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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. masterful

    masterful

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    1) Chople Ttar also loses out on being actually threatening, and still gets OHKOd through Chople after some U-turn/Volt Switch + hazards damage.
    2)I'm not comparing Ttar against Hippo, I'm comparing him to a hypothetical S-rank pokemon. If someone locks themseleves into Ice beam vs a Choice Band Ttar, that player messed up. That has nothing to do with Ttar being S-rank. I'm just saying that it can't safely switch into any of these things. I didn't say Tornadus-T checks Ttar, I'm not retarded, and who in god's name switches Ninetales in on Ttar? If you assume your opponent is always terrible, then yes, Ttar is very good.
    3) Pursuit is good for trapping, I already agreed to that. Does it make Ttar S-rank? No.
    4) Sooooo, being a slower version of Band Terrakion with worse coverage is the argument for Ttar being S-rank? If that's not true, feel free to correct me, but having a Choice band makes a lot of pokes good wallbreakers, and does not in any way make ttar special, especially when it has so few chances to come in and fire off a free attack since Band Ttar is killed by pretty much all the pokes I listed before.
    5) Once again, not saying it's worse than Hippo, just that it's worse than S-rank. Also, Scarf Tyranitar is not even close to being good enough to qualify as a set worthy of pushing a poke into the S tier.

    Ttar has merits, I'm not denying it, but in this meta, he's just not nearly as good as he used to be, and definitely not S rank by any definition.
  2. Vemane

    Vemane

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    What do you mean he can only put up stealth rock or pursuit trap?

    Do you not realize he has SAND STREAM???

    The thing that MAKES him a top-tier OU threat.

    If you /cough/ read any of my posts, you would realize I was not arguing tyrannitar itself as s-tier, I was arguing his ability to summon sandstorm.

    Which is FAR more valuable than deoxys' job (who is quite easy to 2hko before it sets up any spikes, and is easily replacable in many teams)

    So get over tyrannitar itself and look rather at its ability: sandstream, as well as the fact that tyrannitar isn't a bad pokemon in itself (as opposed to some of the other weather starters).
  3. zpattack12

    zpattack12

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    I think the difference is the benefits that rain brings to a team is the big factor. Sand does not do much compared to Rain, which makes Politoed a better supporter.
  4. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Sand Stream is what makes Tyranitar A-tier; Unnerve Tyranitar is completely useless. All Sand Stream does is make Rock-type Pokemon specially hardier (hit them with one of the tiers many, many Fighting attacks and they'll still crumble), increase the damage done by Pokemon with Sand Force (i.e. Landorus), speed up Pokemon with Sand Rush (i.e. Stoutland and LOL Sandslash), and cancel out Leftovers recovery. Compared to things like Rain and even Sun, Sand is relatively limited in options.
  5. Vemane

    Vemane

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    398
    Speaking of which, moving away from tyrannitar for the time being as you are correct in that, at least in this meta, sand is less potent than rain and sun, I would like to nominate Sandslash for b-tier.

    In my opinion, sandslash is a VERY solid b-tier pokemon, and here is why:

    I find that sandslash fits this role, and even beyond.


    [​IMG]
    -Sandslash is quite the potent sweeper, along the lines of a mini-excadrill, in sand.
    -It does not hit as hard as excadrill, but is able to cause quite a large bit of damage (as will be displayed later)
    -It has above average physical bulk, allowing it to take priority attacks decently
    -It is able to attain perfect coverage with a moveset of earthquake, stone edge, and x-scissor.
    -It has 1 greater speed than a nuetral +1 base 100 pokemon when Adamant, meaning that it sits at an extremely nice immediate speed tier, though it is not as difficult to revenge as excadrill
    -Sandslash can run rapid spin, freeing up a slot for another pokemon while being able to beat almost all spinblockers

    [​IMG]
    Sandslash @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - X-Scissor

    Sandslash is immediately powerful, and immediately lighting fast with this set, capable of denting many things and able to force many switches to setup.

