1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,552
    I'll be sifting through these some time tomorrow or the day after; don't worry, I haven't forgotten.
  2. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,331
    [​IMG] (Arceus-Psychic)
    Show Hide

    With 120 base stats across the board, arceus-psychic is fast, strong and powerful. Access to recover give the ability to be a bulky sweeper, or a wall. So what's this thing doing all the way down in D-Rank? Well the answer is simple. It is outclassed both by lugia and mewtwo. These two do whatever arceus-psychic can but better. With multiscale, lugia can take hit much better. With higher speed and special attack, Mewtwo is a superior choice offensively. Physically, Deoxys-A is also a superior choice because of it's stronger moves and attack. It's only niche is being offensive and defensive at the same time.The biggest problem is that you cannot run any of the other arceus forms. However, good bulk and special attack allow it to run a great calm mind set. Psyshock is a huge boon, allowing Arceus-psychic to win calm mind wars. While certainly viable in ubers, being outclassed and not being able to use other arceus forms has really dampered Arceus-psychic's preformance in uber.

    EDIT: added a major drawback with arceus Psychic.
  3. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    @Magcargo 2, also possibly of note are Giratina-O's good support options, (notably Dragon Tail and Will-O-Wisp), which in conjunction to its decent bulk, make it a pretty good backup check to Extreme Killer Arceus. Also, though Arceus-Psychic is outclassed by its fellow Psychic-types, one of its biggest drawbacks is its opportunity cost, as running sub-optimal Arceus forms means you can't run the more prominent forms such as Arceus-Normal, Ghost, Fighting, Steel, etc.
  4. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,331
    Thanks for the tips. I have taken note of them and edited my post.
  5. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    [​IMG]
    Show Hide
    Access to a Ghost-typing, dual base 120 Defenses, a gigantic base 150 HP stat combined with valuable resistances to Water-, Fire-, Electric-, and Grass-type moves makes Giratina-a the bulkiest spin blocker in the game! This allows it to run both a physically defensive set that can wall Ho-Oh lacking Life Orb and specially defensive spread that allows it to become one of the few Pokemon that can absorb Kyogre's Rain and Choice Specs boosted Water Spout! Its walling capabilities ensure that no team is disappointed with its performance. It can even take advantage of its enormous bulk to run a decent Calm Mind set and try to sweep. What's keeping it from reaching S rank though? The answer is simple; it can't hurt anything. Twin base 100 offenses are nothing pretty to glance at, and by completely investing in defensive, it becomes hard for Giratina-a to defeat its foes. The only way for Giratina-a to really kill anything, is if a lot of hazards are present, only then will it be able to spam Dragon Tail and weaken a team. This gives it problems against Rapid Spin users like Forretress and Tentacruel, as they can just setup entry hazards in front of Giratina as they know it can't do anything to them but use Dragon Tail or burn them. To add to the pain, Giratina lacks reliable recovery outside of Rest, and its Dragon-typing makes it weak to the common Draco Meteors and Ice Beams that fly around in the tier, which takes a toll on its bulk. This isn't enough to stop Giratina-a though. Its one of the few users of Resttalk in Ubers as it can actually survive most of the time to wake up and use Rest again. Its Specially Defensive spread is strong enough to tank even a super effective Draco Meteor from most Dragons in the tier should it not be boosted by Life Orb! This allows it to stay in A rank. There is no wall that can tank hits like Giratina, and if there is they lack the Ghost-typing that prevents Rapid Spin.


    Giratina-a is a bit long though, I'm not sure if I should shorten it...especially considering the size of the others...

    Psychic Arceus's main niche actually involves being able to run a good Calm Mind set with bulk that Mewtwo wishes it has. Unlike other Arceus forms it gets STAB on Psyshock, meaning it can win Calm Mind wars (Lugia has major four moveslot syndrome and even at +6 isn't the strongest thing around, which prevents it from doing something similar). Its Psychic typing also lets it be a more reliable check to Mewtwo and Deoxys-A, something that I believe no other Pokemon can do to the same extent (which should be mentioned, Lugia looses if SR is up while Arceus-Psychic does not).
  6. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,331
    [​IMG] (Garchomp)
    Show Hide

    Garchomp is infamous for its banning it D/P, as Sand Veil meant that most attacks would not hit. However, with the banning of sand Veil, Garchomp fell back into OU (however sand veil is still allowed in ubers). However, sand Veil wasn't the only reason of it's banning. 130 base attack and 102 speed means that the shark is a great offensive pokemon. It's dual STAB's are only resisted by the likes of skarmory and bronzong, two very rare sights in ubers. It's speed is very trolly, narrowly outspeeding Palkia, Thundorus-T and Salamence. You may be asking why it isn't A rank. The main reason is a weakness to common types and average attack. While 130 attack is by no means bad, compared to base 150 attack, it is a bit underwhelming. Also, the land shark faces major competition with excadrill under the sand, who has better offenses and speed (however, garchomp has a better offensive typing and bulk). That said, garchomp is a solid addition to any team, despite it's imitations.

