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Tier Shift Metagame (THIS IS BW)

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by PureQuestion, Feb 17, 2013.

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  1. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    Here's an idea for dealing with unwanted weather: Carry a secret abuser.

    Remember all those teams in OU that had Kingdra but no rain setter? Kingdra is an ok mon without rain, meaning it still has a lot to lend to the team in general situations, but when you came up against rain you had something extremely powerful to fight back with.

    [​IMG]
    70Hp/125Atk/115Def/75SpA/80SpD/90Spe
    My latest team was having trouble with rain and hazards, so I picked Kabutops as my spinner and gave him swift swim. His hurricane resist and ability to outspeed and threaten all abusers lends swords dance chances.
  2. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    A weather setter of your own (ie, using a weather move) that is not harmful to your team can be helpful too. If your team does not mind hail, run Hail on something. If your team does hate rain, run Sunny Day to screw rain teams over, for example.
  3. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Interesting idea here, although personally I prefer Ferrothorn to mess with Rain, Kabutops might just have what it takes to bring an offensive Rocker/Spinner role back into my Sun Team (was using Sandslash for a bit).
  4. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Dual weather teams work decently too.
    Many pokemon in the lower tiers work well in more than one type weather, such as Jynx (hail and rain), Mandibuzz (hail and sand), Kabutops (sand and rain) and Moltres (sun and rain).
  5. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Don't forget Gastrodon and Ferrothorn. While they are OU mons, they tend to disrupt all weathers pretty well.
  6. Spiffykins

    Spiffykins

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    So I've been playing around in TS a bit and I thought I'd share my observations about things I've tried. I haven't been rocking the ladder like a hurricane or anything, but regardless...

    Charizard seems kinda meh. Sure it packs a lot of power, but unless your team is designed around supporting it, you should expect to only be able to switch it in once. Wise Glasses or Leftovers are the only things I'd recommend running on it at the moment, or maybe Specs if you're feeling really adventurous. Wise Glasses is my preferred item. It bluffs the choice item, lets you Roost to beat protect/sub stalling, and still gives you a reasonable power boost.

    I think Ursaring has a lot of potential, especially for baton pass teams. 252HP/252+Atk with Quick Feet+Toxic Orb is just one smashpass away from being unstoppable, and the bulk can let you tank a moderate hit after the pass. (You may want to split the EV's between Speed and HP.) Guts is obviously also pretty scary, but Ursaring's speed falls just a bit short of outspeeding everything at +2. It's also pretty much impossible for the opponent to tell if you're running Guts or Quick Feet, which is a nice perk that can potentially result in misprediction.

    Cradily is definitely good, and is one of those pokemon that can function well in multiple weathers (sand and rain). It's bulky Rock types like Cradily that make me think long and hard about how best to utilize sand stall. I haven't settled on a good team build with Cradily yet, but I smell potential.

    With the massive surge of speed creeps and set up sweepers, Trick Room is far more potent, especially for bulky/stall teams. Worth building an entire team around? Probably not, but with the skewed buff to bulk over power, it's very likely to let you disrupt attempted sweeps. Given the popularity of Smashpass, Slowking/Slowbro are good options.
  7. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Here's a quality replay for you of Sun vs. Rain!

    It's a long match (45ish turns) but it shows off a lot of good things about this tier, including Cresselia, Lickilicky, weather wars, and how status and hazards can really fuck you over in a long match.

    There is a Jynx in there too, but it dies so very fast and right at the end too.

    The match ended 5-0 in my favor, but my opponent played, imho, very well the entire match, causing a lot of switches and keeping me from sweeping with Jumpluff, which I've even managed in a standard OU match recently.
  8. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    I just played an interesting match with BlankZero(I'm elighan, BTW) and I'm beginning to suspect Cresselia. It is just too centralizing and requires 2 or more counters. I carried Lum Durant and was still swept very easily. Hardly anything can OHKO Cresselia, and I think this is the first case of something that should be banned as not a support threat or a Offensive threat but a defensive one.
  9. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

