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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    I've never really used/played against Mandibuzz but it does indeed look like a solid answer to Ghostceus, has a decent enough amount of bulk to tank some other hits, and can break stall with access to Taunt which is always nice.

    And on the subject of Gastrodon (a Pokemon I can say is something I've faced):

    What the hell

    First off Thundurus-T is NOT everywhere

    Secondly Thundurus-T usually beats out Gastrodon cause Grass Knot is generally a more viable option on it than HP Ice is (before you ask why, it's because of Groudon), and if you can imagine, Grass Knot is not something Gastro wants to take:

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T Grass Knot vs 252 HP/248 SpDef Gastrodon (+SpDef) : 72.3% - 85.45%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Gastrodon's really only niche is countering Kyogre (I don't know if it can beat Mono-Attacker though...) and a few Pokemon that unfortunately lack the moves to be able to get around it, like...non SD Kabutops? Gastrodon really only counters Kyogre, that's about it. If Mandibuzz can counter the Pokemon it indeeds to counter (Ghostceus) and be able to accomplish various other tasks, then I see no reason for it not to be added (Not suggesting a tier because, again, I've never really used Mandibuzz)
  2. lousy918

    lousy918

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    I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic
  3. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Oh my god
    I really didn't think this was necessary, but I have marked all sarcastic posts
  4. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    Ghostceus almost never runs substitute anyways. Also, almost everything in ubers has the ability to phaze. Taunt is simply not enough to allow Mandibuzz to be viable and JUST BECUASE MANDIBUZZ CAN WALL GHOSTCEUS DOESN'T MAKE IT VIABLE. I suppose shedninja is viable for being able to wall kyogre. Outside of walling ghostceus, mandibuzz is useless. Mandibuzz cannot acomplish other task because of common weakness's. While it does have a unique combination of taunt, whirlwind and roost, Mandibizz's SR weakness, vulnerability to taunt and weakness to common attacking types rarely make it work it. Also, how does arceus_dark have an oppurtunity cause?
  5. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Alright here we go again

    I forgot to mention mandibuzz also gets knock off to mess with teams
  6. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    Just because mandibuzz can counter one poke suddenly makes it viable? Also, mandibuzz is weak to SR (thanks for calling me stupid). Darkrai can dark void mandibuzz and put it to sleep, then set up on mandibuzz and lugia can also whirlwind and take all of those hits hits better than mandibuzz. Other walls, have a move you've never heard of called dragon tail so they aren't completely useless when taunted. You fail to see that mandibuzz is outclassed by many other pokemon and can't do anything to the opponent with that base 65 attack. Even lickylicky is a better general wall and that is saying something.
  7. puregenius

    puregenius

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  8. polop

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    I see where both sides are coming from. While I do agree that it may initially seem that Mandibuzz sucks, this simply isn't the case, it thus, as a result, should be ranked above E rank (I can't decide whether C or D fits it better though).

    Its poor bases may look as if it doesn't work at first, but after extensive testing in the previous research week, I think most of the community agrees that Mandibuzz isn't worthless. Its Special Bulk is pretty close to that of Lugia, and unlike Lugia, it gets Taunt to prevent the Ferrothorn that everyone loves and hates from using Leech Seed or hazards. It may have poor offensive bases, but that's more then assuaged with Taunt, Whirlwind, and Foul Play, which will make the opponent suffer if they try setting up in front of it. THAT is something no Blissey or Chansey can do, and frankly they're the only other things that come close to countering Ghost Arceus (but they get beat up by Sub + CM and SD versions which Mandibuzz can stop). I completely understand what you mean by why a pokemon shouldn't be ranked if they can stop just one threat, anyone who initially looked at Mandibuzz and thought of it being used in Ubers would've thought likewise, but that doesn't mean that if it is proven useful that the evidence / reasoning that proved it useful should be ignored :P.