    I made an edit to arceus-psychic.
  7. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,552
    Accepted submissions: (Some changes have been made for a few; aside from minor GP changes all have been bolded)

    Arceus (open)
    Arceus-Normal is a force to be reckoned with. With high stats of 120 across the board along with a diverse movepool, Arceus-Normal is a powerful, metagame defining Pokemon. Its most well-known set is known as Extremekiller; with 120 Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB priority in ExtremeSpeed, Arceus can single-handedly decimate whole teams without a worry of being revenge killed. In fact, Pokemon gain niches in Ubers simply for being able to resist ExtremeSpeed and outpace Arceus. Its excellent coverage options only come to complement its sweeping prowess. Arceus can also serve as a powerful physical wall who can take repeated onslaughts from many Pokemon. All in all, Arceus is a top notch and diverse threat in Ubers. Arceus-Normal really isn't all that diverse.

    Latias (open)
    Say hello to what is hands down one of the best Kyogre answers in the game. With Soul Dew granting her great special bulk and special attack, along with high Speed and Levitate, Latias makes for a great offensive pivot. She can use her good special movepool to its fullest effect, with moves such as Draco Meteor, Thunder, and Grass Knot in order to blast holes into opposing teams, using her bulk to stand out from her brother Latios. Latias can even take the more defensive approach and utilize Calm Mind in a defensive manner, with great special bulk and power giving her the ability to tank a myriad of special attacks. While her weaknesses to Ice, Dragon, Dark, Bug, and Ghost and middling physical bulk are a pain, Latias is still a top threat in Ubers.

    Bisharp (open)
    Besides the fact that Bisharp looks like a total badass, it does have a trick going for it in the trenches of Ubers. With a relatively strong 125 Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB priority Sucker Punch, Bisharp can make for a force to be reckoned with. Dark STAB is quite good, and with a Steel typing granting it many resistances, it can grab numerous opportunities to set up. It also has Low Kick to dent Steel-types, which is also a plus. But as it is, Bisharp is painfully slow, and when combined with how incredibly unreliable Sucker Punch is, some faster opponents can really be an annoyance and take advantage of its presence. A nasty 4x weakness to Fighting does not help its case, and Pokemon such as Arceus-Fighting and Terrakion can take advantage of that. Still, Bisharp is very usable in Ubers.

    Charizard (open)
    To put it bluntly, Charizard is a shitty Pokemon in Ubers. While I know it may be your favorite starter and all, Charizard has simply too many flaws to be of any use in Ubers. Being a Fire-type in a metagame infested with Kyogre is not good; and it is not going to be able to do much damage to the king of Ubers. Charizard also has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, and combined with the residual damage from Solar Power, it is simply too easy to wear down. Charizard is also sorely outclassed by Reshiram and Ho-Oh, both of who have legitimate ways to damage Kyogre and qualities to mitigate that Stealth Rock weakness. Always consider your other options before using Charizard. There are many.

    Deoxys (open)
    Outclassed is the perfect word to describe Deoxys. While it has good offensive stats comparable to Rayquaza, Deoxys-A is a better pokemon to use offensively, as it has better offensive stats and since both deoxys-n and A have poor defenses, the loss of bulk doesn't matter. Deoxys-S does the whole entry hazards thing better due to it's higher speed and better defenses. Deoxys's only real niche is as an offensive dual screener set. and frankly, Mewtwo, Metagross and even Espeon and Arceus- Psychic are better options. Deoxys-N is one of the worst ubers in the game.

