The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"

[Critical_Hax]

Those teams being stall teams.

I haven't played on the ladder for about a week (Not on the leaderboard anymore either =( ) but I'm pretty sure placing Scarf Primape on a Stall team is a bad Idea. Primeape can't take anything but resisted Hits, or Sleep.

I'm sure a particular type of stall could employ it, but why not just use a Bulky Sleep Talker, it fits better with a stall team.

And Scarf Primape actually makes a decent lead. Not only for Darkrai, but it can outrun Deo-A Leads, get them down to 1% then switch to something to absorb whatever they throw at you... which is much easier to predict considering Primape is fairly Light and Superpower is a bad move to fire of Randomly, especially when all you've scouted is the lead (which granted is probably scarfed)

And for anyone who says an UU that has a niche in Ubers sucks, you're clearly not using whatever it is properly...

 

[ZandgaiaX]

I haven't played on the ladder for about a week (Not on the leaderboard anymore either =( ) but I'm pretty sure placing Scarf Primape on a Stall team is a bad Idea. Primeape can't take anything but resisted Hits, or Sleep.

I'm sure a particular type of stall could employ it, but why not just use a Bulky Sleep Talker, it fits better with a stall team.

And Scarf Primape actually makes a decent lead. Not only for Darkrai, but it can outrun Deo-A Leads, get them down to 1% then switch to something to absorb whatever they throw at you... which is much easier to predict considering Primape is fairly Light and Superpower is a bad move to fire of Randomly, especially when all you've scouted is the lead (which granted is probably scarfed)

And for anyone who says an UU that has a niche in Ubers sucks, you're clearly not using whatever it is properly...

This is why Scizor makes such a great partner ;) that way I have never problems with leads (except maybe Diagla, which I haven't seen much as of yet) Scizor also makes a great u-turn partner against wobba:
Primeape/Scizor: U-turn to Giratina-O (My ghost)
Wobba: Counter fails
Giratina-O: Shadowball hopefully KO's
And then either Wobba is dead OR Wobba usually then encores and Primeape U-turns again.
Yes Wobba is counterable. It's not easy, but it's possible.

 

[Pirika]

This is why Scizor makes such a great partner ;) that way I have never problems with leads (except maybe Diagla, which I haven't seen much as of yet) Scizor also makes a great u-turn partner against wobba:
Primeape: U-turn to Giratina-O (My ghost)
Wobba: Counter fails
Giratina-O: Switch to Scizor
Wobba: *Usually* Encore
Scizor: U-turn
And then either Wobba is dead OR Wobba usually then encores and Primeape U-turns again.
Yes Wobba is counterable. It's not easy, but it's possible.

How will you switch to Scizor if Giratina-O is trapped by Shadow Tag?

 

[ZandgaiaX]

How will you switch to Scizor if Giratina-O is trapped by Shadow Tag?

Lol mistake of me there xD I mean shadowball.....

 

[blasphemy1]

Yeah, you can't really counter Wobbuffet, whether you think you can or not. It will always be able to trap your pokemon, unless you run Shed Shell on everything(which just means it has done its job anyways).

 

[tripe]

I haven't played on the ladder for about a week (Not on the leaderboard anymore either =( ) but I'm pretty sure placing Scarf Primape on a Stall team is a bad Idea. Primeape can't take anything but resisted Hits, or Sleep.

I'm sure a particular type of stall could employ it, but why not just use a Bulky Sleep Talker, it fits better with a stall team.

And Scarf Primape actually makes a decent lead. Not only for Darkrai, but it can outrun Deo-A Leads, get them down to 1% then switch to something to absorb whatever they throw at you... which is much easier to predict considering Primape is fairly Light and Superpower is a bad move to fire of Randomly, especially when all you've scouted is the lead (which granted is probably scarfed)

And for anyone who says an UU that has a niche in Ubers sucks, you're clearly not using whatever it is properly...

