Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

Throh > B: Disagree
I'm going to chime in with the Throh nomination here and say I don't believe it deserves to drop a rank at all. Teddeh has already gone over most of the points to why it shouldn't drop so I'm not going to regurgitate them, but from my experience using Throh I can say that the specially defensive set is not only a good win condition but also both a reliable status absorber and wall. It isn't too hard to fit it on teams and the ability to phaze is really useful in such a hazard dominant meta (this may be subject to change depending on the newer defoggers, however). While I personally haven't tried the Choice Band set I can say, watching Teddeh use it, that without a doubt it's incredibly solid at what it does, luring in standard switch-ins like Weezing and baiting them to Burn itself, which in turn allows Throh to break said Pokemon far more efficiently. Currently I'm on the fence about it actually rising, but I have to strongly disagree about it dropping.

Jynx > S: Agree
I agree with this Pokemon moving up, as I initially nominated it for S rank prior to this, but I still believe that people are misinformed about what makes it S rank. It isn't S rank material due to a single set being the absolute best, which is the general feeling I get from the Z Lovely Kiss set, but because it is unpredictable, having access to several viable sets including; Z Lovely Kiss, Choice Scarf, Focus Sash, and Substitute Nasty Plot. The current issue is that, unlike with ORAS NU, you will almost always be able to tell that the set being used on your opponents side of the field is Z Lovely Kiss, because it's the set that received the most hype, and thus makes it far easier to prep for from team preview. If you don't know what set your opponent is then you have to first scout, as each of its sets are able to deal with and beat certain checks to other sets, before you can correctly deal with it; this makes Jynx scarier compared to just playing against the Z set. Another thing that I want to bring up is the set that I bolded and is one that, again, I don't think players quite grasp how effective it is. Substitute + Lovely Kiss gives it opportunity upon opportunity to set up in contrast to the Z set, with the combination of the previously mentioned two moves plus Leftovers generating free turns with relative ease. It's able to set up on and beat almost every common check, similar to how Oricorio Sensu takes on Dark-types like Skuntank, while being able to apply this pressure throughout the match. The Substitute set can even run Normalium Z over Leftovers, to double as a sweeper / cleaner, with it being very hard to deal with even when restricted to only Ice Beam and no passive recovery. I'd like Dibs The Dreamer, HJAD and Taskr to also add to this, as they've tested and played around with Jynx far more than I have.
 
(Noctowl) Unranked ---> C-

Some of you may know I have been experimenting with Noctowl over the last few days, notably a set utilizing Choice Specs and Tinted lens. At first I was using Noctowl for the sake of just using it but after quite a few games I came to realize that Noctowl is actually quite good. It has several qualitys that I feel should really push it to a spot on the USUM Viability Rankings including the ease of which it is to use, some metagame trends it can abuse, and the unexpected power it possesses. first off the set I've been using looks like this:


Noctowl @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 152 HP / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Hyper Voice
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Fighting]


I have been using a bulkier spread creeping adamant max speed Aggron, however there has been a few circumstances where I feel more speed would have benefited me more It was just never a big enough issue for me to change it. Hyper Voice is just a secondary spammable STAB mostly for picking off threats and it also can 2HKO SpDef Togedemaru. Heat Wave is really only used to get a OHKO on Ferroseed however Hurricane gets the 2HKO unless they are highly invested in SpDef. Hidden Power Fighting is used for the rare Probopass; this set really is all about Hurricane as you will be clicking it 4/5 times Noctowl comes in, which is what I Feel sets it apart from other similar breakers, Choice Specs Mesprit for example takes quite a bit of skill to use, with the threat of Skuntank, and predicting the right move on the right switch in, Noctowl simply clicks Hurricane and unless your opponent has a very bulky special walls, like Clefairy, you will most likely force a sack. It is also incredibly easy to switch in on some of the defensive hazard setters such as Weezing and even defensive Mesprit as Noctowls special bulk is respectable, this alone abuses common metagame trends such as Weezing x Regirock as you easily come in on Weezing which is obviously forced out, and when Weezing is paired with Regirock most of the time Regirock is the Flying resists which is normally fine but when Noctowl can 2HKO most variants of Regirock you can really start to see how Noctowl can dismantle common cores such as this.

So, now that I went over the ease of use I will go over the power of Choice Specs Hurricane which really is quite surprising on how many 2HKOs it gets, which is how I've been playing Noctowl it OHKOs enough to force switches and 2HKOs a good chunk of the current metagame leaving balanced teams very weak to Noctowl.

Offensive Calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 300-354 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Qwilfish: 358-423 (107.1 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Noctowl Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock: 210-250 (57.6 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Noctowl Hurricane vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 192-226 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 148-175 (50.6 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Noctowl Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aggron: 138-162 (49.1 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Noctowl Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togedemaru: 160-190 (48 - 57%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Defensive Calcs

0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Noctowl: 88-105 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 72.8% chance to 4HKO

0 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Noctowl: 105-124 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Noctowl: 144-169 (37.9 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-664590975 vs drumstick

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-665136082 roomtour game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-665995525 vs cryalot
 
Hey guys! I would like to say I disagree with Crustle's current ranking of C+ and some reasons why it should be at least B in the viability rankings.




