Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[jackm]

Oh shoot, misread that. I interpreted it as "Gira-O beats blaziken and ghostceus, which prevents us from needing to use Waterceus [to beat Blaziken]" What a fail, lol.

 

[blitzlefan]

Do we really need a spin-blocker though? I remember Princess Bri said something about the subject a couple pages back. Not constraining ourselves to a spin-blocker gives us a little bit more versatility in our teambuilding.

Also, I think that teams will be rather hard pressed to spin against us (just my opinion though), and forcing them to use Rapid Spin kills their momentum. However, Giratina-O and Arceus-Ghost have much merit on our team anyways, I'm just wondering if we can cover threats in another way. Giratina-O can beat most weather abusers though, but it lacks recovery / power to an extent. CM Arceus-Ghost is a good win condition, though I do like the idea of a CM Arceus-Water.

 

[jackm]

Well, it honestly seems like it wouldn't be really difficult to pull off a spin against our current team. While Forretress would have a bit of a tricky time (it can kindof take on Terrakion but it doesn't emerge with a lot of HP) Excadrill, Tentacruel, and Kabutops all have ample opportunity to do so with their desired weather in effect. And we can't change the weather, so we can't stop them that way.

There is one obvious problem that I can see coming up with CM Arceus-Water, beyond the investment dilemma I highlighted earlier. If we're going up against a sun team (i.e. against Groudon and Blaziken) there's a pretty awful wrench that gets thrown in the plans of Arceus's plans: Defensive Ho-Oh. Assuming that they can keep SR off the field, Arceus is going to get cockblocked and potentially phazed by Ho-Oh whenever it comes in, resulting in free hazard damage for them. In addition, nothing but Terrakion and maybe dialga likes a 1v1 matchup against Ho-Oh, so giving it more switchin opportunities seems like a bad idea. Giratina-O could help this a little, but it's still best to give Ho-Oh as few opportunities as possible, especially considering the fact that we can't change the weather.

 

[blitzlefan]

Yeah that's true, I forgot the Speed boost in their respective weathers (Excadrill and Kabutops)... ugh... weatherless is hard. I'm not used to thinking like this!

Tank Ho-oh can be a pain in the butt, but I think Latios' Psyshock is a guaranteed (or very close) 2HKO without residual damage or an OHKO with Stealth Rock. However, Brave Bird takes a HUGE chunk out of Latios. Terrakion has to revenge kill in fear of a burn from Sacred Fire and Dialga takes massive damage from Sun-boosted Sacred Fire, but can phaze it out if we do have Stealth Rock up.

This has me thinking about Rayquaza again... as it outspeeds Ho-oh naturally and murders it with Outrage. Air Lock is also a boon against weather-dependent sweepers and a set-up sweeper with priority would benefit greatly from Deoxys-S' hazards (unless we run some SD variant of Arceus). It stops Excadrill/Tentacruel/Kabutops with a powerful Earthquake as well, Forretress with Overheat or V-Create. Thoughts?

 

[akuto]

blitz i like quaza but yet we have 1 mon who can reliably take dragon hits nicely. most of our mons defense is mediocre ubers standards. but i agree quaza would be a really good addition to the team.


Arceus-w eve spread is to take any hit anyone can dish out and than give them a backlash. 188 def means blazekin cannot take it out wth any of it's "most common" moves EVEN AFTER +2. 68 sattk gives a 2HKO to standard groudon no boosts run the damage calcs. also +1 arceus-w V.S standard offensive LO ho-oh in the sun 44.3% - 52.6% 182 - 216 guaranteed OHKO after SR, Guaranteed 2HKO. Toxic stalling ho-oh in the sun "this is all ran with judgment" 33.7% - 40.5% 140 - 168 guaranteed 2HKO after SR. Although this set is walled by kyogre having only ice and water moves "recover is replaceable" i think Arceus-Water would be a great addition.

