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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Frog

    Frog

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    Why are normal arceus and kyogre above others? Kyogre really kind of sucks in this metagame,it can kind of sit and scald, with offensive sets never really working with the popularity of latias and Latios, as well as specs dialga becoming a thing and ferrothron and giratina and arceus water and some people use Palkia... Groudon is way better IMO because of rocks and better wall. Kyogre isn't bad by any means but it no longer has the super uber air to it, it is no longer an elite.
  2. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
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    To be completely fair, it's not because deoxy-n is bad by any means. It's just too heavily outclassed by deoxys-a/s which it's just a hybrid of the two but not a good one. For a supporting/lead role deoxy-s does a far better job and as an attacker deoxys-a does a far better job. So deoxys-n becomes absolute because of its other forms.
  3. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    You never explained by Normal arceus is bad. Anyway, kyogre is S Rank because most pokemon in ubers are weak to water/electric/ice. Kyogre also gets scald, meaning that it is a pretty good wall. The final selling point is it's ability to set up rain. This ability allows pokemon like ferrothorn to get such high usage. Also kyogre has a very limied amout of counters as dragon and water types are hit hard by ice beam and thunder respectively. Unlike most pokemon, kyogre is a very versatile pokemon despite it's limitations
    Also I forgot to mention that deoxys n is outclassed by its other forms.
  4. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
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    An incredible 150 base SpA + drizzle + stab water moves means every one of kyogre's attacks will hit like a truck. With a choice specs there is nothing commonly seen in ubers (screw the pink blobs) that isn't straight out ohko'd or at worst 2hko'd after sr by a full power water spout (though fully specially defensive latias comes close). Or if it's not at full health you have surf/hydro pump as a secondary stab move. It also has incredible coverage with 100% accurate thunders and ice beam. It also has the versatile enough to run different sets like sub/resttalk cm, or para support. Out of all the "checks" you listed only lati@s and arceus water (which most people don't use in favor of ghost/steel/normal arceus) aren't cleanly 2hko'd by kyogre's scarfed set and the proper coverage move. These traits push kyogre well and above the uber tier, hence why kyogre is still the king of ubers since it's faithful release.
  5. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    It is also worth mentioning the extent to which permanent rain affects the metagame. For one it opens up a considerable number of niche Pokemon for use (Kabutops, Kingdra, etc), and the way rain affects Steel-types greatly changes how Ubers is played. Latios struggles against Ferrothorn in rain, Giratina-O has trouble with Forretress in rain, etc. Dragon-types as a whole are generally much easier to handle when ya 50/50ish chance of eating either a Draco Meteor or a Fire Blast isn't quite as punishing. And there is of course the move Thunder; almost nothing in Ubers runs (or should be running) Thunderbolt, because Thunder is so much better and Kyogre is everywhere. And on top of all this Kyogre is a top-notch offensive threat; Specs will utterly smash any stall that isn't prepared for it, Scarf acts as a potent revenge killer or cleaner, and Kyogre can even function as a paralysis lure. And Kyogre is still bulky enough to take on defensive roles easily.

    Frankly you really haven't played enough Ubers if you think Groudon is the superior Pokemon (not to say that Groudon is bad in any sense).
  6. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
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    Please look more at the definitions of the S-rank before claiming that Pokémon don't belong there (talking to you Frog).

    If you look at it, Kyogre practically defines this. It can sweep a significant portion of the metagame by holding the item choice scarf, it can break walls with choice specs, break stall (somewhat) with a bulky mono-attacking calm mind set. It can very much support other pokes with little opportunity cost, which is here defined as free turns. And Kyogre's ability drizzle makes its team supporting skills come in an instant, not by wasting a turn.

    Kyogre performs multiple roles, all effectively. Examples are, choice scarf and specs, defensive or specially defensive, thunder-wave lure, hell even chesto resto is workable. And not to matter the tweaks you can do to lure usual counters, like using CM Water Spout to lure Ferrothorn or specs T-wave to crap on Palkia/Latias.