Crustle @ White Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake

I wanted to find a different set up sweeper that wasn't Jynx or Lilligant or Carracosta. I stumbled upon Crustle and I remembered it got Shell Smash and it wasn't that bad of a shell smasher compared to Costa so I decided to use it. I think it is a mockery to Crustle that it is in C tier and mons like Ursaring are B-.


Pros
  • Crustle's moveset is able to hit everything in the tier for neutral or super effective damage.
  • Despite the fact it does not outspeed scarf primeape at +2, it is not fazed at all by any of Primeape's moves, especially CC and Edge and can KO it with EQ
  • It is faster than Costa and can KO it with Earthquake.
  • The ability Sturdy always allows Crustle to set up a Shell Smash in front of mons that it has a disadvantage against like Floatzel for example.

252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 139-165 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Primeape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I believe Crustle can be an alternative to Costa as a Shell Smash sweeper. Despite the fact Costa can do more damage due to slightly higher attack stat (108 vs 105) and it can also run special moves on its set, hasmore reliable dual-STAB and doesn't have a rocks weakness, Crustle has the superior speed, lacks a x4 weakness and can still do roughly as much damage as Costa.

This mon I believe is highly underrated as a sweeper when, with the right support, can be as good or almost equal to Costa.
 
Time for some VR noms!



B -> A-

With USUM coming out Zangoose was able to learn a great move in Belly Drum which in conjunction with Quick Attack, turns Zangoose into a devastating cleaner against any opposing offense team lacking good checks like Archeops and Oricorio-Sensu. It can also afford to run coverage such as Close Combat and Knock Off to hit Rock, Steel and Ghost types making it hard for defensive teams to stop too since the only good defensive measures this Pokemon has are Bulky Ghost types with Colbur Berry such as Palossand and Gourgeist. Other offensive checks such as Haunter, Scarf Oricorio-Sensu and Misdreavus are able to be severely weakened or Pursuit trapped by Dark types like Skuntank and Absol. It is also not that hard to set up the Belly Drum when paired with Memento support as the PU tier isn't really short on Memento users or just on passive Pokemon such as Clefairy or Gastrodon. Here I just want to drop a replay of me vs Aaronboyer who's using Archeops/Sensu-less offense to show how devastating this can be:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-665277207




A -> A+

Ferroseed is a really solid defensive Pokemon that can be a huge pain for opposing teams to deal with. Leech Seed + Protect is able obnoxiously wear down teams without Grass-types or Sap Sipper Pokemon whilst in the meantime lay down Spikes which puts a lot of pressure on teams with Rapid Spinners or grounded Defoggers such as Hitmonchan or Skuntank respectively. Ferroseed can also take on a good portion of the tier including Rock-types such as Golem and Drill Run Lycanroc, Water-types such as Carracosta and Kabutops, Psychic-types like Mesprit and Jynx, and lastly, Grass-types such as Z-Hyper Beam Lilligant and Leafeon. When paired with a good Fire/Fighting resists this Pokemon can be the bane of your life. If you go to turn 23 in this replay from PU seasonal you can see how obnoxious it can be:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-663825421




B -> B+

I talked about this mon quite a bit here earlier in the month but I still feel like all the points I made still count and that Haunter can be a very threatening wallbreaker against any team without Skuntank. Its viabilty has also improved due it being able to check Belly Drum Zangoose.


Some noms I agree with:


A+ -> S

Still kinda on the fence about this mon, at first I didn't think it should rise but now i'm leaning towards it rising to S rank. Jynx is probably the best set-up sweeper in the tier and with the invention of Z-Lovely Kiss + Substitute it can be really hard to stop since a lot of teams rely on priority moves to deal with it. It is also a very versatile Pokemon with it being capable of running sets like Sub+Lefties, Choice Scarf and Focus Sash which means it can even be used to bypass different checks and counters with different sets. Here's a replay vs Many who had to rely on Skuntank as his Jynx check:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-663317067


B+ -> A-

Stealth Rock was a blessing for this Pokemon making it one of the best Stealth Rockers in the tier in my opinion. Palossands great bulk allows it to be a solid check to pretty much all of the Fighting-types in the tier which is usually hard to accomplish in one slot. Its bulk also allows it to check things is like Archeops, Raichu-A and Zangoose which are some of the biggest threats in the tier.



B -> B+

Togedemaru is actually a really nice pivot with a lot of key resistances like Ice, Psychic and Flying which allow it to switch in on predicted Ice Beams and Hurricanes and then pivot out. It is in particularly really nice for Z-Lovely Kiss Jynx and Z-Hyper Beam Lilligant who are some of the tiers biggests threats in terms of set-up sweeping. USUM gave Togedemaru the ability to use Iron Head which improves the viability of the Choice Scarf set, and with its really nice base 96 Speed tier it is able to outspeed and revenge kill the threats I previously mentioned in Jynx and Lilligant, but also it gives it the ability to outspeed Choice Scarf Primeape which is also really nice.



B+ -> A-

Eelektross is another mon that can be really annoying to deal with as it has great general bulk and can Volt Switch freely due to it threatening Ground-types like Gastrodon and Palossand with Giga Drain. It is also able to take on Grass-types that resist the Volt Switch such as Ferroseed and Abomasnow with Flamethrower. Eelekross is a great Pokemon for Bulky Offense as its ability to check a ton of things such as Archeops, Oricorio-Sensu and Floatzel whilst getting off slow Volt Switches to bring in your wallbreakers safely.