    Deoxys-S (open)
    Deoxys-S, armed with an excellent movepool and a blistering Speed stat, is an ideal lead for offensive teams seeking to quickly establish entry hazard support and then make use of offensive pressure to win the match. However, Deoxys-S's fairly disappointing defenses and lack of offensive presence mean that it works best as a suicide lead (as any decently powerful move will knock it to its Focus Sash). and that opposing Magic Bounce users will completely shut it down. It's a solid A-tier Pokemon though, because Access to Stealth Rock and Spikes combined with its unrivaled speed tier mean Deoxys-S will often ensure that the opponent's Pokemon will pay dearly for every switch. Furthermore, a plethora of support options, including Magic Coat, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick and Fire Punch allow it to get past some of its conventional checks/counters, such as Forretress and set-up sweepers. Though running Deoxys-S often means that the user will essentially begin each match down 5-6, this should not discourage players from using Deoxys-S, as despite its faults, it has the ability to reliably fulfill its role (clutter the battlefield with shit), and if the hazards do their job, they will usually more than make up for the deficit.

    Salamence (open)
    One might initially question the use of Salamence in Ubers due to his relatively subpar offensive stats compared to the many other Dragons lurking about in the tier. Despite this, he has a few tricks up his wings to give him a chance in Ubers. For one, he has a solid speed tier of 100, outspeeding all those base 90s, 95s, and Genesect, as well as speed tying with Palkia. Most importantly though, Dream World blessed him with an incredible ability in Moxie. This makes him a vicious Choice Scarf user, as every kill he gets will only make him stronger making him tough to stop. He also can try his hand at a Dragon Dance set, making use of Intimidate to give him more opportunities to set up. Unfortunately, Salamence still has his rather subpar offensive stats. As such, He can't use a mixed set some other Ubers Dragons can, giving him issues with breaking through physically bulky Pokemon without a boost. He also faces big competition with other Dragons such as Palkia as a Choice Scarfer and Rayquaza as a Dragon Dance user. Still, Salamence can still prove to be a worthy asset to a team should he be used to his advantages. Salamence has also been specifically used as a partner to Rayquaza, with one loosening up the other's checks and counters.

    Omastar" (open)
    Omastar is a very dangerous Pokemon in Ubers, thanks to its powerful ability Swift Swim. A Modest Omastar can outrun and OHKO Mewtwo and Darkrai with Surf or Hydro Pump, and Shaymin-S with Ice Beam. Its Rock typing also allows it to win one on one with ExtremeKiller Arceus so long as rain is up. Shell Smash gives Omastar a way to double its Special Attack and Speed. If it gets off a smash in the rain and Omastar has hazard support, it can sweep entire teams. However, getting off a Smash is not always easy, as it usually needs to come in on a choice-locked Ice Beam or Fire Blast. Bluffing a revenge kill is also an option, though this requires the opponent to switch out, which will not always happen. Its mediocre typing gives it undesirable weaknesses to Electric, Fighting, Grass, and Ground type moves, making it easy to kill Omastar if you can get a hit on it. Finally, though Omastar isn't useless in sand due to the special defense boost it gets there, it really needs rain to be up to pose a significant threat. All in all, Omastar can be devastating if you are good at predicting.

    Groudon (open)
    As the sun-bringing behemoth it is, Groudon has a lot to live up to in the Ubers metagame. No worries, because Groudon is easily one of the most reliable Pokémon in the game; it will certainly not dissapoint. Its ability Drought fuels a whole spectra of teams, making monster such as Reshiram and Ho-oh almost impossible to switch in to, as well as weakening Kyogre's Water STAB. Common sets include the defensive support set, which is a reliable way to phaze out the dreaded ExtremeKiller Arceus at least once per game, and has the added benefit of having the invaluable move Stealth Rock by default. There is more, however. As Groudon has the strongest Earthquake in the game, it can deal tremendous damage with offensive sets utilizing Swords Dance, Rock Polish, or both. a double dancing set consisting of Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Earthquake and Stone Edge.

    Arceus-Ghost (open)
    Boasting perfect coverage and ridiculous versatility, Arceus-Ghost is a threat that every team needs to prepare for. Its potency is only compounded by its ability to spinblock, allowing it to switch in on opponents like Forretress and Excadrill and gain momentum while preventing a spin. That said, Arceus-Ghost's real power comes in its versatility; this is why it's so hard to counter. Defensive counters to the common Calm Mind set are often massacred by a Swords Dance set, and vice versa. Even more offensive checks to certain offensive sets, like Tyranitar, are destroyed by a defensive set, smacking an unsuspecting opponent with Will-O-Wisp and effectively neutering them for the rest of the match.

