Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

That's why I've been referring to Kricketune as a higher skill-index/higher risk higher reward ninjask. You NEED to set up situations for the Krick to get a Fell Stinger. It's highly reliant on having team support to work, ie a Twave user (like the togetic i run with it) but if you can consistently set up situations for it to get that first kill, it becomes stronger than Ninjask in a lot of situations.
I feel like D really isn't a stretch given the fact that it CAN work.
(Also, I'll get some replays to throw in tomorrow, I wrote this on a school-owned chromebook that I can't access showdown on.)



edit: i forgot to address the Pinsir/Primeape claims (although i did more or less address them but not directtly)
basically, the idea behind why you would use this over those two is
1) if you find it more fun like I do (because whether people like it or not, having fun IS a factor and if everyone only ran the best option pokemon would just inherently suck)
2) if you need a SUPER hard sweeper that you're willing to build a team around
3) you want to use something that's not as common so people don't know what it does and you can score some surprise KO's
tbh the reason i personally think this deserves to be D tier is the philosiphy that not being the best option doesn't mean it's unviable. Using Smash Bros. Melee as an example, Fox is clear cut the best character in the game according to most people, but nobody's going to say every other character is unviable because of that
Now see, your argument is really fundamentally flawed. You're trying to defend it but all the points that you make are basically the reasons that it's not ranked at all. Let me put it this way:
1.) Fun is not a way to determine viability, at all. Sure, it is much more fun to use gimmicks like Scarf Fell Stinger Kricketune, but you're never winning games unless you play against complete noobs, or you get lucky somewhere along the line, and that's the whole point of ranking stuff in the first place, if we didn't rank by how good something actually is, there would be no point to ranking them at all.
2.) The fact that you mention that you need to set it up in order to win does apply to basically every Pokémon out there, but it requires so much support to set up that it's not even worth the time or effort to set up, unless you're hard memeing the ladder and you want to fsr. No good or decent player will ever really fall for this, and I mean never.
3.) It's uncommon for a good reason: there's no real niche to get out of it. The only niche it COULD possibly ever try to actually pull off viably is outdone by other inherently also garbage Pokémon, sadly (Well, Masquerain isn't actually unviable, it's a perfectly viable webs setter but hopefully you get what I'm trying to get at). I'd rather use Masquerain for webs, Pinsir if I really want a more powerful Bug-type, or just really any other Bug-type in all honesty.

And you're not even mentioning a majority of the support needed to absolutely pull off such a high risk low reward gimmick. You absolutely need to kill any and all resists, any and all physically defensive Pokémon that are not weak to bug, a shitton of hazards, among other things. I'll stop there because there's absolutely 0 need to keep this going in all honesty, it has no real niche and that's the end of that.

To drive discussion away from that, some of the other discussion points:
Bronzor C to C+: Agree, won't touch too much on it cause everyone else has already said what needs to be said about it, great role compression for more defensive teams with its good bulk + typing and passivity making it perfect for those teams.
Tangela C- to C: Have not really seen a lot of Tangela in all honesty, so I have no opinion whatsoever on this.
Metang C- to C: Agree, this is basically the more offensive version of Bronzor which makes it better for more bulky offensive teams that can't afford to have a super passive mon.
Silvally D to UR: Disagree, SD + STAB Z-Explosion is definitely a niche, a stupidly small one, but it's an actual niche nevertheless which makes it stand out from other Normal-types that it competes with.
Poliwrath B- to B: Kinda iffy on this too, not because I haven't seen it like Tangela, but because I feel like it has merits to both move it up and not move it up. It definitely does have uses both with Water Absorb and Swift Swim, where Water Absorb does let it provide more balanced/bulky offense teams with a Water-immunity which could be crucial, while Swift Swim can be useful and helpful on rain when used to help either weaken opposing teams for its other Swift Swim abusers to take advantage of or for cleaning up for itself, and having access to moves like Vacuum Wave help it a bit too. However, it's kinda easy to wear down, especially in a meta where checks like Mesprit, Jynx, Archeops, and others are really common. Also it's fairly slow which does not help with how easy it can be to wear down.
Clefairy B to B+: Agree, Clefairy is one of a few small checks to some of the most prominent special wallbreakers in the tier like Alolan-Eggy and Drampa. This role compression alone is often enough for teams to consider. Its immunity to hazards in a meta where hazards are king is also very appealing, and it can still act as a soft check to Fighting-types if it really has to. Faces competition from other things but overall it's a fairly strong contender for B+ imo.
 
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Now see, your argument is really fundamentally flawed. You're trying to defend it but all the points that you make are basically the reasons that it's not ranked at all. Let me put it this way:
1.) Fun is not a way to determine viability, at all. Sure, it is much more fun to use gimmicks like Scarf Fell Stinger Kricketune, but you're never winning games unless you play against complete noobs, or you get lucky somewhere along the line, and that's the whole point of ranking stuff in the first place, if we didn't rank by how good something actually is, there would be no point to ranking them at all.
2.) The fact that you mention that you need to set it up in order to win does apply to basically every Pokémon out there, but it requires so much support to set up that it's not even worth the time or effort to set up, unless you're hard memeing the ladder and you want to fsr. No good or decent player will ever really fall for this, and I mean never.
3.) It's uncommon for a good reason: there's no real niche to get out of it. The only niche it COULD possibly ever try to actually pull off viably is outdone by other inherently also garbage Pokémon, sadly (Well, Masquerain isn't actually unviable, it's a perfectly viable webs setter but hopefully you get what I'm trying to get at). I'd rather use Masquerain for webs, Pinsir if I really want a more powerful Bug-type, or just really any other Bug-type in all honesty.

And you're not even mentioning a majority of the support needed to absolutely pull off such a high risk low reward gimmick. You absolutely need to kill any and all resists, any and all physically defensive Pokémon that are not weak to bug, a shitton of hazards, among other things. I'll stop there because there's absolutely 0 need to keep this going in all honesty, it has no real niche and that's the end of that.
But here's the thing: setting it up IS worth the time and effort (at least IMO). If it hits +6 (which isn't that unrealistic TBH, albeit i'm aware that it's more difficult than just throwing pinsir or ninjask at something) it gets OHKOs on, in a realistic setting, most of the format besides hard defensive walls that resist it and even at +3 it OHKOs anything that isn't super bulky.
Keep in mind the fact that I'm not saying that it's OP and everybody should run it, I just think it deserves to be D tier since I personally believe it fills the niche of being able to (fairly) consistently boost to at LEAST +3 and put out some good damage. I'm not claiming that you SHOULD run it over Pinsir or Ninjask because in an ideal situation where both players are playing perfectly, Pinsir and Ninjask are probably better a very solid majority of the time. I'm just saying that it's an option that's there.
 
