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Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. superbadd

    superbadd

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    I agree here. Milotic has a little bit of every water type. Suicune's typing, slowking's special defense(actually 10 points better), a recovery move similar to slowbro's, and a unique ability that lets it be as specially bulky as slowking and as physically bulky as swampert. It's all of these traits combined is what makes milotic worth using. That's enough to justify its use in B tier.
  2. Bent1ey

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    Milotic also has access to Hypnosis, Haze and Dragon Pulse (to hit Kingdra for super efective damage?), which are niches that the other Bulky Waters really don't share. The competition is pretty though between Water types, but that doesn't mean Milotic is clearly outclassed... The niches may not be as important as other in the current meta, though.
  3. hilarious

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    Nobody can switch into Chandelure with impunity lol no idea how you could think that, especially with the fact Trick Chandelure has been legal for a while now. Specs Energy Ball always gets a 2hko and even Specs Shadow Ball I am sure would 2hko Milotic unless it was in very high health with high spdef investment (about the same as calm with 56 spdef).

    95/79/125 defenses dont scream out amazing to me, amazing in my opinion is something with the defenses of P2 which when uninvested has defenses like 85/145/150 or something similar to that, it becomes much better when invested because of how eviolite works.

    I can't actually think of any boosting sweepers Milotic can counter except guys like Scrafty and Suicune who can still own Milotic in a last Pokemon scenario. Sure it can "check" them by (p)hazing them but not without taking at the very least 70% damage and possibly given no healing time.

    Plus Victini is going to not be nature locked with Bolt Strike now and that will easily 2hko Milotic no matter what and easily scores a clean OHKO with Band Victini with just SR versus Calm Milotic.

    Slowbro has weaknesses to Bug and Dark And Ghost but Milotic can barely counter those guys anyways, not being able to switch into a Sharpedos Crunch or a Heracross' Megahorn sort of sucks. Even Yanmega might win if its specs modest and Milotic is weakened a bit or if Yanmega is LO and gets a lucky flinch.

    Yeah and Milotic really has nothing on the heavy hitters physically in UU it for instance with that calm natured set is 2hkod sometimes by Jolly LO Darm's FlareBlitz after SR and leftovers. getting 2hko by a resisted hit is not what I am looking for in a wall. The only Band pokemon it can hope to counter really is azu. Good old LO Ambipom can 2hko Calm Milotic with Return and SR.

    Marvel scale is cool but being Toxiced isn't and being burned means you have an even harder time against the likes of PZ and random Houndooms who if they can't KO you (and frankly they proabably will) they will still weaken you t miserable health and only if you happen to outspeed the entirety of your oppoennts team will you be able to recover. you won't.

    So yeah idk if you still think Milotic is B rank but the Milotic set that I like to use that I tried out in a research week a couple months ago was a Timid LO attacking tank, was pretty mediocre and relied on surprise heavily.
  4. silenced

    silenced

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    While I don't have much experience with milotic myself (note to self, really need to make a new team), I did some calculations for SpDef milotic vs specs chandy with a modest nature for chandy's four most used attacks.

    Site used was http://kalashnikov.pokecenter.ru/damage/

    252+ SpAtk Chandelure Fire Blast vs 216HP 252+ SpDef Milotic
    28-32%

    252+ SpAtk Chandelure HP fighting vs 216HP 252+ SpDef Milotic
    22-25%

    252+ SpAtk Chandelure Energy Ball vs 216HP 252+ SpDef Milotic
    49-59%

    252+ SpAtk Chandelure Shadow Ball vs 216HP 252+ SpDef Milotic
    37-44%

    So prior damage or at least 2 layers of entry hazards are required for the 2HKO from shadow ball. As for energy ball, while it's an easy 2HKO, there is a problem, specifically 4MSS. Chandelure has to drop a coverage move for trick, and of all its moves to drop, my thoughts would be losing energy ball, since HP fighting gives perfect neutral coverage with shadow ball alone, as well as a way to put a dent into snorlax. If it does use energy ball...well I guess you're next best hope is that chandy stays in again to use it, while you get a pursuit trapper in.

