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Discussion in 'OM Archive' started by PureQuestion, Feb 17, 2013.
Tier Shift is already set to become permanent. I look forward to running it. :)
Yeah, it's kind of weird but the top OU threats aren't that overly usable anymore. 110 or 115 for offenses/speeds is not really that great here.
I agree with bringing down the ubers threats, everything is so much more bulky.
For example Quagsire, Torterra (etc) can easily wall most Excadrill now and there is a natural increase in pokemon that can take an Excadrill attack. Similar situation with Kingdra (albeit I wouldn't propose we give Kingdra +5 in all stats, lol)
Sawsbuck doesn't seem overtly broken I enjoy using sap sipper with a band to smash some holes, Sawsbuck + Quagsire is a great pair in this meta they complement each other well. Sawsbuck has limited coverage and can be walled by some various threats (ie Gengar, Chandelure, Skarmory) but then.. if we deem him broken with +2 speed then fair enough.
It'll be great if we let the metagame settle before considering "bans" but it'd also be great if we permitted things like Excadrill, Kingdra + Politoed and Thundurus-I.
I love this metagame. However, I do agree with the notion that we should begin testing some Uber mons in the tier. Here are some that I have in mind:
I'd like this meta to go one of two directions:
1. Unban lower Ubers to increase number of usable weather abusers.
2. Ban the most OP weather abilities to increase number of viable non weather pokemon.
Pure, I love this meta. It's honestly the only thing I play besides Doubles now, which is saying something.
Personally, I don't see things like Blaziken, Excadrill or even Skymin being too much of an issue in TS. However, I would love to look at the Aldaran Proposal in this Metagame, as Rain isn't nearly as dominant as it is in Standard OU. The buffs to previously unused Chloro sweepers like Jumpluff and Sawsbuck, as well as Stoutland being buffed would make the game much more balanced. However, non-weather teams would tend to struggle even more so as they already have issues beating weather.
The one concern I have is this: Kabutops is already good, do we really want to see what it's like at full power?
Kabutops is so good, it is on my sun team as my spinner and my rocker.
If it got to be on a rain team? GG
When people start running Politoed and five Swift Swim mons, we'll see if you guys still think it's not OP. Buffing NU Chlorophyll sweepers doesn't change the inherent imbalances in the game mechanics.
Yea, Swift Swim Kabutops and Ludicolo would be rather overwhelming on Drizzle teams with their new stat boosts. Still, it could be an interesting experiment as long as we also bring back some Uber walls (Giratina-O and Lugia, as I suggested :D).
Hmmm, does anyone have any predictions for what they expect to top usage stats? I wouldn't be shocked to see Ninetales at #1. Anyone have a different opinion?
Well.. If drizzleswim was unbanned in OU, then Kabutops and Ludicolo wouldn't be NU. So giving them the +15 boosts wouldn't make sense
By the way, what ever happened to the idea of creating an alternate metagame where we would set the baseline stats of each Uber Poke at +0, OU Pokes at +5, UU Pokes at +10, etc? That would be fascinating and hilariously fun.
Probably going to happen, but I want to hold off on it; the metagame is too new to go splitting it in half already, I think.
Well, let's look at them with tier boosts.
That ought to give a pretty good idea of what swift swim would add. I suppose all these mons could be considered OU with drizzle+swim unbanned, and the likes of Kabutops and Gorebyss would still do just fine.
To be honest though, I prefer the thought of seeing this meta without chloro-rush. Sawsbuck, Exeggutor, and Stoutland certainly have other very viable abilities to use that don't speed creep the entire metagame.
Here's another idea: Tiershift UU? Yes, I understand now is not the time to implement it (have we even seen usage stats?) but if there is so much griping about the weather centralization of this meta (of which I am guilty), how about it gets an UU tier? In that environment the old OU mons would still be living, as well as non-weather threats that tried to bubble up but got pushed down by Ninetales and Abomasnow.