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    Cresselia ban is definitely a possibility, but I think I'd like to wait for the metagame to have some more time to settle down before we start looking into messing with it even more; we're not even two weeks in, after all.
  10. WaterBomb

    WaterBomb because exploding camels wasn't enough
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Battle Server Moderator
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    We shouldn't even think about banning things until we've had at least two to three months to fully test everything out. There's probably some hidden gem that's still out there right now we haven't even thought of that would counter Cress perfectly.
  11. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    This meta may actually be more weather dominated than OU... LOL
    Speaking of OU, this tier has brought some power and speed creep... I wonder though, is that really due to the stat boosts, or the influx of weather users? I tried using some OU stars like Latios, only to be dissapointed by it not having 150SpA like Chandelure.

    I just looked at Sawk.
    [​IMG]
    90Hp/140Atk/90Def/45SpA/90SpD/100Spe
    Medium bulk, medium speed, and 140 Atk.

    It's called trick. Every team needs it now. Walrein? Trick. Cresselia? Trick. Blissey? Trick.
  12. sonicfan7895

    sonicfan7895

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    Just a quick question. Did the Durant have Hustle by any chance? I feel that if it is set up properly, Durant could easily sweep through Cresselia.

    252 Atk +1 Hustle Durant (+Atk) X-Scissor
    VS.
    4 HP/252 Def Levitate Cresselia (+Def): 94% - 112% (362 - 428 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 69% chance to OHKO.

    On the chance for critically hitting Cresselia, it is a guaranteed OHKO, no matter if there's already a Hone Claws boost in place.

    With Hone Claws in place and Hustle to back it up, there is a 69% (lol) chance to OHKO it.
  13. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Actually:

    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 432-510 (93.1 - 109.91%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO / guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Durant can actually set up against many treats, with a decent defense and forcing switches against many mons, Cresselia is pretty strong but I have found that Chansey beats her 1v1 if it carries Toxic, Trick Users, Fast Taunts, Encore mons (Such as Alakazam, Volbeat, Pikachu, etc...), etc...
  14. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    You take out cress by doing exactly what you do to any support or defensive Mon. You take away its toys.

    Taunt, Encore, Trick, Toxic.

    These all shut Cress down in a heartbeat.
  15. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    ^^BlankZero was using a Cress in a game we had (sadly didn't save logs) but the best way to deal with Cress is using a dedicated Stallbreaker that can cancel out it's options (such as Sub attackers that take Ice Beam well and HP Fire. Psyshock on another mon sorta) while able to deal with stuff. (this is not clear at all lol)
  16. TLCJR4LIFE

    TLCJR4LIFE

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    Trick is usually very predictable and I don't see why they would stay in against your obviously choiced mon.
  17. Infernis

    Infernis

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    If you think they'll switch out, use a different move. Both sides are free to make intelligent decisions. That said, Taunt and Encore work for basically all Cresselia sets.
  18. Spiffykins

    Spiffykins

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    Instead of considering bans, what if BL mons just got boosts in between the tiers? Makes the most sense to me, considering that's actually where they are. +3 for BL1, +7 for BL2?

    Also, here's a Baton Pass vs Hail battle. Any team/play critique would be dandy.

    The opponent at one point sent out their Shedinja against my Gorebyss, who'd already been passed +3 Def and Ingrain, allowing me to set up a sweep. If they had sent out their Galvantula or Rotom-Frost instead, it would have been a much closer battle. Because of this, I've switched Ursaring out for Piloswine. Piloswine's stats are decent enough to do some damage if I'm forced to Pass to it, it gives me an option for setting up Rocks as well as another priority attacker, and it's bulky enough to not have to rely on Focus Sash.
  19. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    Because they are too good for the tier just below them.

    We'll have to wait a little longer and see, but right now the OU mons that we were trying to bring the lower tier pokemon up to the level of might have been largely left in the dust. If you aren't using the three top abusers of your weather you're a chump, and if you aren't using weather at all you're a double chump. I'm trying my hardest, but as a double chump I can't keep up anymore. Now I could just pick up weather, but then I'll be a chump if I don't want my team to look 75% like all others with the same inducer. I've heard similar complaints in OU, but at least there I could run weatherless and still perform satisfactorily. Don't get me wrong, this meta is frick'n cool, but I actually feel like there are FEWER options at the moment, unless I'm missing some secret gems.
  20. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Just run Abomasnow and fuck up everyone's weather randomly?