    Genesect (open)
    Arguably the best scarfer in the Ubers tier, Genesect sees use on both offensive and defensive teams. With Download, Genesect's U-Turn packs a punch; offensive teams appreciate the instant momentum and pressure that Genesect provides. Likewise, Iron Head and Ice Beam enable Genesect to quickly switch from revenge killing to cleaning. Genesect's typing allows it to switch in on attacks from Mewtwo, Arceus-Grass, Kyurem-W, Darkai, and others and deliver a powerful blow with U-Turn or one of its coverage moves. It also allows to be one of the only Pokemon consistently able to revenge kill both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza.

    Giratina (open)
    Access to a Ghost-typing, dual base 120 Defenses, a gigantic base 150 HP stat combined with valuable resistances to Water-, Fire-, Electric-, and Grass-type moves makes Giratina the bulkiest spin blocker in the game! This allows it to run both a physically defensive set that can wall Ho-Oh lacking Life Orb and specially defensive spread that allows it to become one of the few Pokemon that can absorb Kyogre's Rain and Choice Specs boosted Water Spout! Its walling capabilities ensure that no team is disappointed with its performance. It can even take advantage of its enormous bulk to run a decent Calm Mind set and try to sweep. What's keeping it from reaching S rank though? The answer is simple; it can't hurt anything. Twin base 100 offenses are nothing pretty to glance at, and by completely investing in defensive, it becomes hard for Giratina-a to defeat its foes. The only way for Giratina-a to really kill anything, is if a lot of hazards are present, only then will it be able to spam Dragon Tail or Roar and weaken a team. This gives it problems against Rapid Spin users like Forretress and Tentacruel, as they can just setup entry hazards in front of Giratina as they know it can't do anything to them but use Dragon Tail or burn them. To add to the pain, Giratina lacks reliable recovery outside of Rest, and its Dragon-typing makes it weak to the common Draco Meteors and Ice Beams that fly around in the tier, which takes a toll on its bulk. This isn't enough to stop Giratina though. Its one of the few users of Resttalk in Ubers as it can actually survive most of the time to wake up and use Rest again. Its Specially Defensive spread is strong enough to tank even a super effective Draco Meteor from most Dragons in the tier should it not be boosted by Life Orb! There is no wall that can tank hits like Giratina, and if there is they lack the Ghost-typing that prevents Rapid Spin.


    Submissions that were rejected:

    Shedinja: Not a sufficient explanation of Shedinja's primary flaws.
    Tyranitar: Innaccuracies; overemphasizes sand sweepers, fails to mention Pursuit
    Metagross: Innaccurate; makes no mention of its ability to answer Lati@s or access to Stealth Rock
    Kingdra: Makes no metion at all to mixed or fully special sets
    Dugtrio: Written too poorly
    Giratina-O: Makes no mention of issues with recovery; no mention of mix sets; no mention of Shadow Sneak for revenging Mewtwo / Lati@s; no mention of SubCM.
    Arceus-Psychic: Rambles
    Garchomp: Makes literally no mention to what roles Garchomp can play.

    -------

    For the love of god guys, please stop saying "all in all". Also stop referencing lower tiers please.

    Let's try to hammer out some points you should be trying to include in these:

    • What primary roles does this Pokemon perform? How does it perform them?
    • What can interfere with this Pokemon performing this roles, and/or what aspects of its role does it fail to perform?
    • For more influential Pokemon (A-rank and above), how does this Pokemon affect teambuilding? Do opposing teams take it into account very much?
    • What accommodations need to be made for this Pokemon on your own team?

    Again, try to avoid directly referencing what tier the Pokemon is in. We don't want these to be too short; we want some meat to them. Try to cover as many important points about the Pokemon as possible, without extraneous fluff. Grammar is also very important; if your descriptions don't flow well they're liable to confuse readers and won't be of much use.

    Mr.lol's Giratina is an excellent example of what I'm looking for.

    We reserve the right to make adjustments to everything later as we see fit.
  8. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    944
    Tobes, I actually wrote about Ho-oh in the same post I wrote about Groudon, which you accepted. However, you haven't accepted or written any kind of reason to reject it.

    I guess you must have missed it, but I still expanded it a bit, since I missed some crucial points (therefore I understand if you rejected it, if that was the case).