C+ -> B- (not B)

Defog definitely improves Altaria's viability and it is still a good switch in to Fire-types such as Magmortar but the reason I don't think it should be B just yet is due to it being threatened by a lot of Stealth Rockers such as Regirock, Golurk and Ice Beam Mesprit and it can also suffer from a similar syndrome to Togetic by being pressured easily because it's weak to Stealth Rock itself (although Leftovers somewhat mitigates this).


Some noms I disagree with:


A+ -> S

I think pretty much every competitive PU team should have a Primeape counter and with Palossand also improving in usage it makes it harder for Primeape to function as well as it used to. On top of this, Choice Scarfers which are able to outspeed Primeape such as Togedemaru, Pyroar and Manectric are starting to see more usage so I don't see Primeape rising any time soon.


A- -> A

Good Balance teams tend to now run good measures for Drampa such as Pokemon with Protect paired with Fairy or Ghost types and even things like Carbink getting a slight usage bump. Also, offensive teams prep for it more too by running things like Poison Jab/Explosion on Qwilfish so it doesn't get a free switch in as well as Breakneck Blitz Lilligant being more common than HP so Drampa doesn't check it well.


C+ -> B

Crustle as a Shell Smasher just doesn't have enough of a niche of Carracosta to be used. Crustle has no special options such as Hydro Pump and Ice Beam to beat counters like Costa, it has no priority like Carracosta's Aqua Jet which is able to KO Scarfers like Primeape after some chip at +2 and Crustle isnt able to outspeed these Scarfers so I really see no reason why I would use this over Costa.
 
Hey guys! It's been a VERY long time since I've posted on the VR, so I figured I would state my opinions on some of the recent noms, and make a nom of my own.

Jynx A+ to S: Agree Jynx is a terrifying mon to face, just due to its sheer sweeping capabilities
and unpredictability. It also gets access to some great STABs, which can
hit almost all of the tier for neutral damage.
Eelektross B+ to A-: Agree. Eelektross is one of the best Volt Switch users in the tier, and has
great special bulk, awesome coverage like Giga Drain, a great
ability that nullifies its one weakness, and a decent special attack
stat.

Now, for my nom, I will be noming Pinsir for A-. Similar to Jynx, Pinsir is best known for setting up with a Z-move and plowing through the enemy team. The Z-move in question is Z Me-First, which doubles the user's speed, AND uses a Z-move correlating to the move the opposing pokemon was going to use, so long as Pinsir is faster than the opposing Pokemon. From there, Pinsir can abuse one of its abilities, Moxie, to snowball and become near unstoppable. Pinsir also has a great attack stat and decent coverage options, like Knock Off and Stone Edge, making it relatively easy to get a kill, especially against a weakened or frail pokemon.
On top of this, after using Z Me-First, Pinsir outspeeds all of the relevant Choice Scarfers in the tier, (assuming Pinsir has max speed EVs with a neutral nature, which is standard to my knowledge) making it very difficult to revenge kill without priority (most of which, excluding Accelerock, aren't enough to kill a moderately healthy Pinsir). For these reasons, I feel Pinsir is deserving of A-.

(I apologize for the weird formatting of the first part of the post, I'm working with mobile)
 
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Primeape A+ > S: Disagree
I see where a lot of people are coming from when they like talking about how Primeape is amazing and should be S rank for its power and place in the meta, but... It doesn't exactly do anything other than what it's known to do and that makes it super easy to know what Primeape this and build against it. Counters and checks to it allow for Primeape to be shut down and not exactly what I would say is S tier material if it's linear and does not feel as relevant or flexible as Skuntank or Mesprit. Not much else to say really, it's just not good enough to warrant the S rank.

Throh B+ > B: Disagree
Not my favorite mon, but why compare Throh to the other Fighting types as it doesn't share the same job (well at least anything but Gurdurr which is probably the Fighting type closest to it), but I think there's something a bit misunderstood here. First off, it isn't that weak without bulk up and can use knock off making it effectively a RestTalk two move attacker with Guts which can tank and deal with special ghost types barring Oricario-Sensu (due to Hurricane) and can even deal with some bulky ghost types. Not only that, if the excuse is that it can't hit Ghost types due to single STAB being immuned, then Type:Null should also fall since it has the same thing going for it, being a set up, rest, and single STAB that's immuned by Ghost. Not to mention that absorbing any status is easy for Throh and can even been thrown into sleep inflicting moves. Overall, not sure why this would drop due to the amount of power THroh holds alone.

Eelektross B+ > A-: Agree
Considering I've been spamming the hell out of Eel on my teams, no idea how this slipped my mind. Basically everything's been said, great AV user, not as many Volt Switch takers, great coverage, etc.

Altaria C+ > B-: Agree
Was actually playing around with its set and it feels nice having a new defogger in the tier that isn't Swanna. Overall nice bulk on it, not terrible damage, but weakness to stealth rock and inability to kill many things makes it far worse than say Swanna or Silvally-Fairy as defoggers. Usable, but not as viable as the others makes it a nice stay at B-

Now as for my own little one, it's not a big one, but everyone is mentioning water and steel, but...