    Banded snorlax with Pursuit, IMO, seems the only remotely plausible counter to chandy anymore, surviving most of its attacks and KOing it with pursuit on the switch, if you're skilled/lucky enough to get that scenario to happen. P2 is almost, if not as greatly hard pressed as milotic to take chandy's attacks, even with maxed out SpDef vs specs, and loses to SubCM (either boosts and FB if flamebody, or PP Stall if flash fire), or requires a very big uphill battle if you use pysch-up for some reason.

    But anyway, in regards to the rest of the arguments, my question would be this: Why are you entertaining the idea of using a special tank to block physical hits? I do realise you would normally want a bulky water for fire types these days, but given the rather...questionable...boost to victini, the only water looking good for that job anymore is swampert, unless you can win the prediction war against the choice locked victini.

    Looking over the UU pokemon list, I do agree milotic is rather hard pressed to phaze with its sets these days, but if you want to phaze, you really want more than one phazer, preferably one that covers up the weaknesses of the other.

    Having anything that can remotely take abuse from chandelure is a pretty good niche to have, as well as take the odd bit of status (although roserade/shaymin should be doing that). Phazing is also useful as at the very least, forcing a pokemon to stop boosting and attack instead does remove the immediate problem of a sweep.

    It's not a great wall as a stand-alone, but no pokemon really is. The closest you get with that these days is the gligar/snorlax core, and even that has it's flaws. I think it could be argued B-rank, as it does fill a niche of phazing and blocking chandelure, with support.
  5. cim

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    It takes no skill or luck at all. If Chandelure comes in, you can bring in Snorlax on anything but the obscenely uncommon Will-o-Wisp, and then use Pursuit for the guaranteed KO. It's a hard counter.
  6. hilarious

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    silenced--you do realize that those calcs you present are using a Milotic EV spead that wasn't even mentioned right? the set that was referred to and that is standard on this website's pokedex runs only 56spdef evs along with max hp and takes 42.74 - 50.38% from a Modest Specs Shadow Ball from Chandelure which can be a 2hko with just SR and is basically a sure 2hko if it gets a spdef drop or if milotic is weakened just 5%. Also Chandelure are more commonly running HP if they aren't max speed so Milotic is not OHKOing Chandelure back - ever - even after SR damage.

    But if we do use your spread which incidentally still cannot stomach Energy Balls you lose to almost every physical attacker. And you still can't really beat most boosting attackers like NP Mew (psyshock, Tbolt) or CM Raikou (lol). All Flygon can 2hko you with Outrage assuming they have SR up and Bandgon can even OHKO you after SR and Spikes or if you're at about 80% health. Weavile can OHKO you if it has boosted and has SR. Band Victini can OHKO you with Fusion Bolt and SR nevermind BoltStrike lol. Jolly Scarf Darmanitan can potentially 2hko you with Flare Blitz and SR. This is very bad.

    Also I use physical examples because people have been saying Milotic is a good mixed wall, which I dont think it is. And imo Slowbro>>Swampert all day while Swampert is still at least as good as Milotic.

    Incidentally Specs Chandelure can 3hko Snorlax with Specs HP Fighting, which may turn to a 2hko with a little damage, while CB Lax cannot OHKO with Pursuit if Chandelure stays in even after SR so if Snorlax tries to come in as Chandelure uses Hp Fighting Snorlax may actually lose the match up.

    Chandelure doesnt really need 5 moves at all it is perfectly happy with being able to murder everything with Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/Enerygy Ball/HP Fighting on a specs set because instead of tricking walls he can simply KO them (fblast for instance 2hkos Umbreon). Very rarely would you need trick.
  7. cim

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    Okay, so Chandelure 3HKOs with a Choice locked move that a ton of Pokemon are immune to and isn't that threatening to anything that resists it. If you bring Snorlax in on this single edge case, you can either bring in something else to take the second HP Fighting or go for the Crunch / Earthquake. But really, Specs isn't all that common, and HP Fighting is not a great move to blindly use.
  8. kokoloko

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    @Milotic - It's main issue is honestly not that complicated... its just not good in this super fast paced and highly offensive metagame. If you run some calcs you'll notice that the stuff its supposed to be walling do way too much damage to it, meaning it'll have to spend a lot of time using Recover, leading to free turns for the opponent and killing all your momentum. Low C rank seems right.

