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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    In that case, can we call it "F-rank", where F stands for "fail"?
    "E" might imply that they're a tier below "D" (as in, still usable pokemon) instead of hilariously bad.
  2. superstar

    superstar

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    Tyranitar

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    Although you may think at first that Tyranitar has no place in Ubers, sand is certainly a viable playstyle. Tyranitar provides sand that boosts the special defense of Arceus-Rock, doubles Excadrill's speed, and helps to wear down opponents. Tyranitar itself can take advantage of its Sandstorm-boosted special defense to check Palkia and Dialga by hitting them hard with Crunch and Superpower respectively. It can also Pursuit and kill the Lati twins as well as take a heavy chunk out of a Kyogre locked into Thunder or Ice Beam as it switches out. Overall, sand is viable in Ubers to combat the other weathers, and Tyranitar is a good choice for a Ubers team that thinks outside the rain/sun box. Despite this, Tyranitar has many flaws that make it B-rank. Unlike in OU, its attack stat is average at best for Ubers, and its speed leaves much to be desired. It is difficult to keep Tyranitar alive longer than the opposing Groudon/Kyogre, and it faces stiff competition from Hippodown, who counters a variety of physical threats and has reliable recovery and phazing.


    Lucario
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    In DPP Ubers, Lucario was one of the most feared sweepers. Times have changed, and now Lucario is no longer as great a threat as it once was. Its advantages as a sweeper include a powerful Close Combat, decent base 90 speed, and great priority in Extremespeed. The primary issue with Lucario is that is nearly totally outclassed by Extremekiller Arceus, which offers better offenses, better defenses, and STAB on Extremespeed. Lucario is also difficult to set up with its awful defenses, and is extremely vulnerable to revenge killing by the Extremekiller check every team has. Despite this, Lucario does offer some advantages. It can Close Combat Groudon for a 2HKO and do the same to Skarmory, and can OHKO Ferrothorn. Overall, Lucario is a niche sweeper that can occasionally be a good fit for one's team, but usually Rayquazza or Arceus-Normal will do the job better.
  3. jackm

    jackm

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    You need to mention Pursuit-trapping. You can usually beat Lati@s with it and easily win the weather war against Kyogre by coming in on a choice-locked Thunder or Ice Beam and Pursuiting.
  4. Zaon

    Zaon

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    I propose Terrakion in the A-rank.

    Terrakion is one of the best scarfmons in Uber, the scarf is able to revenge kill a lot of things like Extreme Killer(he is actually one of the best revenge killer to it), Rayquaza DD and SD, Ho-Oh, Kabutops without Aqua Jet and a lot of other mons.
    The double dancer is also good because he can sweep teams, Offense are weak to RP while Stall are weak to SD unless they have Giratina which can just burn Terrakion, Defensive Groudon or GhostCeus.
  5. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I know that Sammao and myself agreed that Terrakion should be A rank so that makes three now. (Plus I think there were some others that felt the same, I just can't find them lol.)
  6. jackm

    jackm

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    Oh yeah, Terrakion for A. Missed that, he's an amazing revenge killer and forms a pretty sweet core with Latios.
  7. asterat

    asterat

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    Terrakion for A! Also I think Giratina-O and Ho-Oh should go to S. Giratina-O is arguably the best pokemon in the game, and arguably the best spin blocker. Much like arceus ghost in many ways. It is slower but it resists water, fire, grass: all very important types in ubers. Shadow sneak is a huge advantage because it can revenge kill many threats at low health and mewtwo and arceus ghost at higher amounts of health. Dragon tail is great for phazing switch ins, while will-o-wisp leaves physical attackers and walls crippled. Unlike arceus ghost giratina-o can go mixed with draco meteor and HP fire or pull off physically defensive and beat arceus, excadrill, and blaziken. Giratina finds it way onto teams from hyper offense (especially spikestacking) to rain to sun to stall as a phazer to abuse hazards as a win condition. I use him on almlst all of my teams because he is that good. Ho-oh can wall arceus ghost and every other special attacker except arceus rock under sun.
  8. Zephir

    Zephir

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    I don't agree with that, it just doesn't fit the description. Plus when playing against Terrakion I don't find him dangerous by itself, it's just annoying at best because of its RKilling capabilities or because it can potentially start a late game sweep with spikes and/or its counters weakened. Finally it is pretty weak without boost (not even close to kill Psycho Killer after SR and LO), can be a huge momentum killer, cannot really switch in, is weak to spikes and Tspikes, and Stone Edge can miss at the worst time. SD is not bad but is pretty easily RKed.
  9. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    Terrakion should indeed be A-rank.

