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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Mhm, I see your point.
    First, I just want to let you know that I have played with Sandslash before. It's not garbage (like D-Rank) but...once the novelty wears off, one can see Sandslash is quite the average shrew.

    Second, Adamant Sandslash under the Sand hits a max of 458. Scarfed Lando and Thund-T hit 496. This is why Jolly is a preferred nature as it can hit a max of 502. So some of your 2HKOs might turn into 3HKOs or lower.... :/

    Third, Scarfed Lando-T is pretty rare haha. But if you see one then hey. There's a kill for ya.

    Fourth, hopefully I have got this across to you but Sandslash's inability to OHKO leaves it vunerable to taking massive damage. Not to mention LO Recoil. This means in practicality Sandslash's sweep might not last for so long.....

    Fifth, Sandslash is pretty intimidating. However as the analysis says "It's also worth noting that Sandslash, while extremely fast in a sandstorm, can still be outpaced by a good portion of OU, namely Choice Scarf Latios and Starmie, and OHKOed by the appropriate move... In the end, checking Sandslash will boil down to exploiting its mediocre offensive stats. Don't be intimidated by Sandslash's Speed stat as, with the appropriate Pokemon, it can be swiftly brought down through calm and intelligent play."

    Finally, I'd like to throw in a little argument for the sand genie. Landorus is more popular with Special LO and Choice Scarf...however his SD sets are still existent. His sets are even more deadlier as Landorus has Sand Force and Life Orb to pack a punch. Better yet, Landorus can use Gravity to smash through, would be Counters. Sadly the shrew lacks such luxury :/

    Sandslash has potential....if it were given a bit of a boost. Easy to "gimp", relatively easy to wear down and stall out, short "life-span". All of these factors realllllyyy hurt Sandslash as a sweeper. He definitely is better in practice than on paper (I speak from experience). However, he still just doesn't have it in him to make himself a top-tier threat.

    So rankings? I'll leave that up to the other people to decide :)
  2. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I disagree!

    | Landorus-Therian |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilties |
    | Intimidate 100.000% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Leftovers 46.973% |
    | Choice Scarf 25.081%

    Fairly common, but it is unimportant, and so I digress :P

    Concerning adamant/jolly:
    I see. If anything, it still is faster than the likes of keldeo, terrakion, etc. which certainly has some merit when adamant. :)

    By the time sandslash does go out though (midgame/late game) the things it can't ko should be weakened to the point where they are indeed ko-able, something that isn't too difficult in sandstorm after quite a bit of time.

    I don't like how it says "a good portion of ou," as I find it misleading. It is outsped by the majority of /scarved/ pokemon, but that is the case with virtually every non-scarved mon! So I don't feel it should be held as too much of a detriment.

    While landorus's sd set is stronger, it, unlike sandslash, is outsped by a good portion of NON scarved mons, making it very difficult to run in this meta (though against defensive teams, it works wonders)

    And finally, try not to get involved with picturing him as a top-tier threat, because that isn't what I'm trying to portray him as. I'm trying to put him alongside the likes of toxicroak and zapdos and co. (very obviously not top-tier threats!), not in the a or s tiers. ^_^
  3. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Aight well we've presented our cases well enough haha n_n
    Its up to PK Gaming and the others to decide the rank of Slash here haha.
    B-Tier doesn't sound bad although I won't be surprsed if it doesn't climb lol

    And of course. I know he isn't top-tier. I was disgressing myself so I apologize for that. Anyways, Sandslash might see some more usage when Rain takes a step down. Otherwise..... o.o

    Leftovers 46.973% |
    | Choice Scarf 25.081%

    I mean... Leftovers is nearly Double man... ;)
  4. Avira

    Avira

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    I think that Zapdos should move down to C-Tier. It's just a specialized check to Tornadus-T that gets destroyed by pretty much every other relevant special attacker. I guess it also checks Scizor, but there are better checks to the most commonly seen Pokemon in OU than Zapdos.
  5. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    Ok, I'm seriously tired of people talking shit about Zapdos. No one even considered him a bad poke until people started arguing about him on the suspect thread. Zapdos is by no means a bad mon, and when it receives Lightningrod it will be even more solid.
  6. Nova