But here's the thing: setting it up IS worth the time and effort (at least IMO). If it hits +6 (which isn't that unrealistic TBH, albeit i'm aware that it's more difficult than just throwing pinsir or ninjask at something) it gets OHKOs on, in a realistic setting, most of the format besides hard defensive walls that resist it and even at +3 it OHKOs anything that isn't super bulky.
Keep in mind the fact that I'm not saying that it's OP and everybody should run it, I just think it deserves to be D tier since I personally believe it fills the niche of being able to (fairly) consistently boost to at LEAST +3 and put out some good damage. I'm not claiming that you SHOULD run it over Pinsir or Ninjask because in an ideal situation where both players are playing perfectly, Pinsir and Ninjask are probably better a very solid majority of the time. I'm just saying that it's an option that's there.
Show us some replays man. I can say x mon is super good and it get's to +6 and everything dies but that would mean fuck all if i don't post replays where the mon in question actually does something. I feel this discussion has been going on too long than it should've. Why are we talking about Kricketune jesus...
 
Show us some replays man. I can say x mon is super good and it get's to +6 and everything dies but that would mean fuck all if i don't post replays where the mon in question actually does something. I feel this discussion has been going on too long than it should've. Why are we talking about Kricketune jesus...
Yeah I'll be throwing in some replays later today.
 
1) if you find it more fun like I do (because whether people like it or not, having fun IS a factor and if everyone only ran the best option pokemon would just inherently suck)
2) if you need a SUPER hard sweeper that you're willing to build a team around
3) you want to use something that's not as common so people don't know what it does and you can score some surprise KO's

tbh the reason i personally think this deserves to be D tier is the philosiphy that not being the best option doesn't mean it's unviable. Using Smash Bros. Melee as an example, Fox is clear cut the best character in the game according to most people, but nobody's going to say every other character is unviable because of that
i'm sure we can all appreciate the mindset of wanting to have fun when playing the game, as not a single player would be here without it, but there's one main flaw with your argument: being "fun to use" is by no means a factor towards a pokemon's overall effectiveness in a tier. it's more about how they perform under a competitive setting. there have been plenty of pokemon have been ranked s across different/past metagames despite being quite one-dimensional, and that's because of the influence that their effectiveness brings. weighing a pokemon based on their effectiveness is entirely what the purpose of this thread is for.

similarly, reasons 2 and 3 have absolutely nothing to do with the viability rankings, and although a case can be potentially made for 3, anti-meta pokemon are generally the result of a threat that actually have the means to accomplish something in a given match while being generally unprepared for, giving them an opportunity to shine vs common metagame trends. kricketune does not fit that criteria.

i don't think comparing this to melee fox supports your case either, as you're referring to a game where half of the cast is widely considered to be unviable by the competitive playerbase.
That's why I've been referring to Kricketune as a higher skill-index/higher risk higher reward ninjask. You NEED to set up situations for the Krick to get a Fell Stinger. It's highly reliant on having team support to work, ie a Twave user (like the togetic i run with it) but if you can consistently set up situations for it to get that first kill, it becomes stronger than Ninjask in a lot of situations.
I feel like D really isn't a stretch given the fact that it CAN work.
I'm not claiming that you SHOULD run it over Pinsir or Ninjask because in an ideal situation where both players are playing perfectly, Pinsir and Ninjask are probably better a very solid majority of the time. I'm just saying that it's an option that's there.
this is the underlying flaw of your post. you basically admit that kricketune would need an entire team supporting it in order to accomplish... anything. not only that, but you also go on and say that you wouldn't recommend using this over the clearly better options. this is nothing new for any pokemon that we don't deem worthy of our ranking's list, as it then just gets to the point that the support is not worth it nor really plausible without making the team itself objectively worse than any good team. as for the whole fell stinger gimmick, as much as i hate bringing up examples from other tiers, mega beedrill is probably the single most practical user of fell stinger in the game, but there's a reason you never see it used by any competitive player. no amount of replays is going to change that.

i appreciate your input in any case, as it not only shows that kricketune is indeed unviable, but it also shows why we should blacklist this pokemon entirely. it's really quite concerning if we've gotten to the point where we're literally on our second page of discussing a pokemon that has no place in this thread.
 

Megazard

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I think it would be better to end this discussion entirely. It is predicated on a misunderstanding of how the ranking system works, so what's the point in continuing once it's been explained? Kricketune is a for fun mon and there's nothing wrong with using it for fun, but that's simply not what the viability rankings are for. Competitively it isn't practical to use, therefore it will not be ranked. No need to blacklist or anything, I'll simply delete further posts on the topic unless Marshkip can pm me with a credible reason not to.
 

Silvally D -> UR: Agreed

I'm sorry, but as cool at this thing is, it just blows. Swords Dance with Z-Explosion is a very interesting concept that, in theory, can break teams like no other at +2. In practice, however, this thing isn't as strong as it's made out to be. It has a hard time standing out from the plethora of arguably better Normals in the tier, because its role as a Normal-Type wallbreaker and cleaner are outdone by just about everything the tier has to offer. Type:Null is far bulkier and can heal off status + recover with Rest. Ursaring and Zangoose can also absorb status and actually hit harder at +2 with Guts. Drampa's absurd coverage options means that it isn't walled by things like Regirock and Aggron, and there's only a small handful of decent special walls in the tier. Stoutland can sweep much more easily because of its incredible speed under sand. I just don't think there's any reason to use this mon.
+2 252 Atk Silvally Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 229-271 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 288-339 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 328-387 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 301-355 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

I didn't even mention that you have to either use up a Z Crystal or faint your mon to achieve the strength that other better Normals have.



Tangela C- -> C: Agreed

Tangela is one of the most obnoxious Pokemon to fight against if you're unprepared for it. Stellar physical bulk, coupled with recovery in Synthesis, Regenerator and Leech Seed, makes it a very solid blanket check versus physical threats and its natural typing can allow it to annoy Ground, Water and Electric types even further. Unlike most bulky pokes of its kind, Tangela isn't a momentum drain, because it has Sleep Powder under its belt to cripple switch-ins or setup pokes. All-in-all, it deserves a bump up.
 
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B- --> B
Mr. Mime has a much bigger niche in checking the ever present Drampa. It can come in on it as it is immune to both stabs. Forcing it out once could be all you need to pressure it with hazards and predicting its switch in. The scarf set is a decent revenge killer and also supports other pokemon with healing wish. I feel this warrants a rise as literally nothing wants to switch into drampa, and this is one of the few things that can.
 
Been wanting to make this nomination for a while now, but I held off until after PUPL, soo...