    So we have realised it can perform a lot of roles effectively, your claim is that its counters are popular. But one has to remember, there is no such things as a Kyogre counter. Latios doesn't have Latias bulk to take on brutal onslaughts over and over again, and Latias is prone to being set up on by Ferrothorn, as even HP Fire fails to deal significant damage in rain. This leaves us with the most practical Kyogre check IMO, Palkia (Choice-less) which can combat Ferrothorn switch ins (since the durian is a common partner to the whale, we must discuss what is actually happening when a so called "counter" to Kyogre switches in). But Palkia will be worn down, and a predicted thunder deals good damage and has a 30 % paralysis rate.

    Giratina is obviously also set-up bait for Ferrothorn, as well as Arceus-Water.

    Now what are Kyogre's flaws. Well, to me there are none, because even though Kyogre is kinda slow, choice scarf remedies this. Its defense is also a bit low, but Crogre has okay defense so even that is not really much of a flaw.

    Kyogre practically defines the S-tier.

    E-killer is above others because 1) It is the perfect sweeper. And that is alone the reason why it should be S-rank. Arceus-Normal can never be hampered that much by paralysis, something that makes other sweepers jealous. The only status stopping E-killer is burn, but remember that the move Will o wisp only has 75 % accuracy, which is unreliable (not to mention that if E-killer holds Lum Berry, the probability of two hits is 56.25 %).

    It sets up on pretty much anything not super effective, or drastically overpowered (specs Kyogre, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W for example) and proceeds to sweep.

    Looking at the defintion for S-rank, I can see where your claim is coming from. Arceus-Normal can't perform too many roles effectively (well Wallceus isn't really anything special) but the fact that even considering another Arceus forme for a team makes a tough choice about opportunity cost, as E-killer is such a brainless and good addition to almost any team.

    So we have found its flaws, it can't really do to many things, and E-killer is indeed predicable, but its definitely S-rank even considering the criteria because:

    Its substantial strength in sweeping makes all "flaws" it could have in versatility unimportant, since after all, it is the perfect sweeper.
  7. Haruno

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    It's also worth noting that the fact normal arceus practically screams ekiller to the majority of uber players makes any one of its other sets impossible to predict. With it's amazing 120/120/120 defenses it can do an amazing job at multiple roles due to utility moves like magic bounce, screens, will o wisp, toxic, etc. Which also adds to the fact that arceus as a whole is impossible to truly counter. Thus earning it's S placement.

    Because of how "predictable" ekiller is it in turn makes arceus unpredictable should one choose to run a different set.
  8. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Lol if Kyogre isn't S tier then please, enlighten me on what you might think should be S-tier. The fact that it's used on almost half of all teams speaks volumes on why it's undisputably the King of Ubers. You can seriously fit Kyogre into any team unless you're using another weather team, and rain is easily the best weather condition around. It's like saying Rafael Nadal isn't the best clay-courter in the men's tennis game, lol.
  9. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    We're now going to be accepting write-ups about why Pokemon are where they are on the tier list, including their strengths, weaknesses, what they're good at, and what inhibits them. Anyone is free to contribute an explanation. If it's deemed good enough it will be added to the OP. Ubers mods may change your submissions as they see fit if they are lacking in quality, detail, or have misinformation. Try to avoid directly referencing tiers themselves since Pokemons' positions can be subject to change.

    Example:

    • [​IMG] (Kyogre)
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      The undisputed king of Ubers. Kyogre's stats, movepool, and ability all make it a very influential Pokemon. Rain heavily influences the metagame, making Steel-types harder to kill, causing Thunder to be everywhere, enabling niche Pokemon such as Swift Swimmers, and empowering Kyogre's absurd Water Spout. Kyogre can act as a potent wallbreaker with a Choice Specs set; Water Spout can OHKO or 2HKO a great number of Pokemon (even resists), and many stall teams will use Pokemon specifically to handle Choice Specs Kyogre. Kyogre can also act as a capable revenge killer and cleaner with a Choice Scarf set. Answers to one Kyogre set might not stack up well against other Kyogre sets, and every team needs answers to both Scarf and Specs. Kyogre is versatile and can still fill other roles as well, such as a paralysis lure or a bulky RestTalk set.
  10. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    Might as well do some entries.