    @Lax vs Chandelure - CB Snorlax is always 2HKO'd by Specs Hidden Power Fighting after SR, but cim is right, locking yourself into such a move is usually not worth it unless you predict right two turns in a row (when Lax comes in and whether it'll switch out so you can double). You both forgot about Flame Body, though, which makes Pursuit a lot less "safe". Still,CBLax is as close as you get to countering Chand.
  9. Qegixar

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    I think Porygon2 should be moved up to A. It gets 3 extremely viable abilities that allow it to play either defensive or offensive, and the moves to do both. The only thing in the tier that OHKOs it unboosted is CB Heracross/Mienshao. Plus, offensive variants can hit hard with powerful download boosted attacks and it pairs extremely well with Cofagrigus and trick room. Recover is a great move, and the only thing that shuts it down reliably is toxic. It's not quite as good as Snorlax, but it can perform a similar function on the special tank side.

    Galvantula is not good enough for B. I would say C at the best. 97 Special Attack is just not enough to break through the many defensive Pokemon in UU, even with 91% accurate Thunders. Plus it needs rapid spin support if it is going to keep Volt Switching. As cool as it is, there are much better things to use as speedy special attackers.

    Durant definitely doesn't belong way down in C. I personally think it is the best physical attacker in the tier, but I can understand that it has major flaws that keep it from being S-rank material. My vote is for A-rank, or B-rank at the very least. It needs virtually no team support, outspeeds almost everything in the tier, and can OHKO most Pokemon after a Hone Claws. The only things that scare it are scarfed special attackers, Raikou, and physical walls like Gligar and Cofagrigus. With the addition of Superpower in BW2, it gained the fighting type move it sorely needed to break steel types and Porygon2. Rock Slide deals with fire types and Zapdos, and X-Scissor gets the KO on almost everything else.

    I would be in favor of bringing Gligar up to A as well, because it walls so well. I know this one has already been discussed in the thread and I don't have too much to add.

    Finally, I think Flygon should be dropped to B. It may be fast and have decent immunities, but its offensive power is kind of poor. I love the Pokemon, but I've used it enough to know that there are a lot of Pokemon that it simply can't touch. There isn't enough that it deals with well to call a "significant portion of the metagame."
  10. PK Gaming

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    =====
    update
    =====

    Milotic up from C-tier ==> B-tier
    Venomoth up from B-tier ==> A-tier
    Durant up from C-tier ==> B-tier

    Milotic moved up because it isn't "strictly" outclassed by Slowbro(king). It's a decent bulky water that checks a good portion of the offensive threats in UU, and unlike bro / kind, it's naturally kind of fast too which is relevant against threats like CB Druddigon (Milotic naturally outspeeds +atk natured Druddigon and only needs to invest a modest amount of Speed evs to outspeed it).

    Venomoth moved up to A-tier because it's a bastard Pokemon. It hasn't been much of a presence in UU for some time now (I remember it being SUPER common early on) but it's still a goddamn threat, forever and ever. If you haven't noticed, tournament players always default to Venomoth on their offensive teams; its way too easy to use and it makes Pokemon like Mew, Zapdos, etc impossible to deal with. I'd even argue that its S-tier since Quiver Dancing is overpowered but nobody uses it unfortunately.

    Ninja Edit:
    Yeah Durant is definitely B-tier material. It destroys most of the common team archetypes.