I would wait a couple of months before considering any change in this metagame.
Anyway, here's a couple of pokemon to watch out for...
Stunfisk: When you see this thing for the first time you'll laugh. After a few turns half of your team will be crippled by some status condition, most likely paralysis. Static is one of those abilities that no pokemon can use to its full potential in the standard metagame. Enter TS Stunfisk, everything changes. This thing is absurdly bulky with it 124/99/114 defenses, allowing to spread paralysis as well as Toxic and burn (from Scald) very easily.
It's also far from a sitting duck thanks to its good special movepool and 96 Sp.Atk.
Grass types counter it, but they're easily covered by team mates.
Stunfisk is one of the reasons you shouldn't have a team full of physical attackers.
Jynx: Take Darkrai and give it a better STAB and an ability that lets it recover 12% HP per turn in the rain as well as giving it a water immunity. That's what Jynx is. With 130 Sp.Atk and 110 speed she's on a whole new level, being able to outrun and destroy many OU and UU pokemon that gave her trouble. SubNP is her best set, but she can also run Specs, Scarf and even PerishTrapping. She should always be considered in a rain team.
Swanna: another great addition to rain teams. She's essentially Tornadus-T on steroids. Not only can she spam Life Orb Hurricanes in the rain with impunity, she gets a second powerful STAB to abuse and HydraRest. The last moveslot is mostly filler, though I find Substitute to be useful to avoid the incoming electric attacks. Definetly something to watch out for.
On the other hand, here are a couple of things that look good on paper, but still suck in practice...
Charizard: no amount of stat boosts can save the fat winged lizard from its two worst flaws: Stealth Rock and the existance of Politoed and Tyranitar. All Charizards I have seen so far did nothing but take 50% damage from SR, only to be forced out the next turn with the inevitable Politoed/Tyranitar switch in.
Shedinja: so, it no longer dies from any passive damage. It still dies in a single hit from anything it's weak to. It can't do anything either. Spinblock? It loses to every single spinner. Spread status? The other ghosts can do the same and actually survive to tell the tale. Swords Dance Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch? Good luck setting up. Easily the worst ghost type in the game.
An alternative would be to simply add Ubers 'mons directly into this metagame. -5 or -10 to each stat doesn't seem too unreasonable, though there's going to have to be some customization. (Extreme Killer Arceus and Specs/Scarf Kyogre could still kill practically everything but their normal Ubers checks with only -5 to their stats.)
As of having reached nearly the top of the ladder (28) I feel inclined to share my thoughts on the meta game.
Sun is somewhat OPed in general. While not unbeatable, I view it as by and large the best team archetype. The simple act of including a Ninetails on your team gives you access to the incredibly fast Sawsbuck. Sawsbuck moves at light speed in Sun, and hits very hard. Double Edge is a OHKO on nearly any Pokemon with no defense investment, and at worst a 2HKO on any unresisted Mon (Again, that I have encountered). Horn Leech allows Buck to heal up, and gives him stellar coverage. Once the Buck counters, those being Ghost/Poison, Steel, and opposing Sawsbuck have been removed Buck is free to tear apart the enemy team. Sawsbuck can even handle many Steel Types with Nature Power.
On the same note of Sun, I actually found Victreebel too under preform greatly. Unlike Buck, Victreebel requires a turn to set-up, and is absolutely useless unless Sun is up, while Buck still hits hard. I ended up dropping Victreebel, do any other Sun players feel the same way?
What I ended up dropping Victreebel for was Lanturn, a pokemon I highly recommend anyone try out. Lanturn can handle any weather inducer, giving you a massive advantage in the weather war. Politoed fears Volt Switch and Thunderbolt and can't damage Lanturn in any way besides Toxic. Tyranitar and Hippowdown fear Scald, both the damage and the burn. Finally, Lanturn can carry Hidden Power Fire too deal with Abomasnow, albit I've only seen one Sun team so far and was disappointed by it. Lanturn also carries Heal Bell, reverting Toxic off walls, and Burn and Paralyze off physical attackers and sweepers respectively. Finally, Lanturn has an interesting typing, and an immunity to Electric attacks, as well as solid defensive stats, allowing it to take a beating before it goes down.