Jynx A+ > S


This thing is a monster. Decent Speed along with a very nice Special Attack stat already make it potent and mixed in with a fantastic offensive typing of Psychic + Ice, which give it near unresisted type coverage outside of the uncommon Steel-type, allows Jynx to be a meta-defining threat. Getting Psyshock from being a Psychic-type helps it break past many Special walls that are usually able to deal with Special Attackers, meaning that it's actually very hard to defensively check outside of the aforementioned Steel-type, and it also has access to Nasty Plot which allows it to very easily break teams once setup. It even has a useful ability in Dry Skin, allowing it to check Water-types too. The main draw for Jynx is one move though; Lovely Kiss. Sleep is a dumb mechanic, and a sleep move that's almost unblockable in the meta is even dumber because, unlike with Lilligant's Sleep Powder, there's almost no way to block Lovely Kiss. Jynx was S Rank in NU for the same reason and it actually has less to deal with in this tier because Lovely Kiss overall deals with would-be checks like Sucker Punch users and Steel-types are actually uncommon (bar Ferroseed which doesn't even resist it). What tips it over the edge, however, is Z moves. Getting free setup opportunity and a +1 in Speed is actually just dumb, because it's able to role compress two of its better sets, Nasty Plot and Choice Scarf, together and also have the freedom to switch move. I've actually had so many games where it's basically "I have to win this 50/50 with Primeape to not lose to this", because it finds it so easy to create setup opportunities, and generally without much or any team support. So yeah, move this thing up lol.
 
i was thinking about this already but also in light of the above nom i guess metang could see a rise to c. i havent tried it myself but it seems like it has enough of a niche to enter the midst of c rank, which is nothing transcendental anyway, also seeing how it got surprisingly used in pupl as well(and did good). pokemon such as lilli(hp fire might beat it but its close) and jynx are getting a lot of usage, and metang can prove to be handy vs those but also other mons depending on the set you're running(you could run toxic for bulkier stuff). steel typing with good bulk just proves to be really good vs a bunch of stuff, see bronzor / ferroseed but metang is not as setup fodder and doesnt lose to the likes of jynx. with bullet punch it also is a temporary answer to archeops, and pursuit is of course always valuable even if you get only chip damage off it.

oh also missed bronzor so im adding some words for it since that also was in discussion points. I think it could see a rise for similiar reasons as Metang. over metang it gains even more bulk and levitate which is super nice. both these things allow it to become an even more complete answer to offensive threats such archeops. Also rest on it is a viable option and makes it like twice more durable. It loses a bit of offensive capability and tools such as bullet punch and pursuit but toxic and psywave which deals ok-ish damage dont make it completely harmless. I think the tradeoff in the end is better so C+ seems appropriate.

i am on the fence about jynx, but i wouldnt mind it rising to s. its just that I think jynx is not as metagame defining as skuntank mesprit and archeops which you can find in 50%+ of teams and impact the meta more heavily. Jynx is indeed one if not the best setup sweeper in the tier regardless, it doesnt have many pokemon that can be an answer to it, and so can very well win games alone. But also in some games it can flop and disappoint because of various reasons, one of them being lk missing of course(ive seen as many games of jynx winning alone as jynx screwing up a game plan and dying because of missing lk) or your opponent being more prepared vs it(lum on stuff or priorities or fast choice scarfers or some niche mons such as metang itself). And jynx is more susceptible than others to any of these circumstances given its low bulk. also i wouldnt say z lk does both np and choice scarf set, since the scarf one does something completely different and has immediate speed. But again Jynx is really strong and has very few answers so i wouldnt mind it rising anyways.
 
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Simisage: D ---> Unranked

A big part of the reason this thing was even ranked at all was because it was a Grass type that could revenge kill Charizard with Choice Scarf + Rock Slide (most of the time, anyway). Well, guess what got banned a month ago? Really, when you compare it to other Grass types in the tier, it's just out-done in every possible category. As a special attacker, it's usurped by Lilligant, who can put foes to sleep and go for game with Quiver Dance. As a physical attacker, it's outclassed by Leafeon, who's stronger, only a bit slower, has Swords Dance, and can sweep using Chlorophyll. As a mixed attacker, it's outclassed by Shiftry, which has a dual STAB, better attacking stats, and very useful utility in Defog. And as a Choice attacker, it's outclassed by Alolan Exeggutor, who, while slower, has better bulk, a better defensive typing, MUCH better Special Attack, and STAB Draco Meteor and Leaf Storm. The ONLY thing it has over other Grass types is its speed tier, which really only helps against three things (Oricorio, Jynx and Magmortar). And even then...

252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oricorio-Ghost: 234-278 (80.4 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (75/70 physical defenses)
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Rock Slide vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 244-289 (79.4 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (75/67 physical defenses)

So, uh, yeah... Why is this ranked again?
 

allstarapology

formerly drumstick
Totally not bc someone mentioned this in a game I was watching and I’ve been wanting to do something for the viability rankings for some time now, but:


Nominating Eelektross from B to B+

Eelektross has been rising in popularity as of late, so I figured, ‘What better a time than now to submit a nomination for it?’ It sports a few positive qualities that are really good and relevant in the current meta, such as its solid bulk, especially in tandem with an Assault Vest. This thing is an absolute nuisance for more specially offensive teams and Pokemon like Abomasnow, Oricorio-G, Floatzel, Swanna, Mesprit, Haunter and others due to its ability to tank even their STABs and hit hard in response. Its bulk allows for it function as a pretty good pivot, able to bring in wallbreakers like Magmortar, Exeggutor-Alola and Ursaring, who has also been seeing a bit more usage as of late, as well as checks and counters to whatever Pokemon is in front of it and keep offensive pressure going with a slow Volt Switch. The one weakness it has isn’t a problem for it due to Levitate, (unless the opposing Pokemon has Mold Breaker and Earthquake) which makes it even better at taking things like the omnipresent Archeops on, and gives it a nice immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, both of which are fairly common in the meta.

Its coverage is also rather great, as it isn’t very well resisted and is coming off of 115 and 105 Attack and Special Attack stats, respectively. Some examples of this thing’s great coverage includes Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, Superpower, Knock Off and Aqua Tail, and as a result of it, it can pressure a slew of offensive Pokemon such as those previously mentioned, as well as many defensive Pokemon like Ferroseed, Granbull, Qwilfish, Gastrodon, Lanturn, Clefairy, Mesprit, Togetic, Regirock, Probopass, Weezing, and others.

It isn’t without its flaws, however. Its slowness is easy to take advantage of, it lacks reliable recovery, it loses longevity if it loses its Assault Vest, it doesn’t have the best physical bulk, and it's easy to wear down with Stealth Rock and status. But I feel as if a small promotion is in order due to its positives, and I highly recommend giving it a try.

(S/O to Taskr and Dibs the Dreamer for looking this over for me! Thank you both again!)
 