Silvally-Ground C- > C:
Silvally-Ground has some nifty resistances and some obvious weaknesses, with the ability to switch into Pokemon like Skuntank or possibly check Pokemon like Archeops and while I haven't tinkered with it enough yet, if Water and Steel are being nominated to C, I see no reason for Ground to be left out as a nice mono typing as well. I believe running offensive Silvally-Ground with Defog/Parting is possible due to how it's better as an offensive damage Silvally and that's how it checks things rather than bulky like Water or Steel.

Silvally-Dragon D > C/C-:
With the lack of Fairy types and the abundance of basic elemental attackers, Silvally-Dragon can check most things similar to Altaria, difference being that it has parting shot instead of being a cleric, no recovery, and no dual typing so that it still resists electric but not fighting and isn't weak to rocks or quad weak to ice. Like all other Silvally, it's fast for a support and can get out status or defog that the other Dragon defogger may fail to do.

Wait wait waaaait. I forgot one more nomination I was using for fun earlier last week.

Rotom-S D > C+/C:
The thing I like about Rotom-S as a defogger is that it brings a pivoting move, can burn and has useful resistances to Fighting, Flying, and Grass. A physical wall with defog and pivoting with resistances or being immune to popular physical attacking types is great (although it's a shame about its ability). This makes it to switch in on things like Gurdurr or a predicted move on Primeape (not Hitmonchan though for Ice Punch). Even with its flaws of being weak to Ice and rocks as a defogger, I feel can make a rise slowly through the ranks with its unique niche as a defogger (unique because Rotom-F is nowhere near as good as a defensive defogger).Smash
 
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Primeape A+ > S: Disagree
I see where a lot of people are coming from when they like talking about how Primeape is amazing and should be S rank for its power and place in the meta, but... It doesn't exactly do anything other than what it's known to do and that makes it super easy to know what Primeape this and build against it. Counters and checks to it allow for Primeape to be shut down and not exactly what I would say is S tier material if it's linear and does not feel as relevant or flexible as Skuntank or Mesprit. Not much else to say really, it's just not good enough to warrant the S rank.
A mon being linear and being predictable doesn't change how viable the mon is; look no further than Naganadel being banned in OU when all it did was use 1 set to decimate the entire tier. Sure, you knew 99% from team preview what its set was, but that didn't stop its set from being extremely overwhelming.

The question that should be asked is "is Primeape's primary set (Scarf) so exceptionally good that its dominance pushes it into the top of the tier?" My answer is.... well, I really am not sure. Primeape is without a doubt the best user of Choice Scarf in the tier, it's the best revenge killer (imo), and its able to threaten so much of the tier with its coverage; however, it has 4mss, and can be easily abused by threats such as Carracosta and Ori-Sensu if locked into an unfavorable move. Yeah, you can U-Turn to pick off weakened mons and all, but it really does suck to be able to be abused so easily.

If there was a spot between A+ and S, I would say Primeape would fit there (no, this is not a post advocating for an S- rank - stop). I believe Primeape is without a doubt a top 5 mon; however, there are enough drawbacks to keep Primeape in A+, such as its only common set being easily abused by top-tier threats, and Primeape's checks being commonly seen.

i suck at this tier though so most of this is probably wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
A mon being linear and being predictable doesn't change how viable the mon is; look no further than Naganadel being banned in OU when all it did was use 1 set to decimate the entire tier. Sure, you knew 99% from team preview what its set was, but that didn't stop its set from being extremely overwhelming.

The question that should be asked is "is Primeape's primary set (Scarf) so exceptionally good that its dominance pushes it into the top of the tier?" My answer is.... well, I really am not sure. Primeape is without a doubt the best user of Choice Scarf in the tier, it's the best revenge killer (imo), and its able to threaten so much of the tier with its coverage; however, it has 4mss, and can be easily abused by threats such as Carracosta and Ori-Sensu if locked into an unfavorable move. Yeah, you can U-Turn to pick off weakened mons and all, but it really does suck to be able to be abused so easily.

If there was a spot between A+ and S, I would say Primeape would fit there (no, this is not a post advocating for an S- rank - stop). I believe Primeape is without a doubt a top 5 mon; however, there are enough drawbacks to keep Primeape in A+, such as its only common set being easily abused by top-tier threats, and Primeape's checks being commonly seen.

i suck at this tier though so most of this is probably wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's true, but the set isn't good enough to be linear and crush 99% of the time which is the whole point of what I mean by Primeape's push to S tier seems too much to me. If your set is linear, you have to be able to crush the tier or else it's easier to build against.
 
I meant to post this a while ago, so sorry if I'm echoing points that have already been made, but here is my take on Primeape.

Primeape from A+ to : disagree
The thing with Primeape is that its undeniably a top 5 mon from a teambuilding perspective, being the tiers best and most splashable speed control. But beyond that, the tier has adapted in a way to exploit its main choice scarf set without using unusable niche mons. Ground and fighting immunities restrict Primeape's ability to revenge mons reliably because it gives away free turns once locked in to Close Combat or Earthquake, which is especially dangerous with Sensu being so popular as it can be very hard to deal with when given a free sub.