    [*][​IMG] (Arceus-Normal)

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    Arceus-Normal is a force to be reckoned with. With high stats of 120 across the board along with a diverse movepool, Arceus-Normal is a powerful, metagame defining Pokemon. Its most well-known set is known as Extremekiller; with 120 Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB priority in ExtremeSpeed, Arceus can single-handedly decimate whole teams without a worry of being revenge killed. Its excellent coverage options only come to complement its sweeping prowess. Arceus can also serve as a powerful physical wall who can take repeated onslaughts from many Pokemon. All in all, Arceus is a top notch and diverse threat in Ubers.


    [*][​IMG] (Latias)

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    Say hello to what is hands down the best Kyogre counter in the game. With Soul Dew granting her great special bulk and special attack, along with high Speed and Levitate, Latias makes for a great offensive pivot. She can use her good special movepool to its fullest effect, with moves such as Draco Meteor, Thunder, and Grass Knot in order to blast holes into opposing teams, using her bulk to stand out from her brother Latios. Latias can even take the more defensive approach and utilize Calm Mind in a defensive manner, with great special bulk and power giving her the ability to tank a myriad of special attacks. While her weaknesses to Ice, Dragon, Dark, Bug, and Ghost and middling physical bulk are a pain, Latias is still a top threat in Ubers.


    [*][​IMG] (Bisharp)

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    Besides the fact that Bisharp looks like a total badass, it does have a trick going for it in the trenches of Ubers. With a relatively strong 125 Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB priority Sucker Punch, Bisharp can make for a force to be reckoned with. Dark STAB is quite good, and with a Steel typing granting it many resistances, it can grab numerous opportunities to set up. It also has Low Kick to dent Steel-types, which is also a plus. But as it is, Bisharp is painfully slow, and when combined with how incredibly unreliable Sucker Punch is, some faster opponents can really be an annoyance and take advantage of its presence. A nasty 4x weakness to Fighting does not help its case, and Pokemon such as Arceus-Fighting and Terrakion can take advantage of that. Still, Bisharp is very usable in Ubers.
  11. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    EDIT: Sorry for double post.Keep my Bisharp, Latias, and Arceus-N entries to consider, but Imma write some for the E-Rankers as well

    [*][​IMG] (Charizard)

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    To put it bluntly, Charizard is not a very good Pokemon in Ubers. While I know it may be your favorite starter and all, Charizard has simply too many flaws to be of any use in Ubers. Being a Fire-type in a metagame infested with Kyogre is not good; and it is not going to be able to do much damage to the king of Ubers. Charizard also has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, and combined with the residual damage from Solar Power, it is simply too easy to wear down. Charizard is also sorely outclassed by Reshiram and Ho-Oh, both of who have legitimate ways to damage Kyogre and qualities to mitigate that Stealth Rock weakness. Always consider your other options before using Charizard. There are many.


    [*][​IMG] (Shedinja)

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    While Shedinja seems to work in theory, in practice it is quite a disappointment. Wonder Guard is a cool ability, yes, but Bug is such a horrible defensive typing. This, along with poor stats overall, leave it vulnerable to many threats such as Ho-Oh, Tyranitar, Terrakion, and much more. Shedinja thus usually cannot do much of anything to be put to good use. A Stealth Rock and Spikes weakness is poor, and with only 1 HP, it will always die. All in all, Shedinja is truly a pathetic Pokemon.
  12. Magcargo

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    (*)[​IMG] Tyranitar
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    Labeled as one of the most powerful pokemon in OU, Tyranitar can function just as effectively in ubers. Amazing STABs and strong moves are great, but it's massive selling point in ubers is it's ability sand stream. this allow Tyranitar to combat opposing weather sweepers and paves the way for sandstorm sweepers like Landorus, Terrakion, and excadrill. Access to SR and godlike special defense make it a pretty good wall. However, Tyranitar has common weaknesses and Trouble against Groudon and Kyogre so use it wisely. All in All, Tyranitar is an effective pokemon in ubers.