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Mr. Mime from -B to B

I started using it when I read it makes a decent drampa counter switching into it's stabs and really I love it's scarf set able to to trick a lot of run away sweepers(non Z-move) and just being able to fire off it's safe fairy stab that isn't seen anywhere else in the tier on the special side, just found it reliable psychic switch in the can do fast damage and has special bulk and isn't afraid of pursuit but from hard hitting dark types

It's main niche over mespirt is it's speed and and being a sick switch into drampa it's use over jynx is being able to come in more often and special bulk
 
Jynx --> S.
Agree. Jynx is easily one of the most threatening offensive pokemon in the tier. The set that pushes it to S-rank is the Z-Lovely Kiss set, which as people have mentioned is an incredibly dangerous sweeper due to the lack of good Scarf Pokemon above Jynx's speed tier. Jynx is almost impossible to play around defensively with it's fantastic dual STAB and Lovely Kiss to neutralize any pokemon that might take hits. What makes Jynx different than pokemon like Lilligant and Carracosta, in my opinion, is that it's already very very good without using a setup move (or sleep move). This is a pokemon with 115 Special Attack, 95 Speed, and two STAB moves that hit the majority of the tier for either neutral or super-effective damage. Jynx's usage is low right now because it is not a very splashable pokemon in the sense of providing checks to certain mons; however, high splashability is not a necessity to being S-rank and I'm sure many more people will start using this and see how destructive it is.

Carracosta --> S.
Disagree. Carracosta is a very good pokemon, but I don't think it's consistent enough to be S-rank. It is a powerful sweeper that will sweep some teams, but there are many common teams in the meta it struggles against. For example, its matchup vs Gastrodon and Ferroseed balances is subpar unless it is running HP Grass or HP Fire respectively, and running these coverage moves gives up other potentially crucial options. While Aqua Jet can get past some Scarf users, people have started to realize that pokemon like Scarf Mesprit, Scarf Kabutops, and Scarf Shiftry are reliable Scarf users if your team is not Lilligant weak. Even without these specific pokemon, it has decent counterplay from the likes of switching between Life Orb Recoil and Rocky Helmet from Qwilfish and Weezing (or even Skuntank Aftermath), and revenge killing it with Mach Punch. Specially based sets also have a high miss chance. Z-move and White Herb sets, which are arguably just as good, don't face this problem, but lack the power to kill Choice Scarf users with Aqua Jet. Finally, a lot of the pokemon Carracosta might normally set up on carry Toxic or some other move to annoy it. I think Carracosta has sufficient counterplay in this metagame not to be S-rank, and I don't think it has reached the level of reliability to put it up there.

Eelektross --> B+
. Agree. Eelektross got a lot of flack earlier on in the metagame for not having much specific resistances compared to the likes of Lanturn. But as shown in tournaments like PUPL and Not PU Open, you don't necessarily need resistances to function effectively. Now that the metagame has slowed down a bit, Eel has been a great anti-meta pokemon to annoy common cores of pokemon like Swanna, Archeops, Gastrodon, and Ferroseed are popping up more these days. I don't think it's on the level of the A- rank pokemon though, since it is fairly easy to wear down and its matchup vs most physical attackers is lacking, while it's still not as splashable as pokemon like Lanturn.

my own noms:

Articuno --> B.
This mon has an incredible matchup against a lot of common balance teams. If you can fit hazard removal on a team, which is not terribly difficult given how splashable Skuntank and Hitmonchan are, Articuno is going to be a threat. A lack of steel-types outside of Ferroseed, who is hit neutrally by Hurricane, and the ability to 1v1 a significant amount of metagame staples with Roost makes Articuno very hard to take down, and fairly difficult to switch into.

Skuntank --> A+.
Yeah I know, controversial nom. Anyway, Skuntank is a very easy pokemon to use and almost always can put in some degree of work, whether it's checking Mesprit, Defogging, or Sucker Punching a weakened offensive pokemon. That being said, while Skuntank can accomplish a lot of roles, it actually is fairly mediocre at most of them. Skunk seems to check more pokemon on paper than it actually does in practice, because stuff like Lilligant and Jynx can play around it with Sleep Powder or just nuke it, and even the mon it checks best can sometimes 2HKO it with Ice Beam or just U-turn out to a more favorable pokemon if Colbur. The physical Defog set invites common hazard setters like Regirock and Qwilfish back in for free, and Skunk's meh offenses can leave it missing out on a lot of KOs with both Sucker Punch and Pursuit. While Skuntank is a great pokemon and accomplishes a lot of things, it feels like more of a jack of all trades than a master, and I don't think it is on the level of Mesprit, Jynx, and Archeops as an S-rank pokemon.

Golurk --> B+.
Still a good SR setter for hyper offensive teams, but Mesprit gives it a lot of competition as a Stealth Rock setter that doubles as a fighting-resist. Additionally, a lot of common offensive pokemon can easily beat it down in this meta, and its plethora of common weaknesses does it no favors.

Absol --> A-.
Absol is criminally underrated. It is by far one of the best physical wallbreakers in the tier, with a nuclear Knock Off that almost nothing wants to switch into. The main problems with Absol lie with its highly competitive speed tier, as it gets on the wrong end of pokemon like Skuntank, Magmortar, Mesprit. That being said, Sucker Punch off of 130 atk is an absolute godsend vs. offense and makes up for it in so many ways. I guess you could move up Alola Rat as well, I prefer hitting personally, but it's more or less just as good.

Silvally-Ghost,
Poliwrath,
Toucannon
to C+. These pokemon are not as good as other threats in B-. No one uses Silvally-Ghost, and despite it being moderately annoying, it is fairly outclassed as a fighting resist and provides neither utility nor breaking ability. Toucannon is a cool wallbreaker, but Ursaring is better in pretty much every way, and even stuff like Zangoose and Archeops are simply better picks depending on what you want for your team. Poliwrath is the best pokemon I listed here, but there's few reasons to use it on a team over the more splashable Lanturn or Gastrodon. Not overly difficult to switch into, and meta trends with Mesprit, Archeops, and Swanna usage go against it (sorry Dibs).
 
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Twix

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Mr. Mime from B- to B


Mr. Mime @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam

Mr. Mime @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast
- Healing Wish / Trick


Yeah so I was discussing this nomination with a few people in the PU chat and generally, I think that B is a really solid spot for Mime in the current metagame. Currently, Mime is the best offensive counter/switch-in to Drampa, which has gained a lot of popularity over the past few weeks. Its coverage is also pretty great and I don't know if any Pokemon actually resist it. While it does face some competition in Jynx, I think there is some clear advantages it has over it. Firstly, it takes on Drampa, which I already acknowledged, and Pyroar based solely on its typing and ability on its own (and some cool SpD stat). Additionally, it takes on the everpresent Fighting-types such as Gurdurr and Hitmonchan well as it 4x resists their STABs and can hit them with a supereffective STAB of its own. Similarly, it can get chances to set up against a Primeape locked into Close Combat or even U-turn (2hkos 0.4% of the time) and be able to take on some of its teammates. Going through the top-ranked Pokemon in the tier, Mime can beat 3 A+ Pokemon (Gurdurr, Qwilfish, Jynx), 5-7 A Pokemon (Ferroseed at +2 with regular Focus Blast, Hitmonchan, Lanturn is setup fodder, Pyroar cannot use its main Normal-type STAB so Specs can be switched into, Raichu-Alola depending on who is boosted, Regirock which gets OHKOed at +2, and Weezing which gets OHKOed naturally), and 4-5 A- Pokemon (Drampa gets hardwalled, Gastrodon is setup fodder, Miltank gets dropped by +2 Focus Blast, Sableye can't do anything and gets hit by Gleam, and Type: Null which dies to a +2 AoP).