    With this being said, I'll address your points.
    Its special bulk and decent physical bulk (recall its special bulk is comparable to Lugia), let it decently check other threats as well (look at puregenius's post for more information). Just because a Pokemon is SR weak doesn't mean its unviable. Ho-Oh, a pokemon 4* SR weak is used isn't it? Like Ho-Oh Mandibuzz has retaining qualities that let it be useful in Ubers. Unlike Lugia, Mandibuzz's access to Taunt lets it prevent things from setting up. Foul Play allows Mandibuzz to stop some threats that have Taunted it. Honestly I think puregenius addressed everything else so just read his post (for the record I was typing this up while he posted X_X).

    I am not taking sides as to whether it should be C or D rank, but I do think we should rank Sableye (its not on the list and it was proved to be good too :P).
  9. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Ill be honest I didn't realise he got foul play lol
    Well then ur argument about offensive presence just went down the toilet
  10. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    Well, I've decided to forget about arguing against Mandibuzz. Instead I'm going to nominate bisharp for B-rank. I recently used him and I've gotta say that I'm impressed. Bisharp's massive base 125 attack allows him to dent many bulky walls. STAB sucker punch and night slash give him some utility against mewtwo and lugia. It has low kick for resist and gives him perfect neutral coverage on everything bar heracross and toxicroak. Low kick will usually get 120 base power because everything in ubers is heavy. Rayquaza takes major Damage from sucker punch and giritina and lugia lose to bisharp one-on-one. Bisharp is a really good pokemon and C-Rank is a bit too low.
  11. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Mandibuzz, with its 110 / 105 / 95 defenses is surprisingly bulky. It is an excellent counter to CM Arceus-Ghost, as even a +6 Focus Blast cannot OHKO the bird. Countering Arceus-Ghost is also important, like Gastrodon counters Kyogre, being able to take down a S-tier Pokemon is big. Furthermore, CM Arceus forms at +1 with a neutral Judgment will only do 39.95 - 47.04%, a guaranteed 3HKO. Therefore, Mandibuzz can tank a Judgment if Stealth Rock isn't in play, and phaze Arceus out, meaning it is a check. Access to reliable recovery in Roost and utility in Taunt is pretty big as well.

    However, the pros kind of end here. Mandibuzz is Stealth Rock weak, and has quite a few weaknesses. Mandibuzz also has very little offensive presence (with the exception of Foul Play, but that doesn't touch special attackers), and if Taunted, is hard-pressed to do anything important. Furthermore, a lot of the Dragon-types in Ubers can deal a lot of damage to Mandibuzz. I checked Honkalculator, and everything stronger than Choice Scarf Palkia's Thunder can 2HKO it. Lastly, a lot of Arceus types with neutral Judgments have coverage moves that can hit Mandibuzz supereffectively.

    For example:
    I will now show calculations for the Pokemon you mentioned versus Mandibuzz. I stuck with the movesets standard for Arceus (first in Analysis), and assumed that Mandibuzz switched in on the turn that Arceus boosted (either CM or SD). Also, for reference, I used this set for Mandibuzz:
    Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Big Pecks
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind
    - Foul Play

    Calculations for Arceus
    Show Hide
    Arceus-Grass:
    +1 4 SpA Arceus-Grass Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 180-212 (42.55 - 50.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Arceus Ground:
    +1 4 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 180-212 (42.55 - 50.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Arceus-Fighting:
    +1 4 SpA Arceus-Fighting Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 180-212 (42.55 - 50.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Arceus-Bug:
    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Bug Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 218-258 (51.53 - 60.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, OR
    +2 252 Atk Arceus-Bug Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 392-462 (92.67 - 109.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Arceus-Poison:
    +1 0 SpA Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 153-180 (36.17 - 42.55%) -- 34.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    *Mandibuzz will win here, but keep in mind that the support set (first in the Analysis) can either Roar you out first or cripple you with Will-O-Wisp.
    Arceus-Dark:
    Arceus-Dark's moves will all do piddly damage, but keep in mind that the support set (first in the Analysis) can either Roar you out first or cripple you with Will-O-Wisp.
    Arceus-Flying:
    +1 252 SpA Sky Plate Arceus-Flying Judgment (Flying) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 207-244 (48.93 - 57.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Arceus-Dragon:
    +1 8 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment (Dragon) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 169-201 (39.95 - 47.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, OR
    +2 252 Atk Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 423-498 (100 - 117.73%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    Calculations for Deoxys-A
    Show Hide
    Deoxys-A:
    252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 322-382 (76.12 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Calculations for Genesect
    Show Hide
    Genesect:
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 177-208 (41.84 - 49.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 154-183 (36.4 - 43.26%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    *Both of these moves will severely cripple Mandibuzz, and if the Genesect user is feeling particularly ballsy, then +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 367-432 (86.76 - 102.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock*


