Tornadus (BW2 Revamp) [QC: 0/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by typon77, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,407
    Screw the Therian, Incarnate has all the swag.

    [​IMG]

    [OVERVIEW]

    • BW2 was not exactly kind to Tornadus
    • Tornadus Therian was introduced, which outclasses its Incarnate form most of the time due to higher speed and Regenerator negating hazard damage.
    • This also means that Tornadus is more easily checked now due to its checks and counters becoming more common.
    • Can be checked by more pokemon, such as Starmie, Scarf Tyranitar, Tornadus-T, and Dugtrio due to lower base speed.
    • However, its not all bad for the original Flying-Type Genie.
    • It hits significantly harder than Tornadus-T with the infamous STAB Hurricane.
    • Performs supportive roles better due to Prankster giving moves like Taunt, Rain Dance, and Tailwind +1 priority.
    • If you wish to use Tornadus to its full potential, you must utilize what it has over the Tornadus-Therian.


    [SET]
    name: All Out Attacker
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast / Superpower
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Tailwind / Taunt / Rain Dance
    item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Naive / Timid
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • While generally outclassed by its Therian form, one can still effectively use Tornadus if it is played to its strengths.
    • This includes a stronger STAB Hurricane and the ability Prankster.
    • Tornadus can hit much harder with its moves. When wielding Choice Specs, it can OHKO Terrakion 81% of the time with Hurricane, guaranteeing an OHKO with Stealth Rock. Tornadus-T has no chance without hazards.
    • 78% chance to 2HKO Specially Defensive Rotom-W with Focus Blast after SR, which means Tornadus has a decent chance of breaking through one of both forms best checks.
    • Can also OHKO Ferrothorn a third of the time with Focus Blast after SR, greatly helping its rain partners.
    • Hurricane is the move you will be using most of the time, as Tornadus's extra power is the main reason to use it.
    • The fighting moves can hit most pokemon that can tank a Hurricane hard. Focus Blast is boosted by Choice Specs and can hit neutral targets harder, but Superpower can be used if you want to hit Blissey and Chansey harder.
    • U-turn is useful on choice sets, as it lets Tornadus switch out of checks as they come in.
    • Can't spam U-turn like its other form due to the lack of Regenerator to negate Stealth Rock damage.
    • The last slot is mostly a filler spot. Tailwind can be used as a last ditch effort when sacrificing Tornadus to something faster, as it will hopefully let something else on your team revenge kill or sweep.
    • When holding a Life Orb, Tornadus can abuse Prankster Taunt to shut down walls and setup sweepers alike.
    • Rain Dance lets Tornadus change the weather in your favor if you lose the weather war, also gets priority due to Prankster.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • The EVs are fairly self-explanatory. Max Special Attack and Speed let it hit as hard as possible while still outspeeding base 110s, such as Latios, Latias, and Gengar.
    • A Timid Nature should be used on the Choice Specs set, as none of its moves are hurt from the loss in Attack.
    • Naive should only be used if you are running Superpower, as it lets you 2HKO Blissey most of the time with Stealth Rock.
    • You could invest 96 EVs into Attack to guarantee the 2HKO on 4/252 Blissey after Stealth Rock, but this generally is not worth taking that much power away from Hurricane.
    • Generally, Choice Specs is the recommended item, as it lets Tornadus hit much harder than Tornadus-T and obtain many notable OHKO's and 2HKO's.
    • However, Life Orb should only be used if you plan on utilizing the support moves that Tornadus has access to. Otherwise, Tornadus-T is a better Life Orb Attacker.
    • Expert Belt can be used to maintain ability to switch moves without recoil.
    • Hidden Power Ground to hit Jirachi, Heatran, and Magnezone super-effectively without the worry of missing on.
    • Sleep Talk is usable on either set, as it lets Tornadus beat Breloom no matter what. Hurricane and Focus Blast will both OHKO 100% of the time, and U-turn lets Tornadus switch to an appropriate counter.