    Nova Samsung Alpaca
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    The problem with Zapdos is that although it is a solid Pokemon overall, it's outclassed by other Pokemon in OU in its main roles. As a Special sweeper, Thundurus-T is more efficient with a much higher Special Attack stat, 1 more point in base Speed that is very crucial in outspeeding the numerous Pokemon sitting at base 100 Speed, and access to Nasty Plot which sends his Special Attack soaring, being able to 2HKO Blissey with some hazards down. As a Specially Defensive wall and primary check to Tornadus-T, Jirachi and Rotom-W outperform Zapdos in this role. Jirachi has many more resistances than Zapdos and access to Stealth Rock and Wish to support the rest of the team. Rotom-W has only one weakness that is not a very common attacking type (Grass), better checks Rain teams than Zapdos does due to a resistance to Water type attacks, and can more freely abuse Volt Switch as he does not have a Stealth Rock weakness. Rotom-W can usually handle Scizor as well, due to 4x resistance to Bullet Punch and being able to outspeed Scizor and hit the bug with Hydro Pump or cripple it with Will-o-Wisp before it can U-turn. As a Physical wall, Landorus-T outclasses Zapdos with its Intimidate ability and ability to also check Terrakion. Zapdos is a great Pokemon, but typically there are other Pokemon that can perform the role Zapdos is performing more effectively.
  7. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    I'm no big expert on Zapdos, but I have utilized the big bird in the past. Zapdos, to me, was a pretty situational Pokemon to be honest. Sometimes it'd really pull its weight and be effective, while other times, it kinda lacked a bit and was almost like the dead weight of the team.
    Zapdos isn't a bad Pokemon. But he's far from superb.
    In my opinion, Zapdos would fall under the category of niche Pokemon. If your team struggles against certain Pokemon, and Zapdos is able to take them on all day, by all means utilize him. However don't expect Zapdos to always do his job. For example, he's no Skarmory or Blissey. Usually, these two defensive behemoths can be thrown in and are able to tank the majority of the metagame. Zapdos should only be used take on certain threats and shouldn't be used in a manner where he isn't successful.
  8. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

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    Just a little nitpick here, but since Keldeo is a suspect this round shouldn't it be S-rank? Cuz right now the tier definitions do not coincide with the current suspect test.
  9. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!
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    IMO, Keldeo doesn't deserve its suspect status and chances are it's not going to be banned. Torn-T has a good chance of moving up to Ubers, but Keldeo is just a special variant of Terrakion (that gains a massive boost in Rain) and has reliable checks/counters in Lati@s, Jellicent, etc. I like Keldeo where it is, and there's no point in moving it to S-Tier simply because of it being suspect.
  10. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    While I think almost all of us don't think Keldeo is broken what-so-ever, it is still an amazing attacker and an absolute monster under the rain, the specs set even has a tiny chance to 2HKO its counters like Celebi and Amoonguss with hydropump in the rain. Now that's power. The scarf set can give offensive teams problems, and the calm mind and specs set screw over any defensive team without a direct counter. Again, I don't think its anywhere near broken, but it certainly is a force to reckon with. It may be S-tier worthy in its own right ignoring its current suspect status.
  11. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I feel as if terrakion is S-Tier, than keldeo more than deserves it. Whether or not it fits the description is one thing, but it most certainly performs on a same, or greater, level than terrakion.
  12. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    Keldeo and Hippowdon for S-Tier.
  13. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I agree Keldeo, however, Hippowdon is not S-Tier material. It is washed away by the Water-type attacks running around, it either has bad special bulk or worse physical bulk that don't let it counter things like Terrakion as effectively (this depends on where you invest EVs), and it lacks the same offensive presence that Tyranitar has. While it's true that Hippowdon hits very hard for a wall, unfortunately there are many things immune to Earthquake these days. Although Hippowdon has reliable recovery, and doesn't care about Dugtrio unlike Tyranitar, Hippowdon unfortunately has some flaws that prevent him from being solid S-Tier.
  14. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I actually brought this topic up the second I heard he was a suspect, and I forget what three users it was, but they all completely shutdown the idea of Keldeo being S-tier worthy. I think its at least viable since Keldeo hits like a truck on both sides offensively, only needs rain to perform at full capacity (which isn't even necessary; just overkill sometimes), and is for the most part the special version of Terrakion. The only thing holding Keldeo back is the fact it doesn't have anything to increase it's speed outside of a Choice Scarf unlike Terrakion.
  15. Victini Owns

