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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Vemane

    Vemane

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    That isn't what diverse means...

    Baton pass might make the /metagame/ more diverse (which it really doesn't fyi), but a baton pass team is undoubtably the least diverse team to exist.

    ninjask+vap+espeon+mr mime+scizor+filler is the layout for nearly EVERY single one

    They all fill an important niche roll and they do it well, thus there is no reason to switch them out for other pokes
  2. Vemane

    Vemane

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    It's not so much Ttar's charasteristics as an individual pokemon that I am addressing, more the support characteristic that placed toad in S-tier.

    In my opinion, the most difficult factor in determining TTar's place is hippowdown.

    Both of them have their individual merits, and in the current metagame, both are equally effective (from my experience)

    But both also provide the same support, which brings up whether or not the two should be tiered together as general sand supporters
  3. superbadd

    superbadd

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    I meant that it diversifies the metagame as a whole by adding more playstyles, not that the team archetype is varied in itself.
  4. Vemane

    Vemane

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    That is not what you said at all, though, no matter what you meant, thus resulting in the small chunk of banter that ensued.

    And adding a single playstyle (that makes it more difficult for other playstyles to function no less) is hardly diversifying the metagame, especially one so rarely used.
  5. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    Imo Hippo is just better. Sure ttar can reliably shut down psychics like Lati@s and Starmie (and this is a really good attribute to have), but with it's typing it just feels to me like everything's got something on you. The top 6 mons on the suspect ladder can all handle ttar, while only around 4 can take on Hippowdon.
  6. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck you spin mine head right round right round
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    Tyranitar being S rank is a ridiculous idea. It's nowhere near as dominant as the S Pokemon we have already, and it gets destroyed by a significant chunk of the metagame without nearly providing support on the level that Politoed or Deoxys-D does. Frankly, Tyranitar is only so good because of the presence of Politoed and Ninetales - without the presence of other weather there would be far less reason to run Tyranitar. For this reason, it should remain A tier.
  7. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    There are 6 mons that can handle ttar. Now, say which Pokémon Hippowdon can handle. Hippowdon has less offensive presence than ttar and is very prone to lose momentum and being useless sometimes. Not to mention that nasty weakness to special attacks.

    This is not to say that Tyranitar is S-Tier. I am unsure of this, because while what Tyranitar can do is certainly amazing, it has those nasty common weakness, and is not actually sweeping most of the metagame. Not to mention that there are few actual sand abusers, which diminishes the need to use Tyranitar.
  8. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    On the topic of Tyranitar going S-Rank:
    I disagree. If we look at this current metagame which kinda looks like this:
    [Rain, Rain, and Rain]
    We can see Tyranitar is struggling a lot. Ever since B2W2 came in, Tyranitar took a major fall from being in the top 5 position. Tornadus-Therian, Thundurus-Therian, Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion, Breloom, Lucario, Scizor, and Garchomp all make Tyranitar's life miserable. (Mind you these are not some low-usage Pokemon)
    Can Tyranitar really provide massive support? Not really. It does eliminate other weathers for a while upon switching and it can trap some threatening Pokemon. But sadly not too many Pokemon benefit greatly from Tyranitar. Landorus gets a Boost, so does Stoutland, and Terrakion. Sandslash is a maybe as it isn't greatly used at this point. So the amount of support it can provide is definitely not close to S-Rank support such as Politoed.
    Tyranitar also is not able to create too many "free-turns" and it fails to wall a majority of the metagame.
    Sadly, our favorite T-Rex of the ages will have to take a backseat and watch as Rain dominates for Gen V...hopefully Gen VI will bring great change again
  9. TheArchangle

    TheArchangle

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    Moltres deserves a spot in the C-Rank, if given rain(yes Rain) and spin support can be extremely effective but SR works as a crippling flaw as it looses half its health, additionally Moltres base 90 speed is a little bit middling. Here are some damage calcs from Smogon's OU entry for Moltres w/Specs,
    Additionally a Fire Blast in the rain from Moltres still OHKO's Ferrothorn. I would've gone in depth a little bit more but I have to run! I'll probably edit this a little bit later.
  10. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Deoxys D is dominant? When is the last time you stepped onto the ladder? And it most certainly provides far more support thatn deoxys. Infinite sand+Getting rid of other weathers >>>>>> than a layer of rocks and one of spikes (maybe).