    Here is the post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4580296&postcount=149
  9. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,331
    Man. Almost all of those rejected were mine. I'll try doing better next time.
    Also, how come pikachu isn't E-Rank when you have charizard there.
    [​IMG] (Deoxys-A)
    Show Hide

    With twin offenses of base 180, 150 speed and a large movepool, Deoxys-A is the definition of offense. It's main role in Ubers is to use it's power,coverage and speed to defeat most of the ubers metagame. For special walls like chansey, superpower can smash through them and obtaining another KO. Like most uber pokemon, it has no counters but many checks. If running the focus sash set, entry hazards, priority and moves with a secondary effect (although it rarely has the secondary effect) will shut that set down. For the life orb set, almost any pokemon with a priority will OHKO the alien. Not to mention Deoxys-A has to kill everything ASAP before the foe can kill it. Most of it's flaws are caused by it's low 50/20/20 defenses. The support it requires it is tremendous. First, you need a pokemon to absorb priority like dialga or Giritina-o. Also, you need to get rid of entry hazards for focus sash deoxys-a. Although it has many flaws, deoxys-a is a great pokemon and caution must be used when facing one.

    Tell me any flaws I have made.
  10. qedragonite

    qedragonite

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    13
    Garchomp
    Show Hide

    Garchomp's primary attributes in Ubers are Sand Veil, his base 102 speed and the terrific coverage granted by his STAB moves. Garchomp's sets can be divided into Choice Scarf sets, and all the rest. Choice Scarf almost always makes Garchomp the fastest dragon in the tier (since Lati@s always use Soul Dew), barring an opposing Tailwind, multiple dragon dances, or ESpeed Rayquaza. This enables him to revenge kill many of the threatening Ubers dragons. However, Garchomp generally needs Stealth Rock, Spikes, or prior damage to take down some of the bulkier dragons like Zekrom, Dialga, the Giratina Formes, or Arceus-Dragon. Choice Scarf can sometimes leave his damage output lacking, enabling bulky Arceus formes hit neutrally by his STAB to set up on him. His non Choice Scarf sets are generally outclassed by other dragons or other sand sweepers, since he has great difficulty setting up in a tier where so many threats outspeed and KO (always barring Sand Veil Hax). Garchomp is a useful scarfer and can be deadly with sand and hazards support, but make sure he isn't outclassed by other dragons before choosing him for your team.
  11. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    Deoxys-A

    Show Hide
    Deoxys-A is an offensive behemoth, with superb base 180 attacking stats and an astonishing base 150 Speed, whose sole function is to utilize these traits to tear through its opponents. Due to its fairly wide movepool, Deoxys-A has very few counters, as it can often hit switch-ins with a super-effective move (for example, Superpower for the pink blobs). A ridiculously powered STAB Psycho Boost will also maul any Pokemon without a resistance to it. Deoxys-A is basically limited to two sets, a Life Orb set for maximum offensive prowess, and a Focus Sash set, usually used as an anti-lead. Keep in mind though, that being grounded, it is weak to all hazards, which severely hinders non-lead Focus Sash variants. In addition, access to the coveted ExtremeSpeed means that it can act as a powerful revenge killer if needed. Though it has unrivaled power, Deoxys-A’s pathetic 50 / 50 / 20 defenses give it a plethora of problems. Poor defenses mean that any Pokemon that can stomach an attack and retaliate back will quickly defeat Deoxys-A, and they render Deoxys-A highly susceptible to priority, namely Giratina-O’s Shadow Sneak and Arceus-Normal’s ExtremeSpeed. Furthermore, Deoxys-A is quite helpless in the face of opponents wielding a Choice Scarf, especially those which can tank an ExtremeSpeed and easily threaten an OHKO. Lastly, Deoxys-A provides little in terms of defensive synergy and team support, and unless it leads, must come in A) after a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch to it or B) after a teammate is KO’d. Deoxys-A is not to be underestimated though, as with its mind-blowing power, it can easily demolish an unprepared team, and hey, it’s bulkier than a Carvanha!


    @Magcargo 2: I was working on this last night and wasn't able to post it after the internet shut off for the night. Didn't mean to do the same Pokemon you did. Sorry!

    @anybody/everybody: if this Deoxys-A turns out alright, I'll probably take Arceus-Fighting next.
  12. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    [​IMG] (Psychic Arceus)
    Show Hide
    While Psychic Arceus does boast base 120 stats across the board, its poor typing makes it difficult to use. If one wants to use Psychic Arceus they have to forgo using any other Arceus-type, and it doesn't help much that Psychic Arceus's niches aren't that big. All it boasts over its other forms offensively is a Calm Mind set that has STAB Psyshock, which allows the god to 2HKO Chansey after a Calm Mind as well as win all Calm Mind wars should Psychic Arceus not be facing Dark Arceus. Psychic isn't that strong of an offensive-type though, and the best way to complement Psychic Arceus's coverage is with Focus Blast, which makes it completely walled by the likes of Lugia. Defensively, its Psychic typing doesn't help in providing resists either unless its switching into the uncommon Psychic- and Fighting-type moves. This makes it difficult for Psychic Arceus to effectively use such a set. The unique resistances to Fighting and Psychic-type moves do allow Psychic Arceus to take a unique defensive approach though, and become one of the most reliable checks to Deoxys-A and Mewtwo. Psychic Arceus's unique attributes give it some niches, but its high opportunity cost and effectiveness at performing those niches prevent it from rising to tier any higher then D rank.