    Calcs:
    Show Hide

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Politoed (+Def) : 87.5% - 102.6% 1hko with rocks

    252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 4 HP/0 Def Politoed: 76.71% - 90.68% 25% chance to 1hko with 1 switch into rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/4 Def Ferrothorn: 87.22% - 102.56% 62% chance to 1hko with 1 switch into rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 65.62% - 77.56% Very clean 2hko, 1hko with 30% prior damage

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 113.76% - 123.13% 1hko

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Breloom: 89.66% - 105.36% 75% chance to 1hko with rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/0 Def Rotom-W: 80.59% - 94.74% 50% chance to 1hko after rocks


    These just showcase sandslash's strength against a few threats. Give it some hazards support and the opponent will be hard pressed to find anything to deal with it midgame!
  6. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    My problem lies in that bolded section: outspeeds +1 base 100's. Ordinarily that'd be pretty awesome, but base 100 speed just isn't what it used to be anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if you rely on speed to sweep but can't outspeed +1 base 108's, I don't really have time for you. Keldeo and that Lati twins will easily kill you, either after you score a kill yourself, or as you try and Swords Dance to get a sweep going.

    I really like Sandslash, to be honest, but I don't think he has the moxie to be a threat in any way in this metagame, even if those calcs are pretty impressive. He can Rapid Spin, so I guess that's pretty cool for making him a sort of poor man's Sand team Starmie, but I see little use for him outside of that.
  7. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Nov 26, 2010
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    Which is why I support his movement to b tier

    Alongside the likes of other "slow" threats like jolteon and stoutland (he definitely deserves the same as stout if anything), and zapdos, and toxicroak

    He has a niche and he packs a punch. And requiring only sand support and the elimination of a possible scarfer is not all that much support to ask of a pokemon who can run through teams

    He can't quite make it in a-tier, but he is certainly on the same level as many b-tier pokemon
  8. TaBuu

    TaBuu

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    LOL, I guess it's Sandslash discussion Round 2:
    Sandslash was originally nominated for D-Tier.
    However, PK Gaming felt that Sand Rush, placed our little shrew on a whole new level compared to the other D-Tierers; thus Sandslash went to C.
    Now people want to throw Sandslash, who's niche in this meta is Rapid Spinning and possible sweeping under the influence of Sand, into the B-Tier.
    Let's see:
    Sandslash is quite effective at spinning away hazards when given the right support which basically means Sand.
    What is his crippling flaw? Nothing jumps out to me really. I could be wrong of course, but looking at Sandslash as a whole, nothing jumps out at me like Volcarona's 4x SR Weakness or something...
    However, the fact that Sandslash is only reliable under Sand can prevent him from spinning reliably and consistently; the same applies for SD Sweeping.
    Is Sandslash inferior to other Spinners? Possibly. If Sandteams are looking for a spinner the fact that Sandslash is Ground type will only Compound their Ice/Water/Grass weakness. Starmie can be viewed as a more reliable spinner thanks to the fact that it doesn't need sand and the fact that it doesn't compound Ice/Water Weakness (although Grass compounds...but then again, many Sand Abusers aren't weak to Grass type moves. Plus, Celebi and Ferrothorn are the only real common users of Grass type moves anyways). Starmie is also able to take on most Spinblockers. Jellicents can worn down while Gengars can be smashed with Psyshocks/Psychics.
    Starmie actually has a merit over Sandslash. Natural Cure and Recover. This allows Starmie to switch in and out and spin reliably no matter the situation. Sandslash lacks that kind of luxury. So to answer the question: Sandslash is typically inferior to Pokemon in higher Ranks and also has a flaw that prevents it from doing its job consistently.

    Overall Sandslash really seems to fall in line with the C-Tier Definition. If you still think he's B-Tier Quality persuade me; otherwise I think Sandslash should stay C-Tier
  9. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    I'm not examining him as a spinner, though, moreso as a sweeper. Sandslash's immediate speed and power under sand are almost unmatched, and completely so in b-tier.

    I feel as if the sand support rather places him under "can properly fill an offensive niche" of b-tier, or even "can sweep significant something or whatever" of the a-tier (though his other flaws, most notably his speed and complete reliance on sand hold him back from a).

