Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[blitzlefan]

My argument: Dialga is a check, and checks often involve a little bit of risk, but Dialga still does well at checking Arceus-Ghost, either wasting its boosts and making it suffer entry hazard damgage, or paralyzing it for the rest of the match. Both render Arceus-Ghost a lot easier to kill later on. Yes, that's true, but it also requires that they hit with Focus Blast twice in a row; there is a 49% chance of this happening. However, 39.414% of the 15.02644% of Arceus-Ghosts carry Focus Blast, so the chances of this successfully happening is approximately 3%. (This part isn't my argument but it might make us feel a bit better.) Also, within our final two slots, we can run a backup check to Arceus-Ghost if we still feel shaky about it, either a faster team member or a scarfer that can deal heavy damage.

A second idea: Darkrai. I don't really know why it's been dismissed, because Darkrai can put Arceus-Ghost to sleep and that's the end of it. We've established that SD Arceus-Ghost is underwhelming and less common, and ExtremeSpeed does not KO, so Darkrai can get off a Dark Void if needed. Also, unboosted Dark Pulse does tons of damage to Arceus-Ghost.

Lastly, we can just Toxic stall it to deal with Tentacruel or something lol.

 

[akuto]

U have a point, but if he was rolling focus fail than "assuming u went for para and he hit" ur still going to take a sizeable amount of damage twice might even KO and didnt someone say somewhere in the poll "who could give up the epic ghost fighting coverage" to counter argue my fire blast arceus? Lol and darkrai i could consider using him. Maybe something like scarf-trick darkvoid and dark pulse focus fail?

 

[MMII]

We seriously just need to use Darkrai to handle the Ghostceus weakness and call it a day. It has more offensive synergy with Latios than Mandibuzz (who has no offensive synergy with anybody because it's a wall) and is more reliable than Dialga for handling Ghostceus. (Dialga would a decent enough answer for certain teams but this one is already quite Ghostceus weak and Arceus is a pain for offensive teams in general) I honestly think we would be better off nitpicking over the best Darkrai set than inferior Ghostceus checks/counters. (inferior considering the team we are building ATM, not talking about in general)

 

[lousy918]

I haven't suggested Darkrai coz I thought someone mentioned it and will post the set. (which is also why I posted mandibuzz, just wanted to submit sth)

I think i might change mandibuzz though, I took a look at our team and found sth, this must get in idc even if mandibuzz isnt accepted

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Toxic
- Wish
- Protect
- Body Slam

Toxic allows us to cripple all ghostceus, and many other pokemon as well, such as Lugia and Latios. Wish allows to heal up and possibly support teammates too, while Protect allows us a turn to heal while stalling for more poison damage. Body Slam > T-Wave so we can cripple things immune to T-Wave in general on the switch, such as Excadrill and Thundurus-T and to prevent itself from being Taunt bait. Iron Head isn't listed coz its super weak, even Terrakion can survive it lol iirc.
Although Jirachi seems to kill momentum just to beat Ghostceus and not even beating physical ones, it fulfils several other important roles as well. Our team atm is extremely weak to Mewtwo, which can just come in after Latios kills sth with D Meteor, and proceed to CM. Revenge kilers to it consist only of scarfers, banded scizor (not exactly), gira-o, and ekiller due to usable bulk, elite speed stat and CM's SDef boost. Having two scarfers is even worse than losing momentum, or at best equal to it, due to inflexibility. scizor is rather niche, and the last two fail to OHKO and get OHKOed by +1 LO M2. this restricts us to falling on defending. Jirachi is one of the best, if not the best, counter to Mewtwo. Mewtwo should not be carrying Fire Blast unless it likes dying to T-tar in exchange for beating Jirachi and Shedinja, which have lower total usage than T-tar. Jirachi can then Toxic and keep healing up and stalling with Wish+Protect.
We also lack a LO Deoxys-A switch in.

252SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fire) in Sun vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Jirachi (+SpDef): 74% - 88% (300 - 356 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Since it lacks sash, it gets OHKOed by Body Slam. Ofc we could always sac sth and send in Terrakion, but he could switch.

Deoxys-D is also a really large problem. Although rare, if it carried a Mental Herb, with standard moveset and enough EVs to outspeed Scarfed Terrakion (which isn't a bad idea as it allows Deoxys-D to outspeed Kabutops as well, and prevent SD with Taunt), it would pose a really large problem, setting up on turn 1. Jirachi Body Slams through Taunt and makes it much less of a problem, as it is now slow.

not done

 

[akuto]

There are more checks out there like grasseus, and other arceus verients who can reliably run ghost moves

 

[lousy918]

list of dark type attacks arceus learns:

• Punishment
• Dark Pulse
• Payback
• Snarl

list of ghost type attacks arceus learns:

• Shadow Ball
• Shadow Claw
• Shadow Force

Fightceus, Darkceus and Ghostceus are the only ones who use any of these

 

[lousy918]

My argument: Dialga is a check, and checks often involve a little bit of risk, but Dialga still does well at checking Arceus-Ghost, either wasting its boosts and making it suffer entry hazard damgage, or paralyzing it for the rest of the match. Both render Arceus-Ghost a lot easier to kill later on. Yes, that's true, but it also requires that they hit with Focus Blast twice in a row; there is a 49% chance of this happening. However, 39.414% of the 15.02644% of Arceus-Ghosts carry Focus Blast, so the chances of this successfully happening is approximately 3%. (This part isn't my argument but it might make us feel a bit better.) Also, within our final two slots, we can run a backup check to Arceus-Ghost if we still feel shaky about it, either a faster team member or a scarfer that can deal heavy damage.