Clearly, I think Mr. Mime is pretty overlooked in the current metagame, most likely due to other Psychic-types such as Jynx and Mesprit as well was the prevalence of Skuntank and other Psychic-type checks. However, I feel that it carves a very nice niche for itself that would allow for it to move up a rank, especially in the current metagame. I have already pointed out some advantages it has over Jynx, so I'd like to note some things it has above Mesprit. First off, it has a much better Speed tier of 90 as opposed to 80. This allows it to outspeed +Spe Magmortar, Skuntank, Pinsir, and Qwilfish, while typing with +Spe Lilligant, Kangaskhan, and Zangoose (obviously Kangaskhan has priority to beat it but the other two are pretty big). It also does not have to risk typing Speed with +Spe Passimian or Stoutland. Although it does not have the bulk that Mesprit has, or the utility in Stealth Rock, it does have better Speed and better coverage while having access to Healing Wish as well. It also is not a free switch in for Dark-types such as Skuntank as it can just Focus Blast predicting them.

In terms of sets, I listed the two main ones in the beginning of the post. Currently, I think the NP Fightinium set is amazing simply because it allows Mime to take on a lot more threats in the current metagame. However, I feel that the classic Choice Scarf set still holds merit in the current metagame, especially due to fast Healing Wish.
 

C --> C+ C+ --> B-
With Guzzlord rising, sun has lost it's best check and that makes it better. These Pokemon are the face of sun and lack splashable hard walls now. Exeggutor breaks special walls such as AV hitmonchan with psyshock, and generally hits really hard, where as Victreebel is able to clean after walls have been weakened. The rise in drampa annoys these, but they can get around it with their secondary stabs.
soon(tm)



Stay D
Silvally's niche in SD + Z-Explosion looks bad when you do the calcs, as it's weaker than other normals, however it does support offensive normals by breaking normal resists. It breaks regi, carrcosta, ferroseed ect, allowing other normals to break such as stoutland and kanga.
+2 252 Atk Silvally Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 128-151 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally Explosion vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 160-189 (44 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Silvally Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Carracosta: 161-190 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally Explosion vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Carracosta: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Silvally Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 134-158 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 168-198 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Silvally Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 334-394 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Silvally Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Golem: 208-246 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Golem: 261-307 (71.7 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

soon(tm)



C+ --> C
I manetric may be stronger, but Zebstrika has way more utility than it, checking archeops, non aj costa after ss ect. It's speed tier really lets it down. I see little reason to have this above Zeb.
 
I agree with Skuntank to A+

Don't get me wrong, I love Skuntank. When I heard he was going to be in PU this gen I was overjoyed. I agree he provides incredible role compression. The specially attacking set is my favorite, the ability to fire off decently powerful Fire Blasts and Dark Pulses along with defogging hazards away is invaluable. However, he isn't a centralizing force.

To continue on the "jack of all trades, master of none" argument, let's compare him to the other two Pokemon in S. For one, Mesprit is arguably a better, "jack of all trades". Mesprit has debatably the best movepool in PU, giving it numerous sets that it can run (ex. Stealth Rock, Specs, Scarf, Calm Mind Z-Move) and is famous for being pretty much on every team right now. Archeops also has the ability to run multiple sets (ex. Offensive Taunt, Offensive SR, Lead) and its blazing speed and power is unmatched in the tier. However, Skuntank faces competition as an offensive defogger in Swanna, who trades Skuntank's better HP stat with higher speed and attacking stats, competition from Archeops as a taunt user, and it is lackluster as a purely offensive Pokemon. However, it still belongs in A+, due to still having a lot very unique, valuable niches (gotta love that Poison/Dark typing!)

I also agree with Jynx to S.

It also has multiple good sets it can run, but Z-Lovely Kiss is terrifying. Literally, the only reason it isn't a broken set is that Lovely Kiss can miss occasionally. I'd rather not reiterate, but yeah. Put this thing in S.
 
yo lol like i agree with the majority of noms here barring skuntank and poliwrath dropping

skuntank
: i definitely see one can come from with this. at one hand, it has gotten pretty adapted to, to the point where it's honestly a shaky check to just about many of the main threats that it tries to check. musharna can win with boosted twinkle tackle after rocks, jynx is faster and can sleep it, lilligant can do the same and/or beat it with boosted z-hyper beam, most offensive mesprit can beat it, kadabra can run counter to beat physical sets, the list goes on.

but when discussing to drop an s-rank mon that has been prepared for, i think it's important to ask ourselves "even with all of that preparation involved against it, is it still able to adapt well in the metagame?" my answer to that in skuntank's case, is yes. there's a reason for it competing with mesprit so much in tiers of pupl usage as well as win rate (heck, on average it had even higher win rates than mesprit), which only reinforces the fact that it's still doing well in spite of all of its preparation involved.

let's talk about its sets though: between them all, it still can circumstantially check the things it can check and it still cements its role in the tier as among the most splashable of pokemon. it doesn't "compete" with swanna as a defogger, it's hands down the single best defogger in the tier. stealth rockers such as non-clear body regirock, piloswine, ferroseed and golem are heavily pressured to switch in on special sets as they all get damaged severely by either a coverage move or another hit after an acid spray (darkinum z is so cool imo since it actually ohkos pretty all of them after an acid spray drop), and it puts immense pressure on other phys def hazard setters like qwilfish and weezing. physical sets are fine too, as things like defiant primeape are less safe switch ins while still securing the role of a strong priority and a blanket trapper to lots of problematic psychics and ghosts. while swanna can also pressure most hazard setters, it doesn't have the perk of being able to absorb tspikes (which is huge and in itself lets it act passively as a hazard control to probably the most dangerous type of hazard) and is pressured itself quite a bit by stealth rock.