    As the calcs I posted previously showed, he is extremely powerful offensively, and his base 100 attack is misleading because of his ability to run adamant without any drawbacks really.

    Against offensive teams, he can often 1hko the lot.

    Otherwise, he can 2hko gliscor and skarm at +2, allowing him to destroy even defensively oriented teams.

    The only thing preventing him from sweeping often is other weather, though pairing him with Gothitelle or Dugtrio or running Dual Sand can mitigate this. Or even allowing the weather starter to switch in, only to be 1hkod by earthquake (no matter what occurs, sandslash is normally able to take out at least 2 pokemon)

    Priority is hard pressed to stop him due to his nice physical bulk, giving him further grounds against offensive teams.

    Also, here are calcs against virtually everything in ou. There are no rocks involved (so if rocks are up, things like dragonite are 1hkod):
    Show Hide

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 39.65 - 46.89% (balloon)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 43.82 - 51.54% (balloon)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 44.61 - 52.99%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 47.45 - 55.93%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Gliscor: 54.1 - 63.73%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 58.08 - 68.56%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 59.76 - 70.47%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 216 Def Breloom: 61.25 - 72.18%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 64.32 - 76.04%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 65.28 - 77.2%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Forretress: 65.25 - 77.4%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 66.77 - 78.68%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 69.68 - 82.12%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 69.94 - 82.38%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Hippowdon: 72.61 - 85.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 73.15 - 86.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gliscor: 73.19 - 86.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 74.14 - 87.5%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 76.23 - 89.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 76.47 - 90.09%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 78.12 - 91.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Deoxys-D: 79.6 - 94.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 80.52 - 95.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 81.4 - 96.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 81.63 - 96.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 82.5 - 97.19%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 82.48 - 97.71%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 82.69 - 97.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 83.33 - 98.14%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Salamence: 83.24 - 98.22%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 83.59 - 98.45%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Cloyster: 83.16 - 98.67%