    Tyrannitar's merits as a pokemon are supplementary to the sand it provides; it is most certainly a better poke than poli or ninetalrs, while still providing similar support.

    And as mentioned, it serves as a nice way to deal with other whethers, simply by chaanging them. It can double sandslash+stoutland's speed, it can make lando extremely strong, and it can provide a very nice bulk boost to pokes like terrakion (ie... Gene ( in that meta) could no longer ko, it can now take dcalds, etc) plus the residual damage
  11. masterful

    masterful

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    Deo-D is almost assured SR and at least 1 layer of spikes, while Ttar can only put up SR/Pursuit trap as his team support. He is going to die before the opponent's Politoed, if not because of Dugtrio, because of the fact that he's weak to eeeeeverything that a rain team has. Torn-T can OHKO him, Toed can OHKO him, Keldeo can OHKO him, Dugtrio can OHKO him, Thundurus-T can probably OHKO him. These are the pokes that are running the meta, and he can't stand up to them! Tyranitar for S-rank is out-of-this-world dumb.
  12. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    1. Chople Berry makes it so Torn-T can't OHKO him; which also means Thundy-T can't as well.
    2. Choice Banded TTar can OHKO Choice Scarf Politoed's locked into Ice Beam (or Surf; pursuit as they switch), and also destroy both switching Ninetales and pursuit fucks sleeping Torn-T (Breloom is an amazin partner for this). Torn-T can't switch into Banded Stone Edge as well, making it a... check?
    3. Pursuit support is amazing since it eliminates the Lati twins (making its support amazing for Pokemon like Terrakion or Keldeo who don't necessarily like Latias's ability to wall their fighting STABs. )
    4. It's ability to break through stall walls with Band (SE 2hkos both Chansey and Skarm) is something Hippo could never brag without lolSand Force.
    5. It's ability to run a Scarf is something that Hippo can't brag (as it can check non-scarf'd Keldy and Rak).

    Just putting these things out there that it isn't complete dead weight vs. Rain. The Band'd Tyranitar's pratically kill everything rain has to offer if it gets a free switch (Superpower takes Ferro / Crunch 2HKOs anything that can't resist / Pursuit traps things that are problematic like sleeping Torn-T or possibly Politoed).

    Also, I don't get your point because everything that you mentioned also harms / effects Hippo. Torn-T 2HKOs Hippo after Rocks (I think this even applies to the SDef variant but I'm too lazy to calc so that's up for grabs), so it can KO / HP Ice from Thundy-T 2HKOs (especially if it gets +2 from Nasty Plot) / Specs Toed's Hydro Pump OHKOs (at least Banded Tar outspeeds) / Keldeo can OHKO him. The only exception is Dugtrio, which is a very slight difference considering most rain doesn't run him.

    tl;tr: TTar has more merits than your giving credit for. I'm still on and off about the S Tier thing, I think it certainly has a chance for S rank. Looking forward to more discussion on that.


    EDIT:

    @ Lord of Bays:

    Nice catch. I updated my post.
  13. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I'm sorry, Scarf Tyranitar outspeeds Dugtrio? Scarf Tyranitar outspeeds base 115s, not 120s.
  14. masterful