in terms of offensive presence, yea it's not that strong initially, but the aforementioned special set still has the ability to lure a lot of phys def switch ins and breaking through with how much they're pressured by acid spray-boosted moves. cb, which is rather on the rise right now, helps to secure its match up against bulkier ghost / psychic types while also doing nice chip in general to bulky stuff and faster mons with a stronger pjab (which is nice for punishing fighting-type switch ins) / crunch and stronger sucker punches

this might feel a little rushed of an explanation, but ultimately, this is why i'd still lean towards skuntank staying in s rank. it's certainly not unbeatable nor uncheckable in the slightest, but its splashability, reliability, versatility, and ultimately its success in high-level play to this day suggests that it is still able to hold the tier together in a way that's expected of a s-rank mon. it's one of those pokemon that you can honestly carelessly slap on almost any team and still make it better (even if marginally so).

poliwrath
: i feel like this pokemon has far too many relevant things going for it to even be compared to anything in c+. not only does it check a lot of rather solid pokemon like carracosta, lycanroc, kabutops, pinsir, and aggron, but forcing teams to not rely on ferroseed as its bulky water check and being a bulky water that doesn't let drampa, abomosnow, or eggy-a come in for free honestly matters so much for the types of teams it can fit on. offensive sets are still fine too, and in fact, i used to mess around with belly drum on the subpunch set with moderate success to lure all of mush, qwil, and weezing while just generally functioning as an unexpected but scary breaker. special sets with fighting z have been a pretty interesting thing to play around with too, since ohkoing ferroseed, more reliably beating audino / null, and doing enough of a solid check to most switch-ins to where they aren't really safe makes it a really nifty option a lot of the time. basically, there's so much customization to be had with wrath, and it has enough relevant roles and niches in the meta for me to not be comfortable seeing it drop at all. if anything, i could see it rising.

oh btw, can we move
primeape up to a+? it has always been such as adept mon on its own, but the thing that really puts it in a high highlight for me is due to how splashable it is and how easy it is to use it to take advantage of teams throughout the course of a game. the thing is, a strong fighting type with strong stab has one of the best chances of forcing out things in the tier (pressuring so many relevant fighting-weak and physically frail mons like jynx, drampa, magmortar, abomosnow, etc.), which gives it an ample amount of opportunities to just u-turn around and grab up free momentum like it's no tomorrow. the thing about it that makes it so great in primeape's case is that it forces in a lot of physically bulky pokemon like weezing, gastrodon, gourgeist, and palossand, and we all know how crazy good special wallbreakers like drampa, abomosnow, and magmortar are at taking advantage of those things ape likes to u-turn out vs. aside from that, it's really good at abusing hazard stacking as a result. finally, defiant lets it put an insane amount of pressure vs most skuntank sets, teams that rely on qwil as their fighting check, webs teams, and many more. it's still an all-around solid revenge killer too, all things considered, and just a really annoying pokemon to deal with in general.
 

Jynx A+ -> S: Agreed
Honestly the scariest mon in the tier after Charizard left. Z-Lovely Kiss + Nasty Plot shreds through teams and doesn't care about Sucker Punch as long as Lovely Kiss lands and Sleep Clause isn't being broken, Choice Scarf coupled with near unresisted coverage makes it one of the best revenge killers, and Sash gives it almost guaranteed setup without the need of a Z Crystal. All three of these sets are usable and adds to Jynx's unpredictability and makes it a nightmare to play around, and I've personally lost 50-50's with Scarf Primeape. I'd go on, but rwby did a very good job summing up how much of a threat Jynx is, so thank you!

Personal nominations:

Roselia: C -> B-/C+
Sleep Powder with Spikes/TSpikes is a solid combination for getting up hazards, and unlike Qwilfish and Ferroseed it has an immediate form of recovery. While it can't Levitate like Weezing, this means it can absorb the ever-so potent Toxic Spikes, making it ideal to pair with things like Gastrodon. Its typing gives it a natural resist to Water, Electric, Fairy and Grass, making it a passable check to a decent portion of Special Attackers in the tier. While not having the well-rounded bulk Ferroseed has and not having the speed and Intimidate that Qwilfish has, it's still a solid poke and merits a rise.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 204-241 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Lanturn Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 88-104 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Eelektross Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ SpA Gorebyss Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 224-264 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Primeape: A -> A+
This is such a splashable mon, and it's something that almost every team has to carefully plan for. Superb coverage and U-Turn all work in its favor, as it grabs momentum by forcing in physically defensive pokes. It works well versus offense and webs, has good matchups versus the physically frail powerhouses of the tier, and just in general is a fantastic revenge killer.
 
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First of all, nominating Misdreavus to get ranked, probably somewhere around C+/B-. Bulky Ghost that doesn't afraid of Primeape or Hitmonchan, checks lots of Ground-types thanks to a valuable immunity, and can really mess with slower teams thanks to an arsenal of moves like Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, Nasty Plot, Pain Split etc. Unlike Sableye it's not passive and doesn't autolose to all Dark-types. Better than Silvally-Ghost/10

C and D rank: The Debloatening

Our C rank is absolutely colossal and D could also use some trimming so I'm just going over a few things that look like they could stand to drop down/fuck off as well as some things that could maybe go up:

Articuno C+ -> B: Someone else nommed this and yeah I agree, our hazard removal sucks less than before, we even have a Defog user in S rank, and Articuno with proper hazard removal is seriously annoying to beat. I think this thing has always been unfairly underrated because of its SR weakness and its conventionally bad defensive typing, its raw bulk and good STAB combo really do compensate tho, I mean, it's bulky to the point where it can function as a wincon simply by spamming SubRoost after anything that can hit it with a supereffective STAB is removed.

Vigoroth C+ -> C: Largely outclassed by Type: Null to the point where using it becomes kinda hard to justify.

Arbok C+ -> C: Even with Z-move this thing is too weak, mono Poison sucks as an offensive typing too.

Mawile C+ -> B-: Still vouching for this Pokemon, it's not amazing or anything but its defensive typing is good enough to put it above some of the somewhat trashy Pokemon of C+. Checks Normal-types, non-Earth Power Archeops, CB Aggron, Skuntank, Absol, Drampa (absolutely can't switch in on anything other than Specs Draco/Dragon Pulse but the fact that you need to make a Drampa user think twice before hitting that nuke is good imo), etc. Mawile should also be running Taunt + Toxic (imo!) in order to mess with some other slow Rockers (Regirock and Ferroseed in particular hate facing this) and beat slow setup sweepers like Type: Null and Musharna, something Ferroseed for example can't do. Also has a better matchup against Hitmonchan than most Rockers. It's decent imo.

Regice C+ -> C: Rock Polish can sweep teams if they're like, really weakened, but I feel you need to go through more trouble than it's worth before you can set up a sweep with this thing. It also has no hope of sweeping as long as there's a Scarf Primeape or a Mach Punch user around. Not bad per se but not really worth it on most teams, I feel.

Mudsdale C+ -> B-: Also seconding this, I haven't seen much RestTalk but it doesn't seem bad, what I do know is that CB sets can be seriously threatening thanks to the amount of threats it can switch in on + its ability to hit just about anything very hard.