    [​IMG] (Ice Arceus)
    Show Hide
    Ice Arceus is one of the few Arceus forms that cannot very well utilize Recover. This stems from one fact, Ice is a terrible type defensively. Ice Arceus will have difficulty switching into any move, as not only is weak to all entry hazards, the only move it resists is Ice Beam. Ice, however, is a great offensive type, scoring super effective hits on most of the great walls and dragons in the metagame, namely Giratina-a, Lugia, Groudon, and Latias. This allows Ice Arceus to become a Calm Mind sweeper that's a little less bulky but a lot more dangerous then its other Arceus forms if given support. While this does give Ice Arceus a solid niche, the fact that using Ice Arceus prevents one from using another Arceus form creates a lot of opportunity cost, which prevents Ice Arceus from rising to a tier any higher then C rank.


    [​IMG] (Shedinja)
    Show Hide
    While it may seem that Shedinja can terrorize Ubers as it is immune to many common attacks, this is all but an illusion. Ubers possesses everything Shednja hates. The largest problems are the entry hazards and the extremely bulky spin blockers. Shedinja will find it difficult if not impossible to switch into attacks because of the presence of entry hazards, and its nearly impossible to simply use Rapid Spin to blow away the hazards due to the powerful spin blockers the roam the tier. To add to the pain, most of the Pokemon in the Ubers tier have coverage to hit Shedinja with. The only thing that normally doesn't have coverage is Kyogre, but Shedinja cannot touch some variants of Kyogre. Defensive variants can just phaze Swords Dance variants with Roar, or if Shedinja lacks Swords Dance, Kyogre can just sit in front of the bug and use Rest, as Kyogre knows that Shedinja cannot touch it. This exposes another one of Shedinja's flaws, its offenses are pathetic. Shedinja needs Swords Dance to pose a serious threat to any Uber team, and even with Swords Dance, nothing changes the fact its slow. Most Steel-types like Dialga can even take on a +6 Shedinja, avoid the 2HKO from X-Scizzor, and proceed to 2HKO back with Fire Blast if Shedinja uses Focus Sash. While rare, Tyranitar still exists in the Uber tier, meaning for Shedinja to be truly successful, it will require support from Kyogre or Groudon. Shedinja might be able to be used successfully if it has an entire team dedicated to supporting it, but this is true for every Pokemon. Even then, it cannot be used successfully consistently due to the fact every team will be paranoid of it walling its team and try to stop it all costs thanks to team preview. Shedinja truly is a waste of a teamslot, and is banished to E rank as a result.


    Regardless of whose Deoxys-A is going to be used, a mention of its ability to lay entry hazards, I think should be mentioned :P.

    Criticism for these 3 mons is welcome too!
  13. puregenius

    puregenius

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    198
    zekrom

    Show Hide
    Zekrom is a powerful offensive threat in the uber metagame. Base 150 Atk and 120 SpA and a unique combination of Dragon and Electric STABs allow it to break past the bulkiest walls of ubers, namely Lugia, Chansey, Giratina/-O, Skarmory and Ho-oh. Even the bulky Groudon can be easily 2hko'ed by Draco Meteor. Its viable sets include Choice Scarf and Band, Mixed and SubHC. The Band and Mixed sets are fantastic all purpose wall breakers, while the Scarf set is an excellent revenge killer of the ever present Kyogre. Sub Hone Claws Zekrom can set up on the likes of Ferrothorn and gear Zekrom up for a sweep. Zekrom also has access to the limited Volt Switch, which allows it to act as an excellent offensive pivot. However Zekrom is not without drawbacks. Weaknesses to the extremely common Dragon, Ice and Ground type moves makes switching in a difficult task. Its fairly low base 90 speed also means that it is susceptible to revenge killers, however Tailwind can be used to mitigate this problem. These flaws prevent Zekrom from becoming S Rank, but he still deserves his place among the A Rank