    [SET]
    name: Acrobatics
    move 1: Acrobatics
    move 2: Superpower
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Tailwind / Bulk Up / U-turn
    item: Flying Gem
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • With 115 Attack, 111 Speed, and Flying STAB, Tornadus is the most deadly abuser of Acrobatics in the metagame.
    • Its higher attack stat combined with Prankster support moves lets it perform this role better than Tornadus-T in most cases.
    • Its speed is lower, but its still beyond acceptable for sweeping.
    • Unlike other Tornadus sets, this is not dependent on Rain.
    • Since Tornadus usually uses special sets, a powerful physical attack lets it break through would-be checks.
    • Flying Gem Acrobatics is the crux of this set. OHKO's Latios, Offensive Latias, and can even OHKO CB Scizor with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes. Deals over 50% to offensive Rotom-W.
    • Flying Gem should be preserved so the first Acrobatics isn't wasted on something that can take multiple hits and recover, wasting Tornadus's nuking potential.
    • Superpower is necessary to hit the Steel and Rock-types that like to switch in on Tornadus. Can usually KO Standard Ferrothorn after it takes a Flying Gem Acrobatics and Stealth Rock damage.
    • Prankster Taunt is one of the main reasons to use Tornadus. Taunt can halt opposing setup sweepers, as well as preventing defensive pokemon from recovering or paralyzing Tornadus.
    • Tailwind is the best option for the last slot, as it can help facilitate a sweep by Tornadus or a teammate.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • EVs are standard for physical sweepers.
    • A Naive or Hasty nature can be used over Jolly if a special coverage move is used.
    • Bulk Up can be used over Tailwind, as it gives Tornadus more power and resilience against revenge killing. However, Tornadus usually just wants to outright nuke things with Flying Gem Acrobatics, and a +1 Attack Boost still leaves Tornadus unable to OHKO some bulky pokemon.
    • U-turn lets Tornadus gain momentum by chipping away at checks and counters as they switch in, but Tornadus is generally a late game sweeper, and residual damage builds up quickly when you switch out constantly
    • Tornadus-T utilizes U-turn better.
    • Heat Wave can be used to hit certain steel types harder than any other moves, OHKOing Ferrothorn with a small amount of residual damage.

    [OTHER OPTIONS]

    • Not many other useful moves besides the ones already listed
    • Air Slash is an alternate STAB move that is not dependent on rain for accuracy and has a nifty 30% flinch chance, which is useful with Tornadus's high speed, but it is incredibly weak in comparison with Hurricane.
    • A Rain Dance support set with Damp Rock can work to support Swift Swim sweepers.
    • Torment can mess with Choice-item users.


    [CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

    • Specially Defensive Jirachi can tank anything Tornadus throws at it. Never 2HKO'd by even a Specs HP Ground and can simply recover with Wish and cripple it with Paralysis. Taunt is a pain for Jirachi, though.
    • Bronzong also works the same, but has no recovery and generally is not as effective in OU.
    • Rotom-W can tank any move and retaliate with a STAB Electric Move.
    • Not many true counters, but can be revenged easily.
    • Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, Tornadus-T, Scarf Thundurus-T, Starmie, and Scarf Tyranitar stand out as being able to outspeed and OHKO Tornadus.
    • Priority from Mamoswine and Scizor hurts.
  2. nyczxjay

    nyczxjay

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    638
    Tailwind should be the primary move in the Specs set's last slot IMO as a last ditch effort to help its team members sweep late game. Also makes Prankster not a useless ability on Tornadus-I. If you're not taking advantage of Prankster, there's really no point in using Tonadus-I over Tornadus-T. HP Ice is not needed because Specs Hurricane will hit hard enough anyway.

    I also think Focus Blast should be the primarily choice for the second moveslot over Superpower to take advantage of the Specs despite the shaky accuracy.

    I'm also going to suggest making the LO attacker a separate set from Specs because the two are played differently IMO. On the LO attacker set, Superpower would become the primary second moveslot choice and Taunt would be the primary fourth moveslot choice since it can act as a wall/stall-breaker. HP Ice should probably be slashed with U-turn because Tornadus-I really needs to be using a status move of some sort to take advantage of Prankster.
  3. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,407
    Yeah I guess that's true. I'll add in a warning to only use Tailwind on the Specs set if you're sure that the opponent is going to KO you.