    Sorry hilarious, you had some good points, but I just can't see how Cryo is on par with any of the C-tiered Pokemon. Maybe I should be stricter with the tiers (perhaps drop Galvantula to C-tier, etc).
  11. Silvershadow234

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    Try using Choice Band flygon-CB Flygon hits incredibly hard and has excellent dual STAB's. It's only real counter is Bronzong, as pretty much everything else is demolished by either an Outrage or Earthquake.
  12. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I'd like to nominate Bisharp for B-Rank. Honestly, Bisharp is pretty dangerous. After a Swords Dance boost, it is one hell of a deadly Pokemon. With Sucker Punch, most offensive Pokemon cringe, as it hits pretty damn hard. Iron Head or Low Kick wrap up the coverage and hit other threats hard. Substitute is very useful, since it allows Bisharp to evade status, and it can put some pressure on the opponent. As soon it it starts sweeping, it can tear the team apart. It's pretty damn good for a Pokemon 4x weak to Fighting.
  13. Bent1ey

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    So now we can actually nominate Snover for this, I'll go ahead and say my pace:

    It has decent defenses, Leech Seed and an interesting combo type. Hail is a powerful effect and the ability to set it automatically is definitively it's main appeal. Other than that, I find that Snover is mediocre and it needs a lot of support to be worth your time, it's weak to the most used and powerful pokemon in the tier and it doesn't have nearly as many options as Abomasnow would.

    A low B pokemon in my opinion.

    Question: have any of you tested Roserade's newfound DW ability? I haven't be able to bred and battle with mine so I'm kind of clueless about it.
  14. Chimera404

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    Natural Cure > Technician unless you're running Aromatherapy on a defensive set. Technician doesn't really do much for Roserade to be honest; the only base 60 move worth mentioning is Magical Leaf which can provide Roserade with a reliable, never-miss base 90 power move in place of the much riskier Leaf Storm. Essentially a Special Leaf Blade, though that's actually pretty decent. It also gets Razor Leaf and (lol) Round which are base 55 and 60 respectively but this is just stupid considering its puny base Attack. If Venoshock were just a bit weaker, it'd be a viable option to run on a Technician set, giving two base 90 moves with no drawback, but as it is it's kind of pointless. Natural Cure does wonders for it as it can literally move in to absorb any status, not just Poison.

    So no, Technician Roserade is not competitive grade unless you're a pro gimmick user.
  15. Bent1ey

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    Mmmmh... I thought a more powerful Hidden Power could be useful in certain sets, it is true that the movepool is poor to fully exploit Technician, but Roserade has some non-damaging options to make up for it. I'd need to do calcs on the Hidden Power boost to actually measure if it's worth a dime.
  16. blaZofgold

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    Let's give my 2 cents on this:

    Bronzong should be a B rank. Steel-Psychic is one of the BEST typings around, shared only with Jirachi and Metagross way up in OU. With Levitate, it can only be sufficiently damaged by Fire-type moves, which works in its favor because it can draw out the dangerous Chandelure for revenge killing. It is probably the most consistent Stealth Rocker out there, as well as a good support with Toxic, Dual Screens, etc. Finally, Gyro Ball hits like a truck even without any attack investment, often 2HKOing the 100+ speed tier.

    Slowking has practically nothing over Slowbro. And since both Meloetta and Virizion have higher base Sp.DEF with better stats in general (Meloetta has crazy Sp.ATK and Virizion has a great SPD), Slowking is too impractical to deserve that B rank. C is more appropriate.

    Bisharp is just as reliable as Honchkrow at SuckerSweeping. Swords Dance alone makes Bisharp a ridiculous threat, since it doesn't have to depend on Moxie kills to boost its attack. B-rank definitely.