    In my eyes, the role of Choice Scarf-bearing Pokémon will be higher valued if the Pokémon can revenge-kill notoriuosly difficult threats to handle. E-killer Arceus is one, but Rayquaza, Lugia, Kyurem-W, Darkrai, Ho-oh and Arceus-Steel are mons in the A-rank that Terrakion can revenge kill with little or no prior damage.

    As the definition for A-rank stands, this Pokémon (Terrakion) must be able to sweep a significant portion of the metagame, but have some flaws the prevents them from doing so consistently. While that flaw being that Terrakion's strongest and most spammable attack Close Combat is unable to hit the extremely bulky Ghosts of the tier, Terrakion can still hit very hard where it hurts the most in the meta (the physical side of things). Those who are against its movement to A-rank might find this the best argument, as giving Arceus-Ghost a free turn can be detrimental.

    However, Terrakion does not have to be scarfed, which increases its versatility, and while that not being a criteria for A-rank mons, it's still a good thing about it since LO Terrakion does an excellent job at weakening Groudon and Giratina-O. SR Terrakion also finds a turn to set rocks up very easily early game.

    Terrakion can do its job most of the time, which is coming in and revenge kill set-up sweepers like E-killer and Rayquaza.

    Something to take note of is the incredible coverage between Close Combat and Stone Edge, meaning, unlike most scarfed Pokémon, Terrakion can actually use Sleep Talk in a moveslot, thus being a Sleep Absorber and a more than decent check to Focus Blast-less Darkrai.
  10. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    @Asterat, I agree with Terrakion for A, as its Fighting STAB is extremely rare in Ubers and its Speed tier is extremely high in Ubers, along with its decent Attack stat. Choice Scarf Terrakion is probably the most viable, and I admit, I've been swept late-game multiple times by it. It also is a pretty good EK Arceus check, as it can tank even a +4 ExtremeSpeed (Adamant Silk Scarf) and retaliate back.

    I like Giratina-O very much, and have wrecked teams with it, but it has a huge flaw: basically no access to recovery whatsoever, not even Leftovers (Rest doesn't count). Its Dragon weakness and its relatively low Speed stat hold it back, and its offensive stats aren't spectacular either. Also, Giratina-O lacking HP Fire is Spikes bait as well. However, access to an extremely good movepool with Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, Will-o-Wisp, etc. along with its decent bulk are definitely enough to keep it in A.

    As regards to Ho-oh, I think it belongs in A still, as a crippling Stealth Rock weakness requires you to have a spinner/Magic Bouncer, and it functions rather poorly in Rain, which is much more dominant than Sun. It also has trouble with physical attackers in general (unless it can burn them with Sacred Fire).
  11. Zaon

    Zaon

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    That's right, it doesn't hurt that hard but I think it deserves the A-rank because even if the scarf hurts pretty weakly, it can revenge kill a lot of things with its stabs and the Double Dancer isn't weak and can sweep teams without Ghosts, Groudon or some other mons if it sets up the correct move.

    Giratina-O isn't the best pokemon in the game, it doesn't really hit hard, is wall by most steels, doesn't have any recovery move and can only have Griseous Orb. Also, GhostCeus is better, he checks a lot of things, isn't a set-up bait for Spikers, has a perfect coverage and isn't slow.

    About Ho-Oh, it shouldn't be in S-Rank, it is weak to SR so it will rely on a Spiner or a Magic Bouncer, it is bad in Rain, weak to Kyogre and powerful physicals sweepers and will need Sun most of the time
  12. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Kyogre can not switch into Brave Bird. What sort of Physical sweepers are you talking about? The ones that will get burned?
  13. Zaon

    Zaon

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    I didn't say that Kyogre can switch on Ho-Oh, just that Ho-Oh is weak to Kyogre because of it water's weakness. In Rain, Sacred Fire isn't powerful so Ho-Oh is easier to wall with it.

    Again, I never said that something will switch on Ho-Oh just that he can't take well physicals hits.