The only reason Primeape is even there is to counter Darkrai, no other. Darkrai is such a threat to stall teams, that Primeape is actually viable on said team.

 

[bojangles]

We need a new project Ubers (and what is YVD? It sounds like something I could get into) where leaderboarders teach newbies (not to be confused with noobs) the art of Ubers. Of course, along the way, we could try out UU/OU pokemon in Ubers, but the main goal would be to get more people into Ubers. I personally got into Ubers because when I first joined shoddy battle, I somehow felt that Gen. Empoleon was some kind of a god (hence my screen name), and just thought "I must play Ubers". Role models are good things to have when attracting new players. The Uber metagame deserves more than this. Anyone up for this?

P.S. *Primeape is usable, and fits on certain teams, get over it*

The reason that there hasn't been a new Project Ubers thread is because of the massive amounts of theorymon that went into it. Sure, a lot of great things came out of it, namely Lucario (although it can be said that the popularization of Lucario would have come even if the thread didn't occur). However, people we're seriously posting stuff like Umbreon (eh, sort of works), Gallade, Lanturn, and Bellyzard (what?). Most of these things obviously had not been tested. All of this being said, experimenting with "silly" Pokémon can be fun/informative. I know for a fact that Theorymon has used team (that work) with Delibird leads. However, testing absurd things (Bellyzard) would obviously not be logical.
There is a pseudo-Project Ubers Part 2 in C&C. A couple of the Ubers battlers (Theorymon, Fireburn, myself, and others) are writing analyses for non-Ubers Pokémon. I myself am writing them for Gengar and Kabutops, and I can tell you that both of them work great (although they have to be used in a certain way).

i really like what general empoleon has done for the uber metagame, popularizing it and being a "role model" to some people, but he's not THAT good people. beating him isn't that big of a deal. I don't mean to offend him or anything,its just there are plenty of better battlers

P.S. im retiring for now as engineering physics is kicking my asshole with hours and hours of work each night and i cant really fit in time for shoddy anymore :(

When I was but a wee battler, Gen was pretty much my icon too. However, you can't overlook other great battlers, like Theorymon, Jibaku, Maniaclyrasist, Train Man, tripe (posting here!), reachzero, Fabbles, and a lot more.

Discussion closed of Primeape ;P he's usable then,

Primeape is most certainly useful (theres an analysis in the works). However, you must remember that its purpose is very specific. Its a Choice Scarf user, and it also counters Darkrai like a champ. However, you must keep in mind that Primeape is quite frail, and therefore can be set up upon (which obviously isn't good). All in all, would I put Primeape on my team if i only needed a revenge killer? Probably not (I'd go with Dialga, Palkia, or even Gengar). Would I put Primeape on my team if I needed a Darkrai counter and a Choice Scarfer in one? Sure.
tripe is also right in that it can play pivotal roles on stall teams. I also like using Calm Mind + Rest Talk Kyogre for this role, since it can Sleep Talk when Darkrai Dark Voids, and then use the time to set up or even outright kill Darkrai.

 

[cmurph]

Resttalk Kyogre is an extremely unreliable counter to darkrai that use substitute. You only have a 1/3 chance of breaking that sub, and it's probably even worse than that cause you might wake up on a turn that you sleep talk

 

[mtr]

Yeah, I once mistakenly used Rest-talk Kyogre as a Darkrai counter and got swept.

If you don't feel like fitting in Primeape or Heracross, Sleep Talk Choiced Scizor can be handy in a pinch, threatening Darkrai with U-turn or Superpower, both of which OHKO, or Bullet Punch, which 2HKOes (note: this isn't my idea, I know I stole it from somewhere, I just don't know where). Other than that, deal with it like you deal with Breloom, it's just harder.

 

[Pirika]

Sleep Talk Heracross is my favorite Darkrai counter. Unlike Primape, Heracross can hit really hard other ubers once Guts is activated. Heracross is also useful to counter Mewtwo (Most Mewtwos don't have Psychic and Heracross can easily survive a +1 Ice Beam), Mew (Heracross OHKO maxHP/0def Mew without Guts) and Deoxis-d (always OHKO with Guts activated).