Primeape has a sense of predictability, from team preview you almost always assume its going to be scarf, making it easier to check when building. This was also true for Jynx's Z-Lovely Kiss set, but the diversifying of Jynx sets with the rise of subkiss has changed this drastically as the now 2 common sets beat each others main checks. Primeape also has other sets which could help its exploitable predictability problem, but they're still checked by the same mons as scarf. If anything they become easier to check because Primeape is frail and the lower speed tier means its able to be revenge killed by more mons.

Overall I'm glad that Primeape is getting recognition because it very much so deserves it, but I don't think it deserves to be S. It's become a victim of its own success and multiple fighting checks are easy to fit on a team, and most of the time are needed because we have 5 viable fighting types with good meta presence. Because we have so many good fighting checks it gets to the point where Primeape is forced into a predictable and exploitable pattern of clicking U-turn 90% of the time.
 

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Finally updating this for USUM, because a few weeks isn't late at all.

Lumineon C- to D
Palossand B+ to A-
Altaria C+ to B-
Rotom-Spin D to C
Silvally-Water Unranked to C
Silvally-Steel C- to C
Servine Unranked to C-
Kingler D to C+
Passimian B to B+
Togedemaru B to B+
Lanturn A to A-
Eelektross B+ to A-
Belossom Unranked to C
Poliwrath B- to C+
Noctowl Unranked to D
Zangoose B to A-
Ferroseed A to A+
Haunter B to B+

Important noms that were rejected: Primeape A+ to S, Jynx from A+ to S

If you want a good post about why Primeape isn't S, look at the one directly above this. As for Jynx, the best I have is that we were all more or less on the fence but really this just isn't as metagame defining as Arch/Mes/Skunk. It's become easier to check (SCARF TOGE SCARF TOGE), Sub+NP hasn't really made a big splash, and it just doesn't require the same level of strong adaptation or come with the same level of splashability as the rest of S rank. It's basically the same things that keep Lilligant out of A+ keep Jynx out of S. Amazing mon, understandable nomination, but council is still against this nom. The rest shouldn't be too out of the blue with the only surprises to me being how far something rose/fell, but if you have a question feel free to contact me or ask on discord/the SQSA.
The graphs of how people voted are here, please check them out before bringing back up an old nomination. I really don't want to see something like Primeape brought up again when council was so clearly against its rise unless there is a very good reason for it. Also I know we voted on Ferro A- to A when it was supposed to be A to A+, we ran a council vote afterwards so no graph
As for any discussion points, the only nomination council was split completely 50/50 on was Pinsir moving up to A-, so I wouldn't mind seeing more on that. Otherwise, go nuts.
 
Persian-Alola B - B+


Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 96 HP / 204 Def / 208 Spe
Impish Nature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Toxic

So here's a mon that doesn't see much use but has gotten a pretty great move in USUM, that being Knock Off. It really helps it cripple things that like to come in on it, like Weezing and Qwilfish. It also threatens one of the biggest threats in the meta, Jynx. Which you can speed creep while retaining a lot of your bulk. Parting shot makes this thing a great pivot, and also allows other mons on your team to come in a bit safer. Z Parting Shot allows it to heal up, which is useful because you don't get any reliable recovery moves. Overall I think with the addition of Knock Off to its arsenal and being a great pivot/annoyance to balance teams I think it deserves to be in B+. Though if it doesn't get bumped up, people should still try it out!
 

Natu: C- -> D


I've been testing this mon on a couple teams as a form of semi-hazard control, and I don't feel that it does its job well at all. Firstly, it loses to nearly every form of hazard setter and remover in the tier (Things like Golem and Cacturne can Sucker Punch into their U-Turn.) Things like Hitmonchan 2HKO Physdef Natu with Ice Punch, Skuntank hard counters it and Pursuit traps it, and its bulk is pretty bad even with Eviolite. I understand that this Poke is risk and reward, but I feel as if the reward isn't that substantial when it loses to things that Natu is supposed to stop. Recent meta shifts were not kind to it at all. Rocks Pallo and Mudsdale beat it (Provided the former is Shadow Ball > EP), new tools given to wallbreakers such as Knock Off Passimian and Liquidation Kingler pressure it, a huge wave of defoggers give it tons of competition as a form of status and hazard control (Volbeat is a prime example, as its bulk is better, can hold something like Lefties or Rocky Helmet, can lock things into certain moves and also pivot out) and I don't feel as if it does much to warrant a spot in C-. Even Weezing is capable of doing upwards of 45% to it with Sludge Bomb if it's not full SpDef.


Zangoose: A- -> A

Holy hell this thing is amazing. Have you guys tried it? Belly Drum is a really valuable edition to it, as being at +6 with access to STAB priority can be a late-game wincon just on its own. Despite its poor natural bulk, it easily sets up on passive mons like Gastrodon, Ferroseed, Bronzor, among others, as the health regained through Sitrus Berry/Figy Berry lets it deal with anything said mons throw at it. Primeape and Hitmonchan can't revenge it as they're both OHKO'D by +6 Quick Attack, Fighting/Dark/Normal coverage means only Fairies can really deal with it well, and most of its weaknesses are handled easily by Skuntank (Pursuit trapping Scarfed Ghosts, dealing with Fairies, etc.) and I do feel as if this is something that every team should prepare for, since it KO's most sweepers with Quick Attack and outspeeds most wallbreakers. If you're not packing Gurdurr, Scarf Oricorio-G or defensive Granbull, Zangoose just has a fun time running through your team. Have fun Prankster Encoring this thing when it outspeeds your Volbeat as well. I'd like to hear some opinions on this particular nomination, as it does require minor team support such as the aforementioned Skuntank.