 

[jackm]

68+ SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment (Water) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon in sun: 192-228 (47.52 - 56.43%) -- 23.44% chance to 2HKO

208+ SpA Arceus-Water Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon in sun: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You seem to have skimmed my argument and missed some specifications. As I stated previously, 68+ SAtk investment fails to guarantee the KO on Standard Groudon. The calcs provided were sourced from the Honkalculator, run them yourself if you must. In addition, I specifically stated that, and I quote,

Defensive Ho-Oh. Assuming that they can keep SR off the field, Arceus is going to get cockblocked and potentially phazed by Ho-Oh whenever it comes in, resulting in free hazard damage for them.

Notice the bolded sections. Also, and I didn't originally bring up this argument but I have to point it out, dropping Recover is going to make it exceedingly hard to continually take hits from Blaze, and after one HJK on a predicted switchin, you can no longer take a +2 HJK.

 

[lousy918]

point is, what does this have over gira-o
you've alr lost the ability to switch into dracos
ray is revenged by terrakion
all other dragons are outsped by latios
and dialga can turd on many of them
dragceus is like the only advantage
and that waterceus gets recover

 

[MMII]

Another thing that needs to be pointed out about Waterceus is that it become essentially useless in the Sun matchup as its STAB is ruined by the permanent weather. (what was the verdict on the moveset tweaks/changes btw? I can't really tell sorry.)

 

[blitzlefan]

Ugh that's true. We should probably stay away from Fire / Water sweepers because opposing weather will shut them down. Also, I pretty sure the verdict on moveset tweaks was an okay, because jackm said "Well, I'm fine with ev and moveset tweaks.". Now I'm curious, what do you have in mind? I'm going to think about Arceus forms now.

blitzlefan thinks: types in BOLD are the ones I think can work

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Arceus-Bug: ugh... never used this? but it doesn't seems like it'll provide much offensive coverage that we need
Arceus-Dark: adds to Fighting weakness and idk it doesn't seem like it'll provide much
Arceus-Dragon:
Arceus-Electric: would add to the Ground weakness (but thankfully Ground-type coverage isn't too common outside of Groudon obviously), and we have Latios for that; murdered by Excadrill however, but it seems interesting with Bolt/Beam coverage
Arceus-Fighting: I like Arceus-Fighting, but role overlaps with Terrakion and makes Arceus-Ghost a huge problem, and is walled by many of the things Latios is (eg Lugia)
Arceus-Fire: crippled in weather (Rain)
Arceus-Flying: huge Stealth Rock weakness, but beats Fighting types?
Arceus-Ghost: spinblocker and beats Fighting types one on one, also excellent win condition
Arceus-Grass: bulky support Arceus that help check Kyogre and Arceus-Ghost to an extent
Arceus-Ground: coverage overlaps with Terrakion and Latios in general, but it could work?
Arceus-Ice: huge Stealth Rock weakness, and I don't see too much usage for this, and compiles Fighting weakness too
Arceus-Normal: compiles Fighting weakness again, but this thing is a boss; can't argue with the Extreme Killer
Arceus-Poison: awful coverage and we're not overly afraid of Toxic Spikes as of the moment; only Terrakion cares about being poisoned and he's not supposed to last too long anyway
Arceus-Psychic: helps check Mewtwo but makes us Genesect / Darkrai weak
Arceus-Rock: loses effectiveness outside of Sandstorm and complies Fighting weakness
Arceus-Steel: helps checks Dragons and checks Arceus-Ghost, but necessitates Giratina-O because of the massive Fighting weakness we'll have / Blaziken will hurt
Arceus-Water: crippled by weather (sun)

 

[jackm]

Yes, I repeat: EV and Moveset tweaks are ok. I would prefer if we didn't have to use them, but if they're necessary I'm all for. An example of a "tweak" in the sense of the word would be replacing X-Scissor with Sleep Talk on Terrakion, as it allows it to switch in on Darkrai without fear of being sleeped. An important thing to note is that the tweak should not completely change the identity of the set if we can help it. We voted that set in, and by tweaking it we change it to make it better, not replace it with a new one.