    Show Hide
    So yeh, I think Zekrom should be moved up a rank, as the A Rank criteria is more fitting.
    Zekrom can sweep a large portion of the meta, but does have flaws (mention above).
    Consider the write-up as my argument
    If not, change the last sentence to:
  14. superstar

    superstar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    318
    Ferrothorn

    Show Hide
    Say hello one of the best defensive Pokemon in the game. Although Giratina-A has better defenses, and Lugia has Multiscale, you will see Ferrothorn much more often than these two. Ferrothorn's incredible typing means that it can effectively check a large portion of the metagame, including the omnipresent Kyogre, Latias, and Palkia. Best of all, nearly all the things it has problems with can be massacred by Kyogre, its best partner .On top of this, unlike Giratina-A or Lugia, who can do nothing but phaze or status the things they are supposed to wall, Ferrothorn can set up lethal Spikes and Stealth Rock that Uber teams hate so much, as well as make its counters think twice about switching in with the threat of STAB Gyro Ball or Thunder Wave. It almost single-handedly makes most Swift Swimmers much less viable and every rain/weatherless team needs one or two ways to get around it.
    Ferrothorn's biggest problem is that lacks recovery outside of Leech Seed, and thus can be worn down over the course of a match. It also has a lot of trouble with sun teams, especially Ho-Oh. However, as one of the best non-Specs Kyogre checks, the best hazard layer in Ubers, and an overall great defensive Pokemon, Ferrothorn should be considered on every rain team.
  15. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,331
    I would like to add ninetales, politoed, mew, vapoereon and D-nite to the E-rank. They get a lot of usage for some strange reason, despite not having a real niche. Maybe mew, at best, should be D-rank.
  16. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,751
    New players often put illegal abilities on OU mons, thus sending them to Ubers.
    Kingdra with SS + Politoed, Blaziken + Ninetales, etc. It has nothing to do with viability or usage.
  17. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,331
    So they use illegal combinations and use those in ubers? Still, Mew gets way to much usage, so at least add that onto E-Rank. Dragonite and vaporeon get somewhat high usage despite not having a real niche.
  18. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,552
    E-rank is kind of reserved for Pokemon that are memeticly bad and overused; the Pokemon that should never be used in Ubers but still are is a fairly large list and mostly common sense. Charizard is iconic for the ladder scrub (we've written two Smog articles on it ffs), and Shedinja looks deceptively viable when in reality it's just trash. There aren't really any Pokemon that have similar cases to these two, and there's no reason to clog the list with completely unviable shit like Torterra or Feraligatr.

    (Actually Sheer Force Feraligatr might be hilarious now that I think about it.)
  19. rileydelete

    rileydelete

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    324
    I believe Whimsicott should be added to the Viability Ranking Thread. It's certainly no S, A, or B tier, member, but it's certainly annoying and has a key niche as a disruptor.

    With access to Prankster and a movepool containing a huge amount of status moves, including Encore, Taunt, and the SubSeed combo, it's no laughing matter.

    I've been experimenting with it. It can literally Subseed threats as mighty as Dialga to their deaths and then do it again to the next Pokemon sent in.

    Of course, it's beaten by Grass Type Ubers. Shaymin, Grassceus, and Ferrothorn come to mind.

    Still, there's no way Whimsicott is high on the list, but it certainly earns a spot in a lower tier.
  20. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,331
    Whimsicott sucks. While it may be good in theory, almost every single grass type and magic guard user walls this thing. Ferrothorn can gyro ball and break it's subs and if it encores, it will allow ferrothorn to set up more layers of spikes, or it dies to a gyro ball. There is literally no reason to use this over thundorus-I, saybleye and tornadus-i outside of leech seed and encore. AT BEST, it is a D-rank pokemon. Also, Shaymin-s is a better sub seeder because of it's better bulk and special attack.
  21. rileydelete

    rileydelete

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    324
    Again, Whimsicott is not an amazing Pokemon but it can do well as a disruptor and with proper team support. Also Whimsicott can use a taunt + encore combo to halt Ferrothorn.

    Also, Whimsicott stands out from Shaymin in that it's faster due to prankster.

