Tier Shift Metagame (THIS IS BW)

[Infernis]

I've found that you need two things to defeat most Sun teams.

1. Some hazards. (SR is enough.)
2. Ninjask.

What?

Sun sweepers are really, really fast. But in Tier Shift, there is nothing faster than Ninjask, whizzing by at a blistering base 185 speed. There are a lot of Pokemon that don't have an actual speed stat that high.
"But Infernis!", you might be exclaiming, "Chlorophyll doubles the speed of its users! Not even Ninjask can outrun that!"

Not at first. Normally, Ninjask uses his speed boosts to speed up an allied sweeper. But with this set, he takes advantage of the ability for himself in order to lay down some serious hurt.

Ninjask@Expert Belt
Stats: 76/105/60/65/65/185
EVs: 252 Atk/8 Def/248 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-X-Scissor
-Aerial Ace
-U-turn
-Protect

It's pretty straightforward. X-Scissor and Aerial Ace are the strongest STAB moves Ninjask has. U-turn lets him deal heavy damage and still get away if he can't quite KO the enemy sweeper. Protect lets him get a free speed boost, meaning that nothing in the entire game except max speed Jumpluff outruns him in the sun. (Floatzel can outrun him in the rain until two boosts are obtained.)

Max Speed Sawsbuck hits 700 speed in the sun. Jumpluff hits 766 as the fastest Chlorophyll user. (Neutral natures give 634 and 698 respectively.) Unfortunately, max speed Ninjask misses out on outrunning max speed Jumpluff by a mere two points after one turn of speed boost. If you manage to get more than one speed boost by the time Jumpluff shows up, you're golden.

EDIT: I lied, Whimsicott ends up with a base 126 speed, slightly higher than Jumpluff. But Ninjask can't outrun Jumpluff anyway.

Ninjask hits a staggering 406 speed with an Adamant nature and no investment and needs 248 speed EVs to outrun Jolly Sawsbuck in the sun.

Now, damage calcs. (Using the Honkalculator with manually edited base stats.) Listed in order of base speed:

Only the most defensive of Jumpluff survive Aerial Ace, which deals 63-75%. Offensive Jumpluff (the ones you can't outrun) are always OHKO'd after Stealth Rock damage.

252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck: 341-403 (94.98 - 112.25%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO. With no HP investment, always a KO. (Any hazard always guarantees it!)

X-Scissor 2HKOs all forms of Leafeon, ranging from dealing 60% to bulky sets to a whopping 76-91% for standard offensive sets. Max speed/attack Leafeon has an 18.75% chance to be OHKO'd.

Leavanny is always OHKO'd by Aerial Ace, not that anyone's using it. Well, a max HP/Defense set (trololo) only has a 75% chance to be OHKO'd. Watch out for that.

X-Scissor and usually U-Turn will slay offensive Quiver Dance Lilligant instantly, but weird maximum bulk sets are only narrowly 2HKO'd unless you have both SR and a layer of spikes down.

Shiftry will be instantly slain by X-Scissor and U-turn, but watch out! Max Attack Shiftry has an 18.75% chance to OHKO Ninjask with Sucker Punch. If you suspect that sort of Shiftry, don't risk Ninjask at anything other than full health.

Ninjask has a 56.25% chance to OHKO offensive Victreebel after Stealth Rock by using Aerial Ace, but otherwise is limited to always 2HKO'ing bulkier sets. Luckily, nobody wants to make a bulky sweeper out of 95/80/75 defenses.

I have no idea why anyone would use Maractus in this tier, but even very bulky sets are always OHKO'd by X-Scissor after stealth rock.

Eviolite Tangela is for suckers, but only takes 33.6-39.66% damage from X-Scissor. That's always a 3HKO, but I guess you can revenge kill it. (U-Turn can be used for repeated 28-34% damage if it's not healing and is somehow plowing through your team.)

X-Scissor and U-Turn both OHKO all forms of Exeggutor.

Aerial Ace will only 2HKO bulky Tropius, and SR is recommended to guarantee that. (Since bulky sets are often subseeders.) After SR damage and a substitute, Ninjask can easily finish it off. Offensive Growth sets are always OHKO'd after Stealth Rock.

Tank Tangrowth (252 HP/Def) will only take 41-49% damage from Ninjask's X-Scissor, but is always 2HKO'd by both that and U-Turn after SR damage. Offensive Tangrowth are 2HKO'd by both X-Scissor and U-turn, SR or no.