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 84.66 - 100%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 84.66 - 100%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 86.19 - 101.82%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 87.23 - 102.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 87.74 - 103.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 88.08 - 103.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 90.07 - 105.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Latias: 89.28 - 105.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 192 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 90.54 - 106.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 90.78 - 106.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Multiscale Dragonite: 93.49 - 109.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 94.69 - 111.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 136+ Def Vaporeon: 94.8 - 111.68%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 98.06 - 115.21%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 100.82 - 119.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 106 - 124.54%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 106.56 - 125.19%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 109.09 - 128.45%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 212 Def Vaporeon: 109.22 - 128.67%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 110.15 - 129.94%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 110.43 - 130.27%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Salamence: 110.91 - 130.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 111.69 - 132.16%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 112.5 - 133.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 112.82 - 133.52%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 117.94 - 138.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 118.82 - 139.85%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 122.52 - 144.05%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias: 124.17 - 146.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 125 - 147.25%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 124.88 - 147.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 36 Def Gastrodon: 125.8 - 148.13%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 126.13 - 149.06%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 128.38 - 151.3%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 128.53 - 151.52%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Gyarados: 128.7 - 151.66%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 129.28 - 152.2%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 128.21 - 152.28%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Dragonite: 130.56 - 154.14%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 131.57 - 154.79%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 134.21 - 158.11%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 135.41 - 159.89%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latios: 136.53 - 160.71%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 137.1 - 162.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 137.72 - 162.98%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Abomasnow: 138.8 - 163.8%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 139.37 - 164.24%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 139.57 - 164.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 140.15 - 165.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 140.72 - 165.56%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 141.38 - 166.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jirachi: 141.58 - 166.58%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 143.46 - 168.55%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 144.55 - 170.06%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 145.98 - 172.53%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 149.23 - 175.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 149.66 - 176.82%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 150.66 - 177.48%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 151.98 - 178.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 153.1 - 180.43%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 154.6 - 182.51%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 165.23 - 194.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 166.97 - 196.6%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 167.49 - 197.21%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 168.53 - 198.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Venusaur: 168.77 - 199.66%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Celebi: 169.8 - 200.74%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 170.05 - 201.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Gyarados: 171.29 - 201.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 177.47 - 209.15%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 178.8 - 210.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 180.76 - 212.91%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 180.53 - 213.35%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 181.22 - 214.17%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 180.99 - 214.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 183.18 - 215.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 185.92 - 219.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragonite: 186.68 - 219.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 187.72 - 220.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 188 - 221.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 188.51 - 222.35%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 188.68 - 222.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 189.42 - 222.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 191.83 - 226.48%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 204.12 - 240.65%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 204.7 - 241.83%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 204.96 - 242.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 205.64 - 243.52%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-T: 207.02 - 244.14%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 207.26 - 244.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 208.69 - 246.15%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 208.83 - 246.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 209.64 - 247.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 214.68 - 253.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 214.8 - 253.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Tentacruel: 222.8 - 262.08%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 226.6 - 267.54%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 227.41 - 267.91%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 227.27 - 268.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magikarp: 230.21 - 270.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 231.33 - 273%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 241.81 - 285.67%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 260.68 - 307.43%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 262.34 - 308.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 263.15 - 309.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Volcarona: 271.96 - 321.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 281.42 - 332%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Toxicroak: 294.56 - 347.55%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 299.45 - 352.44%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 32 Def Dugtrio: 301.42 - 354.97%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 307.53 - 361.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 306.85 - 361.99%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 316.98 - 374.05%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 343.2 - 404.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magikarp: 345.05 - 405.49%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 350 - 411.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 351.19 - 413.31%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 357.79 - 421.1%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 368.56 - 433.77%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 368.79 - 435.1%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Magnezone: 368.89 - 435.17%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 384.93 - 453.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 385.93 - 454.94%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 391.12 - 460.4%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 419.08 - 493.16%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 429.88 - 506.64%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 432.47 - 510.33%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 433.33 - 511.63%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 457.4 - 539.19%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 458.82 - 540.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 469.77 - 553.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 472.99 - 556.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 475.17 - 561.03%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 488.65 - 576.95%
  10. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Haha, wow. You've brought in quite the extensive list of calculations haven't you?
    Well at this point I'm not too sure where to place Sandslash. Not A for sure, but possibly B...I'll leave the ranking to the others. In this post I will simply act as the opposition and provide the facts:

    I still feel maintaining Sand is not the easiest thing in the world. You can run Goth. which is probably the most effective. Running Dual Sand will just triple up on the Grass and Water Weakness and leave you pretty limited in options. Not to mention Rain and Sun can trample the team.

    Next, I want to make a comment on your calculations. First off, kudos to you for actually taking the time to do all of them. However, many of them are relatively obvious and a waste of space. Yet others aren't completely thought out:

    1.)If Magnezone is on a Balloon and you proceed to Stone Edge it, one you better hope it doesn't miss lol. But two, Magnezone(252 SpA) is free to massively dent Sandslash with either HP Ice (85.22 - 100.34% Keep in mind the LO Recoil) or Flash Cannon (72.5 - 85.91%) and then next turn, switch out.

    2.)Air Balloon Terrakion will take the Stone Edge, provided it doesn't miss, and then proceed to mash it with Close Combat (61.85 - 73.19%). The smart player will usually choose to switch out Terrakion and prepare to revenge the weakened Sandslash.

    3.)Skarmory is not a definite 2HKO. It can either Roost back its Health, set up Hazards, or Whirlwind the Sandslash out of the field, eliminating its boosts.

    4.)Gliscor can tank the Stone Edge in a similar manner. Gliscor can proceed to use Substitute and Protect. A Toxic can be thrown out to status Sandslash and when factoring in the Toxic damage and LO Recoil, Sandslash's lifespan is greatly shortened.

    5.)Hippowdon can manage to take a hit and Roar out the Sandslash and potentially Slack Off on the dragged out Pokemon.

    6.)Poison Heal Breloom, a very rare sight, is able to Spore on Sandslash and proceed to set up.