Toxic is needed on every team. Certain Walls and Defensive cores are unbreakable barring Toxic. Cresselia, Cradily, Tangela, Chansey, and Alomomola all become much easier to take down once Toxic is applied. In a similar vein Heal Bell is incredibly helpful for any defensive or balanced team, Toxic-ed walls are nearly useless, and being able to clear that makes it much harder for the opponent to win.
While it is premature to say so, I feel that a ban on Sawsbuck may become needed.
I think the rain ability that has proven more useful so far than Swift Swim is Hydration. I've been experimenting with both Whiscash and Lapras in rain, and they are absurdly hard to beat once they get rolling. Lapras has been especially beefy, with 145/110/110 bulk. I've been running a set with 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD and Curse/Rest/Avalanche/Waterfall. This thing takes less than 50% from a +2 Gorebyss HP Grass, and has access to instant full recovery with Hydration+Rest. Get a Curse boost or two in and not only are you impossible to OHKO without a crit, you're also dealing whopping amounts of damage to anything in your path. The fact that no other weather sports an ability that matches Hydration still gives Rain some advantages, so it doesn't really miss its Swift Swimmers.
I also want to echo what user Electivire Rocks said: we should not even be THINKING about making changes to this meta until we've given it at least a couple of months to settle. Don't be so anxious to upgrade your brand new toy before you've even had a chance to play with it as is.
After peaking about to 1850+, I have some thoughts too. Sun is undoubtedly, at least for my battles, the most common playstyle, despite my last team being rain-based (DDCash is really, really cool!). Cresselia is better on paper than in practice in my opinion, as she was generally set up bait, but I can see it a trouble for sun teams (especially the RestTalk variant, as it can bypass Toxic).
Skarmory, on the other hand, is a Pokémon that I have not seen in a single battle, but it is very good in my experiences. It is capable of stopping physical-based Chlorophyll sweepers (non-Wild Charge Sawsbuck, Jumpluff, Leafeon...) and some others threats too, such as DD Kingdra, Primeape, and Tauros (the latter need rain support though). With acess to a reliable Recovery, two entry-hazards moves, phazing move to stop these boosting sweepers and Baton Passers, and a great typing, it can last for the entire match. Skarmory is a bit underrated in my view.
Weather is really dominant is Tier Shift, so I would like to see a weatherless metagame just to see what others Pokémon are capable to do, but... well, I can't see it by now. It's too early for a big game changing.
Nah, I'm quite opposed to doing that. I am, and have always been, much more keen on introducing a tier shift ubers at a later date.
I'm opposed to the idea of adding ubers as well.
A pokemon is more than the sum of its parts - you can bet that if Arceus had a -30 drop in every stat it would still single-handedly break the metagame thanks to Multitype and its massive movepool.
The same thing can be said about Kyogre.
Granted that other ubers like Reshiram and Lugia would be much more manageable even with a minimal stat drop, but you can see this is going: arbitrary stat thresholds within the same tier, which is something we don't want to see in this metagame.
The uber tier is way too heterogeneous and would only add uneeded chaos in this metagame.
I went to Shepherd College what does this mean?
Hetero.... other...? ech.
Google: Non-uniform in composition. In other words, ubers is a very mixed bag being a dumping ground for whatever is too strong for OU. (like NU apparently)
Poor Starmie. 115 speed used to be so cool.
The opposite of homogeneous. Yes, homo/hetero does not only apply to sexual preferences.
The Ubers tier doesn't consist solely of 'mons that were sent there for their awesome stats, most of them also have other things that make them broken, and you can't un-break all of them in one stroke with a mere stat reduction.