Basculin C -> D: I really don't know why you would use this. Adaptability Aqua Jet is cool and all but between Floatzel, Carracosta, and Kabutops we have plenty of better Water-types. This thing is about as good as Simipour I'd say, which means it's not good at all.

Chatot C -> C-: stupid ass parrot rot in hell

Crustle C -> C+: Best Pokemon with Rocks + Spikes, giving it a niche as a hazard lead over Qwil or Archeops since unlike Archeops, you have Spikes (and getting two layers of hazards up isn't super difficult), and unlike Qwilfish you don't need a separate Rocker on your team when running Crustle. Rock Blast kills Archeops with three hits, Knock Off annoys Ferroseed which is always great, and Sash + Weak Armor allows you to go fast so you can lay down more than one hazard. I've used it and it's good on hyperoffensive teams so please give it a little more love thanks.

Camerupt C -> C-/D: Terrible Pokemon. Too naturally frail to be a tank, too slow to work as a wallbreaker, shaky defensive typing, really only worth using when you run Trick Room (and even then there are better options generally speaking) or when you really need something with Stealth Rock that can switch in on and threaten Ferroseed. This Pokemon was trash even in ORAS, and back then it at least got to check Zebstrika.

Marowak C -> C-/D: Also useless outside of TR, don't think there is any merit to an SR set.

Bronzor C -> C+: Already discussed this previously.

Shiinotic C -> C-: Spore and Strength Sap may be annoying but it's too frail to perform consistently. It could be actually good if it had any stats to speak of but alas.

Lumineon C- -> D: This is not gen 6, we have actual Defoggers now, don't do this to yourselves.

Metang C- -> C: Much like back in gen 5 NU, Jynx is a fucking monster and Metang happens to be a fantastic answer to that.

Silvally-Ground C- -> UR: What exactly does this do?

Relicanth C- -> UR: Kabutops exists, Carracosta exists. This Pokemon has no reason to exist in this tier.

Gogoat D -> UR: cute goat but absolutely terrible my god

Golduck D -> UR: Outclassed by several other rain sweepers, not worth using unless you want to score originality points for deliberately using an inferior alternative. It's also less cute than Ludicolo.

Kingler D -> UR: I am trying to understand why you would use this and it is making my brain hurt. Please, delete this.

Dusknoir D -> C-:
This is still a terrible Pokemon but I have seen people having some success with it, it's a reliable spinblocker and Fighting check (Primeape and Hitmonchan mostly) with an OK offensive presence, I have used it myself at some point and while it didn't impress, it didn't suck entirely.

Dusclops C- -> D/UR: Meanwhile, this is just...

Simisage D -> UR: Already explained by someone else, it just lacks a niche.

Trevenant D -> UR: Regular Eggy isn't particularly good in this meta and Trevenant is basically a downgrade of that. Mediocrity personified. You may say "but Z-Forest Curse!!" but why would I waste a z-move on this atrocity?

Other noms I want to discuss briefly:

Skuntank S -> A+: Disagree. Nothing has really changed for it over the course of the meta's development, it remains extraordinarily splashable. Between being one of the best Psychic answers, a Pursuit trapper, a Defogger, Toxic Spikes absorber, emergency revenge killer, and blanket check to a fuckton of threats, it's just one of the best Pokemon on offensive teams period. You will never regret using this.

Carracosta A+ -> S: Agree. It is a misunderstanding to state that because it has to choose whether it wants to be able to beat Scarfers/Hitmonchan, Gastrodon, or Ferroseed (with Ajet/HP Grass/HP Fire respectively). Let me flip this narrative: Carracosta has a limited set of checks and it can pick and choose which ones it wants to have a good matchup against. Costa is so customizable that it just lacks true counters bar like, Pyukumuku, and unlike a lot of other setup sweepers it has plenty of bulk to set up with (plus Solid Rock). There is basically a Costa for every situation, and while it may not always just win games, it tends to put in tons of work unless your opponent brings one of a handful of defensive checks, provided this Costa doesn't carry the appropriate coverage move for it.

Primeape A -> A+: Agree. This has always been one of the best Pokemon on offense, it has all the necessary attributes to be a great Scarfer, it's really splashable, is the only really viable means of "preventing" Defog, honestly just one of the best ones in the meta.

Silvally-Ghost & Toucannon to C+: Agree, these suck lol (i like toucan tho but it sucks :{) also bump silvally fairy down it suxx

Poliwrath B- -> C+: Disagree.
why would u say this

Mr Mime B- -> B: Agree drampa busted

 
Primeape to A+: 100% agree
Not only is it a great check to Drampa, but it is super splashable. It's scarf set is super scary on any team with a spinblocker and a hazard setter, because if the opponent use Defog on Primeape, it gets +2 attack cuz of Defiant. They either have to live with hazards for the match, or give Primeape double attack, which is super scary. U-turn is also a great move for it so it can pivot out and send in a resist for what it's fighting, and helps it against psychic types. The Choice band set is nice too, and allows Primeape to dish out crazy damage with Close Combat and if it gets a defiant boost.... oh boy.... Such a great pokemon rn I think it should definitely go to A+ as it is on the same level as stuff like Musharna, Qwilfish, and Magmortar imo
 


Oricorio-Sensu A -> A+

Now I know this has moved up in the last couple of updates, but it could stand to rise again. Now, I may be a little biased towards this, but I genuinely believe this mon has what it takes to be considered A+. The SubCM + Flyinium Z is very splashable in teams as of late, due to it simply improving your matchup against defensive teams substantially. I find this Pokémon is never dead weight against any team, and almost always gets a kill if you play it properly. Why? Well, for one Mesprit is on tons of teams, and Oricorio forces most of its sets out, allowing you to get a free sub. Most offensive Pokémon fail to take even an unboosted Supersonic Skystrike. It doesn't really need much support to do its job, all you really need is a halfway decent hazard remover, which isn't difficult between Skuntank, Hitmonchan, and Swanna.

But don't just take my word for it. Oricorio was used in 12 games in PUPL, tying for the seventh most used mon. And in those games, it had a staggering 83.33% winrate, much higher than anything else in the top ten (Archeops comes closest with a 61.54% winrate). Because of its splashability and consistency, I believe that this belongs in A+.
 
I don't normally post in VR but since theres been a bunch of big noms recently I wanna voice my opinions:

Skuntank to A+: Disagree
Don't wanna talk too much on this one cause jklioe wrote most of what I wanted to say already. Skuntank is still ridiculously splashable and almost as unpredictable as Mesprit. Even tho the meta has adapted to deal with skunk with shit like Mesprit Z Move, Oricorio Z move, sleep moves, etc. Skuntank has adapted right back. Acid Spray + Darkinium breaks through most if not all of its passive checks, Banded sets are great for luring things like Musharna that think they are safe to just click Z move, and Lum Berry helps to better check the Lilligant and Jynx. Y'all nibbas are crazy if you think this god mon should drop.

