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Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by jackm, Feb 12, 2013.

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What Pokemon should we base our team around?

Poll closed Feb 17, 2013.
  1. Dual Screens Arceus

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Ludicolo

    6.7%
  3. Power Herb Kyurem-B

    8.3%
  4. Substitute Darkai

    1.7%
  5. Smash recipient Dialga

    18.3%
  6. CM Arceus-Dragon

    16.7%
  7. SubSeed Shaymin-S

    6.7%
  8. SD Arceus-Ground

    5.0%
  9. LO Kyurem-B

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. CM Lugia

    5.0%
  11. Latios

    3.3%
  12. BU Dialga

    10.0%
  13. CM Arceus-Fighting

    3.3%
  14. Scarf Rayquaza

    1.7%
  15. Scarf Salamence

    5.0%
  16. SubCM Giratina-O

    8.3%
  1. jackm

    jackm

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    Submissions are closed! Our next team member is Defensive Dialga. Congrats Blitzlefan! The OP will be updated. We are now onto the 5th member of our team. I'm super tired right now so I'm going to bed but let's get this discussion on the road. We're coming down the home stretch, guys, let's not lose this due to inactivity.
  2. akuto

    akuto

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    hm i see loops in dialga vs ghostceus. maybe we can have a mon to support him? or find a reliable steel type to resist steel now?
  3. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    All right, sweet!I suppose we have the basics of a team now?

    Our wall-breaker was chosen (Latios), our lead/hazard provider was chosen (Deoxys-S), our revenge killer was chosen (Terrakion), and our phazer/way around dragons was chosen (Dialga). We have all three of the S-tier Pokemon semi-checked, and no glaring weaknesses so far.

    So I'm assuming that now we just need the rest of the components of our offensive core. Latios + X + Y, for optimum power/coverage, hopefully with some form of priority just in case things get out of hand (probably ExtremeSpeed from some variant of Arceus). So... what threats haven't we covered yet?

    -we might want something that can beat Arceus-Ghost from an offensive standpoint
    -Blaziken might be a pain in the butt, as boosted LO Hi Jump Kick OHKOs Latios (our only resist so far) and Flare Blitz hurts
    -we might want a status absorber for Darkrai and stray Thunder Waves (Dialga has Toxic covered)
    -Deoxys-A will hurt as we have no priority and using Terrakion to beat it is risky and leaves us set-up bait
    -as mentioned before, Genesect is a threat
    -Lugia will piss us off if they have hazards on the field
    -Mewtwo is a threat with the standard set as it can hit the entire team (bar Deoxys-S) with a super-effective move, but Terrakion's X-Scissor 2HKOs (risky again though)

    correct me if I'm wrong though (hopefully I didn't make too many mistakes) as I'm pretty sleep-deprived lol

    And no way I'll let this die of inactivity, don't worry! I'll argue with myself if needed lol :P

    Edit: yeah akuto's right, Dialga can check Arceus-Ghost and force him out, preventing an outright sweep, but currently, we lack the means to take it down (except for through hazards)
  4. lousy918

    lousy918

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    jackm you haven't put dialga on first page

    we also happen to be weak to RP LO Groudon, who can set up on terrakion and OHKO the entire team.

    beartic could pose a problem if it sets up; fortunately it can't, but we don't know about later members.

    excadrill is also quite a big turd to deal with; it can set up on -2 latios and terrakion not using CC.

    GARCHOMP HAS SAND VEIL HUEHUEHUE

    we are so obv weak to SD Luke with bullet punch
  5. lousy918

    lousy918

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    fightceus was over a long time ago lol, take a look at jackm's post to see our progress
  6. jrp

    jrp wanker of the highest order

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    silly lousy not noticing a spambot
  7. Haruno

    Haruno

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    Gene poses a problem, all weather sweepers provide a problem. Blaziken steamrolls our whole team. So all in all we're forced to run giratina-o
  8. lousy918

    lousy918

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    lol, blaziken is all the argument we need, giratina is the only other one, everything else in ubers is OHKOed from +2 LO.
  9. jackm

    jackm

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    Yeah, Giratina-O is starting to sound like a better and better option. It gives us insurance of sorts against Excadrill (along with every other weather sweeper sans Kingdra), Blaziken, and Mewtwo, as well as spinblocking. I don't like it a whole lot when we could be using Arceus-Ghost, but it's looking pretty good.
  10. Haruno