    7.)A +2 LO Adamant X-Scissor on Techniloom has a 18.75% chance to OHKO. This means a good majority of the time, it can survive and proceed to either Spore or Bullet Seed it to death.

    8.)Defensive Donphan is able to land a Toxic on Sandslash, shortening its playing time on the field and facilitating a Revenge Kill. It can also Roar out Sandslash.

    9.)The Sub+DD Variant of Dragonite can simply Sub+DD+Roost on Sandslash, banking on the eventual miss. (However, Sandslash will probably win this situation out)

    10.)The DD Variant will also lose. However a single Outrage will do 70% minimum and 82% max. Once again, factoring in LO Recoil, this will leave Sandslash very weakened.

    11.)Landorus-T almost always runs max HP and almost always runs some form of Defense EVs if not all 252. In that case, +2 LO Adamant Stone Edge will do 43.19 - 51.04%. There is a 5.08% chance for a 2HKO. Might as well be lower considering its poor accuracy. In turn Landorus-T is guarenteed a 2HKO with EQ even without Investments. (Lando-T loves running Adamant nature, FYI). Even without the Adamant Nature, LO Recoil will do the job.)

    12.)Ferrothorn is pretty much done. A Leech Seed will shorten the lifespan of Sandslash even more with LO. If Sandslash is around 76-77%, it is in range for an assured Power Whip OHKO.

    13.)If Heatran lives the Stone Edge, it can either hit Sandslash for the OHKO with Fire Blast or smash it with Lava plume and potentially cripple it with burn.

    14.)Provided both moves hit, Rotom-W's Hydro Pump is a sure OHKO

    15.)Gyarados is in a sticky situation as well. However thanks to LO recoil, an OHKO with Waterfall becomes a very real possibility.

    16.) If Scarf Latios is able to get the switch in on a SD or EQ, it can scare or OHKO with Surf.

    17.)Your calculation on Magikarp is very incorrect. It always runs Focus Sash and does over 9000 with Judgement.

    18.) Scarfed Thundurus-T or Scarfed Landorus can walk in on EQ or SD and finish it with HP Ice.

    19.) Many of your calculations are a little stupid. No one would switch a Ninetales on Sandslash to have it KO'd unless that would mean winning the weather war and crippling Sandslash for a Venusaur kill. Jirachi, Heatran, or Magnezone have no business throwing themselves into an EQ. And every sane person in the world knows Celebi can take a +2 X-Scissor.........

    Overall, while some of the calcs are impressive, I'm still not too persuaded to throw Sandslash any higher than he is now. Why use him, when we have Landorus who does his job better? Many of your calcs were superficial to say in the least. Although, once again, some were impressive.
  11. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    I always felt that Sandslash was outclassed by Stoutland if it wasn't spinning, idk maybe the STAB on EQ makes up for it.
  12. Vemane

    Vemane

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    The calcs were not arguing solely for its placement in a higher tier (as displayed by magnezone and terrakion, etc.)

    They serve to show what sandslash beats, as well as what beats it (thus not glorifying it).


    In the case of #11, scarf landorus t. ;)

    For #18, I believe sandslash outspeeds both of them. (it just misses out on the terrakion bunch and up if im not mistaken in terms of legitimate threats)

    #19- in some cases, it comes down to change the weather now and lose the weather war or get swept completely, in which case ninetales could switch in and have something else now revenge kill. The rest serve to show his ability (although obvious) to get past threats to sand like celebi et al.

    I feel him and lando do different jobs, though. Lando is best at either a) sheer force sweeping or b) scarf spamming earthquake and functioning as a revenge killer as opposed to an all out sweeper

    And in the senses that lando does outclass him, that would be why he is in A rank and slash would be in B. He is not totally outclassed by lando by any means, only in a specific role (ie. immediate power eq spam)



    Stoutland and sandslash are completely different.

    Stout cleans up (IF every steel... and rock... and bulky poke... and etc. are gone) late game, and that is one of the only roles he can fill (lol normal stab).

    Sandslash sets up and powers through many teams

    I suggest trying him @ whoever. The results are much better than they seem on paper
  13. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Mhm, I see your point.
    First, I just want to let you know that I have played with Sandslash before. It's not garbage (like D-Rank) but...once the novelty wears off, one can see Sandslash is quite the average shrew.