    About Arceus-Ghost, it hits hard after a several Calm Mind which are easy to set-up and it isn't wall by most steels because unlike Giratina-O, it has Flamethrower. The support is a good check to ExtremeKiller since it outspeeds and burns it, Terrakion, it is the same except for the scarf that can't do something to GhostCeus, FightCeus, MixedCrom, Garchomp, nearly all physical sweepers because it outspeeds them and burn them.
    Common Spikers in the metagame are Forretress, Skarmory Ferrothorn, the first one is OHKO by Flamethrower unless Sturdy is active, the second and the last take a lot unless in Rain but Focus Blast hits the last one quite hard.
    For the coverage, I did an error.
  14. Haruno

    Haruno Sprouts > Kale
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    Giratina-o has eq for steels.
    Will o wisp is at best a light check to ekiller
    It's easy to setup cm? At most you'll have 1 and at which point your opponent will have their cmceus check/counter.
    From the sound of it ghostceus set you're running has focus blast, will o wisp, flamethrower and calm mind. Which makes it easy as hell to revenge kill.
  15. Frog

    Frog

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    Yeah I said this stuff before. Ghostceus is not that great and kyogre is usually delegated to run a mediocre defensive set nowadays.
  16. Zaon

    Zaon

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    When I said it was weak to steels, it is Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory, all of them don't take a lot from Earthquake. GhostCeus outspeed ExtremeKiller, use Will-O-Wisp and then use Focus Blast if it has it. I would just say that GhostCeus isn't a set-up bait. I mentionned two sets, the Minder and the Support, the Minder with CM/Recover/Judgment/Flamethrower or Focus Blast and the Support with WoW/Recover/Judgment/Flamethrower or Focus Blast.

    GhostCeus is excellent, he is one of the best Pokemon in the game. Kyogre is mostly use offensively, its defensive sets aren't bad.
  17. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Let me direct you here: http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/giratina-o

    See the first set there? Yeah, it is the Mixed Attacker which has Hidden Power Fire to roast those steel types in the sun. Next time you say something, make sure that it is valid.

    In my experience, Calm Mind Giratina-O is as good as Cam Mind Arceus-Ghost. Levitate allows it to avoid Toxic Spikes and Spikes; Toxic Spikes would ruin Arceus-Ghost's sweeping potential. Giratina-O can use Substitute which lets it set up on Chansey and Ferrothorn lacking Gyro Ball. Giratina-O uses Aura Sphere unlike Arceus-Ghost who has to rely on Focus Blast.

    In my experience, Giratina-O is more reliable than Arceus-Ghost for checking Extremekiller Arceus. Arceus-Ghost has to rely on Will-O-Wisp to beat Arceus-Normal. If Arceus-Normal holds a Lum Berry, the chance of hitting Will-O-Wisp twice is 56.25%. This means that Arceus-Ghost will fail to beat Arceush-Normal almost half the time. Physically defensive Giratina-O, unlike Arceus-Ghost, does not have to rely on Wil-O-Wisp to check Extremekiller Arceus, uses Dragon Tail which is 90% accurate. Dragon Tail in conjunction with Stealth Rock and Spikes means that Arceus will be at less then 25% health after being phazaed out and sent back in. With this remaining HP, Arceus is unable to set up and anythng on your team should be able to KO it
  18. polop

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    I actually disagree with Terrakion being moved to A-rank. Yes, it can revenge kill, yes it has a cool double dancing set, but it by no means is capable of sweeping entire teams. It can only do this if given extreme support (like SR + 3 layers of spikes + lots of phazing), but at that point virtually every mon (including those in lower tiers that are fast) can do that. Terrakion is famous for two sets, its double dancing one and its Choice Scarf one (it can do Sub + SD and CB too but it can't do the second one very well and the first one's usefulness has gone down with Roar Giratina-a being so popular). The Choice Scarf one is an example of a niche set, it occupies the niche of being able to revenge kill a few threats, namely weakened ExtremeKiller Arceus, Rayquaza, and the Kyurems. The Double Dancing set is kind of strong, but its very hard to setup due to the fact Terrakion just lacks resistances. Without Dual Screen or Wobbufett support, acquiring those two boosts is practically impossible. It doesn't help much either that its still stopped by Great Wall Giratina, I'd even go so far as to say its outclassed by Groudon (but it can beat Skarmory, and you can also do the whole I have two Double Dancers to weaken the other double dancers checks so that the other mon can sweep). Regardless, there are only specific situations where you'd use Terrakion over another mon (like you need a revenge killer that can stop Ekiller Arceus (it fulfills a niche)).

    With this being said take a look back at the B-rank description.
    Giratina-O, also, in my opinion should stay A rank. Giratina-O is a great spin blocker, but to call it the best might be a stretch. Each spin blocker has their own strengths. Giratina-O is the only one immune to hazards, and its the only one that has a decently strong Dragon Tail and can shuffle nicely, but it lacks recovery (outside of Rest), has a weakness to Dragon-type and Ice-type moves, and it can't sweep that well or wall well (it can stall break somewhat nicely I guess with Sub + CM or Sub + Dragon Tail), its a tank. Unlike all of the S-rank members, it can't turn around and stop its checks by surprising them with an uncommon set or move (for the record, this is why I think Ghost Arceus is S Rank).