+6 252 Atk Zangoose Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 246-290 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+6 252 Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 363-427 (133.9 - 157.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252 Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 291-343 (99.3 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 339-399 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252 Atk Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 441-519 (125.2 - 147.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252 Atk Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 438-516 (102.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


12/17 EDIT
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-675235118 here's a replay of Zangoose saving my ass. It got one chance to set up on the Scarf Toge and it OHKO'd one mon every turn, including what looked like defensive Mesprit through Colbur Berry. Going back to my original post, I find that it can position itself to set up versus passive threats quite easily. PU itself has plenty of Parting Shot users, slow Volt Switch/U-Turn users, and a small handful of Memento users which makes it easy for Zangoose to set up on weakened threats and almost instantly win. In all honestly, if NU doesn't take this mon in the next tier shift then I'd say this thing is worthy of a suspect test.
 
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Megazard

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I really don't like where B rank is at right now with less than a third than the mons B+ and B- have. That in and of itself isn't a reason to change the VR, but I think it's more due to not accurately reflecting the rankings of certain mons rather than there simply not being enough things that fit in B rank. So yeah, this is what I'd do to fix this stuff.

Stoutland B+ to B: Stout isn't bad by any means, but Passimian really gives it a run for its money. Stout was raised so high in the first place because, unlike Kangaskhan, you had the consistency to just spam Scrappy Return and Superpower all the time. But Ferroseed is just really good and always forces Stout into 50/50s, Passimian is also a super strong, consistent, slower CB user, and Stoutland doesn't deserve to be in the same rank as Ret, or so close to Kangaskhan when it's definitely an inferior choice imo.

Absol B+ to B: I still hate accuracy issues, but I'll admit now that more experience with Ret, and maybe Knock but probably just an evolution of how I see the mon, has convinced me that it's better than Absol. Not always a reason to drop a mon, but in this case I think B+ overestimates how likely you are to fit Absol onto a team when it's competing with Ret. I know they aren't 1-1 replacements and Absol can do its own thing, but they are really really similar.

Ludicolo B+ to B: Just not a fan of this mon really. Struggles with lots of random bulky things, struggles versus offensive builds that make it hard to set up, struggles with getting worn down by Tspikes and priority spam, struggles to find a place on my team when Lilligant and Carracosta are such amazing grass and water sweepers. This has a clearly defined and threatening niche, but I don't think it pulls it off well enough to be placed alongside the likes of Lycanroc or Pinsir

Liepard B to B-: Yeah I want B to get bigger but this just isn't good enough. Dark-type moves are surprisingly annoying to be reliant on in this meta with plenty of bulky resists that just don't mind taking it on. It doesn't switch in well to like, anything, Prankster Twave/Encore isn't that great of a selling point to stop setup sweepers when there isn't much that deserves that much respect and catch-all preparation for (same with Kadabra honestly), and NP is just really disappointingly checked by too much. I dislike the overuse of the term 4mss when it's often incorrect, but Liepard has exactly that. You can't drop anything without feeling like it hurts the Pokemon significantly. Try this mon and you'll almost certainly know what I mean when I say this is in no way B rank.

Lurantis B- to B: But this mon is awesome. I haven't even messed around with Superpower, Leaf Storm is just so great to spam at things. The offensive pressure provided by a physically defensive defogger is just unprecedented, this is a real pain in the ass for a lot of teams, especially bulkier hjad/teddeh balance teams (this is an archetype now) that have started to go on the rise. I know that being vulnerable to Spikes and the 1000 Flying-types flapping around is a pain for it, and you definitely want a Tspkes absorber and plenty of birb checks on the same team, but this still has a lot more potential than the rest of its rank. I feel like B- is where we start to fit more gimmicky or specific playstyle things like Trick Room, Mr. Mime, Audino, Combusken, etc. and Lurantis doesn't deserve that same level of treatment. Oh and buttnut123 likes it and everyone agrees with what he says.
 
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Crabominable C+ to B-: I've been doing some testing and Crabominable is a beast under trick room, capable of destroying balanced teams and turning the the tide in a instant. Ice/Fighting is a great STAB combination, and isn't resisted by anything in the tier save Quilfish who gets wrecked by EQ anyway, which Crab can take advantage of with its high power moves such as Close Combat and Ice Hammer. 97 HP is also pretty decent allowing Crab to survive a Mach Punch from Hitmonchan at -1. Couple that with Power Up Punch, which does a good amount of damage, thanks to Iron Fist, and you got yourself a powerful wall breaker and sweeper!

Replay:
The Crab sweeps once Qwil is gone:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-674236775
 
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Natu C- --> D: Disagree

I've been experimenting a lot with Natu on various playstyles and I couldn't disagree with it dropping more. Natu has historically only been viable on stall as a way of stopping passive hazards setters which it does fine, but after a lot of testing I can say with full confidence that you can use it for the same purpose on offense. When using Natu on offense, you really don't need it to do anymore than keep hazards off of your side of the field or even scare your opponent into not clicking hazards.