 

[blitzlefan]

I was thinking Sleep Talk > Toxic, as without X-Scissor, this team has no way around Mewtwo as of the moment. Sleep Talk helps us beat Darkrai, and as we're scarfed, being locked onto Toxic probably isn't the best.

Edit: But doesn't having Toxic make Sleep Talk somewhat unreliable? Because then there's a 33% chance of selecting Toxic on Darkrai, which is pretty useless. I'm fine either way I guess though.

 

[jackm]

X-Scissor only hits about 7% harder than Stone Edge against Mewtwo when you factor in STAB. Also, Toxic is really quite useful for smacking Arceus-Ghost, Groudon, and Giratina-O on the switch, as you're going to be switching out anyways.

 

[akuto]

if we ran sleep talk than why not have CB rack instead? We can use him as an ANTI-DARKRAI lead to immediately go for sleep talk and either OHKO or take a chunk out of darkrai forcing the switch in which we can predict.

Arceus-W is not completely useless in the sun "essentially" for it can do tons of damage to apposing fire types with judgment as it can do an average of 1/2 of standard LO ho-oh's hit points in the sun. Which is impressive due to only having a mere 68 eve in spattk. I agree in some situations he may not be as useful but he checks things that gira-o cannot. I'm just asking to give it some thought jackm you may be right that it is not a guaranteed 2HKO but we have to take into account that after some hazards it is guaranteed "mainly spikes" and also after the boost it is 2HKO and it can cause trouble for some things INCLUDING ho-oh for it can not 2hko it with any of it's moves giving it leeway to boost up and recover.

blitz i think grasceus takes out groudon too because who said that groudon has to run a fire type move? it's not stab and i rarely ever see it. I run fire moves on him and people switch into me with ferro.

 

[blitzlefan]

I don't particularly like Choice Band Terrakion, because it has a completely different role from Choice Scarf Terrakion. Choice Band Terrakion is a wall-breaker, which we already have, and Choice Scarf Terrakion is a revenge killer / late game sweeper, which we don't have. Also, switching to Choice Band means we can no longer check Dragons like Rayquaza and +1, which is bad.

Also, yeah, I don't know why, but when I ran Groudon, people would switch Ferrothorn into a Fire Punch lol. But it will keep us on our toes.

 

[jackm]

Because CB Terrakion can't revenge kill Arceus-Dark, DD Rayquaza, or speedy Extremekillers. (Hey, they exist) Plus, having a powerful revenge killer is going to be mighty important to our team, and none of the options that have come up have made much sense.

The main problem with Arceus-Water goes as follows: let's act under the assumption that we are going to use a spinblocker. Hazards are going to be pretty integral to the team's success, so I think that this is a fair assumption. Of the two spinblockers available to us (we're not using Sableye, as much as I think it would be cool) only one can be used alongside Arceus-Water, which is Giratina-O. Now, consider what you've posited that Arceus-Water provides for the team:

Check to Blaziken
Groudon counter
Offensive Ho-Oh check
Win condition
Kabutops check

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the list of beneficial attributes that Arceus-Water brings. Now consider the same list, but with the components that Giratina-O does as well as or better than Arceus-Water deleted.

Offensive Ho-Oh check
Win condition

Both of the remaining attributes could, in fact, be satisfied by a Physically Defensive Mono-Attacking RestTalk Giratina-O. Heck, we could use something *innovative* like CM Arceus-Rock as our last slot and satisfy both of the last two requirements while providing a proactive addition to the team. This addition would free up Giratina-O to run an orthodox set. The point I'm trying to make goes as follows: If we want to have a spinblocker (and I highlighted the necessity of said spinblocker in an earlier post) we can't use Arceus-Water without redundancy issues and a better way to spend its slot.

 

[akuto]

had a little test run with the team with gira-o/waceus http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers13468135 "my set of waceus and support gira-o" if anyone wants to check it out.

And i guess you're right blitz we should stick to scarf rack.