    I'm assuming CM Ghost Arceus's set is CM / Judgment / Focus Blast / Recover.

    The only true CM Ghost Arceus counter is Chansey (this gets completely stomped on by Sub CM variants). Ho-Oh can come close I guess but if Stealth Rocks are up it shouldn't be happy... it can't OHKO back while it can just Calm Mind again and Judge the thing to death. Only physical Choice Scarf users pose a chance at stopping CM Ghost Arceus (well that or you can phaze it but Ghost hits pretty much every phazer barring Skarmory and Arceus forms super effectively), and the strongest of them, Choice Scarf Kyurem-Black, barely 2HKOes (176+ Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 216-255 (48.64 - 57.43%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO) and gets OHKOed in return by Focus Blast, you can try using Choice Scarf Zekrom instead, it can try to 2HKO with Bolt Strike (252 Atk Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 202-238 (45.49 - 53.6%) -- 38.67% chance to 2HKO) but chances are its move will get pp stalled instead. Other threats like Scarf Garchomp just flat out fail to 2HKO. If your using Scarf Ogre as your check Choice Scarf Water Spout doesn't even come close to OHKOing (252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost in rain: 256-303 (57.65 - 68.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), while Ghost Arceus can use Judgment the turn after, weakening Kyogre to the point where it can Recover off the damage. Surf doesn't 2HKO after Calm Mind.

    Point being said, Ghost Arceus is extremely hard to stop (unless your using Darkrai (<- this guy needs to have not used Dark Void yet)/ Chansey / Sp Def Kyogre (can only Roar, which is just delaying the threat and taking a hit, does stop it temporarily though) and this is without support. Pairing it with Dual Screen or Wobbufett support (or even just letting something else take the Dark Void from Darkrai) or some kind of double Calm Mind user thing makes it a LOT harder to stop.

    This isn't even factoring how well the support set does against stopping threats while preventing spinning and how decently Ghost Arceus runs a SD set.

    Calm Mind Giratina-O lacks Recover, and has a dragon-type weakness making it prone to being revenge killed by scarf dragons, this is where you draw the line. Both can run substitute to stop Chansey (although I will admit that Giratina-O is a little better of at doing this thanks to levitate (avoids Toxic Spikes).

    Firstly, Ghost Arceus gets Roar so its not like it can't phaze. Secondly, having less then 25% health is a pretty far jump 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Dragon Tail vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 105-124 (26.05 - 30.76%) -- guaranteed 4HKO. With Stealth Rock that peaks at 54%. I know you mentioned Spikes but 2 layers of spikes + SR are required to get it below 25% (which honestly sounds a bit farfetched...). Keep in mind this ignores the possibility that Extremekiller is using Shadow Force (in which case WoW > Roar / Dragon Tail), and that if it is using Shadow Claw that its only a one time check.

    Just wanted to add that it can also use Thunder and Aura Sphere to beat Steels too :P. Trick Room actually used mixed Giratina-o w/t Thunder in his Drown All team, which I think none will disagree with was extremely influential on the metagame at that time.
  19. EmblemLord

    EmblemLord

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    On the subject of moving Pokemon on the list, is there a decision for Reshiram yet? I have seen several prominent posters arguing for it to be moved to B rank, which I think is more fitting given what is in C rank.
  20. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Seconding mr lol's post, terra can stay b

    Also reminds me, proposing mandiuzz for c rank
    He is actually one of the best ghostceus checks out
    His typing lets him resist ghost and remain neutral to fighting
    Taunt stops it setting up
    Toxic means he will die eventually
    Whirlwind phases out any boosts
    Roost keeps him healthy

    He literally has everything he needs (except magic guard)
  21. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I seriously doubt Mandibuzz's viability in Ubers 'cause it's really fucking weak. Not sure though.

    Anyways, might as well write in some entries.