Screen Shot 2017-10-27 at 8.26.55 PM.png Eelektross to B+ or even A-?: Agree
Eelektross is a ridiculous mon and it legitimately doesn't really have any switch ins that wont be crippled in some way. Special walls like Clefairy and Type: Null get crippled by Knock Off or Acid Spray. All electric immunities lose to it thanks to Eel's fantastic special bulk with Assault Vest and Levitate. Not only does Eel have scary offensive capabilities, it can also blanket check a ton of mons. Non-Stone Edge Archeops, Oricorio, Lanturn, Floatzel, etc are all solidly checked by Eelektross. Overall its a solid mon that has gone criminally underrated up until now.

Primeape to A+: Agree
Yea this mon is almost as splashable as Mesprit and Skuntank on most playstyles and is almost a given on spikes offense thanks to its excellent cleaning/revenging abilities + Defiant.

Jynx to S: Disagree
Yes this mon is a super scary cleaner and can just win games on its own. But I don't think it quite reaches the level of splashability that Skunk and Mesprit do or the threat level that Archeops poses. There are a few things that I think hold Jynx back from the level of S. For one I think Jynx is quite one dimensional in how it plays and therefore quite predictable. Yes Jynx has other more niche sets like Scarf, but they are easily exploitable unlike Z Lovely Kiss. For another thing I don't think most people have really adapted to Jynx. I've seen a lot of unprepared teams whos counterplay for Jynx is either dodge Lovely Kiss or win the speed tie with Scarf Primeape. Jynx has plenty of mons that can revenge it that I don't think have really been properly explored: faster scarfers like Pyroar and strong priority from stuff like Lycanroc and LO Hitmonchan or Sucker users if you sack something to sleep are all perfectly viable things that can 1 shot Jynx. People are also starting to discover niche hard checks to Jynx like Dusknoir and Metang that aren't just deadweight vs anything but Jynx. Overall I think Jynx is fine where it is ATM and isn't quite S rank material yet.
 
drampa-a- to a/a+
okay,hear me out,drampa is fucking savage in the tier with the specs set,with almost has no switchins,and the switchins are very rare or die from 2 moves if the user predicts.even after the high sp attack there arent that many moves that can ohko it without being super effective
some calcs:
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 217-256 (73 - 86.1%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 214-254 (67.2 - 79.8%)
192+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 254-300 (85.5 - 101%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 307-363 (72.5 - 85.8%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 444-524 (109.9 - 129.7%
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 211-249 (71 - 83.8%)
overall,drampa definetely needs a higher rank
 

galbia

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i haven't posted in this thread for a while but since there has been some interesting discussion recently here and on discord i'd like to post what i think about the recent nominations.

in my opinion shouldn't drop to A+. i'll be short since jklioe made a good post about it but, while it's true that sometimes it struggles to beat what it's supposed to check like musharna/mesprit/oricorio/jynx etc. it's usually just because those mons are being ran together and using lure sets, just because skuntank is so great. it's the best defogger in the tier, one of the best toxic spikes absorbers (and deterrents in general), and in its worst games it functions well as a revenge killer with sucker punch + aftermath damage. i get that it has some sort of 4mss and lack of raw power but the fact that it isn't as effective at checking multiple threats on the opposing team is just because people rely on it too much.

is definitely something that should be used more as a check to the aforementioned pokemon by the way. i have used the assault vest set a bit after someone (many i think) suggested it in the chat and it has been great. it has great bulk to switch into any mesprit set a couple of times and with STAB knock off it can hit hard and cripple a lot of pokemon on opposing offense/bulky offense teams. shadow sneak is a must in my opinion since it's great against jynx and a pretty big annoyance for another top threat in primeape which can't easily force it out. it also does well against annoying mons for offense with strong stab sucker punch + drain punch and its low speed (even having just base 50 or 55 would help A LOT) is what stops it from being a good fit in the high B/low A ranks. in my opinion it should rise from C to B- or at least C+

to a+ is an absolute no brainer to me. the scarf set is the best momentum gainer in the tier, it resists stealth rock, it can get past qwilfish and it's the best late game cleaner in the tier. it's the reason to use stuff like
(which should be ranked) and dusknoir on offense and in general a top 5 mon in the tier to me.

Bad/mediocre mons

i have tested this mon and it's terrible. it doesn't deserve C+ rank. in theory it's a physical wallbreaker that can get past qwilfish but there is no reason to use it over a life orb/ebelt primeape and it struggles so much against popular pokemon like piloswine and archeops it's not even funny. this should be in D or Unranked, C+ makes no sense.

should this even be ranked? it just doesn't do anything imo

this is much, much, better than most pokemon in C and C+. i get that mesprit and archeops being good is a problem and that this needs a lot of support but those mons are like the easiest to chip and lure in the tier and this boi late game can be really scary so please make it C+

this is much worse than pyroar and magmortar at everything it tries to do
 

allstarapology

formerly drumstick
Just wanted to address two of the nominations I’ve seen. I won’t be overly detailed due to there already being posts about them, but I felt as if I might be able to add something minor to the discussion.


Primeape from A to A+: Agree

Primeape is a really solid Pokemon for many reasons. It has a great speed tier, and with a Choice Scarf, outspeeds Pokemon like Choice Scarf Oricorio, Choice Scarf Mesprit, +1 Lilligant, +2 Carracosta, Archeops, Swanna as well as a ton of the meta as a whole, and it speedties with Jynx after a Z Lovely Kiss, something not a lot of Pokemon do; it grabs momentum easily by using the Weezing/Mesprit/whatever physical wall switch-in as an opportunity to U-Turn out and bring in something that can threaten them; it makes hazard stack super threatening by being the best Defog deterrent due to Defiant, and it’s just so easy to throw on teams when you need a revenge killer or a late-game cleaner.



Oricorio-Sensu from A to A+: Agree

The Sub-CM Supersonic Skystrike set is relatively easy to throw on teams as well, and it’s really effective in pretty much every game it’s in due to Supersonic Skystrike being a complete nuke and hitting any Pokemon that doesn’t have superb bulk + resist Flying-type moves hard. It has really nice typing, and its STABs are only resisted by the not-so-super-common Pawniard, which is still rather frail and takes quite a bit from SSSS. It can function as a good spinblocker and can find opportunities to set up fairly easily due to how many Pokemon it forces out like Gurdurr, Hitmonchan, Qwilfish, Weezing, Mesprit, Lilligant, Choice-locked Pokemon like Pyroar, Primeape, and more. The rise in Eelektross usage slightly hurts it, but shouldn’t be a huge problem so long as you play it correctly.
 
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