The bulkiest Vileplume are always 2HKO'd (51-59% damage) by Aerial Ace. SpA/Spe focused Vileplume sweepers are always OHKO'd after Stealth Rock.

X-Scissor has a 56.25% chance to OHKO offensive Bellossom, even before rocks. Bulky Bellossom will only be 2HKO'd, even with SR damage. (62-73% damage)

X-Scissor and Aerial Ace will both OHKO Sweeper Sunflora. If you're fighting someone with the gumption to run a max HP/Defense Sunflora in the sun, well, you only have a 25% chance to KO after Stealth Rock. (Though that's still a guaranteed KO if they have Solar Power.)

Ninjask will not do well against Charizard and Chandelure. SR damage lets him 2HKO Charizard or Chandelure after SR damage, but it's best to U-turn away to Quagsire or something. (Or your own Sawsbuck/other Sap Sipper, if you expect a Solarbeam.) If it's a Chlorophyll sweeper, Ninjask can beat it or wear it down. If it's a fire type taking advantage of the sun, run the fuck away.

EDIT: Forgot Venusaur and Whimsicott in there.

Venusaur: Aerial Ace has a 18.75% chance to OHKO offensive Venusaur before hazards. Get any kind of non-toxic-spike hazards down and it will surely fall. Luckily, the only common defensive variants are specially defensive subseed sets. Aerial Ace deals only 72-85% to that variety, but a combination of SR and a layer of spikes will cause even that to fall.

Whimsicott: Run! Well, maybe. If it's a bulky supporting prankster set, stun spore will kill Ninjask's one excellent stat. If you have a cleric to fix that up, X-Scissor and U-Turn both deal heavy damage, though not quite a KO. (64-76% for X-Scissor.) If you happen to have rocks and two layers of spikes down, a OHKO becomes possible. If it's an offensive chlorophyll set, which isn't entirely impossible for people who need to go first, things look a little better. Ninjask can OHKO with X-Scissor, even without hazards. Just make sure to get two boosts instead of one, first.

Asides from spikes, Ninjask appreciates Sap Sippers, since they'll fairly well counter Jumpluff and Whimsicott. (Or simply teammates that are immune to paralysis or sleep.)

 

[PureQuestion]

I don't know why you'd ever use Chlorophyll over Prankster on Whimsicott anyway, and I think being able to catch Sawsbuck is already really cool.

You're off, though, Ninjask only has base 175 speed, not 185.

Also I decided to start running a team with Tailwind Tornadus and Specs Moltres in the rain, and so far it's really cool:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-14674932

Team is a bit thrown together, probably needs serious work, but jesus christ, Moltres destroys everything.

 

[Infernis]

Yeah, not really sure where I was getting that. I'll re-EV that to be Jolly with less speed EVs so that it can still outrun Sawsbuck. Preliminary damage calcs still look solid, but he misses out on a few KOs without hazards down. So... get those rocks up.

 

[PureQuestion]

They're usually running LO anyway.

 

[BlankZero]

I'm surprised at the absolute lack of any sort of Spinners in this meta. I can routinely get up rocks and 3 layers of spikes, while spinning away things with Kabutops. After tha, I can bring in either Jumpluff and sleepsweep, or just bring in Choice Banded Kyub and wreck face. this usually means taking out the faster threats, or just the steel types, as Kyub is so bulky already.

 

[Nozzle]

I think that if ubers are going to be released verstatility will drop ALOT.

 

[Chaoswalker]

The Ubers tier doesn't consist solely of 'mons that were sent there for their awesome stats, most of them also have other things that make them broken, and you can't un-break all of them in one stroke with a mere stat reduction.

I made a copy paste with some editing:
The Never Used tier doesn't consist solely of 'mons that were sent there for their terrible stats, most of them also have other things that make them awful, and you can't un-suck all of them in one stroke with a mere stat increase.

And thus the phenomenon we are experiencing now.

Now, there have been a lot of metagames trying to get lesser used pokemon to see use; indeed, I'd wager a fairly significant percentage have this as either a stated or indirect goal. But they tend to do it with very specific fine tuning, careful editing of movepools and abilities.

Like Ubers, the NU tier is a special case, and should be treated as such. Either for simplicity's sake we ignore the tier entirely like Ubers, or for higher inclusion's sake we allow case specific stat boosts.

 

[pubby]

It's called trick. Every team needs it now. Walrein? Trick. Cresselia? Trick. Blissey? Trick.