    Victini Owns

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    Is Politoed really S rank? It's not a sweeper in any way and it's countered by a lot of things Tentacruel, Lati@s, Abomasnow, Blissey/Chansey, Celebi, etc. I also found it hard winning the weather war with him against Tyranitar which could just Pursuit him at low health. And Choice Band Tyranitar is actually a big threat to any Politoed as Crunch 2HKO's defensive versions and Pursuit does a lot of damage to Scarf/Specs variants possibly OHKO's if they try to switch out. Your thoughts?
  16. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    It's because of its ability to set up rain support
  17. Vemane

    Vemane

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    It isn't hippowdon's ability as a wall that makes it s-tier (same as with tyrannitar), it is its ability to summon sandstream (ie. like politoed and ninetales, except the weather is slightly worse in exchange for being a better pokemon. And even if the weather is not /as/ beneficial, it is still a HUGE amount of support)
  18. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    This. Politoed isn't a particularly good mon (it was NU before Drizzle...) and has to slap on some choice specs to be able to do any real damage. Sand Stream is an excellent ability, and Hippow is actually a good mon.
  19. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Sand Stream is not an excellent ability. It doesn't power up Hydro Pumps, doesn't cut down Fire Blasts' power in two, and neither does it give 100% accuraccy for a powerful attack, whereas rain enables 2 (Thunder, Hurricane). It also enables a lot of mons to thrive in it (Tenta, Toxicroak, Ferrothorn, Scizor, etc).

    Sand kinda just cancels out the other weathers and grants Ttar and Terrakion an SpDef boost. There's only 3 mons that can truly abuse Sandstorm - Stoutland and Sandslash, who are not threatening at all without it, and Sand Force Landorus, who seems to be much better running Sheer Force sets in this meta.
  20. Victini Owns

    Victini Owns

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    I'll gladly battle a Hippowdon over Tyranitar any day their so much easier to handle and easier to win the weather war with Politoed or Ninetales. Hippowdown might have better physical defense, recovery and not as many weaknesses but it can't deal much damage back at all so it's easy to just stall it out with toxic or hit it hard with special moves until it eventually has to be used as death fodder. EX: on sun teams it can't do anything against Xatu which is common on sun teams and on rain teams it can be handled by Politoed or even Tornadus.
  21. Qwertyaaaaaa

    Qwertyaaaaaa

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    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

    I think Salamence should be here tbh. Lets break it down.

    "Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame"

    Salamence fits this description at the moment. Notice I didn't say anything about dragonite. It has a solid combination of bulk attack power and speed, but more importantly a priority move in extreme speed. Speakign of priority moves Dragonite can take one beter thanks to multiscale. Multiscale allows Dragonite to have a much easier time setting up in general. Salamence is just revenge killed so easily. Salamence is also a lot less diverse and more predictble than Dragonite making it easy to wall.

    Lets take a look at a lot of the top threats in the S and A tiers. Salamence struggles with them.

    Deoxys-D: This one is hit or miss. MEnce can suually set up but people are egtting creative. Some of these run red card and thunder wave which just ruins Salamence.

    Politoed: Oh man. Ice Beam. Perish Song. Scald. Alazing Bulk. Salamence hates this guy.

    Terrakion: Salamence is no match if it doesn't set up first

    Tornadus T: LOL HURRICANE

    Breloom: Breloom doesn't threaten mence that much specifically but sash + spore ruins a lot of stuff.

    Dragonite: Can usually take a hit from slamence even at +1 thanks to multiscale and KO back

    Ferrothorn: Melted with Fire Blast, not really a threat

    Garchomp: Faster than mence. Scarf outspeeds +1 mence

    Heatran: More than half have air balloon. One of the few pokemon that can outright wall it.

    Hippowdon: Stupid bulk. Mence needs to boost 4 times to even dream about getting past this thing.

    Jirachi: Mence needs at least two boosts prior to its entry to be able to not get destroyed by hax or ice punch

    Keldeo: Faster, hidden power ice.

    Kyrurem B: Salamence is faster, so its not a threat.