A second idea: Darkrai. I don't really know why it's been dismissed, because Darkrai can put Arceus-Ghost to sleep and that's the end of it. We've established that SD Arceus-Ghost is underwhelming and less common, and ExtremeSpeed does not KO, so Darkrai can get off a Dark Void if needed. Also, unboosted Dark Pulse does tons of damage to Arceus-Ghost.

Lastly, we can just Toxic stall it to deal with Tentacruel or something lol.

the lack of focus blast means other sets lol, or maybe noob players.

assuming the poppy scenario:

252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/200SpDef Dialga (Neutral): 75% - 89% (306 - 362 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Judgment vs 252HP/200SpDef Dialga (Neutral): 28% - 33% (114 - 135 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

So after sr, unless I get two shit dmg rolls, u die. Or fb misses. or para. excluding the first factor, however, I only stand a 70%*75%=52.5% chance

52SpAtk Dialga (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 4HP/0SpDef +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral): 36% - 43% (139 - 165 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

or I could simply continue CMing. fb is always gonna weaken dialga severely, while you're only doing one thing; paralysed or phaze. choose

even after para, ghostceus does not become much easier to kill, and involves the sacrifice of one more pokemon to take it down

 

[blitzlefan]

There are more checks out there like grasseus, and other arceus verients who can reliably run ghost moves

Arceus-Grass will never run a Ghost or Dark type move, as it has other things to cover, as a lot of Ubers resist Grass-type STAB. Therefore, our list of checks/counters for Ghost/Fighting coverage is rather limited, as they have perfect neutral coverage.

Also, @ lousy918, Paralysis makes Arceus-Ghost easier to kill as it can no longer stall out Latios' Draco Meteors with Recover. The combination of Psyshock + Draco Meteor I think is a guaranteed OHKO. (It might need a bit of residual damage, but that's provided by Deoxys-S.)

Also, why are we always assuming Arceus-Ghost is at +1/+1 for all of our calculations? With enough pressure, we won't give it the chance to set up, unless it comes in on a Choice-locked Terrakion Close Combat. Otherwise, we either smack it hard (and kill it with something else), or phaze it out. However, if we want a semi-hard counter, we can run Jirachi, or if we want to go more offensively, then Darkrai works well as a check. I'm open to both options, it's just that Dialga has a lot of utility in taking down Dragon-types that can hurt our team.

 

[jackm]

Well, Submissions are closed! Sorry I'm late again. I'm happy that we're getting somewhere with this discussion; our ballot consists of the following:

SD Ghostceus
Giratina-O
Darkrai
SD Rayquaza
Lustrous Orb Palkia
Defensive Dialga
Mandibuzz
SDef Jirachi

Good luck!

 

[blitzlefan]

Darkrai

We need something to beat Arceus-Ghost; this is it! :)
Provides reliable ability to put opponents to sleep in Dark Void, and though we don't have a specific set yet, Dark Void + Dark Pulse benefit our team considerably. A double status set would we interesting, and I'd go against a Nasty Plot set due to its frailty, but again, the specific set is up for grabs. Arceus-Ghost and Giratina-O don't check/counter Arceus-Ghost, which has been the general topic of discussion, and something we must move past before starting our core apparently. Neither do SD Rayquaza nor Lustrous Orb Palkia. Defensive Dialga admittedly takes too much damage from boosted Focus Blast (though lol I'll probably submit it for the nth time, as it has excellent defensive synergy with Latios), and Mandibuzz has no offensive presence at all. Specially Defensive Jirachi is a good pick, and has excellent utility, but Darkrai has more of an offensive presence, and matches better with our overall team style. So... my vote goes to Darkrai!

Edit: @ Haruno

Hide

Originally Posted by Fat Haruno
I just realized how flawed our way of building a team via voting proposed members is.

If you don't like the CCAT and how it's done, please just stop. Stop with the negativity and the criticism and the complete lack of contribution. It's incredibly annoying and honestly, I'm not sure why you're being such a jerk. Projects similar to this are/have been done in multiple tiers, and it's honestly not your place to criticize the procedure. If you're such a perfect team builder, why don't you just ignore this thread and be on your merry way? If not, why don't you contribute to the CCAT in a positive way and help us learn to team build? We'd appreciate it if you would take the time to do so. :)

 

[Haruno]

I just realized how flawed our way of building a team via voting proposed members is.