I have to say, you're right.

Here's a silly gimmick team I tried with tons of trickers and immunities: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-14683031 Arkeis was actually #1 when I played him. Apologies for this silliness!

Anyways, has anyone tried out Togetic? It seems like it could be the best nasty plot baton passer in the metagame, or otherwise act as a tank and cleric.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

This metagame happens to be very hostile to the top spinners.

Starmie, who relies on its 115 base speed to get the job done, suddenly finds itself outrun by things like Scolipede, Jumpluff and Archeops, all which can swiftly OHKO it.

Tentacruel has to deal with Water Absorbers, Dry Skin Jynx, ground-type moves being everywhere (courtesy of sand teams and Clorophyll sweepers like Sawsbuck).

Forretress is a free switch-in for any Hurricane spammer, many of which can even OHKO non-specially defensive variants with just 1 layer of Spikes. It also fares poorly against the common sun teams.

Blastoise only fits in rain teams where a mono-water type with no real offensive presence isn't going to be on the top of the list of contenders anytime soon.

I made a copy paste with some editing:
The Never Used tier doesn't consist solely of 'mons that were sent there for their terrible stats, most of them also have other things that make them awful, and you can't un-suck all of them in one stroke with a mere stat increase.

And thus the phenomenon we are experiencing now.

Like Ubers, the NU tier is a special case, and should be treated as such. Either for simplicity's sake we ignore the tier entirely like Ubers, or for higher inclusion's sake we allow case specific stat boosts.

You can't compare NU to ubers.
I think none of us expected crap like Frafetch'd to shine in this metagame, nor I think anybody really gives a damn about it.
What we do care about is witnessing the effects of a static stat boost on pokemon that on paper might be OU material, but in practice fall just short of it. It's not about attempting to make everything equally viable, because we'd need to expand their movepools and/or give them better abilities/types, which is not what this mod is about.

 

[BlankZero]

It just makes other spinners more viable. Kabutops is a wonderful spinner in this tier.I could see bring down the new Ubers (Thundy-I, Exca, and Blaze) and seeing how they do, as Exca would be another great spinner.

 

[PureQuestion]

Like Ubers, the NU tier is a special case, and should be treated as such. Either for simplicity's sake we ignore the tier entirely like Ubers, or for higher inclusion's sake we allow case specific stat boosts.

I'm not going to start feeling broken up because Farfetch'd isn't viable.

 

[Chaoswalker]

I'm not going to start feeling broken up because Farfetch'd isn't viable.

I'm not talking about PU. I'm talking about how Sawsbuck and pals have pushed down most of the OU and UU pokemon.

 

[BlankZero]

I'm not talking about PU. I'm talking about how Sawsbuck and pals have pushed down most of the OU and UU pokemon.

That's because they are freaking awesome except for their base stats.

 

[Chaoswalker]

That's because they are freaking awesome except for their base stats.

Exactly my point. These pokemon either shouldn't be treated like the rest of NU, or they should be allowed to be used only with the ubers.

 

[Relados]

Exactly my point. These pokemon either shouldn't be treated like the rest of NU, or they should be allowed to be used only with the ubers.

Why should they be treated differently? They are not good enough to be in a higher tier in the regular metagame, so they deserve the same boosts the other Pokemon in their tier gets. The point of Tiershift is to see how good the lower tier Pokemon would be if their faults were remedied by boosts - if Sawsbuck or others were actually that much more powerful that it ruins battles, they would be in a higher tier normally.

I for one haven't run into any problems with Sawsbuck or many of the NeverUsed pokemon. In fact, I usually run into the most trouble fighting UU or some OU pokemon that I was not expecting.

 

[Infernis]

I'm surprised at the absolute lack of any sort of Spinners in this meta. I can routinely get up rocks and 3 layers of spikes, while spinning away things with Kabutops. After that, I can bring in either Jumpluff and sleepsweep, or just bring in Choice Banded Kyub and wreck face. this usually means taking out the faster threats, or just the steel types, as Kyub is so bulky already.

Torkoal makes a great one for Sun teams. (Or while fighting opposing sun teams.)

95/155/95 defenses make him hard to kill, and his ability to Rock, Spin, and Yawn all in one for phazing/sleep is unmatched, I believe. Lava Plume spreads burns and is actually fairly powerful in and out of sun, coming from a base 100 SpA stat.