    Landorus: Faster, hidden power ice

    Latias: Faster dragon

    Latios: Same as above

    Ninetales: Speed tie. Match up is hit or miss slightly in salamence's favor because a lot carry hyposis or will-o-wisp and it'll wreck mence, but thing is they're innacurate

    Rotom-W: Depends. If Salamence doesn't have a boost it is in trouble

    Scizor: Melted by fire blast, BUT if rocks are up wound your team CB Scizor can one shot it with BP

    Starmie: Is faster, ice beam

    Thundrus-T: ehh hit or miss

    Tyranitar: Mence needs a boost to ohko but a healthy amount are sashed.


    Approx 90% of the top threats in OU have a way to threaten Salamence and prevent it from setting up one way or another. Moxie is great but what good is it really when so many Pokemon are an immediate threat to Salamence.
  22. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Deoxys: Red Card 18.587%, Thunder Wave 9.453%
    Good luck with that

    Politoed: 252 +1 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Politoed (+Def) : 88.54% - 104.17%
    31.25% chance to OHKO
    I don't think that mence cares, and ice beam is super rare considering 4mss

    Terrakion: Well mence certainly is not switching in... But it can set up on choiced close combat.

    Tornadus T: LOL SCARFED OUTRAGE

    Breloom: I hope you know how rare focus sash loom is (because I sure don't... considering it is listed as 152 checks and counters in the usage stats meaning that finding its stats is stupidly difficult)

    Dragonite: Lol rocks lol 252 +1 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs 54 HP/0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 122.32% - 143.75%
    Guaranteed OHKO

    Heatran: If that balloon is not gone by midgame, someone is not playing correctly

    Hippowdon: 252 +1 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Hippowdon (+Def) : 60.24% - 70.71%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    Or just once...

    Landorus: Never scarved, outrage

    Lati@s: Never scarved/rarely scarved depending on which one. Latios is fine against it, latias is dead.

    Ninetales: LOL Wtf no way did you just say that tales beats mence

    Rotom-W: 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Rotom-W: 81.25% - 96.05%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    I think mence will be just fine actually

    Starmie: Lol scarved or +1, mence isn't switching in, starmie is

    Tyranitar: Focus Sash 3.865%
    What the actual fuck healthy amount
  23. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    While it's true that Sandstorm does not cut a type's power, this, depending from your point of view, could actually be considered a good thing. This is because rain teams would struggle so much less against things like Celebi or Ferrothorn if Fire-type attacks weren't cut on half, while if Water-type attacks weren't cut down by sun, the latter would not probably have as much problems against Heatran and some Ground-types as it has.

    Also, Sand Force sets are still very viable, I would say as much viable as Sheer Force sets on sandstorm teams. This is not to say that physical Landorus outclass special Landorus on sandstorm, on contrary, you are able to lure your opponent on thinking that you are using a physical set. Not to mention that most of Sheer Force Landorus' counters are actually take down by Tyranitar. However, physical Landorus is actually more powerful under sandstorm, has better coverage, can abuse U-Turn better than special variants, and can still use Hidden Power Ice against threats 4x weak to it.

    This is not to say that Sand Stream is an excellent ability. Also, I am not arguing in favor of Hippowdon, actually, I think that neither him nor Tyranitar, or even Politoed, are S-Tier material. I think that while talking about its support capatibilities is relevant, you must also consider the Pokémon itself, and... Politoed is not very good by itself. It would be outclassed by many bulky Water-types like Jellicent or Vaporeon, if it didn't had Drizzle.
  24. Qwertyaaaaaa

    Qwertyaaaaaa

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    Politoed: WTF is 4mss. And fuck you mean ice beam is super rare, I've yet to face a Politoed without one. It's in every moveset in the analysis

    Tornadus T: LOL STEEL SWITCH IN

    Terrakion: True, but overall Terra beats Mence

    Heatran: Or maybe the other guy doesnt send it out until you send out mence

    Hippowdon: Still not the OHKO it needs. Ice Fang, lol

    Lati@s: Scarf lati@s is faster than Scarf mence. Normal Lati@s is faster than Normal mence. More often than not the lati twins are going to go first

    Ninetales: Oh wow. I never said that at all. I said that the matchup is actually in favor of mence but mence is screwed IF ninetales goes first it gets hit with status.

    Rotom-W: Then it will get a will-o-wisp or a hidden power ice.

    Starmie: Yeah but mence has to get the boost and not be crippled by anything beforehand
  25. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    4mss = 4 Moveset Syndrom => When a Pokemon have problems to get "all his moves in only 4 slots" for coverage or defensive purpose
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