    A bunch of these have the capability to 2HKO, so the Mandibuzz user is stuck in this dilemma: "I must phaze the opponent out or I will get swept. However, doing so leaves me at ~50%, meaning I may not be able to check what I am currently phazing out later. "Also, having 80 Base Speed, Mandibuzz won't outspeed much and will not be able to Roost without having to stomach a second attack. Mandibuzz also works better against stall teams, but with the offensive nature of the Ubers metagame, is hard pressed to fufill its role.
  12. puregenius

    puregenius

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    My bad I should've mentioned mandibuzz only beats the focus sash atker set for deo a

    The problem with gene is that he won't always have the right boost at the right time

    I retract my statement about beating flyingceus and bugceus as I assumed they would run 4spa

    Everything else is quite accurate

    Note that if u can get mandibuzz in on a free switch, he can effectively outstall 4spa arceus that do not have se stabs

    I forgot to mention this earlier, but mandibuzz also beats many gira o variants (ie the ones that do not carry outrage/thunder), which is another boon
  13. Salamence97

    Salamence97

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    I would nominate Heracross for B, or at least C tier.

    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

    For me, this describes Heracross the best. It can't sweep significant portions of the meta, but fulfill a given niche - an offensive status absorber/wall breaker (or a near-hard counter to Darkrai). Heracross may be outclassed by, say, CB Zekrom, or something like that, but is dangerous in its own right. If not anything else, this guy is an amazing partner for Ghostceus. Also, don't say GhostCeus and Giratina wall this bug to hell and back (for more info, see my post in 'Non-ubers in Ubers discussion' thread).

    And here's the write up. Seems decent, though I can try to improve if asked to.
    As a side note, I've focused on CB, anything else sucks on Hercross.

    Show Hide

    Initially, Heracross's mediocre offensive stats by Uber standards would suggest that it has trouble breaking through the bulky walls in the tier. In practice, however, it is quite the opposite. With a Choice Band attached, the king of UU can function as an extremely powerful wallbreaker even in Ubers. This is partly because of Heracross's movepool - consisting of its infamous dual STABs Close Combat and Megahorn, as well as decent coverage options such as Earthquake, Stone Edge and Night Slash. But Heracross's main niche comes from its ability - Guts. This ability gives Heracross a 50% attack boost when it is statused. It means that Heracross can freely switch into Toxic from Blissey and Lugia, or Will-o-Wisp from Giratina and defensive Arceus formes - statuses which will cripple other pokemon - and proceed to do massive damage. Also, by running Sleep Talk, it can directly absorb Darkrai's Dark Void. While Heracross is insanely powerful after a Guts boost, it has it's flaws. One of them is it's extremely frail, so it shouldn't switch into anything other than status moves. Secondly, while its still fast enough to outpace the walls, any offensive Pokemon can easily outrun it. A Choice Scarf might seem decent, but Heracross still can't outrun +1 base 90s, and loses out on a lot of power. Still, if you're looking for an offensive status absorber, a wall breaker with absurd power, or a near foolproof Darkrai counter, Heracross is worth a try.
  14. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    Well heracross certainly deserves to be C-rank at the minimum. Dual 120 base power STABs and the ability to check dangerous pokemon like darkrai, arceus-dark and dialga definetly gives it a niche. While it is walled by giritina, who doesn't mind night slash (unless it is CB), he still is a good pokemon and deserves to be C-rank.
  15. Salamence97