 

[Chaoswalker]

I like how Sawsbuck has become the poster child, lol.

Why should they be treated differently? They are not good enough to be in a higher tier in the regular metagame, so they deserve the same boosts the other Pokemon in their tier gets. The point of Tiershift is to see how good the lower tier Pokemon would be if their faults were remedied by boosts - if Sawsbuck or others were actually that much more powerful that it ruins battles, they would be in a higher tier normally.

Those pokemon were NU for two reasons, not one.
1.There stats were juuuuuust low enough.
2.If you aren't playing OU you don't get much weather support.
Continuing to use Sawsbuck as the example, let's say it was used in regular OU. One would quickly find that it doesn't have the necessary power to compete. Let's move it down just ONE tier and see what happens. There's no Ninetales in UU. Well now it's REALLY useless. Then Sawsbuck drops again to RU, and finally falls into NU for having stats that were juuust a little low for OU.

 

[PureQuestion]

Yeah pretty much. This last period, Tornadus-I was simultaneously nearly OU and also nearly RU.

That said, I'm not very fond at all of having specific sub rules within tiers. Why? Because of that very same thing I was getting at in the OP. The problem with all those other mods, like Joimmons, Duskmod, NU v2, and so on (I love these mods, but this is a legit problem with them) is that in order to know the rules, you need to constantly go back and check the changelog. The entire point of Tier Shift is to have these incredibly simple rules that you can just know with minimal effort. It's easy to memorize that UU mons get +5, RU mons get +10, and NU mons get +15. I like that simplicity.

If we have to start implementing bans, and we may, that's fine; I'd rather ban things than make exceptions to the basic stat rules.

 

[pubby]

Banning drought + chlorophyll and sand stream + sand rush is likely the best action, if needed.

Sun still gets solar power, harvest, leaf guard, and of course sunny day+chlorophyll, which isn't bad at all.

 

[PureQuestion]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-14709224

More Moltres replays. It's really proving to be quite dangerous.

 

[ryan]

I don't see what banning every weather is going to do. I would liken Tier Shift to Ubers; a bunch of broken things together don't make a broken metagame.

Besides which, there are plenty of things in the metagame that aren't broken that are still incredible. Examples of these things include Golurk (who is just such a good mon to have on any given team), Jynx, etc.

I do, however, feel that unbanning certain Pokemon in Ubers could be a great thing. Darkrai would be just as big of an ass as ever if he were to be dropped down, but as a user above noted, Excadrill could be a great Poke to have in Tier Shift without being inherently broken. Perhaps dropping certain Ubers Pokes could be healthy for the metagame. You can even give them -5 to their base stats if that is deemed necessary, but I don't think it would be. Thundurus, Excadrill, maybe even Blaziken wouldn't be inherently broken in my honest opinion. Of course, as the creator of the metagame, you can handle this however you like. I just feel that it may be appropriate.

 

[PureQuestion]

Doing some votes (hell, maybe full suspect tests) to look into bans/drops is entirely possible. But I'm gonna hold off for at least a month or two.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Another thing to consider is that the initial stat boosts were based on the tier placement in the standard metagames.
What if threats like Jynx and Sawsbuck suddenly move up to RU? Jynx is actually quite close to RU and might move up, which would dramatically affect her performance in Tier Shift.
Likewise, what if something that is currently RU drops to NU and becomes a bigger threat in Tier Shift as a result?

Shouldn't we just accept that this metagame happens to be not very balanced and each month new threats emerge or become more manageable depending on how they move up/down in the standard tiers?
I think this is not entirely a bad things in my opinion since we get to see if a small push in stats can make or break a pokemon, which is what caught my interest in the first place.

 

[linton]

^^I personally thought that's what'd make this tier exciting and constantly fresh. If Jynx for examples moves up in the standard tiers than in Tier Shift something new gets the chance to shine. The months would balance out but it keeps this tier fresh and exciting.

I say no to bans unless something is obviously broken and notice within 2 weeks after a tier chance. Once the tiers change reset the bans. It keeps things interesting

 

[Captain]

I'd rather bring pokemon in general upto uber-level rather than take a few down.
Say:
for every tier below OU a pokemon gets +5
but, if a pokemon isn't uber tiered it gets an additional +10
so:
OU: +10
UU: +15
RU: +20
NU: +25
It really isn't that scary given the huge stats that ubers tend to have and I think the extra bulk would better balance the metagame. Also +10 may or may not be strong enough but it's a good starting point.