 

[blitzlefan]

I feel like we need another form of priority, or else we're crippled by Deoxys forms (Deoxys-A will hurt) and have no way around Choice Scarfs (Terrakion is pretty weak) and I think Giratina-O fills this slot, and provides us a spinblocker as well. Then, we can use whatever Arceus form we want to patch up the holes. We've established the benefits of Giratina-O again weather abusers (unless Rayquaza is still an option) and I think it would work. Also, a backup phazer never hurts (I run defensive Dialga and Giratina-O for hazards + two phazers). We still need a strong response to Dragons in case Dialga falls though, and a win condition.

 

[akuto]

I AGREE we have a big weakness to scarf zekrom which can kill most of our team with an outrage and the rest with an eq "so far" another to kingdra in the rain he completely wipes his but with our team after hes done on the toilet. i think if we run another scarfer whos fast and is reliable would solve the problem. And i noticed that magic coat is a big annoyance to our lead and other pokes.

 

[blitzlefan]

I AGREE we have a big weakness to scarf zekrom which can kill most of our team with an outrage and the rest with an eq "so far" another to kingdra in the rain he completely wipes his but with our team after hes done on the toilet. i think if we run another scarfer whos fast and is reliable would solve the problem. And i noticed that magic coat is a big annoyance to our lead and other pokes.

Ferrothorn? Role-stacking perhaps, but it deals with all the Dragons pretty much. Also, Zekrom doesn't get Earthquake (amazing if it did though). Scarf Dragons will get beaten 1 vs.1 against Kingdra. Unless we run Haban berry? Haban berry Palkia?

 

[akuto]

ferro would solve most of our problems but i guess we cannot use it because "it kills momentum" which it doesn't it checks some things offensively which others on our team can't.

we already discussed palkia? haban berry could work but it only has a 1 time use.

 

[jackm]

Ummm Zekrom doesn't get Earthquake.

As for Kingdra, it could potentially become a problem but considering its relative rarity I think that a decent check will do. Dialga's looking like it'll work. Magic Coat does indeed appear to be a problem w/ Deoxys-S, but considering its rarity (after Deoxys-S, the most common thing that even has it on the moveset list of the usage stats is Latios. Quite honestly, if your opponent is using Magic Coat on Latios they're probably incompetent) it seems like that should probably take a back seat to the various issues on hand. It's not like we can do anything to prevent it except use attackers or, like, Imprison them or something.



You know, if Imprison isn't blocked by Magic Coat. That would force Struggle.

[EDIT] completely off topic but nice new avatar Akuto

 

[blitzlefan]

This Arceus-Steel is from the Arceus: Deity Of Under Rated Sets thread and I think it complements this team rather well. It gives our team a win condition and a good check to Dragons. However, I think Substitute could be replaced with something like Thunderbolt/Thunder for some general coverage. This is the Arceus-form that I favor the most, and in my opinion, should be paired with one of the following, Giratina-O or Rayquaza.

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Arceus @ Iron Plate
Trait: Multitype
EV's: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Judgement
- Recover

I'm a big advocate for mono-attacking Steelceus. Obviously it gives your opponent free switches into mons like Kyogre, Palkia and Zekrom, but you gain the ability to setup on the majority of the other steel types in the tier. It also gives you a good switch-in to the powerful dragon attacks the tier holds. It works best if you base your team around it, so don't expect to do well with it if you can't find ways to take out Ho-Oh, Kyogre and the like.

This Giratina-O helps our team a lot and provides a spinblocker as well as a way around most weather abusers. However, it doesn't have all that much offensive presence but it still has great utility. Furthermore, this is probably as close as we can get to a Blaziken counter.

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Now that we have Deoxys-S, a spinblocker is mandatory. Nominating this:

Sonido (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 176 Atk / 248 Def / 84 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Shadow Sneak

The combination of Deoxys-S and Giratina-O (+Latios) will ensure that not a single Rapid Spinner will be able to pull off a successful rapid spin. This Giratina-O can act as a one-time check to ExtremeKiller Arceus as not even a Life Orb and Swords Dance boosted Shadow Claw KOs Giratina-O even after Stealth Rock damage. In return, Giratina-O's Dragon Tail does approximately 25% damage. Combined with Stealth Rock and Spikes, Arceus will be left at 25% next time it switches in(i.e 25% as it switches in + 25% from Dragon Tail + 25% next time it switches in). This Giratina-O can check (counter) all physically based weather dependant sweepers such as Excadrill, Kabutops, Qwilfish and unboosted Beartic. It can also check some other physical attackers such as Terrakion and Rock Polish Groudon. Shadow Sneak allows it to revenge kill weakened Latios, Latias, Mewtwo, OHKO Deoxys-A from full health(if it is not holding a Focus Sash) and limit Deoxys-S to one layer of hazard(if it does not switch out).