    Whimsicotts not a high-tier Pokemon. But it's usable.
  22. Sweep

    Sweep
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    848
    Liepard

    Show Hide
    Though largely outclassed by Thundurus, Liepard has a small niche in Ubers. Its access to Prankster and solid support movepool enable it to be an adequate anti-lead. It can Thunder Wave sweepers, Taunt Deoxys-S before it has an opportunity to set up hazards, use Swagger to annoy the opponent, and take advantage of its opponent's attack boost with STAB Foul Play. Though Focus Sash is the preferred option to ensure Liepard can survive at least one attack, Leftovers are an option in conjunction with Substitute to attempt to annoy your opponent. Though good at stopping hazard setters, Liepard struggles against bulky offensive leads who don't mind Thunder Wave. It also hates Lum Berry Extreme Killer due to Liepard's inability to take strong priority. Liepard's biggest problem are its terrible defenses, which prevent it from lasting very long in a tier filled with powerful attackers. Overall, Liepard is outclassed by Thundurus, which can do everything Liepard can (except receive STAB on Foul Play) in addition to having a strong Special Attack stat. Despite this, Liepard is usable in Ubers.
  23. Steven Snype

    Steven Snype
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,035
    Heatran (open)
    Heatran works mainly as a dick to stall teams as its Base 77 Speed actually means something in a metagame where Base 90 Speed is considered slow and Pokemon in that tier generally invest in bulk rather than Speed, as with some Speed investment, Heatran can afford to run some Speed investment to shut down faster defensive pivots that typically lack Earthquake, namely Giratina and Support Dialga that lack Earth Power and Aura Sphere, in addition to the Steels it threatens with its Fire-type STAB move, Ferrothorn, and Forretress, with a combination of WoW, Taunt, and Roar. Its Steel-typing and defensive stats let it take an uninvested Draco Meteor or other relatively weak attack while still maintaining a decent amount of health. That Toxic immunity is key to checking Lugia. With sun support from Groudon, Heatran can attempt to be a Choice Scarf revenge killer with STAB sun-boosted Overheat. Unfortunately, that's pretty much it for Heatran as without Sun support, Rain and Sand diminish Heatran's power and weaknesses. It's too slow to do anything offensively and lacks a proper recovery move to be a truly defensive Pokemon. Spin support is absolutely necessary given Spikes easily wears down Heatran. Most Pokemon that run a Dragon-type move generally have a coverage move to hit Steels and Heatran is only immune to Fire moves, and even then, Heatran is a risky answer to Reshiram and Kyurem-W in the sun since it loses its immunity to Fire-type moves thanks to Turboblaze, and in the case of Kyurem-W, loses to Earth Power. Though Heatran has a fantastic niche, it requires a lot of team support to pull off really well.
  24. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    323
    In that case, can we call it "F-rank", where F stands for "fail"?
    "E" might imply that they're a tier below "D" (as in, still usable pokemon) instead of hilariously bad.
  25. superstar

    superstar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    318
    Tyranitar

    Show Hide
    Although you may think at first that Tyranitar has no place in Ubers, sand is certainly a viable playstyle. Tyranitar provides sand that boosts the special defense of Arceus-Rock, doubles Excadrill's speed, and helps to wear down opponents. Tyranitar itself can take advantage of its Sandstorm-boosted special defense to check Palkia and Dialga by hitting them hard with Crunch and Superpower respectively. It can also Pursuit and kill the Lati twins as well as take a heavy chunk out of a Kyogre locked into Thunder or Ice Beam as it switches out. Overall, sand is viable in Ubers to combat the other weathers, and Tyranitar is a good choice for a Ubers team that thinks outside the rain/sun box. Despite this, Tyranitar has many flaws that make it B-rank. Unlike in OU, its attack stat is average at best for Ubers, and its speed leaves much to be desired. It is difficult to keep Tyranitar alive longer than the opposing Groudon/Kyogre, and it faces stiff competition from Hippodown, who counters a variety of physical threats and has reliable recovery and phazing.


    Lucario
    Show Hide
    In DPP Ubers, Lucario was one of the most feared sweepers. Times have changed, and now Lucario is no longer as great a threat as it once was. Its advantages as a sweeper include a powerful Close Combat, decent base 90 speed, and great priority in Extremespeed. The primary issue with Lucario is that is nearly totally outclassed by Extremekiller Arceus, which offers better offenses, better defenses, and STAB on Extremespeed. Lucario is also difficult to set up with its awful defenses, and is extremely vulnerable to revenge killing by the Extremekiller check every team has. Despite this, Lucario does offer some advantages. It can Close Combat Groudon for a 2HKO and do the same to Skarmory, and can OHKO Ferrothorn. Overall, Lucario is a niche sweeper that can occasionally be a good fit for one's team, but usually Rayquazza or Arceus-Normal will do the job better.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)