[3:28pm] RB-Golembat: hey havak
[3:28pm] RB-Golembat: so who here is ready to talk about refining the UU plan
[3:29pm] Havak: Fine by me
[3:32pm] RB-Golembat: anyone else?
[3:32pm] TAY: i'm up for it
[3:33pm] RB-Golembat: the closest we have to a process is this
[3:33pm] RB-Golembat: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1611908&postcount=103
[3:33pm] RB-Golembat: but i would like to flesh it out
[3:33pm] RB-Golembat: and try to find posible problems with it
[3:34pm] sleepypluff left the chat room. (Ping timeout)
[3:41pm] RB-Golembat: hello?
[3:41pm] Venom: man
[3:41pm] Venom: umbasarc is working my nerves
[3:42pm] Bass: how so?
[3:48pm] RB-Golembat: anyone?
[3:50pm] Venom: brazilian on smog uni
[3:51pm] Venom: subwayeverton: whom whether to fight incompatible encoding
[3:51pm] Venom: subwayeverton: whom whether to fight incompatible encoding
[3:51pm] RB-Golembat: chil
[3:53pm] TAY: i think we need to be more specific about: 3) Decide which Pokemon are to be voted on for suspect at the end of the round.
[3:53pm] TAY: who is deciding, and how
[3:54pm] RB-Golembat: hmmm
[3:54pm] RB-Golembat: well, dougs stats can lend a bit towards helping
[3:54pm] RB-Golembat: but i dont want to rely just on that
[3:54pm] TAY: yeah...
[3:54pm] TAY: the stats by themselves are hard to interpret
[3:54pm] TAY: honestly i would weigh anecdotal evidence a lot more heavily
[3:55pm] RB-Golembat: well, there can be two sets of times to meet voting requirements
[3:55pm] TAY: i guess...
[3:55pm] RB-Golembat: 1 to particpate in the discussion
[3:55pm] RB-Golembat: 1 to particapate in the vote
[3:55pm] TAY: but that almost ensures that everything nominated will be banned
[3:55pm] TAY: since no one wll nominate it unless they think it is overpowered...
[3:56pm] TAY: well that's probably too black and white of a description, but it could wind up that way
[3:56pm] RB-Golembat: yeah, i see what you're saying
[3:57pm] TAY: still, the only other option i can see is that we have a selected panel nominate suspects, and then have qualified members vote on them
[3:57pm] TAY: which honestly i would support but it looks bad from a PR perspective
[3:57pm] RB-Golembat: well, the other alternative is bold voting
[3:57pm] RB-Golembat: and we all know how well that has worked
[3:58pm] TAY: hey i liked the bold voting >_>
[3:58pm] TAY: but i guess im the only one lol
[4:00pm] RB-Golembat: well, the hardest part is to find the suspects of the new uu
[4:00pm] RB-Golembat: if we could figure out a reliable way to do that, we would be ready to go
[4:01pm] TAY: well, i would amend that to "OBJECTIVELY find the suspects of UU"
[4:01pm] Venom: well
[4:01pm] Venom: there are some pokemon that are obv too strong for uu
[4:01pm] TAY: really i say let's just pick a metho dand if it doesn't work well we're all the wiser next time
[4:01pm] Venom: that are clear
[4:02pm] TAY: we've been putting this off for way too long lol
[4:02pm] TAY: and if any major problem jumps up, it isn't like we're retarded enough to say "NO STICK WITH THE PROCESS"
[4:02pm] TAY: let's juts fucking do it lol
[4:02pm] RB-Golembat: just like in the garchomp test
[4:03pm] RB-Golembat: how deoxy-s was added as suspect in the middle
[4:03pm] TAY: that was a horrible choice
[4:03pm] Venom: it wa smostly colin influence
[4:03pm] Venom: iirc
[4:03pm] TAY: well we shouldn't have done it regardless
[4:03pm] Venom: true that
[4:03pm] Venom: but then again
[4:03pm] Venom: the official server was the only battling server
[4:04pm] TAY: yeah...
[4:04pm] Venom: for all of pokemon players
[4:04pm] Venom: for the most part
[4:04pm] Havak: Anyway, RBG, I'm pretty much fine with the current "process"..
[4:04pm] TAY: even then, we shouldnt have voted on only garchomp
[4:04pm] Havak: It just depends if everyone else can agree on it
[4:04pm] RB-Golembat: havak, we just need to find problems
[4:04pm] RB-Golembat: and the "identifying pokemon to vote on"
[4:04pm] TAY: well i still think we need to figure how we're doing step 3
[4:05pm] Havak: Well, all we need is a discussion thread I think.. I'd prefer it to be in PR, but I guess Metagame Analysis could be useful enough
[4:05pm] TAY: and then we just sort of come to a general consensus?
[4:05pm] Havak: People will nominate suspects, and we'll discuss the Pokémon brought up the most I guess incompatible encoding
[4:06pm] TAY: i guess that's how we chose all the previous suspects lol
[4:06pm] TAY: ok i support that
[4:06pm] TAY: does anyone see a problem with havak's suggestion?