    Rhyperior simply gets washed away, literally. Megahorn, Stone Edge, and Rock Blast are also horribly unreliable in terms of accuracy. There are better ways of getting SR on the field, and Cofagrigus easily handles similar physical threats. C-rank.
  17. Ernesto

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    Slowking does have a few important things over Slowbro, not only Nasty Plot, but also Dragon Tail and being a surefire counter to all Kingdra sets. To be honest, if I wanted to use Physical Tank Slowbro I'd probably go for max/max Bold Slowking, but for a Calm Mind or a Specs variant I'd always stick to Slowbro. Offensive Trick Room? Slowking, for sure. B rank fits quite nicely for it.
    I agree with Bisharp, it's a real threat from Team Preview and I always have to prevent myself from giving it a free switch in. Intimidate doesn't work against it, so it's really hard for stall teams to beat it (the can still phaze it, though). Bronzong, to me, is just not very good in this offensive metagame, it's not outclassed by any means but it just completely removes momentum. I'd only use it as a support mon on a TR team, or to let a slow late-game sweeper come in unscathed with TR+Normal Gem Explosion.
    Finally, Rhyperior is extremely good. If you feel differently you've probably not used or fought well-built Rhyperior. It's one of the few SR setters that have little to fear from Stallbreaker Crobat, it has solid offensive prowess and has an amazing ability in Solid Rock. It's also one of the very few Pokemon capable of reliably beating SubCM Raikou and Offensive SubRoost Zapdos – unless they have HP Grass, but that leaves them walled by Grass-types to no end. Sure, lack of reliable recovery hurts it, but it's the same with Snorlax and people can agree with it being S rank. I'd think that it fits A rank quite nicely, but high B rank is OK too...
  18. blaZofgold

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    I disagree in general with your Bronzong and Rhyperior comments, Bronzong absorbs practically anything with impunity. Crobat has nothing on it: it's Brave Bird barely scratches, it's poison moves don't work and Gyro Ball hurts like nothing else, an easy 2HKO with SR. I can't see how Bronzong is outclassed over Rhyperior...they should at least be in the same tier.

    I still hold my position also on Slowking, it also doesn't deal with Dragon Dance Kingdra as well as Slowbro can.
  19. Bent1ey

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    If Bronzong 2HKOs with Gyroball Crobat can PPstall with Roost right? He'd actually gain Hp since you needed the SR damage to beat it. Also I don't think the argument was that the Crobat vs Bronzong matchup was anything important, but rather the fact Bronzong loses momentum while Crobat keeps the ball in your field, making it much more fit for an offensive metagame.
  20. spuds4ever

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    Rhyperior is still very good. Runs a lot of viable sets ranging from CB to specially defensive, both of which still function great. Specially defensive shuts down a lot of popular things like crobat, raikou, togekiss, and snorlax whereas CB is literally the only thing in the tier that can boast a 2hko to everything. Easily B tier, bordering on A tier IMO.

    Though one change I would like to make would be sharpedo down from A tier to B tier. I've found it just doesn't cut the mustard all the times I've used it. Firstly, it can't switch in to literally anything. Secondly, it is ridiculously easy to check. All the opponent has to do is just keep something like crobat, snorlax, zapdos, really anything with bulk healthy and sharpedo is not sweeping. To sweep with sharpedo, you have to have weakened down everything, eleminated all priority (even sucker punch as LO recoil will lower you into that range pretty quickly), and be able to have a team-slot free for something that can't take any hits. Too many flaws for an A ranked mon IMO.

    Can't really comment on slowking as I haven't used it before. Though I agree with bisharp going up.

    I'm a little on the fence with bronzong, on one hand, yes, it can take almost any hit, but what does it actually do aside from getting stealth rock up. While it does wall a fair few things, almost all of them have a way of getting around bronzong quite easily. Curselax smashed bronzong without issue. CB flygon can beat it with fire punch, crobat can hit it hard with superfang, and NP mew can beat it with fire blast. Idk, B class seems a little high I think for something that doesn't really do much and destroys momentum which is immensly important in our current metagame.
  21. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    All your points made about sharpedo are pretty fair. However I would just like to point out one thing.
    Sharpedo can sweep through a significant portion of the tier. It requires a bit more support than some of the other pokemon (see: Kingdra, Azelf, Mew), but it still can. I feel it's more than just a "given offensive niche." With spikes and stealth rock support it's not a TERRIBLY difficult task to keep pokemon like Snorlax down into KO range for sharpedo. Not to mention that the special set actually beats Zapdos, Crobat, and the normal bulky pokemon that check Sharpedo. So while I will agree that sharpedo definitely requires more support than other threats in the tier, I do also feel it's more than just a niche. If you look at the pokemon in B-rank, most of them are niche pokemon and do not possess the ability to sweep teams. There are a few exceptions (Suicune, Scrafty, and Yanmega), but the bulk of them don't really do much.
  22. typon77