 

[puregenius]

Dialga

Don't get me wrong though, he's a shit check to ghostceus, but right now the team is absolutely raped by genesect
Adding darkrai would just worsen the problem
Relying on fire punch on deo s is just stupid

 

[Butterfly Aizen]

Mandibuzz

 

[IAmAnHero]

Dialga

Don't get me wrong though, he's a shit check to ghostceus, but right now the team is absolutely raped by genesect
Adding darkrai would just worsen the problem
Relying on fire punch on deo s is just stupid

This is exactly how I feel and I think we should use Dialga.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Dialga

 

[lousy918]

I liked mandibuzz and sableye alot during that research week. Despite first appearances they can be surprisingly useful. Count my vote towards mandibuzz. A vote for mandibuzz is a vote towards freedom!

Count my vote towards mandibuzz. A vote for mandibuzz is a vote towards freedom!

Count my vote towards mandibuzz.

Count my vote towards mandibuzz.

helping Haruno

 

[puregenius]

in an effort to stem stupid votes:

Well, Submissions are closed! Sorry I'm late again. I'm happy that we're getting somewhere with this discussion; our ballot consists of the following:

SD Ghostceus
largely inferior to cm ghostceus, but not a bad option considering we ultimately will need a spin blocker and he can tank gene which we are very weak against

Giratina-O
also not a bad option due similarly to ghostceus, except he adds priority which is invaluable for ho teams to pick off threats like latios and mewtwo
smaller opportunity cost

Darkrai
a good option, effectively stops bulky arceus that are a huge thorn in the side for most ho teams

SD Rayquaza
not very effective in the current meta
band would be a much better option and is excellent glue for ho teams

Lustrous Orb Palkia
a filler that really should be added in the 5th or 6th team slot

Defensive Dialga
stops gene and can phase around to build damage with hazards, which lets stuff sweep easier
a pretty good option

Mandibuzz
oh my gosh, i know mandibuzz, ive used mandibuzz, heck im the one trying to get him placed into the viability thread
his place is NOT in offensive teams, youre pretty much throwing offensive pressure on your own free will and to make matters worse youre using toxic over foul play

SDef Jirachi
a decent option, id really use u turn though especially since this is an offensive team

Good luck!

 

[MMII]

Darkrai

Sect is only starts to sort of become an issue once we add Darkrai as both Terrakion and Deoxys outspeed and threaten with Fire Punch/Close Combat. On top of that, Terrakion has no problems switching into U-Turns and only fears Iron Heads from Genesect, anyways. (not every one runs that)

 

[Bossness]

Dialga

 

[Sweep]

Giratina-O

Dialga was close to getting my vote but we can find a Genesect check later. I also had Darkrai originally but we are really weak to Genesect at the moment. Giratina gives us a spinblocker and allows us flexibility to choose whatever Arceus form we desire.

 

[blitzlefan]

Yeah, Darkrai works well there, but we're going to need some away around Choice Scarf Dragon-types as of the moment, especially physically-oriented ones, as Terrakion usually won't have the power to deal with them and Latios/Darkrai can't deal with scarfers very well. Also, trickroom said that max SpD Arceus-Steel could work for our team, as it can easily sponger a +1 Focus Blast, and the Dragon resist could help us with scarf Dragons.

 

[lousy918]

Yeah, Darkrai works well there, but we're going to need some away around Choice Scarf Dragon-types as of the moment, especially physically-oriented ones, as Terrakion usually won't have the power to deal with them and Latios/Darkrai can't deal with scarfers very well. Also, trickroom said that max SpD Arceus-Steel could work for our team, as it can easily sponger a +1 Focus Blast, and the Dragon resist could help us with scarf Dragons.

but you chose darkrai...? yeah I saw the steelceus too bad its too late

 

[blitzlefan]

A couple points:
I'm still iffy on my vote for Darkrai, and I do like Dialga a lot, but Darkrai can easily deal with CM Arceus-Ghost, though it's hard pressed to take any attacks of its own. Access to Dark Void and your arguments against Dialga earlier convinced me to vote for Darkrai lol.

I mostly agree with puregenius in most of his/her arguments, and to stress again, Mandibuzz loses way too much momentum, and we've already decided early on that our team style is OFFENSE.

Lastly, Genesect only threatens Latios as of the moment. Terrakion has a good chance to KO after Stealth Rock with Close Combat, and so does Deoxys-S with Fire Punch. The Bug weakness between Latios and Deoxys-S is NOT shared as the latter is just a suicide lead and with die to any attacks anyway (and FIRE PUNCH).

 

[lousy918]

jackm you didn't mention when votes end
my vote goes to Dialga
EDIT:However this leads us to being Mewtwo weak, unless we run support Darkceus, Physically Defensive Ho-Oh or Jirachi, all of which check Ghostceus, unless we decide to run Psychiceus, Scizor or Genesect.
EDIT2: changed vote

 

[jackm]

Oh, sorry: Votes end in 24 hours from this post. As for Butterfly Aizen, he/she isn't a troll; I saw them on the ladder a while ago fairly high up (if not the top) and while the ladder isn't usually reliable, a top spot generally means that the player is proficient.

Defensive Dialga