    Blaziken (open)
    Holding the honor as the first and only starter Pokemon to ever be banished to Ubers, Blaziken is quite surprisingly a force to be reckoned with. With its ability in Speed Boost, its mediocre 80 Speed will constantly get boosted to formidable levels. Combine this with a good 120 Attack and strong dual STAB's in Flare Blitz and Hi Jump Kick, Blaziken will more than amply blow its way through teams. This hold true especially on sun teams, as with Flare Blitz's amplified power, Blaziken is only walled by Giratina. Don't think Blaziken is perfect though; Flare Blitz and Hi Jump Kick both have deadly side effects in recoil and crash damage, respectively, and when combined with Blaziken's fraility, limit its ability to survive on the battlefield. This, as a result, make Blaziken difficult to use. Don't let this deter you, though, with its qualities, Blaziken has the right tools to be a real threat in Ubers.


    Chansey (open)
    While she might not look like the part, Chansey is without a doubt the top special wall in Ubers, capable of taking onslaughts from even the strongest special attackers such as Kyurem-W and Kyogre. While her stats may seem inferior to Blissey, the fact that she is not fully evolved allows her to utilize Eviolite. The 50% boost to her defenses give Chansey the edge over Blissey, and even grant Chansey the chance to survive some powerful physical attacks such as Zekrom's Bolt Strike. Chansey also has access to useful support options such as Wish and Aromatherapy, allowing her to be a good supportive teammate to cure status and heal massive amounts of HP using her 250 HP stat. While Chansey lacks offensive presence (which is somewhat mitigated by Seismic Toss) and Leftovers recovery, she still holds a place in Ubers as a strong special wall who can support the team well.


    Kabutops (open)
    At first glance, Kabutops doesn't look like much in Ubers. None of its stats come up to par in Ubers, and along with an awful defensive typing, it looks like a decidedly mediocre Pokemon. However, with its access to Swords Dance and Swift Swim, Kabutops is one of the most dangerous sweepers in the rain. It has a brutal STAB combination in Waterfall and Stone Edge that allows it to heavily damage many opponents with its usable 115 Attack stat. It also has access to Rapid Spin, and while it is true that spinblockers give it trouble, it is a great asset for rain teams as hazard removal. Kabutops also has access to some good coverage moves such as X-Scissor and Low Kick, making it more difficult to take on. While Kabutops is heavily dependent on rain to be a threat and is cursed with a horrible defensive typing, Kabutops has just the right tools to compete in the harsh lands of Ubers.
  22. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    As per Mr.lol's arguments Terrakion will remain B-rank and Giratina-O A-rank. As for Ho-Oh, it is not S-rank because of the amount of support it requires, and even with that support it can still struggle. Not to mention that spinning can be a daunting task in Ubers. It's an excellent Pokemon, but will remain A-rank.
  23. puregenius

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    let me start with the definition to the c rank

    mandibuzz is very similar to gastro in the aspect that both are niche counters to S rank threats
    at +1 ghostceus can never 3hko mandibuzz

    +1 4 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 113-133 (26.71 - 31.44%) -- possible 4HKO

    in fact mandibuzz has superior physical and special bulk (110/105/95) compared to gastrodon (111/68/82), which allows him to tank hits well even outside of ghostceus

    mandibuzz also has much greater utility, with taunt, toxic and whirlwind
    taunt is particularly signicficant as it means no pokemon can set up on it, most notably ferro who could spike all over something like lugia

    seriously, if mandibuzz doesnt deserve a place in C rank, gastro shouldnt either

    Edit

    Oh wait gastro is d
    Well I'd still recommend mandiuzz for c or d
  24. Magcargo

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    Just because Mandibuzz can wall Ghostceus doesn't make it viably in ubers. It gets destroyed by common moves like thunder and ice beam and anything with taunt shuts it down. Blissey is also a better special wall. Here are the calcs from the amount of damage it take fron 252+ ghostceus's focus blast.

    252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Soundproof Blissey (+SpDef): 33% - 39% (238 - 280 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    As you can see, Blissey takes a similar amount of damage from a stronger +1 Ghostceus. Mandibuzz has literally no niche that can't be done by other pokemon. Whirlwind can Phaze stuff, but pokemon like groudon are better phazers. Comparing it to gastron isn't a real reason since gastrodon only has 1 uncommon weakness and can still do better againt pokemon like kyorge and thundorus-T. 110/105/95 defenses are nothing compared to lugia or arceus dark, and base 65 attack means the mandibuzz lacks offensive presence. Mandibuzz is not viable and has no niche, and it is outclassed by a myraid of pokemon suck as dark arceus and lugia.
  25. GG Unit

    GG Unit

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    If you bring in Blissey/Chansey on an Arceus-Ghost that has Substitute, you might as well forfeit, so yeah, Mandibuzz does have a niche due to being able to taunt or phaze.

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