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    As a fairly consistent UU player during the hail test, I can tell you that this is completely incorrect. Obviously you have not use Specially Defensive Dragon Tail Rhyperior. It is a check to Fire Types, Zapdos, Raikou, and can even hold its own against Hera if you're sure its not using CC (and its choice). Thanks to Solid Rock, Raikou cannot even come close to OHKOing, only 2HKOing sometimes with Aura Sphere. Sub Zapdos gets mauled by Rock Blast. And thanks to Rhyperior being able to hit hard, it forces enough switches to easily set up stealth rock. Rhyperior is an invaluable pivot mon in this metagame, and should not even be considered for C-Rank. Also, Cofagrigus is 2HKO'd by the physical Fire types because of lacking resistance, and it can't take on special threats nearly as well because its typing doesn't really let it. Also, if you're relying on Cofagrigus as a defensive mon, I'm not sure if you're using Cofagrigus to its full potential. Lastly, Rhyperior forms an excellent partnership with Crobat, as Crobat can take on Rhyperior's biggest enemies, Fighting types, with ease, while heavily damaging the walls that can stay in on Rhyperior's moves with Super Fang, and being able to U-Turn out into Rhyperior for pivots without prediction.
  23. blaZofgold

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    I retract my claims on Rhyperior. Dang, that poke has some support.

    For my thoughts on Sharpedo, the one issue that doesn't give it an auto-A rank is the lack of any offensively boosting move and enough bulk to actually grab one boost from that. While Sharpedo's STAB coverage is wonderful and spectacular, the fact that both Crunch and Waterfall are 80 power moves is a built underwhelming. Especially since bulky Pokemon like Cobalion or Suicune can take a hit without flinching (well, technically they have a 10% chance), and return some heavy damage.

    Also, I've been testing Froslass recently, but with all the Fire, Dark, and Iron coverage moves she's been quite easily dispatched. Any thoughts or comments on this?
  24. Ernesto

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    You completely missed my point about Bronzong. I never said anything about Crobat beating it, in fact I only mentioned Crobat when I was talking about Rhyperior. Of course Crobat is not gonna be KOing Bronzong anytime soon! However, it can Taunt it, Roost off Gyro Ball's damage until it runs out of PP if it's too reckless to simply switch out, and it can even reliably weaken it if it's running Super Fang... Not that I ever argued about that, but Crobat will come out on top barring critical hits. And for the record, the SR mention is completely pointless, since we're assuming Crobat's trying to stop Bronzong from setting it up in the first place! Crobat stops cold Lead Bronzong, which is funny since it's the most common lead currently
    About the Slowking discussion, well yea, Slowbro can take hits from DD Kingdra a bit better, but Slowking has Dragon Tail, and I meant to say it's a better all-around counter to any Kingdra variant. You know why? Because it heavily invests on its weaker defense to tank physical blows better, while also getting the jump on the few Special attackers it beats one on one with its natural bulk. Slowbro can't afford to do that, because most Special attackers have more ways of dealing with it than physical attackers do, that's why no one runs Specially Defensive Slowking either... If you're looking for a straight physical tank that packs a punch, then Choice Specs Bro is recommended (or CM if you're into Stall). If you want a physical tank that can deal with every Kingdra variant in just one set, while taking hits a bit less reliably, then you should opt for Slowking
  25. Super Mario Bro

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    I think everything that's currently S-Rank, except Heracross and Mew, should be moved to A-Rank.

    Snorlax, Crobat, Zapdos, Raikou, Kingdra, and Cofagrigus are all really good, but I don't know of anyone who thinks those Pokes are overpowered/ban worthy at this point in time.

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