 

[Matthew]

i really like what general empoleon has done for the uber metagame, popularizing it and being a "role model" to some people, but he's not THAT good people. beating him isn't that big of a deal. I don't mean to offend him or anything,its just there are plenty of better battlers

P.S. im retiring for now as engineering physics is kicking my asshole with hours and hours of work each night and i cant really fit in time for shoddy anymore :(

haha, no offense taken, there are much better battlers than me (jibaku and reachzero for example!) but really you don't "sign up" to be a role model, it just sort of happens. Really if you want to popularize the Uber tier do what I did, write interesting Warstories which made the tier seem like fun (which it is), make RMTs that show not all Uber teams are the same exact six bog standard pokemon. Really if you're good, and try to make an effort then you will be looked up to by people.

 

[tripe]

haha, no offense taken, there are much better battlers than me (jibaku and reachzero for example!) but really you don't "sign up" to be a role model, it just sort of happens. Really if you want to popularize the Uber tier do what I did, write interesting Warstories which made the tier seem like fun (which it is), make RMTs that show not all Uber teams are the same exact six bog standard pokemon. Really if you're good, and try to make an effort then you will be looked up to by people.

Gen is right, but we should form a community project, sort of the like the Battling 101 program. Ubers can be a scary metagame to get into without guidance, but I think with a tutor, most people should be fine.

 

[locopoke]

battling 101 already offers ubers tutoring so i dont see the point in a community project. ubers really isn't that "scary" to start playing without guidance, i had an easy time learning it. and we dont deserve a subforum like LC because ubers is dead. no new pokemon are being added to the metagame until a 5th gen and nothing game changing has happened recently (ho-oh w/ BB is NOT game changing), and nothing WILL happen anytime soon. there are very few undiscovered strategies (if any at all). there's nothing left to talk about really which is why this thread hasn't had much intelligent conversation lately. we know primeape works in ubers that's not new

to be quite honest i think people are trying to make more out of ubers than there really is. i love ubers but what i'm saying is true

 

[mtr]

Well, we haven't had much documentation of Trick Room strategies. It might be worth discussing them, as in a metagame as speed-oriented as Ubers, they've proven useful. Of course, I'm going by Pirika's recent success, but we could have more discussion on such teams and how they work.

 

[Critical_Hax]

Sleep Talk Kyogre is not a Darkrai Counter, I never said it was. It makes a decent check, being able to OHKO with Rain Boosted Surf with little investment and a positive nature, I know the standard is easily capable of doing it. Besides, Darkrai, as its analysis says, is most vulnerable when sleep clause is in effect.

As for Darkrai carrying Substitute, yes, it is very dangerous, but Darkrai has moveslot syndrome on non-choice sets. Assuming a non-choice Darkrai (one could argue trick in itself is a threat to stall teams) has one of the following moves, Dark Void, Dark Pulse, Nasty Plot, Focus Blast and Substitute, regardless of what it chooses to omit, it will still have problems. Dark Void is what makes Darkrai threatening, allowing it a free turn of set up, Dark Pulse is a required STAB, Nasty Plot allows Darkrai to use that free turn to its full potential, Focus Blast is required for Type coverage and throwing a sub into the mix means losing on one of the previous moves, which restricts Darkrai. Without Focus Blast, it'll lose to Blissey, Dialga and T-Tar bar some Hax, dropping Nasty Plot means it has no way to take advantage of the free turn, other than hoping to nail something on the switch and dropping the other 2 moves go against Darkrai's very nature. Once you see the sub, even if you fail to break it, you'll know its limited in what it can do. Besides, the non-CM resttalkers do fine, with a 2/3 chance to break the sub, slightly less factoring the 1st turn wake

Hm, I think a new Project Uber could be useful. Sadly, I don't think I'll participate, I haven't even shoddied for a while, or even used my DS for anything lately short of the Shaymin Event, but it'd be great to see Ubers diversify a bit. Hell, if I can get some spare time, I'll even do some testing.