    Haruno

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    Yawns. I propose

    Giratina-o @griseous orb
    Adamant nature
    160atk/252def/92spd
    -substitute
    -dragontail
    -earthquake
    -shadow sneak

    With the def evs given even a +2 LO 252atk+ shadow claw from ekiller fails to ohko and then gira can phaze in return. Sub is used to set up a dragon tail against mons that fear shadow sneak (lati twins, mewtwo etc) it also allows you to not fear a burn from Ho oh. The evs are self explanatory with just enough speed to speed creep opposing gira-o and base 90's that are minimally invested.

    Most importantly it can spinblock and counter blaziken which currently steamrolls our whole team since blaziken after a swords dance with sun up ohkos our current team with minimal difficulty. It also acts as a check to weather sweepers and its a more durable check than rayquaza.

    Overall gira-o is a must have for our team which again makes our team even more unoriginal.
  11. puregenius

    puregenius

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    lol its true, but thats what you get for basing a team around latios
  12. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    What's with the massive amount if speed creep on Giratina-O? Dragon Tail and Shadow Sneak ignore speed altogether, while Earthquake will rarely be used. I'll copy paste my old set when I'm off my phone. But thank you Haruno!
  13. jackm

    jackm

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    iirc, it lets you outspeed Tentacruel and put up a sub/Earthquake them before they can move.
  14. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Dialga is a very mediocre answer to Ghostceus as the best it can do is die and leave it with a parting Paralysis. Even with that accomplished, Ghostceus can still function as a slow tank and survive hits from things like CB Zekrom and attack back which means that we'll being losing a Pokemon and crippling another to deal with a very major and common threat that finds plenty of setup opportunities on our team. No offense to blitzle, but a shaky check like Dialga does little to resolve the issue which means that Ghostceus remains a threat to the team. (much more than any Genesect that already had few members it could bother as well as a solid check in the form of Terrakion and maybe even a another when we pick a spin blocker...) It's not really contributing much to the offensive bit, either, as it is way to slow and weak to clean teams or weaken walls for our sweepers. (well it can phaze at least but that's not exactly the kind of method a HO team tries to employ) I know I should have probably mentioned this before it got voted in but whatevs.


    Anyways, I thought we already discussed about Tina-O? Nothing has really changed for the team with the addition of Dialga so it remains a Pokemon with 0 synergy with our team and who's only appeal is to check weather abusers. I'll bring up SD Rayquaza, again, as it'll let us lure out and weaken/remove support Arceus forms which'll help out in the offensive synergy department. It also has Air Lock and Prio to deal with weather sweepers so that'll give us a check to them so we can move on. (It doesn't matter if his weakness to passive damage makes him a less sturdy response to these threats. Our goal as an Offensive team is to constantly have the opponent reacting to us, not the other way around. As long as we can make sure these threats don't 6-0 our team that is good enough.)

    252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 265-313 (59.68 - 70.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 118-140 (26.57 - 31.53%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    So V-Create plus Espeed does 86% minimum to a max HP Arceus form (I just took a random type so ignore the fact Electriceus is mediocre) which means that with hazards or just a bit more luck we will have effectively crippled or removed the bothersome Supportceus. (This applies to just about everything else which means that SD Ray only boosts mid-late game when it intends to clean or to mill down walls on a Stall team)
  15. Haruno

    Haruno

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    But melee mewtwo, we already decided on dialga and we already agreed on no more revoting. And blitzlefan was so insistent on it, people thought dialga could check ghostceus. So now we're forced to pick gira-o to stop blaziken and then we have to pick a 6th mon to stop ghostceus from steamrolling us.