Natu @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Night Shade
- U-turn
- Reflect
- Roost

With this set, Natu can beat many of the tiers most popular hazard setters like Defensive Mesprit, Ferroseed, Regirock, Qwilfish, and Weezing without Tbolt. Reflect lets it easily stall out Regirock's Stone Edges and with the given EVs you can cleanly switch in on a Stone Edge anyways. Reflect also gives you a way of getting around Skuntank's Pursuit, a common argument for why you shouldn't use Natu. Yes the advent of Palossand in USUM has made Natu's job a bit harder, but Palo is still forced into 50/50s most of the time just like any other offensive setter.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-668575377
This replay perfectly showcases how Natu can be a solid asset in the offense v offense matchup. Even though my opponent predicts the Natu switch every time, it forces him into a situation in which he can never get up rocks. Because of this my team is not pressured by hazards at all while my opponent's is. This means the rest of my team can much more effectively perform their roles as they are never pressured by hazards. I'd love to hear some more opinions on this but personally i don't think a drop to D is warranted and could even stand to see it rise to C.

Togedemaru from B+ --> A-

Toge has proven itself to be great glue no matter what set you run, compressing a reliable Jynx check, Psychic resist, bird resist, and pivot into one mon. All that value makes it a great pick for a multitude of playstyles, from HO to Balance. It's also highly customizable to suit your team's needs. Scarf can clean just as well if not better than Scarf Ape thanks to a great speed tier and dual stab. Offensive Utility sets can function as great offensive checks to stuff like Oricorio and Musharna. It can even run spdef sets to pass wishes for balance or just more reliably check the above mentioned threats. This mon is just way more splashable and useful than the rest of B+, so I think a rise is a no brainer.
 
Okay, so I'm not going to make a nomination in this post - even though I do support quite a lot of the previous nominations - but instead I'm going to focus on something I think is an issue. Recently me and Dibs The Dreamer were talking about potential Pokémon that could rise to S rank and how, even if they didn't rise, they're some of the best Pokémon in the meta; this list included Oricorio-Sensu, Primeape, and Jynx. However, we came across an issue... None of these Pokémon can compete with Skuntank and Mesprit, and I'd never want people to assume they're on the same level as these two, because they just aren't as splashable (at this point I do question if Archeops deserves S rank currently, but that's a post for another day). This raises the issue of do we keep S rank exclusive to these two Pokémon or do we do something to denote that, while other Pokémon could S rank in their own respects, both Mesprit and Skuntank are above and beyond everything else. This comes on to my suggestion of ranking every Pokémon from S to B rank by order of viability. I think, by doing this, that this'll allow some of the best threats in our meta to distinguish themselves in S rank without suggesting that they're on the same level as Mesprit or Skuntank; and if we didn't move them up, then we'd be able to show that they're at least the best of their specific sub-rank.

I do understand that this could make the Viability Rankings more subjective if people are nominating Pokémon up and down inside sub-ranks, so I also propose that the ranking inside sub-ranks is solely handled by our very capable council.
 
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Kecleon to B-/B
Kechleon is in my opinion way better than the current C+ mons. It's ability+ coverage + special bulk+decent attack stat+ priority makes it very annoying to deal with. Defenitly when you aren't prepared for it. It checks dangerous mons like raich-a, jynx and oricoro sensu with its priority. It has a spamable stab with knock off. With a power up punch boost it becomes even a threatining sweeper.
 
Okay, so I'm not going to make a nomination in this post - even though I do support quite a lot of the previous nominations - but instead I'm going to focus on something I think is an issue. Recently me and Dibs The Dreamer were talking about potential Pokémon that could rise to S rank and how, even if they didn't rise, they're some of the best Pokémon in the meta; this list included Oricorio-Sensu, Primeape, and Jynx. However, we came across an issue... None of these Pokémon can compete with Skuntank and Mesprit, and I'd never want people to assume they're on the same level as these two, because they just aren't as splashable (at this point I do question if Archeops deserves S rank currently, but that's a post for another day). This raises the issue of do we keep S rank exclusive to these two Pokémon or do we do something to denote that, while other Pokémon could S rank in their own respects, both Mesprit and Skuntank are above and beyond everything else. This comes on to my suggestion of ranking every Pokémon from S to B rank by order of viability. I think, by doing this, that this'll allow some of the best threats in our meta to distinguish themselves in S rank without suggesting that they're on the same level as Mesprit or Skuntank; and if we didn't move them up, then we'd be able to show that they're at least the best of their specific sub-rank.

I do understand that this could make the Viability Rankings more subjective if people are nominating Pokémon up and down inside sub-ranks, so I also propose that the ranking inside sub-ranks is solely handled by our very capable council.
I am not trying to post a one line, but can we not just make Skuntank and Mesprit S+ than make an S Rank tier for Pokemon like Jynx?
 