Many players also come up from OU trying to Counter everything. Ubers isn't about counters, thats why everything is Uber, its too much for almost everything to handle. A good Uber Team checks as many threats as possible.

As for Wobb, not counterable, but I get what you mean by working around it. If I use a strong U-Turner, I always pack a ghost. Still nothing counters Wobb, as nothing likes being Encored at the very least. Also, putting unpredictable moves on something is always a good way to eliminate Wobb. One of my teams has Roar on Latias (I use it mainly as a lure to ease a Darkrai Sweep and my other Lure already has HP Fire), which can allow me to escape Wobb's clutches, just because people predict a Meteor

 

[shrang]

Here's another NU/UU Pokemon that could potentially do well in Ubers

Victreebel (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk/208 Spd/48 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Leaf Blade
- Weather Ball/Hidden Power Fire/Synthesis

This set takes advantage of Groudon's everlasting sun to boost Victreebel's speed and it also takes advantage of a new toy Victreebel received in HG/SS, Weather Ball. Weather Ball is now a 100BP move in the sun, meaning it can be quite the mixed sweeper in Ubers. Basically the point is to get in Victreebel safely in the sun (Which could be difficult due to it's crappy defenses) and Swords Dance up. A +2 Leaf Blade can do a lot of damage, and Sucker Punch can kill things that think it can revenge Victreebel, like Lati@s, Mewtwo, etc. Weather Ball is the preferred last move, as it takes full advantage of the balmy weather. HP Fire is there for consistent damage without sun (Although Victreebel won't get far w/o sun anyway), and Synthesis is there if you want to heal (But you lose stacks of type coverage). The EVs given are pretty simple, max Attack is obvious, the Naive nature and Speed EVs given allow Victreebel to outspeed Choice Scarf Garchomp in the sun, leaving only Lati@s, Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Mewtwo and Deoxys Formes wielding Choice Scarves that are faster than it, Lati@s, Mewtwo and Deoxys are all OHKO'd by +2 Sucker Punch if they think they can revenge you.

 

[Darkmalice]

Here's another NU/UU Pokemon that could potentially do well in Ubers

Victreebel (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk/208 Spd/48 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Leaf Blade
- Weather Ball/Hidden Power Fire/Synthesis

This set takes advantage of Groudon's everlasting sun to boost Victreebel's speed and it also takes advantage of a new toy Victreebel received in HG/SS, Weather Ball. Weather Ball is now a 100BP move in the sun, meaning it can be quite the mixed sweeper in Ubers. Basically the point is to get in Victreebel safely in the sun (Which could be difficult due to it's crappy defenses) and Swords Dance up. A +2 Leaf Blade can do a lot of damage, and Sucker Punch can kill things that think it can revenge Victreebel, like Lati@s, Mewtwo, etc. Weather Ball is the preferred last move, as it takes full advantage of the balmy weather. HP Fire is there for consistent damage without sun (Although Victreebel won't get far w/o sun anyway), and Synthesis is there if you want to heal (But you lose stacks of type coverage). The EVs given are pretty simple, max Attack is obvious, the Naive nature and Speed EVs given allow Victreebel to outspeed Choice Scarf Garchomp in the sun, leaving only Lati@s, Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Mewtwo and Deoxys Formes wielding Choice Scarves that are faster than it, Lati@s, Mewtwo and Deoxys are all OHKO'd by +2 Sucker Punch if they think they can revenge you.

Shiftry can pull this set off better. It gets STAB on Sucker Punch, and it has higher base Speed. Weather Ball isn't needed. Grass Knot or Leaf Storm will do more damage to Groudon and other Pokemon assuming both it and Weather Ball hit them neutral. The two Pokemon that you would actually use Weather Ball on are Scizor and Forretress, but HP Fire deals with them anyway. Shiftry is also more unpredictable, as it can use Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, and your opponent has to be careful of a possible Explosion threat. Shiftry can also switch into Groudon's Earthquake once should the need arise (I don't always recommend this), but Victreebel cannot do this.