    EDIT: Changed
  4. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,317
    typon77, you're missing OO (as you mentioned) and Checks and Counters

    Focus Blast > Superpower, imo. Superpower can come in handy against TTar on the Specs set, but it can't 2HKO Blissey / Chansey, so it's not worth it.

    Agreeing with nyczxjay that Tailwind should be slashed in the fourth slot instead of Sleep Talk. Rain Dance is also a good choice that may replace HP Ice, a seldomly used move.

    AC mention Expert Belt; HP Ground to hit Jirachi, Heatran, and Magnezone super-effectively without the worry of missing.

    Definitely add Acrobatics set; unlike Tornadus-T, it actually has good Attack to make for a deadly physical Acrobatics spammer.

    move 1: Acrobatics
    move 2: Superpower
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Tailwind / Bulk Up / U-turn
    item: Flying Gem
    nature: Jolly

    Tailwind is super-clutch, while a single Bulk Up can would make Tornadus almost unstoppable. In actual practice, I did not really find a chance to set up, though.

    AC mention Heat Wave and Naive Nature for this Acrobatics set to bust through Steel-types.

    I like your Overview - I think it's worth mentioning that it's lower base Speed adds more mons that checks it, namely Scarf Tar, Starmie, Tornadus-T, and even opposing Dugtrio.

    Also emphasize that lack of Regenerator makes Tornadus far more vulnerable to SR, making its LO set far more unwieldy.
  5. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,407
    Yeah, I know I'm missing the OO and Checks and Counters. That's why I said I'll mention stuff in OO :/

    I'll get to that as soon as i can.

    But I'm editing in those changes. I'll move Sleep Talk into the AC.
  6. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,407
    Okay I've finished this up. I made the changes and added the set that Pocket posted, and finished up the OO and Checks and Counters section. I think I'm ready for a QC check.
  7. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene MY GIANT SIXTY CHARACTER ALL-CAPS CUSTOM LOSER TITLE OF DOOM
    is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,033
    Hey. Not in OU's QC team, but based on experience, I think Substitute w/ Leftovers should at least get an AC mention in the All-Out Attacker set. Substitute is amazing at blocking out status moves and is great for punishing teams that rely on faster checks, such as Starmie or Scarf Terrakion, or priority to beat it. Yes, SR is not kind to Tornadus-I, but that's what you have teammates for.
  8. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,317
    I really dislike Substitute Tornadus - you want to take advantage of Incarnate's much more vicious Hurricane, and by using Lefties, you're denying Tornadus that sweet 50% power boost of Choice Specs - now it's Hurricane is hitting weaker than the surge of Tornadus-T, which is just sad.

    Sub doesn't prevent Tornadus from being screwed by the likes of Rotom-W and Jirachi, so it really doesn't help at all other than being gimmicky I guess. OO at best.
  9. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,147
    Might want to fix that.
  10. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,407
    Thanks for the suggestions. I'd rather not include Substitute. Though its cool with Prankster, it honestly doesn't seem very good. More residual damage to add with Life Orb, or lack of punishing power with Lefties. Also, thanks for catching that typo shrang.

    Edits being made. This is ready for QC checks.
  11. Dice

    Dice sonder

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,750
    The Tornadus-T vote is soon, so I'm not going to QC approve it until we see the results of the voting. I assume it's going to get the hammer, so you're going to have to revise this if so. Several mentions of Tornadus-T are included.
  12. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    U-turn is not that great on Specs OR Life Orb. Tornadus-I doesn't have regenerator so you are just wasting health. I'd rather see Rain Dance / Air Slash getting a double slash there. Air Slash is great outside of rain for Specs. U-turn isn't that great at all TBH, most checks can't take a massive Hurricane like that.
  13. Unowninator

    Unowninator

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    763
    Why not use Defiant for the Acrobatics set?
  14. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Messages:
    217
    Maybe because of Taunt? Defiant only helps when a stat is lowwered, whether triggered by ability or move. Otherwise, faster foes can outpace and, in turn, Taunt, set up or effect Tornadus to their own advantage.