    (*)[​IMG] Metagross

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    Often bashed in OU as it lacks the ability to beat certain threats, Metagross is an effective pokemon to use in ubers. Because most pokemon don't have coverage moves for Metagross, it can finally shine. While it faces stiff competition from Groudon, Metagross can function effectively in rain, where it's fire weakness is migated. It can be a revenge killer, a trapper and a wallbreaker thanks to it's large movepool. However, metagross has a limited amount of coverage and low speed, so caution and prediction are required to use it effectively.

    [​IMG]Deoxys-n
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    Outclassed is the perfect word to describe deoxys-N. While it has good offensive stats comparable to rayquaza, Deoxys-A is a better pokemon to use offensively, as it has better offensive stats and since both deoxys-n and A have poor defenses, the loss of bulk doesn't matter. Deoxys-s does the whole entry hazards thing better due to it's higher speed and better defenses. It's only real niche is as an offensive dual screener and frankly, Mewtwo, Metagross and even Espeon and Arceus- Psychic are better options. Deoxys-N is one of the worst ubers in the game.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  13. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Deoxys-S
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    Deoxys-S, armed with an excellent movepool and a blistering Speed stat, is an ideal lead for offensive teams seeking to quickly establish entry hazard support and then make use of offensive pressure to win the match. However though, Deoxys-S' fairly disappointing defenses and lack of offensive presence mean that it works best as a suicide lead (as any decently powerful move will knock it to its Focus Sash), and that opposing Magic Bounce users will completely shut it down. It's a solid A-tier Pokemon though, because access to Stealth Rock and Spikes combined with its unrivaled speed tier mean Deoxys-S will often ensure that the opponent's Pokemon will pay dearly for every switch. Furthermore, a plethora of support options, including Magic Coat, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick and Fire Punch allow it to get past some of its conventional checks/counters, such as Forretress and set-up sweepers. Though running Deoxys-S often means that the user will essentially begin each match down 5-6, this should not discourage players from using Deoxys-S, as despite its faults, it has the ability to reliably fulfill its role (clutter the battlefield with shit).
  14. ThisMysteriousGuy

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    I'll take on some C tiered guys, Thundurus-T, Arceus-Ice, and Salamence. Don't have time at this very moment but I will get them done as soon as I can.

    EDIT:

    Salamence

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    One might initially question the use of Salamence in Ubers due to his relatively subpar offensive stats compared to the many other Dragons lurking about in the tier. Despite this, he has a few tricks up his wings to give him a chance in Ubers. For one, he has a solid speed tier of 100, outspeeding all those base 90s and 95s as well as speed tying with Palkia. Most importantly though, Dream World blessed him with an incredible ability in Moxie. This makes him a vicious Choice Scarf user, as every kill he gets will only make him stronger making him tough to stop. He also can try his hand at a Dragon Dance set, making use of Intimidate to give him more opportunities to set up. Unfortunately, Salamence still has his rather subpar offensive stats. As such, He can't use a mixed set some other Ubers Dragons can, giving him issues with breaking through physically bulky Pokemon without a boost. He also faces big competition with other Dragons such as Palkia as a Choice Scarfer and Rayquaza as a Dragon Dance user. Still, Salamence can still prove to be a worthy asset to a team should he be used to his advantages.
  15. Chou Toshio

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    I think an F Rank should be made (F for Fail), just for Uber Charizard. It's that special.
  16. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Nope. E-Rank is good as is. Charizard fits it really well, for it is aggresively mediocre and the worst of the worst. So much that it has no place on any serious team.

    EDIT: Add Dragonite to E pls. It's getting undeserved levels of usage and we need some sort of deterrent for that.
  17. Sweep

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    Omastar

    [​IMG] (Omastar)