Shadow Sneak does around 25% to common frail offensive Pokemon. Combine that with Stealth Rock and Spikes (another 25% damage) and Extremekiller Arceus's(if we decide to use this) ExtremeSpeed, and we have all frail sweepers checked. The benefit of adding Extremekiller Arceus is that it prevens Shadow Force Arceus from sweeping our team[if, (and yes, that is a lot "if"s) we decide not to add Terrakion in the later stages]

Outrage is a suicidal move that is used when we desparately need to kill some frail offensive Pokemon(e.g Scarf Kyogre) -most of them are OHKOed after Stealth Rock and Spikes- or when we need to weaken Dialga/Groudon.

84 Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Tentacruel and Bulky Excadrill and hit them with Earthquake/Outrage(this OHKOs Tentacruel most of the time). 248 Defense EVs let it survive Arceus +2 Life Orb Shadow Claw while also adding some physical bulk, allowing to take on other physical attackers. The rest is poured into Attack and the Adamant nature gives it a bonus point in Attack.

This Rayquaza beats basically all the weather abusers, and provides a lot of firepower suitable for our team style. Also, Air Lock is huge, as we have a weatherless team. I like the powerful priority in ExtremeSpeed as well as its incredible offensive presence.

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Anyways, I really want to avoid adding Giratina-O to the team. It has really poor synergy with Latios and doesn't really have anything special with Terrak or Deo-S, either. (outside of support stuff) The main thing I feel that is pulling us to picking Tina over Ghostceus, despite the latter's better offensive synergy with Latios, is the fact that it checks so many weather sweepers that are keen on cleaning our helpless team. I thought about it some and I think I came up with a solution. Rayquaza has pretty good offensive synergy with Latios as it is difficult to switch into outside of Arceus (Yeah Lugia, Lando-T, and even Cresselia all fall to standard SD Ray with Rocks up. Screw V-Create.) which also happens to be one of the more common answers to Latios as well. (ignoring rain Ferro of course) Air Lock will let us pick Ghostceus as we don't need Tina to stop the dreaded weather cleaners netting us two solid partners with good synergy at one time.

With that said...

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Trait: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- V-create
- Swords Dance
- ExtremeSpeed


I opted for SD over the Mixed Attacker as I felt the ability to clean was more important than extra wall breaking when we already have Latios. If you guys have any cool minor set changes I'm open to edit them.

 

[lousy918]

DDRay beats them too? besides SDray can't OHKO kabutops
actually I feel like suggesting a cbray

Rayquaza @ Choice Band
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extremespeed
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- V-Create

gives us best chance of beating blaziken and most if not all weather sweepers. it is also difficult to switch into, and can clean up late game with extremespeed.
EDIT: and jolly kabutops outspeeds adamant rayquaza

 

[MMII]

Just pointing out that LO Ray has a 68.75% chance to OHKO Kabutops after Stealth Rock and Life Orb.

 

[trickroom]

EDIT: and jolly kabutops outspeeds adamant rayquaza

Rayquaza is base 95, max out at 289 with Adamant, Jolly Kabutops is 284 max, base 80. I don't know how that is true. Agree with Melee Mewtwo, Darkrai will be a nice addition to the team as Ghost Arceus is something every team has to be prepared for. Swords Dance Rayquaza beats all of the weather abusers, perfect for this team. Not nominating anything though but I doubt Dialga will be able to beat Ghost Arceus, unless of course your opponent is dumb enough to use Swords Dance ones, then you have a better chance.