    Also remember according to blitzle ghostceus is RARE because its ONLY seen on 15% of teams so its not worth getting a decent check/counter for. I mean sure it's rank 15 on usage but blitzle doesn't agree with getting a check to anything past rank 7 on usage. So mehs


    Check usage stats for once please. Also you're completely wrong if you think dragon tail and shadow sneak ignore speed. But lets digress since you can't seem to get anything without three or four posts and even then you still wouldn't understand.

    Earthquake is for escadrill/tenta/dialga which it will outspeed or in exca's case kill. Dragon tail and shadow sneak do not bypass speed. They lower your priority but if a Pokemon uses the same priority then speed begins to matter again. So against pokes like groudon who cannot harm gira-o effectively bar stone miss they'll be forced to phaze in which case we outspeed and phaze instead thus racking up hazard damage.
  16. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I'm not pushing for a revote, just pointing out an error that'll we'll have to be keep in mind when trying to build the rest of the team. I also fail to see what forces us to use Tina-O as Dialga has changed very little and so it remains a Pokemon without synergy with the rest of the team.
  17. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    @Haruno

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    I'm incredibly pissed off right now. Does me suggesting/defending Dialga on this team really merit so many personal attacks? Does saying that "you can't seem to get anything without three or four posts and even then you still wouldn't understand" really necessary? Ignore the awful grammar and the blatant rudeness; does a disagreement really justify basically calling me a moron? Fine, you can call me out for a submission that I later recognized, compared to Darkrai, wasn't as good in the role we're looking at. But also, look back and see that I voted for Darkrai, something other than Dialga. Go ahead and be a jerk to me, I don't care. Second, I said that we did need a check for Arceus-Ghost. How ignorant can you be? Furthermore, people voted for Dialga because they think it can work, not because I hypnotized them or anything; if what you voted for was better, then it would've been accepted onto the team rather than Dialga. For all you talk about "I just realized how flawed our way of building a team via voting proposed members is.", you somehow don't realize that intelligent players can vote for the set that they think best fits, and that I only had ONE vote, not nearly enough to change the outcome of the voting. If you had created a better argument (other than "I liked mandibuzz and sableye alot during that research week. Despite first appearances they can be surprisingly useful. Count my vote towards mandibuzz. A vote for mandibuzz is a vote towards freedom!", which is basically the ONLY thing you said), then obviously a better Pokemon more suitable to your liking than Dialga would've been chosen.

    Did you not understand this? I said that because it's not as common, we can use a CHECK instead of a COUNTER. Hey guess what, we don't have a COUNTER for Kyogre, or Arceus-Normal, or Groudon, or Palkia! Do you want to run Gastrodon/Skarmory/Ferrothorn too? Apparently we need hard counters for everything. You twisted my words and somehow arrived at the conclusion that "blitzle doesn't agree with getting a check to anything past rank 7 on usage". Honestly, what the heck?

    Dragon Tail and Shadow Sneak for the majority of the time, DO ignore speed in Ubers. First, there are barely any moves used in Ubers with +1 priority with the exception of Giratina-O, which renders your point moot. Are we afraid of Kabutops' Aqua Jet (32|Kabutops|4.41131%), or is it Cloyster / Mamoswine's Ice Shard (46|Cloyster|2.28455%) (60| Mamoswine|1.20033%), or perhaps Bullet Punch from Scizor (54|Scizor|1.83061%), or Mach Punch from Breloom (61|Breloom|1.12048%) or Vacuum Wave / Bullet Punch from Lucario (83|Lucario| 0.57639%)? I think I got my point across. Secondly, Pokemon using Dragon Tail and Roar rarely run more than 4 or 8 points of speed creep, preferring either maximum Atk/SpA, or maximum bulk, with the exception of SubShuffler Giratina-O and some variants of Lugia (Lugia will outspeed Giratina-O basically no matter what, so this again is a moot point). SubShuffler Giratina-O runs speed creep to beat out Tentacruel, as you said, NOT to outspeed Dialga or Groudon, which rarely run max speed except for on offensive sets NOT running Dragon Tail / Roar.

