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Gen 2 Tier Jumbling Proposals

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jorgen, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    So there's a couple of questionably-placed Pokemon in BL and OU, and I wanted to gauge how much consensus there would be in moving some or all of these critters:
    OU -> BL
    Alakazam
    Porygon2

    BL -> OU
    Vaporeon
    Dragonite

    Of the above, the only one I really feel like would be a controversial move is Dragonite to OU, but he's got healthy usage and certainly has OU power.

    I personally hate the idea of adding more Pokemon to an already-bloated BL tier, mostly since it reinforces the concept of old-gen BL as fundamentally different from new-gen BL. However, an overhaul of the concept of old-gen BL is not what I'm aiming for; that's far too ambitious an aim for this humble post. Given what we have, I feel that Zam and Pgon2 are definitely not "legitimate" OU threats, whereas Vaporeon and Dragonite definitely are.

    Any thoughts? Support? Dissent?
  2. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    I am not a GSC expert by any means, but I have noticed that Vappy and Dnite have been mentioned as top tier threats more often than Alakazam and Porygon. It may not be worth much, but I think you are correct in arguing that Dnite and Vappy should come to OU. I think Porygon2 is most likely BL, but I'm still not totally sure about Alakazam. I'm sure you're right about it, but in my mind its high SpA, Speed, and coverage shouldn't be completely disregarded. However, keep in mind that I am not even close to being an authority on Alakazam or the GSC metagame. Thanks Joregen for bring this up! It would be great to hear from some really good GSC battlers on this issue.
  3. gene

    gene GENE
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    i agree with moving zam and p2 down and vaporeon up. dragonite is pretty mediocre and hasn't been anything more than a rare pick for as long as i've played gsc.

    i also think tentacruel and kanga should be moved up. they're both major threats and were used a fair amount. if heracross is ou, these two should also be ou.
  4. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    @ Lockeness: Alakazam is just bad. A huge part of being good in GSC is providing defensive synergy, of which Alakazam offers none. At least Marowak offers an Electric immunity and Cloyster can scare out some Ground-types. Furthermore, its offensive impact is just so underwhelming considering the defense you're giving up to fit it on the team. Walls like Snorlax and Tyranitar are everywhere, and Alakazam has awful attacking coverage; its movepool is almost entirely support-based.

    I don't think Tenta or Kanga should be bumped up, though. They're both effective, but Tenta's usage has mostly evaporated since its heyday whereas Kanga is just a gimmick at this point. Heracross is used a lot more often than these two are, and is more consistently effective, too.
  5. Pocket

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    Yea, I support the tier changes, except for Dragonite moving up to OU. I haven't seen much of Dragonite at all lately, and a Pokemon that is dependent on a coin-flip Dynamic Punch is not really OU material when there are much better options available, imo.
  6. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Now I'm no GSC expert, but I support Vaporeon going up. I've seen Growth Vappy in action myself, and it's a pretty big threat. I've never seen an Alakazam/Porygon2 when I've played GSC, but I can't really comment on them. Can't comment on Dragonite either.

    My 2 cents.
  7. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Zam, Vap and Pgon2 are pretty straightforward changes to make (Pgon2 not so much but still). Others like Dnite are pretty conflictive, but Kanga is definitely BL though; I've only seen him once in since early 2011 or something and that happened because it was in my team... Regarding Dnite, I have to say that I have only seen Jorgen use it. Heracross is pertty much the same thing, but has some historical usage backing it up.

    Something to take into account is that one thing is historical usage and another different thing is current usage. For example, Tenta and Zard have both historical OU usage, but things like Quag and Muk are more common nowadays.

    Honestly, a lot of things are conflictive that I won't bother much, just go ahead with Vap/Zam/pgon2 and that's it. Or maybe make the same thing some of you guys did for ADV OU iirc, where GSC players could vote.
  8. waterwizard

    waterwizard

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    Why not move Espeon up, while you're at it? She's better and more common than Dragonite.
  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Consensus so far seems to be Vap up to OU and Zam + Pgon2 to BL. Dnite was a long shot, I figured it could draw OU consideration since it's similar enough as an attacker to established OUs Nidoking and Tyranitar, but it seems that nobody is having any of that.

    I'll see if I can put something more formal together (like what Crystal suggested) so that an actual vote can be taken and the results of said vote can rightfully be taken seriously and implemented.
  10. Borat

    Borat

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    I would vouch for all 4 changes.

    Vap is a straight forward change imo. It's probably a top 3-5 offensive threat.

    Zam is just as straight forward, been saying it for years. No top player would use zam other than to gimmick.

    Porygon2 is so good on paper, and wildly mediocre in practice. Inexplicable tbh. I think Muk puts in a stronger case to be OU than Pgon2.

    Dnite's move doesn't make a lot of sense if you compare it to the likes of Zapdos or Snorlax, but when you put it next to other "niche" players like Missy, Umbreon, Jolteon and even Blissey to a lesser extent, it makes a lot more sense. Dragonite's main difference is that the other "niche" pokes are the best of an unpopular role (except blissey; nothing blocks spin better than missy, nothing bps agi like jolt, and umbreon is umbreon), whereas dragonite is merely average but in a more popular role.
  11. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    If something is questionable, leave it. If its actually wrong, move it.

    The ou list is just a guideline anyway, if there is something questionable around the borderline (of borderline) it really doesnt matter what tier it is in. I would only change things in the case of something like Vaporeon, which is not on the borderline but is in the wrong tier. Zam too..
  12. Oglemi

    Oglemi <&Oglemi> i am a gay badger buddy :3
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    So there seems to be a strong consensus to move Vaporeon to OU and Alakazam to BL

    I'll make these changes if there are no further strong objections.
  13. Dice

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    Yah I agree with the changes. Rest Talk growth vappy is one of the best sweepers..
  14. Oglemi

    Oglemi <&Oglemi> i am a gay badger buddy :3
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    Vaporeon is now OU and Alakazam is now BL onsite.
  15. Glutexo

    Glutexo

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    I just noticed that Chansey is put in UU in the tiers on the site. This can't be correct. To me, it looks like someone just thought that Chansey could be viable in UU and put her there because of the possibility of getting articles, possibly during DP.

    This is not how GSC works. In GSC, all pokémon are put in the same tier as their fully evolved form, unless you can theorymon that it has a completely different niche in the same tier as its fully evolved form. The tiers are not designed around NFE of OUs in UU. Unless the tiers are completely redone, the old rules for tiering should be followed. Otherwise, the balance may be completely destroyed.

    I also think Chansey would be way too strong for UU, but this is not the main point.
  16. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Huh? Tbh, the Smogon UU tiers of all the old gens (barring RSE, I guess) aren't really "designed" for much of anything, since nobody really plays RBY or GSC UU. Those that have/had played were very few and generally made their own UU tiers independent of Smogon's.
  17. Borat

    Borat

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    While I do agree on the principle of the argument, GSCs are tiered differently from the newer tiers. UU shouldn't be the tier with the asterisk, NFE should be the tier with the asterisk -- that's to say, if a pokemon can make it in UU, let it.; let's NFE "tier" serve as the backup.

    That said, I don't feel like Chansey is overpowered for UU. UU is a lot different than GSC OU. Just saying.
  18. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    For what it's worth, I remember when I first joined this website, Chansey (and I think also Kadabra) were in BL for GSC.

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