    Ex 1. Prioity WoW from Sableye.
  15. Unowninator

    Unowninator

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    763
    Ah, that's a good reason. Thanks for the example.
  16. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Messages:
    217
    No prob.


    EDIT: Would also like to address that HP(Ice) is an option for handling Dragons.
  17. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,407
    HP Ice was originally a slash but it doesnt do anything that Specs Hurricane can't do.

    Also, U-turn is infinitely more useful than Air Slash. U-turn can provide offensive momentum and let Tornadus switch out of counters as they come in. The Tornadus+Dugtrio combo works at killing Jirachi solely because of U-turn. Air Slash is pretty weak compared to its other special moves. But I guess I could add Extra Support Move > U-turn to the Additional Comments. I'd like some input on this, though.
  18. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    My comment about U-turn / Air Slash is for Specs only. Air Slash seems counter intuitive until you realize how easy it is to beat down Sun Teams with it. Air slash comfortably 3HKOs SpDef Ninetales, and 2HKOs offensive ones. Air Slash gives you something to spam if leading with Politoed isn't permitted. U-turn I've never found useful at all on the Specs set.. Jirachi is the only thing you would use it against because nothing likes just getting beat down by Hurricane.
  19. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,205
    You should mention SubBU in at least OO or the AC of the physical set imo. Prankster Sub lets you scout for priority and take advantage of the switches a supposed Hurricane forces.

    The BU and U-turn explanations should be in SC not AC and OVERVIEW -> Overview, OTHER OPTIONS -> Other Options, and CHECKS AND COUNTERS -> Checks and Counters.

    Some good teammates should definitely be mentioned in the AC of each set. I mean, there's none in the entire analysis. For the first set, mention that Politoed support is mandatory. SDef Jirachi's the best counter, mention ways around it like Dugtrio and Landorus. Do the same for SDef Rotom-W and Bronzong. Mention that some good entry hazards (Spikes + SR) make it possible for Tornadus to get around Jirachi. Probably throw in something for Jirachi because it resists BoltBeam. A Starmie counter like Rotom-W is nice because Starmie is one of the few Pokemon that can outspeed Tornadus. For the second set, mention that the lack of reliance on rain is such a big selling point. Mention entry hazards again because physical Tornadus isn't /that/ powerful. Throw in Magnezone because Skarmory / Jirachi can be a big pain in the ass. You get the idea.

    Oh, and the Pokemon is Tornadus, not Tornadus-I.

    Cheers.
  20. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,407
    All mentions of Tornadus-I have been replaced with plain old Tornadus. And in regards to what Princess Bri said, I might as well just wait until the results of the suspect test and redo parts of the analysis, because Tornadus will once again be really, really good in OU, but without competition
  21. Frog

    Frog

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    94
    100 Atk EVs and life orb OHKOes blissey after 2 layers of spikes. You also only need 244 speed to beat lati twins so your spread for rain set should be
    100/160/244
    or
    12/252/244
    mixed only though you should dump the extra 12 EVs in defenses or HP, with maybe 4 to outrun bulky starmies which will hit pretty hard with scald.
  22. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,775
    With torn-t about to be banned (or so I heard, at least), I think tornadus will be common enough to justify max speed.

    Bearing this in mind, I think we need to take another look at the sets. There is no longer any need for tornadus to distinguish itself from Tornadus-t. You don't need to worry so much about taking advantage of prankster, or capitalising on its greater power. Before, I always thought that the therian forme did LO much better, thanks to regen, so I might be inclined to push LO/superpower up to the first slash.
  23. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,407
    Yeah now that Torn-T is banned i basically have to rewrite most of this. However, its exam week for me, so i'll get to it when i can.
  24. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed 90% of you people are whiny little children.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,523

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)