    Salamence97

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    Yeah, C-rank minimum (seeing as half decent stuff like Mence and Scizor are also C).
    Actually, just wanted to point out that a CB Guts Adamant Night Slash does 46% minimum to 252 HP/252 Def Bold Giratina, a guaranteed 2HKO after SR, so it isn't completely true that Giratina 'doesn't mind Night Slash'.
  16. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    I would say C-Tier for Heracross, it definitely does not deserve B-tier when it literally dies to anything a powerful Uber can throw at it, not to mention his Speed stat of 85 simply won't cut it when most Pokemon have 90 minimum. While Night Slash is an option against Ghosts you have to consider that you ARE Choiced and 99% of the time you'll want to be spamming Megahorn and Close Combat. While Heracross is not a terrible stallbreaker, he's not amazing and it loses sorely to Offensive teams who can easily outspeed and OHKO it.

    Overall though Heracross isn't awful and I'd call it 'half-decent' like the poster above me.
  17. rileydelete

    rileydelete

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    Hi there, I brought up adding Whimsicott a few days ago, and again, I definitely think it belongs in the C tier.

    Show Hide
    When you first see Whimsicott, the last thing on you mind may be that belongs in the Uber tier. Don’t be fooled though: this cute, cotton puffball can give teams a load of trouble. With a movepool containing a vast amount of status moves and Prankster able to give them all priority, Whimsicott is perhaps the greatest annoyer in the entire game. It can trap an opponent into a status move with Encore or shut down a hazard layer through Taunt.

    Yet this Pokémon’s most dangerous aspect is that it can take advantage of these situations and start the Subseed combo with priorty. Whimsicott can easily set up a Substitute after forcing a switch out, launch Leech Seed and then proceed to drain huge amounts of health from opponents by repeating substitute again and again.

    Take care when using though; Whimsicott is far and I mean FAR from perfect. Despite packing an impressive Base 116 speed, the “windveild” Pokemon hits as hard as a feather and has lackluster defenses. To make matters worse, Grass Types wall Whimsicott all day long, and anything faster with priority (read: Extremespeed) will doom the cotton creature.

    Still, if given proper team support, Whimsicott can really abuse its niche as an incredible disrupter. Try one out if you feel bold, the results may surprise you.


    Feel free to tear my write-up apart-I may be wrong for even bringing the cottonball up.
  18. Magcargo

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    The subseed set is known for its mediocrity. I suggest changing the set to the support set, a far better set. The support set is able to paralyze the opponents and not be completely useless when grass types come in.
  19. rileydelete

    rileydelete

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    Unfortunately, that set is really Whimsicott's only niche. The only other viable support moves would be

    -GrassWhistle
    -Stun Spore
    -Light Screen
    -Memento
    -Tailwind
    -Toxic

    Aside from toxic, the status-inducing moves have bad accuracy.

    Setting up screens is a job better performed by something such as Lugia, Stalltwo, or Xatu.

    Mememto is interesting if you want to set something up, but it can only be used once.

    Tailwind is probably the best option for a slot but it's hindered by only lasting four turns. Reshiram or Ho-Oh do the job much better.

    The standard set gives Whimsicott something that truely makes it unique. Thats why I believe it's the most viable set.
  20. Magcargo

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    Still, ferrothorn and shaymin-s do wall you and the ferrothorn user can predict the taunt and go for gyroball.
  21. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    Shaymin-S does the SubSeed role better than Whimsicott with much better stats, Serene Grace and the powerful Seed Flare and Air Slash. You said Whimsicott can set up a sub after forcing a switch-out, but honestly what would it force out at all? Nothing really, and Shaymin-S can force a number of Pokemon out including the extremely common Kyogre and Groudon.
  22. rileydelete

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    As I've said, Grass types wall Whimsicott all day, but it has unique traits that set it apart from from Ferrothorn and Shaymin-S.