    masterful

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    1) Chople Ttar also loses out on being actually threatening, and still gets OHKOd through Chople after some U-turn/Volt Switch + hazards damage.
    2)I'm not comparing Ttar against Hippo, I'm comparing him to a hypothetical S-rank pokemon. If someone locks themseleves into Ice beam vs a Choice Band Ttar, that player messed up. That has nothing to do with Ttar being S-rank. I'm just saying that it can't safely switch into any of these things. I didn't say Tornadus-T checks Ttar, I'm not retarded, and who in god's name switches Ninetales in on Ttar? If you assume your opponent is always terrible, then yes, Ttar is very good.
    3) Pursuit is good for trapping, I already agreed to that. Does it make Ttar S-rank? No.
    4) Sooooo, being a slower version of Band Terrakion with worse coverage is the argument for Ttar being S-rank? If that's not true, feel free to correct me, but having a Choice band makes a lot of pokes good wallbreakers, and does not in any way make ttar special, especially when it has so few chances to come in and fire off a free attack since Band Ttar is killed by pretty much all the pokes I listed before.
    5) Once again, not saying it's worse than Hippo, just that it's worse than S-rank. Also, Scarf Tyranitar is not even close to being good enough to qualify as a set worthy of pushing a poke into the S tier.

    Ttar has merits, I'm not denying it, but in this meta, he's just not nearly as good as he used to be, and definitely not S rank by any definition.
  15. Vemane

    Vemane

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    What do you mean he can only put up stealth rock or pursuit trap?

    Do you not realize he has SAND STREAM???

    The thing that MAKES him a top-tier OU threat.

    If you /cough/ read any of my posts, you would realize I was not arguing tyrannitar itself as s-tier, I was arguing his ability to summon sandstorm.

    Which is FAR more valuable than deoxys' job (who is quite easy to 2hko before it sets up any spikes, and is easily replacable in many teams)

    So get over tyrannitar itself and look rather at its ability: sandstream, as well as the fact that tyrannitar isn't a bad pokemon in itself (as opposed to some of the other weather starters).
  16. zpattack12

    zpattack12

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    I think the difference is the benefits that rain brings to a team is the big factor. Sand does not do much compared to Rain, which makes Politoed a better supporter.
  17. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Sand Stream is what makes Tyranitar A-tier; Unnerve Tyranitar is completely useless. All Sand Stream does is make Rock-type Pokemon specially hardier (hit them with one of the tiers many, many Fighting attacks and they'll still crumble), increase the damage done by Pokemon with Sand Force (i.e. Landorus), speed up Pokemon with Sand Rush (i.e. Stoutland and LOL Sandslash), and cancel out Leftovers recovery. Compared to things like Rain and even Sun, Sand is relatively limited in options.
  18. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Speaking of which, moving away from tyrannitar for the time being as you are correct in that, at least in this meta, sand is less potent than rain and sun, I would like to nominate Sandslash for b-tier.

    In my opinion, sandslash is a VERY solid b-tier pokemon, and here is why:

    I find that sandslash fits this role, and even beyond.


    [​IMG]
    -Sandslash is quite the potent sweeper, along the lines of a mini-excadrill, in sand.
    -It does not hit as hard as excadrill, but is able to cause quite a large bit of damage (as will be displayed later)
    -It has above average physical bulk, allowing it to take priority attacks decently
    -It is able to attain perfect coverage with a moveset of earthquake, stone edge, and x-scissor.
    -It has 1 greater speed than a nuetral +1 base 100 pokemon when Adamant, meaning that it sits at an extremely nice immediate speed tier, though it is not as difficult to revenge as excadrill
    -Sandslash can run rapid spin, freeing up a slot for another pokemon while being able to beat almost all spinblockers

    [​IMG]
    Sandslash @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - X-Scissor

    Sandslash is immediately powerful, and immediately lighting fast with this set, capable of denting many things and able to force many switches to setup.