 

[mtr]

Victreebel also gets a blisteringly fast Sleep Powder. Use it!

I was testing a special Victreebel yesterday on a Sun team, but it was only mediocre. It can clear Toxic Spikes, though, which is powerful against stall, and thus it can help out your stallbreakers, such as Palkia. Shiftry...I'm not sure about the Swords Dancer. I mentioned it in OO, but the Nasty Plotter has an easier team breaking through threats like the Giratina twins, and all the Swords Dancer has over it is a chance to beat Blissey (Dialga is beaten by Focus Blast anyways if you want it dead). In exchange, it is walled and defeated by Giratina and possibly even Lugia (Faint Attack and Sucker Punch aren't really great STAB...), so odds are that there are better Swords Dancers out there. Try Kabutops in the Rain.

And Jirachi is really underrated in Ubers. That thing is painfully annoying to deal with.

 

[Private Piplup]

Kingdra is actually quite underrated in Ubers. Double STAB Waterfall and STAB Outrage and Draco Meteor along with 500 Speed (Swift Swim) mean that Kingdra often doesn't need to Dragon Dance. With a Lonely nature and 196 Attack EV's, a Life Orbed Waterfall in Rain OHKO's Darkrai after Stealth Rocks, Draco Meteor with 136 Spe Attk EV's KO's Giratina-a after a little residual damage (It does ~80% to a 252 HP 0 SpDef Giratina-a). Defensive Groudon are 2hko'd by Draco Meteor, so it can't repeatedly switch in and ruin your rain. Outrage 2hko's Cro-Ogre iirc, and after a Dragon Dance, your only hope is a Shedinja (lol).

 

[cmurph]

Yeah Kingdra's quite deadly. I've found DD TTar to be pretty good as well as a late game sweeper once Mewtwo,scizor, and a few scarfers have been removed. I frequently manage to get 2 dragon dances in because people underestimate how bulky it is.

 

[Private Piplup]

The only complaint I have about Tyranitar is that even after 2 Dragon Dances, it's still outsped by a Scarfed Palkia. Also, it is stopped cold by Groudon, but Wobbuffet goes a long way towards both of those problems. What moves do you run? I use Dragon Dance, Crunch, Earthquake, Taunt, but I find Taunt to be rather useless. I'm considering putting Dragon Claw or Stone Edge in its place. Plus, with Sandstorm up, Garchomp is even more deadly.

 

[zorbees]

The only complaint I have about Tyranitar is that even after 2 Dragon Dances, it's still outsped by a Scarfed Palkia. Also, it is stopped cold by Groudon, but Wobbuffet goes a long way towards both of those problems. What moves do you run? I use Dragon Dance, Crunch, Earthquake, Taunt, but I find Taunt to be rather useless. I'm considering putting Dragon Claw or Stone Edge in its place. Plus, with Sandstorm up, Garchomp is even more deadly.

Erm, even 252 EV Adamant DDTar outspeeds Palkia after one DD and ScarfPalkia after two, so I don't know where you got that from.

Palkia = 328 Speed
TTar = 221 Speed x1.5 = 331 Speed

Jolly DDTar, however, gets the jump on Garchomp, Lati@s, and Lugia after one DD, and ScarfChomp after two.

 

[Myzozoa]

no he is right, 221 X 2 =442. Scarf palkia will be 492 assuming max speed. SO scarf palkia will outspeed jolly or adamant DD tar even after 2 DDs.

 

[cmurph]

I've been running Crunch/Earthquake/Stone Edge. But yeah I've been using Wobb support. The thing is, Scarf Palkia can't OHKO TTar without Hydro Pump I don't think

 

[zorbees]

Ah yeah, my bad, I was thinking that the second DD would multiply by 1.5 again but that isn't the case.