Megazard

I'll show you the life of the mind!
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
BSS Tour Champion
I am not trying to post a one line, but can we not just make Skuntank and Mesprit S+ than make an S Rank tier for Pokemon like Jynx?
Before VR update, wanted to respond to this. We totally could, but I'd be against it. They just aren't worthy of S+, you actually have to be that good/above everything else to create an S+, and if you think that Mesprit an Skuntank are legit that much better/more centralizing than everything else then....wha?
Anyway, this update started a lil bit ago so only covers before LST's post, no Togedemaru or Kecleon. Those will be included in the next round of voting. This update also mostly has to do with a bunch of discussions council's been having about revamping the lower ranks, so I'll do my best to explain the changes that were never brought up in the thread (i.e. most of them) below.
Gurdurr A+ to A
Stoutland B+ to B
Ludicolo B+ to B
Liepard B to B-
Lurantis B- to B

Sawsbuck C- to C
Arbok C+ to C-
Crustle C+ to C
Granbull C+ to C
Komala C+ to C
Leavanny C+ to C
Munchlax C+ to C
Ninjask C+ to C
Toucannon C+ to C
Vigoroth C+ to C
Cacturne C to C-
Chatot C to C-
Lapras C to C-
Lycanroc-Midnight C to C-
Ninetales C to C-
Regice C to D
Togetic C to D
Grumpig C to D
Exeggutor C to D
Camerupt C- to D
Electrode C- to D
Electivire C- to D
Hippopotas C- to D
Rampardos C- to D
Shiinotic C- to D

Basculin C- to Unranked
Huntail C- to Unranked
Rapidash C- to Uranked
Silvally-Ground C- to Unranked
Bouffalant D to Unranked
Gabite D to Unranked
Lumineon xD to Unranked
Silvally-Dragon D to Unranked
Vullaby D to Unranked
Gurdurr is the most relevant change, and council really just felt that it's been left too high for too long, it was much scarier when offense was more dominant but balanced teams don't really have a problem checking it. It does a lot less offensively than it used to, and its rank should reflect that. As for lower ranks, if you want any in-depth detail I suggest you PM me or ask in discord but most of them were just overinflated. Everything we unranked has seen practically no decent usage and has either a really bad or a total lack of an identifiable niche. C+ had a massive rank disparity where Pokemon like Arbok that see almost no good usage and can fulfill only very specific, awkward roles were right next to things like Mawile or Roselia which also see low usage but are much more effective. Sawsbuck was the only thing to go up because it's become basically a staple on sun, much better than things like Exeggutor (which is just really outclassed on sun and by alolan) or Leafeon.
If a Pokemon you liked was dropped or unranked, there is still hope. We really wanted to do some major VR shifts to start thinning out the lower ranks, but the entire council isn't perfectly familiar with every niche low rank. If you want to nominate something to go back up, get re-ranked, or drop further if you really hate it, that's fine. Replays (and I mean good replays, I've seen some real bad supporting ones recently) are 100% the best way to convince us that a particular Pokemon can put in work, please include them for any rise under C+. It's not required, but it'd go a long way for us voting in favor of your nomination. Personally I could absolutely change my opinion on some of these if I was shown them getting some legitimate success.

There were a few things we went 50/50 on: Absol B+ to B, Drifblim C to C-, and Duosion D to unranked, so if you have an opinion on those then by all means. As always, you can view the votes here. Think that's everything but if I missed a change or an explanation, don't hesitate to shoot me a PM/VM/DM.
 
Before VR update, wanted to respond to this. We totally could, but I'd be against it. They just aren't worthy of S+, you actually have to be that good/above everything else to create an S+, and if you think that Mesprit an Skuntank are legit that much better/more centralizing than everything else then....wha?
Just thought I'd address this, still wanna save my noms till after tier shift. It's clear that Skuntank and Mesprit define the meta, but I wouldn't say they're leagues ahead of everything else (like archeops). However, at the same time, I'd say Jynx and Carracosta are better than the rest of A+ rank. So, what I'm suggesting is an S- rank a la Little Cup's VR. This way, it's representative of Jynx and Carracosta being better than the rest of A+ but also keeps Mesprit and Skuntank at S instead of putting them at S+. Just a thought, but I think this'd be best.
 
First of all, I agree with Rwby that I think it's time we organized the higher ranks. He's said pretty much everything, the only thing I'd add on is that we have ranks like A- and B+, which have quite a lot of mons, so it'll be nice to have them more organized.

And finally, what this post was meant to be about...
Duosion (aka Jake) from D to Unranked: Disagree

With all the indirect damage running around in this meta, its nice to have an ability like Magic Guard. This allows Duosion to much more easily switch in and out in order to check things like Hitmonchan and Weezing without the fear of hazards, or just set up without the fear of being whittled down by Toxic. This is what gives Duosion its niche over other Psychic-types, especially Musharna, who enjoys to run a similar set. It also has its niches over other Magic Guard users, Clefairy and Kadabra, due to its combination of a high natural base Special Attack, base 125, and decent bulk of base 65/50/60, along with the Eviolite. And that's before it manages to get a Calm Mind or Acid Armor up. While I will admit it does face a lot of competitions with all the other Psychics in the tier, and definitely doesn't appreciate all the Dark mons, I do still think its niche in Magic Guard should allow it to keep its spot in the VR's S-Rank D-Rank.

Here's a replay of Duosion not caring about those hazards and winning a game:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-675481262