    Calcs:
    Show Hide

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Politoed (+Def) : 87.5% - 102.6% 1hko with rocks

    252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 4 HP/0 Def Politoed: 76.71% - 90.68% 25% chance to 1hko with 1 switch into rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/4 Def Ferrothorn: 87.22% - 102.56% 62% chance to 1hko with 1 switch into rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 65.62% - 77.56% Very clean 2hko, 1hko with 30% prior damage

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 113.76% - 123.13% 1hko

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Breloom: 89.66% - 105.36% 75% chance to 1hko with rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/0 Def Rotom-W: 80.59% - 94.74% 50% chance to 1hko after rocks


    These just showcase sandslash's strength against a few threats. Give it some hazards support and the opponent will be hard pressed to find anything to deal with it midgame!
  19. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    My problem lies in that bolded section: outspeeds +1 base 100's. Ordinarily that'd be pretty awesome, but base 100 speed just isn't what it used to be anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if you rely on speed to sweep but can't outspeed +1 base 108's, I don't really have time for you. Keldeo and that Lati twins will easily kill you, either after you score a kill yourself, or as you try and Swords Dance to get a sweep going.

    I really like Sandslash, to be honest, but I don't think he has the moxie to be a threat in any way in this metagame, even if those calcs are pretty impressive. He can Rapid Spin, so I guess that's pretty cool for making him a sort of poor man's Sand team Starmie, but I see little use for him outside of that.
  20. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Which is why I support his movement to b tier

    Alongside the likes of other "slow" threats like jolteon and stoutland (he definitely deserves the same as stout if anything), and zapdos, and toxicroak

    He has a niche and he packs a punch. And requiring only sand support and the elimination of a possible scarfer is not all that much support to ask of a pokemon who can run through teams

    He can't quite make it in a-tier, but he is certainly on the same level as many b-tier pokemon
  21. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    LOL, I guess it's Sandslash discussion Round 2:
    Sandslash was originally nominated for D-Tier.
    However, PK Gaming felt that Sand Rush, placed our little shrew on a whole new level compared to the other D-Tierers; thus Sandslash went to C.
    Now people want to throw Sandslash, who's niche in this meta is Rapid Spinning and possible sweeping under the influence of Sand, into the B-Tier.
    Let's see:
    Sandslash is quite effective at spinning away hazards when given the right support which basically means Sand.
    What is his crippling flaw? Nothing jumps out to me really. I could be wrong of course, but looking at Sandslash as a whole, nothing jumps out at me like Volcarona's 4x SR Weakness or something...
    However, the fact that Sandslash is only reliable under Sand can prevent him from spinning reliably and consistently; the same applies for SD Sweeping.
    Is Sandslash inferior to other Spinners? Possibly. If Sandteams are looking for a spinner the fact that Sandslash is Ground type will only Compound their Ice/Water/Grass weakness. Starmie can be viewed as a more reliable spinner thanks to the fact that it doesn't need sand and the fact that it doesn't compound Ice/Water Weakness (although Grass compounds...but then again, many Sand Abusers aren't weak to Grass type moves. Plus, Celebi and Ferrothorn are the only real common users of Grass type moves anyways). Starmie is also able to take on most Spinblockers. Jellicents can worn down while Gengars can be smashed with Psyshocks/Psychics.
    Starmie actually has a merit over Sandslash. Natural Cure and Recover. This allows Starmie to switch in and out and spin reliably no matter the situation. Sandslash lacks that kind of luxury. So to answer the question: Sandslash is typically inferior to Pokemon in higher Ranks and also has a flaw that prevents it from doing its job consistently.

    Overall Sandslash really seems to fall in line with the C-Tier Definition. If you still think he's B-Tier Quality persuade me; otherwise I think Sandslash should stay C-Tier
  22. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I'm not examining him as a spinner, though, moreso as a sweeper. Sandslash's immediate speed and power under sand are almost unmatched, and completely so in b-tier.

    I feel as if the sand support rather places him under "can properly fill an offensive niche" of b-tier, or even "can sweep significant something or whatever" of the a-tier (though his other flaws, most notably his speed and complete reliance on sand hold him back from a).

    As the calcs I posted previously showed, he is extremely powerful offensively, and his base 100 attack is misleading because of his ability to run adamant without any drawbacks really.

    Against offensive teams, he can often 1hko the lot.

    Otherwise, he can 2hko gliscor and skarm at +2, allowing him to destroy even defensively oriented teams.