    Second, Adamant Sandslash under the Sand hits a max of 458. Scarfed Lando and Thund-T hit 496. This is why Jolly is a preferred nature as it can hit a max of 502. So some of your 2HKOs might turn into 3HKOs or lower.... :/

    Third, Scarfed Lando-T is pretty rare haha. But if you see one then hey. There's a kill for ya.

    Fourth, hopefully I have got this across to you but Sandslash's inability to OHKO leaves it vunerable to taking massive damage. Not to mention LO Recoil. This means in practicality Sandslash's sweep might not last for so long.....

    Fifth, Sandslash is pretty intimidating. However as the analysis says "It's also worth noting that Sandslash, while extremely fast in a sandstorm, can still be outpaced by a good portion of OU, namely Choice Scarf Latios and Starmie, and OHKOed by the appropriate move... In the end, checking Sandslash will boil down to exploiting its mediocre offensive stats. Don't be intimidated by Sandslash's Speed stat as, with the appropriate Pokemon, it can be swiftly brought down through calm and intelligent play."

    Finally, I'd like to throw in a little argument for the sand genie. Landorus is more popular with Special LO and Choice Scarf...however his SD sets are still existent. His sets are even more deadlier as Landorus has Sand Force and Life Orb to pack a punch. Better yet, Landorus can use Gravity to smash through, would be Counters. Sadly the shrew lacks such luxury :/

    Sandslash has potential....if it were given a bit of a boost. Easy to "gimp", relatively easy to wear down and stall out, short "life-span". All of these factors realllllyyy hurt Sandslash as a sweeper. He definitely is better in practice than on paper (I speak from experience). However, he still just doesn't have it in him to make himself a top-tier threat.

    So rankings? I'll leave that up to the other people to decide :)
  14. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
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    I disagree!

    | Landorus-Therian |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilties |
    | Intimidate 100.000% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Leftovers 46.973% |
    | Choice Scarf 25.081%

    Fairly common, but it is unimportant, and so I digress :P

    Concerning adamant/jolly:
    I see. If anything, it still is faster than the likes of keldeo, terrakion, etc. which certainly has some merit when adamant. :)

    By the time sandslash does go out though (midgame/late game) the things it can't ko should be weakened to the point where they are indeed ko-able, something that isn't too difficult in sandstorm after quite a bit of time.

    I don't like how it says "a good portion of ou," as I find it misleading. It is outsped by the majority of /scarved/ pokemon, but that is the case with virtually every non-scarved mon! So I don't feel it should be held as too much of a detriment.

    While landorus's sd set is stronger, it, unlike sandslash, is outsped by a good portion of NON scarved mons, making it very difficult to run in this meta (though against defensive teams, it works wonders)

    And finally, try not to get involved with picturing him as a top-tier threat, because that isn't what I'm trying to portray him as. I'm trying to put him alongside the likes of toxicroak and zapdos and co. (very obviously not top-tier threats!), not in the a or s tiers. ^_^
  15. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Aight well we've presented our cases well enough haha n_n
    Its up to PK Gaming and the others to decide the rank of Slash here haha.
    B-Tier doesn't sound bad although I won't be surprsed if it doesn't climb lol

    And of course. I know he isn't top-tier. I was disgressing myself so I apologize for that. Anyways, Sandslash might see some more usage when Rain takes a step down. Otherwise..... o.o

    Leftovers 46.973% |
    | Choice Scarf 25.081%

    I mean... Leftovers is nearly Double man... ;)
  16. Avira

    Avira

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    I think that Zapdos should move down to C-Tier. It's just a specialized check to Tornadus-T that gets destroyed by pretty much every other relevant special attacker. I guess it also checks Scizor, but there are better checks to the most commonly seen Pokemon in OU than Zapdos.
  17. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    Ok, I'm seriously tired of people talking shit about Zapdos. No one even considered him a bad poke until people started arguing about him on the suspect thread. Zapdos is by no means a bad mon, and when it receives Lightningrod it will be even more solid.
  18. Nova