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    Omastar is a very dangerous Pokemon in Ubers, thanks to its powerful ability Swift Swim. A modest Omastar can outrun and OHKO Mewtwo and Darkrai with Surf or Hydro Pump, and Shaymin-S with Ice Beam. Its rock typing also allows it to win one on one with Extremekiller so long as rain is up. Shell Smash gives Omastar a way to double its Special Attack and Speed. If it gets off a smash in the rain and Omastar has hazard support, it can sweep entire teams. However, getting off a smash is not always easy, as it usually needs to come in on a choice-locked Ice Beam or Fire Blast. Bluffing a revenge kill is also an option, though this requires the opponent to switch out which will not always happen. Its mediocre typing gives it undesirable weaknesses to Electric, Fighting, Grass, and Ground type moves, making it easy to kill Omastar if you can get a hit on it. Finally, though Omastar isn't useless in sand due to the special defense boost it gets there, it really needs rain to be up to pose a significant threat. All in all, Omastar can be devastating if you are good at predicting.
  18. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    I agree. Also add pikachu to E rank as it is completely outclassed and has no niche, but anime fans think he's good. Also add starters like typhlosion and Sceptile, as noobs probably will use them.
  19. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    I don't think these should be high toned blurbs as much as they should explain why something is in the tier its in. For instance, one can talk about Ghost-Arceus coverage and bulk, but also how easy it is to take advantage of its limited(very important word) counters.
  20. Donkey

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    great post 10/10 would read again.

    i agree 200%
  21. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    [​IMG] (Kingdra)
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    When looking at kingdra's base stats, you probably would label it as a worse Palkia. A closer look at it reveal some hidden features such as dragon dance and swift swim. This along with nearly unresisted STAB coverage give it a solid niche as the second fastest offensive pokemon in ubers, only being beaten by excadrill. While its attack may seem mediocre, it can be remidied with dragon dance and life orb. However kingdra's disappointing base defenses means that powerful attacks will most likely OHKO it. Also it absolutely needs kyogre's drizzle and the popularity of groudon will make it hard to sweep. It's movepool is fairly dissappointing outside of outrage and waterfall, meaning its walled by ferrothorn, another common pokemon. That said, Kingdra will wreck havoc on the foes team if given the chance.


    [​IMG]Dugtrio
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    Ah Dugtrio, a very popular pokemon for it's ability to remove Tyranitar in OU and being able to trap choice locked electric types. Mediocre base stats are the main reason it's not seen often. Pathetic defenses mean that it can only swicth into Choice locked electric types and setup honeclaws. However base 80 attack isn't going to cut it in ubers and as a result, Dugtrio fails to beat pokemon like giritina even at +6. It can only sweep offensive teams at +6. Also. Dugtrio is more often than not going to be dead weight because if your opponent knows that you have a dugtrio, they are going to be a little bit more cautios and not click thunder.
  22. Hack

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    Sorry for being retarded and not finding the sprites, but I guess it's no big deal lol.

    Groudon:
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    As the sun-bringing behemoth it is, Groudon has a lot to live up to in the Ubers metagame. No worries, because Groudon is easily one of the most reliable Pokémon in the game; it will certainly not dissapoint. Its ability Drought fuels a whole spectra of teams, making monster such as Reshiram and Ho-oh almost impossible to switch in to, as well as weakening Kyogre's water STAB. Common sets include the defensive support set which is a reliable way to phaze out the dreaded Extremekiller Arceus at least once per game and having the added benefit of having the invaluable move Stealth Rock by default. There is more, however. As Groudon has the strongest Earthquake in the game, it can deal tremendous damage with a double dancing set consisting of Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Earthquake and Stone Edge.


    Ho-oh:
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    Considering Ho-oh rarely finds usage on the most common archetype of teams (rain) in the tier, one might expect Ho-oh to be one of those "low A-rank mons." This is far from the truth as Ho-oh is simply put one of the hardest Pokémon to switch into in the game, and if it weren't for Stealth Rock stripping 50 % of its health by switching in, Ho-oh would be right up there in S-rank with Kyogre and friends. The reasons for Ho-oh's greatness lies in three great traits, the first one being the excellent distributed stats; where the Special Defense (154 base) stands out as jaw-dropping together with its potent 130 base Attack. This makes Ho-oh a great check to common Calm Mind users, such as Arceus Ghost. The second greatness is fantastic moves, its signature Sacred Fire which spreads burns as well as outright murdering enemies and Brave Bird, a 120 base STAB attack. Also, to complement this, Ho-oh has reliable recovery and Flame Charge to boost its speed while attacking. The third greatness about Ho-oh came in BW2, and we are obviously talking about its Dream World ability, Regenerator, which heals 33 % of its health by switching out. Common sets include the Subroost set, which sets up on common spikers and walls, and the Flame Charge set, which attempts to sweep by boosting its speed.