    tl;dr
    If you're going to respond, Haruno, please quadruple post or I might not understand. Also, come up with some real arguments and back them up with your own statistics instead of just attacking me personally. Seriously, bring some game, (not Choice Scarf Heart Swap Manaphy though please). Thanks for your consideration! :)
  18. puregenius

    puregenius

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    I actually do think we should revote
    We are running out of spaces on our team and at this rate a giant hole will be left
    Cm ghostceus would be a much better fit on the team as it spin blocks and still checks gene
    The thing is no one suggested it so we couldn't vote for it lol
  19. jackm

    jackm

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    Well, we can still get it on the team if need be. We do have two slots left. As for me, I honestly believe that Dialga was a good choice, as presumably mediocre as it is. Once we paralyze Arceus-Ghost, a powerful physical wallbreaker (which we can and should add) that can take a hit will suffice as a method of getting around it. If we don't use it then we're going to have serious problems with Genesect unless we run another counter, and it provides a bit of backbone to our otherwise frail team. Choosing any of the other checks to CM Arceus-Ghost would have been detrimental to our team in some way or another, and I view having a shaky check as just another detriment; the key thing to remember is, we can still repair a shaky check or augment its viability. As I mentioned earlier, a powerful physical wallbreaker can take a pretty large massive chunk out of Arceus-Ghost, and Terrakion can subsequently finish them off if necessary. SD Rayquaza (or CB if we're feeling like that's the right way to go, I dunno) can fill this role quite well. Hell, Extremekiller Arceus with Shadow Force deals irreparable damage to a paralyzed Ghostceus, contributes something else to the team, and can switch in on Judgement as many times as you need it to.
  20. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    Just something to contribute:
    Although it can semi-check Arceus-Ghost, that's not what Dialga's main role is.
    Dialga adds a bit of defense to our team, and helps us get around scarfed Dragons (for example, Palkia and Zekrom) that would otherwise run rampant.
    It also beats Giratina-O, Genesect, Forretress and Lugia (as they can't do anything to Dialga), Shaymin-S, etc.
  21. lousy918

    lousy918

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    the problem with using SDRay as a replacement for gira-o is that it does

    252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 186-220 (61.58 - 72.84%)

    meanwhile at +2 blaziken doesn't even need sun, hjk OHKOes our entire team and rayquaza. LO will bring down 2 or 3 pokemon after sr and espeed, but unfortunately u can't play around lefties that way; lefties will just go for the 6-0. we have two options:
    - Gira-O
    - REALLY STRONG PRIORITY
    unfortunately only priority left is what blitzlefan has mentioned, most of which are worse than gira-o and don't OHKO anyway, and that leaves LO EKiller

    252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 238-281 (78.8 - 93.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    unless u want CB.

    ofc we could just use Physically defensive Ho-Oh and Grasseus and solve like all our problems, but its too late, we don't want a revote, and u all will mention sr weakness.

    P.S. melee m2,

    252+ Atk Choice Band Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 331-391 (74.54 - 88.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Doesn't look like walling to me
  22. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    hmmm... well CB Arceus-Normal was mentioned in the other thread as underused and innovative to an extent? However, Blaziken's LO Hi Jump Kick is a guaranteed OHKO, but if we get Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes (which theoretically should be there), a LO ExtremeSpeed with Arceus-Normal has a guaranteed OHKO.


    Giratina-O and/or Arceus-Normal are looking pretty good, IMO.
    Expects waves of "this isn't innovative at all" from somebody"
  23. jackm

    jackm

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    I think what MM meant was that Arceus can take the hit and KO back, not that it walls.

    And yeah, Arceus-Normal is looking pretty decent right now. We should give it some serious consideration; it achieves our goal of proactivity while giving us a way to revenge kill some stuff that needs to be revenge killed.
  24. lousy918

    lousy918

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    no?

    +2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment (Ghost) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 370-436 (91.58 - 107.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    and he did mention dialga paralysing and ghostceus coming back later, so zekrom outspeeds and won't let ghostceus set up happily
  25. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    Zekrom doesn't particularly like Groudon (which is kind of an issue right now as you pointed out earlier), but I suppose Latios can check Groudon?

    What is the role of our next team member? Just curious. Is it just to check the aforementioned threats, or is there another one, like spinblocker required?

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