    The only thing preventing him from sweeping often is other weather, though pairing him with Gothitelle or Dugtrio or running Dual Sand can mitigate this. Or even allowing the weather starter to switch in, only to be 1hkod by earthquake (no matter what occurs, sandslash is normally able to take out at least 2 pokemon)

    Priority is hard pressed to stop him due to his nice physical bulk, giving him further grounds against offensive teams.

    Also, here are calcs against virtually everything in ou. There are no rocks involved (so if rocks are up, things like dragonite are 1hkod):
    Show Hide

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 39.65 - 46.89% (balloon)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 43.82 - 51.54% (balloon)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 44.61 - 52.99%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 47.45 - 55.93%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Gliscor: 54.1 - 63.73%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 58.08 - 68.56%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 59.76 - 70.47%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 216 Def Breloom: 61.25 - 72.18%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 64.32 - 76.04%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 65.28 - 77.2%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Forretress: 65.25 - 77.4%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 66.77 - 78.68%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 69.68 - 82.12%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 69.94 - 82.38%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Hippowdon: 72.61 - 85.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 73.15 - 86.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gliscor: 73.19 - 86.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 74.14 - 87.5%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 76.23 - 89.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 76.47 - 90.09%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 78.12 - 91.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Deoxys-D: 79.6 - 94.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 80.52 - 95.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 81.4 - 96.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 81.63 - 96.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 82.5 - 97.19%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 82.48 - 97.71%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 82.69 - 97.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 83.33 - 98.14%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Salamence: 83.24 - 98.22%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 83.59 - 98.45%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Cloyster: 83.16 - 98.67%

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 84.66 - 100%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 84.66 - 100%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 86.19 - 101.82%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 87.23 - 102.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 87.74 - 103.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 88.08 - 103.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 90.07 - 105.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Latias: 89.28 - 105.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 192 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 90.54 - 106.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 90.78 - 106.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Multiscale Dragonite: 93.49 - 109.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 94.69 - 111.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 136+ Def Vaporeon: 94.8 - 111.68%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 98.06 - 115.21%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 100.82 - 119.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 106 - 124.54%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 106.56 - 125.19%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 109.09 - 128.45%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 212 Def Vaporeon: 109.22 - 128.67%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 110.15 - 129.94%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 110.43 - 130.27%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Salamence: 110.91 - 130.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 111.69 - 132.16%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 112.5 - 133.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 112.82 - 133.52%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 117.94 - 138.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 118.82 - 139.85%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 122.52 - 144.05%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias: 124.17 - 146.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 125 - 147.25%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 124.88 - 147.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 36 Def Gastrodon: 125.8 - 148.13%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 126.13 - 149.06%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 128.38 - 151.3%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 128.53 - 151.52%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Gyarados: 128.7 - 151.66%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 129.28 - 152.2%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 128.21 - 152.28%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Dragonite: 130.56 - 154.14%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 131.57 - 154.79%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 134.21 - 158.11%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 135.41 - 159.89%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latios: 136.53 - 160.71%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 137.1 - 162.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 137.72 - 162.98%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Abomasnow: 138.8 - 163.8%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 139.37 - 164.24%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 139.57 - 164.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 140.15 - 165.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 140.72 - 165.56%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 141.38 - 166.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jirachi: 141.58 - 166.58%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 143.46 - 168.55%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 144.55 - 170.06%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 145.98 - 172.53%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 149.23 - 175.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 149.66 - 176.82%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 150.66 - 177.48%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 151.98 - 178.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 153.1 - 180.43%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 154.6 - 182.51%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 165.23 - 194.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 166.97 - 196.6%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 167.49 - 197.21%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 168.53 - 198.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Venusaur: 168.77 - 199.66%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Celebi: 169.8 - 200.74%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 170.05 - 201.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Gyarados: 171.29 - 201.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 177.47 - 209.15%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 178.8 - 210.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 180.76 - 212.91%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 180.53 - 213.35%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 181.22 - 214.17%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 180.99 - 214.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 183.18 - 215.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 185.92 - 219.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragonite: 186.68 - 219.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 187.72 - 220.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 188 - 221.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 188.51 - 222.35%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 188.68 - 222.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 189.42 - 222.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 191.83 - 226.48%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 204.12 - 240.65%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 204.7 - 241.83%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 204.96 - 242.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 205.64 - 243.52%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-T: 207.02 - 244.14%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 207.26 - 244.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 208.69 - 246.15%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 208.83 - 246.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 209.64 - 247.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 214.68 - 253.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 214.8 - 253.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Tentacruel: 222.8 - 262.08%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 226.6 - 267.54%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 227.41 - 267.91%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 227.27 - 268.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magikarp: 230.21 - 270.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 231.33 - 273%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 241.81 - 285.67%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 260.68 - 307.43%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 262.34 - 308.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 263.15 - 309.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Volcarona: 271.96 - 321.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 281.42 - 332%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Toxicroak: 294.56 - 347.55%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 299.45 - 352.44%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 32 Def Dugtrio: 301.42 - 354.97%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 307.53 - 361.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 306.85 - 361.99%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 316.98 - 374.05%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 343.2 - 404.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magikarp: 345.05 - 405.49%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 350 - 411.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 351.19 - 413.31%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 357.79 - 421.1%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 368.56 - 433.77%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 368.79 - 435.1%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Magnezone: 368.89 - 435.17%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 384.93 - 453.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 385.93 - 454.94%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 391.12 - 460.4%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 419.08 - 493.16%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 429.88 - 506.64%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 432.47 - 510.33%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 433.33 - 511.63%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 457.4 - 539.19%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 458.82 - 540.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 469.77 - 553.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 472.99 - 556.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 475.17 - 561.03%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 488.65 - 576.95%
  23. TaBuu