    Yes weather is abundant, but there are plenty of teams without it too. There are also weird NU Only teams that get lolz as I steamroll them, but that's usually people just testing what works.
  21. tehy

    tehy

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    Eh, i don't know. I run my basic OU team and roflstomp most tier shift teams, but that's because a lot of people are hung up on gimmicks. I did play one really exceptional stall team with new, lesser-used pokes, so that was fun.

    I run a SpD hippo, but I still think I could take weather in this format. Don't forget that stuff like Storm Drain Cradily is also boosted, enough to be good in SS and in rain. As for sun, you can run boosted snorlax, and even carry Fire Punch. You don't need weather, it just got buffed like everything else.
  22. Knight of Cydonia

    Knight of Cydonia dance commander
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    I'm giving this meta a try, and I'm enjoying it a lot. Your options for teamslots are expanded dramatically and things like sun and hail get serious boosts. Put together a fun team of Offensive Spinner Armaldo, Sp def Tyranitar, Curse Regirock, Slowking, Amoongus and Choice Scarf Heatran. Done about 20 battles with it and so far it has dealt effectively with most threats (swift swim armaldo hurts rain pretty badly), this shows the breadth of the tier and what it makes possible ie only 2 OU pokes needed. Just need to get my deviation down a bit when I get a chance and see where it can get on the ladder. Anyway here is a fun battle showing how choice scarf heatran (obviously) handles sun for me. http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-14580922
    Sawsbuck switched in to a presumed stealth rock i hope. Heatran is excellent so far, especially with the apparent decrease in rain and you should definitely consider it for your team with all the sun teams speeding around.
  23. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    Wait... what?
    Ok, look at this and think about it:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Chlorophyll+Swords Dance
    115Atk/110Spe

    [​IMG]
    Hydration+Shell Smash
    99Atk/129SpA/67Spe

    [​IMG]
    Sand Rush
    115Atk/96Spe

    [​IMG]
    Swift Swim+Dragon Dance
    100Atk/100SpA/90Spe

    [​IMG]
    Sand Rush+Swords Dance
    135Atk/88Spe

    The last two are banned... do they really need to be? Perhaps 135x2 is too much, but Swift Swim Kingdra is VERY comparable to the others there. I think one of two things is wrong:
    1. Swift Swim is not broken in this meta, but rather it is on par with Chlorophyll and Sand Rush and out to be allowed testing for unbanning once the game settles.
    OR
    2. Chlorophyll and Sand Rush are just as broken as Swift Swim was in OU, and ought to receive testing for similar bans once the game settles.
  24. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

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    It's possible, I brought it up with Zarel a long time ago, way back during the Dev server days, and his comments at the time were something like "Let rain have OU."

    It'd definitely be interesting to have suspect tests for it, though, to be sure.
  25. Arkeis

    Arkeis (づ。◕‿‿◕。)づ (formerly aragornbird)
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    I finally got top the top of the ladder again, so here are my experiences:

    * Normal resists are essential. Most teams have one, but any ones that don't get easily swept by Stoutland, Tauros, or Sawsbuck.

    * Sap Sipper Miltank is a lot of fun and trolls Sun teams. Grass types will expect you to have one of the other abilities and try to set up on you or put you to sleep. 110 / 95 / 120 / 55 / 85 / 115 base stats makes Miltank bulky, fast, and still have decent power.

    * Amoonguss + Slowking/Alomamola + Heatran is like the best defensive core ever. Although it had trouble with a Victreebel that had both Weather Ball and HP Ground.

    * Of the OU Pokemon that were once popular, I haven't seen Terrakion, Alakazam, or Gengar even once and even the OU Dragons are a bit uncommon.

    And if we're gonna have Suspect tests, that means TS should be a permanent thing, which would be wonderful.
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