    Shaymin-S is great offensively and really deserves it's place in the B tier. Base 100 states and Serene Grace truly make it a powerhouse. However, Whimsicott is arguably more mischievous in how fast it can start subseeding. Without doubt, Shaymin is a more viable Uber in general, but because Whimsicott can Subseed so well and so fast, it can actually be much more defensive and lend itself incredibly well to stall teams-especially those that use toxic spikes.

    Ferrothorn is in the same boat as Shaymin-S in that it's typically the better pokemon. The thorn pod Pokemon can help it's team in a number of ways by setting up hazards, inflicting a status, hitting hard with Gyro Ball/Power Whip, and even launching seeds itself. Despite this though, the fact that Whimsicott can shut down walls like Chansey and switch into so many sweepers during set up, lock them into their set up move, and then force them out makes it difficult to deal with.

    Again, Both Shaymin and Ferrothorn are usually better, but Whimsicott definitely has a unique niche. It deserves a spot on in the C-tier because of the great synergy it provides to stall teams.
  23. Focus

    Focus I'm waiting you...

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    Hippowdon still isn't listed... It has awesome physical bulk, Slack Off, Sand Stream, Stealth Rock, Whirlwind, and a nice STAB Earthquake. It's a great alternative to Tyranitar for setting up sand because it brushes off a number of physical threats like Blaziken, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and SD Arceus-Ghost while bringing in that lovely sandstorm. Compared to other weather setter-uppers, Hippowdon's physical bulk along with instant recovery sets it apart most of all, and that Electric immunity certainly does not hurt. It also can run Sand Force for use on a Rain team, which means much less opportunity cost than Arceus-Ground. I'd say B-rank because while is a great use of a team slot, it does have meh Special Defense and prominent weaknesses to Water, Ice, Grass.
  24. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    I agree that Hippowdon is good pokemon in Ubers and should be listed.But I believe C-tier would be more suitable for it.Hippodwdon,as physical wall and support pokemon is outclassed by Arceus-Ground who can do everything Hippowdon can much more while also having better defense,an even higher SpDef and much better speed and offensive potential.The advantage Hippo has over Arceus Ground is less opportunity cost letting you use another Arceus form and acting as a defensive alternative for a Sand streamer on defensive sand teams. While it's a very good mon in Ubers,being outclassed on it's primary role of walling and supporting by a B-tier poke shouldn't be B-tier itself imo. But I think C-tier is fine for it thanks to the niches it has over Arceus Ground.
  25. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    I disagree, Hippowdon fits B-rank because it can properly fullfill a given defensive niche.

    Having used Hippowdon extensively, I hardly agree that you can compare Arceus Ground to the hippo simply because of Sand Stream which allows it to get rid of sun and combat Ho-oh much better, than say Arceus Ground or Groudon (especially Groudon who brings sun to fuel the phoenix's attacks).

    Hippowdon can only be outclassed as a Sand summoner, and by that it can only be outclassed in its niche by Tyranitar, which it isn't as it has reliable recovery, and the ability to take on Groudon much better. It's primary role is not walling, but rather supporting which no Arceus-Ground can ever weigh up, especially with that extremely high opportunity cost. Also, Hippowdon has nothing against carrying Stealth Rock for its team, something an Arceus form always hates.

    C-rank states that the Pokémon can only be capable of functioning with specific support, but Hippowdon is self-reliant in the sense that it brings its own support by default. It does not a very specific niche either, a niche that C-rank mons depend on, for example Ditto's incapabilty of functioning against all teams and so forth. There is a difference between these C mons and Hippowdon, and that is Sand Stream, which is instant support and that can't be overlooked.

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