    If you can find a way to prevent Stealth Rocks on your side of the field, Ho-oh will become a monster that can net 2-3 KOs per match. With all this good points, there is obviously that big flaw which is Stealth Rock. With them up, Ho-oh can't nearly check as many threats as it would like. While it might be hard to use correctly, there still isn't much reason not to use it on your sun team.
  23. jackm

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    [​IMG] (Arceus-Ghost)
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    Boasting perfect coverage and ridiculous versatility, Arceus-Ghost is a threat that every team needs to prepare for. Its potency is only compounded by its ability to spinblock, allowing it to switch in on opponents like Forretress and Excadrill and gain momentum while preventing a spin. That said, Arceus-Ghost's real power comes in its versatility; this is why it's so hard to counter. Defensive counters to the common Calm Mind set are often massacred by a Swords Dance set, and vice versa. Even more offensive checks to certain offensive sets, like Tyranitar, are destroyed by a defensive set, smacking an unsuspecting opponent with Will-O-Wisp and effectively neutering them for the rest of the match.

    [​IMG] (Genesect)
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    Arguably the best scarfer in the Ubers tier, Genesect sees use on both offensive and defensive teams. With Download, Genesect's U-Turn packs a punch; offensive teams appreciate the instant momentum and pressure that Genesect provides. Likewise, Iron Head and Ice Beam enable Genesect to quickly switch from revenge killing to cleaning. Genesect's typing allows it to switch in on attacks from Mewtwo, Arceus-Grass, Darkai, and others and deliver a powerful blow with U-Turn or one of its coverage moves. It also allows to be one of the only Pokemon consistently able to revenge kill both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza.
  24. Magcargo

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    [​IMG] (Giratina-O)
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    Say hello to one of the best spinblockers in the tier. Thanks to levitate, Giritina-O can switch in the battlefield more often than it's brother, Giritina and ghost arceus. Only few pokemon can spin against this monster. Base 120 offenses are pretty solid, allowing it to deal serious damage to the likes of Groudon and Tyranitar. While it doesn't have the raw power of other dragons, Giritina-O has great bulk and can make use of it's support options as well. Access to Dragon tail allow it to shuffle while will-o-wisp allows it to burn physical attackers. However, Giritina has a few serious problems. It faces competition from Arceus ghost and Giritina-A as a spinblocker. It also has weaknesses to common types like dragon and Dark. The biggest issue is the griseous orb as it limits Giritina-o's item options. That said, when you need a spinblocker, look no further than Giritina-O.

    So Tobes, I was wondering when you would add these and if you choose the best entries.
    EDIT: Stated giritina o is one of the best.
  25. Hack

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    Mar 12, 2012
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    1,096
    It is an overstatement that Giratina-O is the best spinblocker in the tier. All spinblockers are in fact very good and functions in quite different ways.

    For example, Giratina has better defensive stats and is suited for a stall team that needs a sloid answer to either specs-Ogre or Ho-oh, depending on which defensive stat you invest in. While Giratina-O has a nice perk in its ability, Giratina has leftovers to remedy hazard damage, and more importantly, sandstorm damage, which makes Giratina the choice of spinblocker on a sand-stall team (or most stall teams for that matter).

    And to honestly point out that Giratina-O is a better spinblocker than Ghostceus is misleading as Ghostceus is in S-rank. This might make newer players really confused as Ghostceus is also a spinblocker. The difference is its movepool which has recover in it, giving it another important advantage over Giratina-O. The only thing that holds Ghostceus back is opportunity cost, but really, in this case you could argue that Ghostceus is infact better than E-killer.

    Giratina-O has notable advantages over other spinblockers, but to point out that it's the single best one is wrong since it's mostly a team style influenced pick. Also, note that all spinblockers have no problem fullfilling their job, i.e. blocking rapid spin. So why is then Giratina-O the best one?

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