    TaBuu

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    Haha, wow. You've brought in quite the extensive list of calculations haven't you?
    Well at this point I'm not too sure where to place Sandslash. Not A for sure, but possibly B...I'll leave the ranking to the others. In this post I will simply act as the opposition and provide the facts:

    I still feel maintaining Sand is not the easiest thing in the world. You can run Goth. which is probably the most effective. Running Dual Sand will just triple up on the Grass and Water Weakness and leave you pretty limited in options. Not to mention Rain and Sun can trample the team.

    Next, I want to make a comment on your calculations. First off, kudos to you for actually taking the time to do all of them. However, many of them are relatively obvious and a waste of space. Yet others aren't completely thought out:

    1.)If Magnezone is on a Balloon and you proceed to Stone Edge it, one you better hope it doesn't miss lol. But two, Magnezone(252 SpA) is free to massively dent Sandslash with either HP Ice (85.22 - 100.34% Keep in mind the LO Recoil) or Flash Cannon (72.5 - 85.91%) and then next turn, switch out.

    2.)Air Balloon Terrakion will take the Stone Edge, provided it doesn't miss, and then proceed to mash it with Close Combat (61.85 - 73.19%). The smart player will usually choose to switch out Terrakion and prepare to revenge the weakened Sandslash.

    3.)Skarmory is not a definite 2HKO. It can either Roost back its Health, set up Hazards, or Whirlwind the Sandslash out of the field, eliminating its boosts.

    4.)Gliscor can tank the Stone Edge in a similar manner. Gliscor can proceed to use Substitute and Protect. A Toxic can be thrown out to status Sandslash and when factoring in the Toxic damage and LO Recoil, Sandslash's lifespan is greatly shortened.

    5.)Hippowdon can manage to take a hit and Roar out the Sandslash and potentially Slack Off on the dragged out Pokemon.

    6.)Poison Heal Breloom, a very rare sight, is able to Spore on Sandslash and proceed to set up.

    7.)A +2 LO Adamant X-Scissor on Techniloom has a 18.75% chance to OHKO. This means a good majority of the time, it can survive and proceed to either Spore or Bullet Seed it to death.