    Nova Samsung Alpaca
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    The problem with Zapdos is that although it is a solid Pokemon overall, it's outclassed by other Pokemon in OU in its main roles. As a Special sweeper, Thundurus-T is more efficient with a much higher Special Attack stat, 1 more point in base Speed that is very crucial in outspeeding the numerous Pokemon sitting at base 100 Speed, and access to Nasty Plot which sends his Special Attack soaring, being able to 2HKO Blissey with some hazards down. As a Specially Defensive wall and primary check to Tornadus-T, Jirachi and Rotom-W outperform Zapdos in this role. Jirachi has many more resistances than Zapdos and access to Stealth Rock and Wish to support the rest of the team. Rotom-W has only one weakness that is not a very common attacking type (Grass), better checks Rain teams than Zapdos does due to a resistance to Water type attacks, and can more freely abuse Volt Switch as he does not have a Stealth Rock weakness. Rotom-W can usually handle Scizor as well, due to 4x resistance to Bullet Punch and being able to outspeed Scizor and hit the bug with Hydro Pump or cripple it with Will-o-Wisp before it can U-turn. As a Physical wall, Landorus-T outclasses Zapdos with its Intimidate ability and ability to also check Terrakion. Zapdos is a great Pokemon, but typically there are other Pokemon that can perform the role Zapdos is performing more effectively.
  19. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    I'm no big expert on Zapdos, but I have utilized the big bird in the past. Zapdos, to me, was a pretty situational Pokemon to be honest. Sometimes it'd really pull its weight and be effective, while other times, it kinda lacked a bit and was almost like the dead weight of the team.
    Zapdos isn't a bad Pokemon. But he's far from superb.
    In my opinion, Zapdos would fall under the category of niche Pokemon. If your team struggles against certain Pokemon, and Zapdos is able to take them on all day, by all means utilize him. However don't expect Zapdos to always do his job. For example, he's no Skarmory or Blissey. Usually, these two defensive behemoths can be thrown in and are able to tank the majority of the metagame. Zapdos should only be used take on certain threats and shouldn't be used in a manner where he isn't successful.
  20. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

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    Just a little nitpick here, but since Keldeo is a suspect this round shouldn't it be S-rank? Cuz right now the tier definitions do not coincide with the current suspect test.
  21. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    IMO, Keldeo doesn't deserve its suspect status and chances are it's not going to be banned. Torn-T has a good chance of moving up to Ubers, but Keldeo is just a special variant of Terrakion (that gains a massive boost in Rain) and has reliable checks/counters in Lati@s, Jellicent, etc. I like Keldeo where it is, and there's no point in moving it to S-Tier simply because of it being suspect.
  22. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    While I think almost all of us don't think Keldeo is broken what-so-ever, it is still an amazing attacker and an absolute monster under the rain, the specs set even has a tiny chance to 2HKO its counters like Celebi and Amoonguss with hydropump in the rain. Now that's power. The scarf set can give offensive teams problems, and the calm mind and specs set screw over any defensive team without a direct counter. Again, I don't think its anywhere near broken, but it certainly is a force to reckon with. It may be S-tier worthy in its own right ignoring its current suspect status.
  23. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I feel as if terrakion is S-Tier, than keldeo more than deserves it. Whether or not it fits the description is one thing, but it most certainly performs on a same, or greater, level than terrakion.
  24. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    Keldeo and Hippowdon for S-Tier.
  25. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I agree Keldeo, however, Hippowdon is not S-Tier material. It is washed away by the Water-type attacks running around, it either has bad special bulk or worse physical bulk that don't let it counter things like Terrakion as effectively (this depends on where you invest EVs), and it lacks the same offensive presence that Tyranitar has. While it's true that Hippowdon hits very hard for a wall, unfortunately there are many things immune to Earthquake these days. Although Hippowdon has reliable recovery, and doesn't care about Dugtrio unlike Tyranitar, Hippowdon unfortunately has some flaws that prevent him from being solid S-Tier.
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