I don't really think it needs to be on this list...

 

[vyomov]

I think it's pretty telling if something doesn't have an OU analysis. I don't really think it needs to be on this list...

Oddly enough, it has an Uber analysis, so that may not necessarily mean Bisharp is BAD just that people haven't got around to writing something for it.
Bisharp can help beat out Psychic Types like Alakazam with Sucker Punch and can also sweep after an SD.
Also, as Vemane said, scarfers are usually pretty frail and can't actually take a hit.
All the mons you stated are dealt with by Mienshao's scouting move: U-Turn.
252 Atk Mienshao U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 278-328 (110.31 - 130.15%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This means Alakazam is NEVER switching into Mienshao unless it knows that Mien is running Scarf and is locked otherwise it's kind of dead.
252 Atk Mienshao U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 224-264 (67.06 - 79.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means Mien can switch into anything with priority.
Mienshao as a Scarfer is not MEANT to switch into stuff like Latios and get screwed over. Note that if mons like Latios switch into Mien predicting High Jump Kick they are screwed over by U-Turn.
Yes a fair amount of OU outspeeds, but with U-Turn Mienshao can switch into the appropriate counter.

Also Weavile? How is Weavile going to EVER switch into Mienshao LOL
252 Atk Reckless Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 1408-1660 (501.06 - 590.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Gary]

The biggest reason Bisharp works out really well in Ubers, is because of the insane amount of Psychic and Ghost-types in the tier. Unlike in OU, the Dark-type is a very sought out for typing in Ubers, because of how much the metagame is weak to it. There are a ton of common Pokemon in OU that threaten Bisharp, whereas Ubers has a harder time dealing with a +2 STAB Sucker Punch because of the lack of Fighting-types and super effective priority. Comparing Bisharp's effectiveness in OU to it's effectiveness in Ubers is pretty much night and day. So yeah, not having an OU analysis does indeed say a lot. If you want to use Bisharp, use it in Ubers.

 

[Kidogo]

Just want to note that there's a big pattern here of people wanting to shift mons up--please guys, some of these are legit, but really think hard about it before suggesting/supporting an upwards shift. Seriously, I just ask this: are you ever really going to use bisharp on a competitive team? It's frail, slow, hard to get into battle. It basically has mono-typing coverage, and it basically has to sucker-punch everything or be OHKOed. Add to this the number of fighting-types in the tier that obliterate it, and it just doesn't have much viability. When are you ever going to fit it on your team? And Ubers usage is totally irrelevant--I'm p sure that espeon for example gets a ton of usage in ubers since it counters deo leads, but that doesn't mean it functions any better in this pursuit and u-turn-infested meta.

Mienshao is a cool mon, but again, it's a one-trick pony. It's basically the same as bisharp except better STAB, good enough speed to not have to rely on priority, way stronger STAB attack, and a nice if niche movepool. Cool scouter, scarfer, etc., but again: when are you going to use it over terrakion? Terrakion is as strong, has much better STAB coverage, is way bulkier, has critically higher speed, gets a SpD boost in sand, etc. What does mienshao really have over it? Baically, regenerator, u-turn, and ho ice. Basically never reason to use it > terra unless it's a scarf set, where regen + uturn makes it a cool scout...except offensive teams need a 108+ speed scarfer, so it doesn't really even fit the role, meaning you need ANOTHER teamslot. Cool mon, has a good niche. B at most