    8.)Defensive Donphan is able to land a Toxic on Sandslash, shortening its playing time on the field and facilitating a Revenge Kill. It can also Roar out Sandslash.

    9.)The Sub+DD Variant of Dragonite can simply Sub+DD+Roost on Sandslash, banking on the eventual miss. (However, Sandslash will probably win this situation out)

    10.)The DD Variant will also lose. However a single Outrage will do 70% minimum and 82% max. Once again, factoring in LO Recoil, this will leave Sandslash very weakened.

    11.)Landorus-T almost always runs max HP and almost always runs some form of Defense EVs if not all 252. In that case, +2 LO Adamant Stone Edge will do 43.19 - 51.04%. There is a 5.08% chance for a 2HKO. Might as well be lower considering its poor accuracy. In turn Landorus-T is guarenteed a 2HKO with EQ even without Investments. (Lando-T loves running Adamant nature, FYI). Even without the Adamant Nature, LO Recoil will do the job.)

    12.)Ferrothorn is pretty much done. A Leech Seed will shorten the lifespan of Sandslash even more with LO. If Sandslash is around 76-77%, it is in range for an assured Power Whip OHKO.

    13.)If Heatran lives the Stone Edge, it can either hit Sandslash for the OHKO with Fire Blast or smash it with Lava plume and potentially cripple it with burn.

    14.)Provided both moves hit, Rotom-W's Hydro Pump is a sure OHKO

    15.)Gyarados is in a sticky situation as well. However thanks to LO recoil, an OHKO with Waterfall becomes a very real possibility.

    16.) If Scarf Latios is able to get the switch in on a SD or EQ, it can scare or OHKO with Surf.

    17.)Your calculation on Magikarp is very incorrect. It always runs Focus Sash and does over 9000 with Judgement.

    18.) Scarfed Thundurus-T or Scarfed Landorus can walk in on EQ or SD and finish it with HP Ice.

    19.) Many of your calculations are a little stupid. No one would switch a Ninetales on Sandslash to have it KO'd unless that would mean winning the weather war and crippling Sandslash for a Venusaur kill. Jirachi, Heatran, or Magnezone have no business throwing themselves into an EQ. And every sane person in the world knows Celebi can take a +2 X-Scissor.........

    Overall, while some of the calcs are impressive, I'm still not too persuaded to throw Sandslash any higher than he is now. Why use him, when we have Landorus who does his job better? Many of your calcs were superficial to say in the least. Although, once again, some were impressive.
  24. Shokwav

    Shokwav

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    203
    I always felt that Sandslash was outclassed by Stoutland if it wasn't spinning, idk maybe the STAB on EQ makes up for it.
  25. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    The calcs were not arguing solely for its placement in a higher tier (as displayed by magnezone and terrakion, etc.)

    They serve to show what sandslash beats, as well as what beats it (thus not glorifying it).


    In the case of #11, scarf landorus t. ;)

    For #18, I believe sandslash outspeeds both of them. (it just misses out on the terrakion bunch and up if im not mistaken in terms of legitimate threats)

    #19- in some cases, it comes down to change the weather now and lose the weather war or get swept completely, in which case ninetales could switch in and have something else now revenge kill. The rest serve to show his ability (although obvious) to get past threats to sand like celebi et al.

    I feel him and lando do different jobs, though. Lando is best at either a) sheer force sweeping or b) scarf spamming earthquake and functioning as a revenge killer as opposed to an all out sweeper

    And in the senses that lando does outclass him, that would be why he is in A rank and slash would be in B. He is not totally outclassed by lando by any means, only in a specific role (ie. immediate power eq spam)



    Stoutland and sandslash are completely different.

    Stout cleans up (IF every steel... and rock... and bulky poke... and etc. are gone) late game, and that is one of the only roles he can fill (lol normal stab).

    Sandslash sets up and powers through many teams

    I suggest trying him @ whoever. The results are much better than they seem on paper

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