[4:06pm] Havak: The only problem is that BL is so huge, it can't really work the same way as testing Uber Suspects in OU lol
[4:07pm] TAY: yeah
[4:07pm] Havak: So taking 1 at a time is silly obviously
[4:07pm] TAY: one at a time is hardly an option
[4:07pm] Havak: This is the only way to reduce BL
[4:07pm] Havak: And at a later date
[4:07pm] Havak: If we have second thoughts
[4:07pm] RB-Golembat: makes sense
[4:07pm] Havak: We can do the one at a time process
[4:07pm] Havak: By dropping things back in
[4:08pm] RB-Golembat: honestly, i would not be opposed to having a thread in stark
[4:08pm] • RB-Golembat provided it is HEAVILY moderated
[4:08pm] Venom: ^^^
[4:08pm] TAY: isnt that the same as a PR thread lol
[4:08pm] Havak: I'm not sure about that
[4:08pm] Havak: Though if we have a vote in IS, and people agree to it in Stark then so be it lol
[4:08pm] RB-Golembat: honestly, it is foolish to expect that someone in stark isnt going to make a thread to disucss the new uu
[4:09pm] RB-Golembat: id rather a trusted badge member start it
[4:09pm] Havak: Well, IMO
[4:09pm] Havak: If they do start a thread
[4:09pm] Havak: We can look at that
[4:09pm] RB-Golembat: then some random person i have no about
[4:09pm] Havak: and possibly "promote" people from that discussion if we think they'll add to it
[4:09pm] Havak: So they can discuss it with us, I dunno
[4:09pm] Havak: I just hate threads getting really clogged with none sense
[4:10pm] RB-Golembat: yeah
[4:10pm] Havak: I don't think mods will want to delete about 80% of the content continually
[4:10pm] RB-Golembat: yeah
[4:11pm] RB-Golembat: well, it cant really be in PR
[4:11pm] RB-Golembat: since chaos and misty said that is going to die soon
[4:11pm] TAY: yeah...
[4:11pm] Havak: But if that's what the majority of Badgeholders+ want
[4:11pm] Havak: Then I'll go with it
[4:12pm] TAY: well the stark thread will likely exist no matter how we construct the process...
[4:12pm] TAY: so im not sure it's worth putting a lot of thought into
[4:12pm] Havak: Yeh, but whether we take any notice of it is another matter lol
[4:12pm] Havak: There's bound to be plenty of good discussion there obviously
[4:13pm] Havak: But I dunno, I just get the feeling it'll turn to shit lol
[4:13pm] Havak: Brb
[4:13pm] RB-Golembat: well, we can't say "don't make a thread dicussing the UU test"
[4:13pm] Venom: does anyone else think LO on CM Golduck is an ok option
[4:13pm] RB-Golembat: unless people discus it in the announcement thread
[4:14pm] TAY: yeah the announcement thread works
[4:14pm] TAY: like "post your experiences here"
[4:14pm] TAY: that seemed to go not-terribly for deoe and shaymin
[4:15pm] • RB-Golembat agreed
[4:15pm] TAY: certainly better than the wobb and chomp threads though lol
[4:15pm] RB-Golembat: ok, im updating my post right no
[4:16pm] RB-Golembat: ok, here is a suggestion
[4:17pm] RB-Golembat: in the current suspect vote, people can vote and there votes, in theory, can not be questionedright?
[4:17pm] TAY: yeah
[4:18pm] RB-Golembat: so what if, instead of voting by poll, we have people name the pokemon they think should be moved to BL with just a small bit of reasoning
[4:18pm] RB-Golembat: cause frankly, just listing the pokemon to move to BL wont be ebough
[4:18pm] TAY: that's just like the bold voting...
[4:19pm] TAY: ugh
[4:19pm] RB-Golembat: well, not the way im seeing it
[4:19pm] TAY: explain...
[4:19pm] RB-Golembat: how to explain it.....
[4:19pm] TAY: lol
[4:19pm] Havak: Lol
[4:19pm] Havak: I think I get it
[4:19pm] RB-Golembat: help me then
[4:19pm] Havak: But it is similar to Bold Voting still lol
[4:20pm] TAY: well how is it different than just having a discussion thread and then a no-questions-asked vote?
[4:20pm] Havak: This is why I want to leave it to BadgeHolders+ for now
[4:21pm] TAY: so it will be in IS?
[4:21pm] Havak: There can be a discussion thread in Stark, but for the most party, it's meaningless
[4:21pm] TAY: I think the discussion should be public...
[4:21pm] RB-Golembat: hmmm
[4:21pm] TAY: why are we axing PR >_>
[4:21pm] Havak: If we can keep PR, then PR
[4:21pm] Havak: If not
[4:21pm] Havak: Metagame Analysis is the place
[4:21pm] Havak: Because that is BadgeHolders+ currently
[4:21pm] TAY: that isnt public
[4:21pm] RB-Golembat: yeah, that seems like a good place
[4:21pm] RB-Golembat: its just not well known about
[4:21pm] Havak: It is public isn't it?
[4:21pm] TAY: MA? no
[4:22pm] RB-Golembat: yeah
[4:22pm] TAY: at least i didnt think so...
[4:22pm] Havak: It's only recently been BadgeHolders+
[4:22pm] RB-Golembat: anyone can see it
[4:22pm] Havak: To post
[4:22pm] TAY: oh
[4:22pm] Havak: Everyone can view
[4:22pm] Venom: anyone can see MA
[4:22pm] TAY: hmmm
[4:22pm] Havak: I couldn't even post there until recently
[4:22pm] Venom: and PR
[4:22pm] RB-Golembat: same here havak
[4:22pm] TAY: well a lot of people dont know about it
[4:22pm] Havak: It was changed
[4:22pm] Havak: Well
[4:22pm] TAY: we should make it a bit more obvious to average users
[4:22pm] Havak: There will obviously be News Article
[4:22pm] Havak: and Stark thread / announcemant on the forums
[4:22pm] RB-Golembat: i think, that a link metagame analysis should be included
[4:22pm] Havak: Yes
[4:22pm] Havak: That's what i mean
[4:22pm] TAY: well if most people are like me, the go straight to the forums
[4:23pm] RB-Golembat: i would like to see MA a subforum of Stark
[4:23pm] Havak: Enough people will see the news
[4:23pm] Havak: and a thread will be in Stark
[4:23pm] Havak: and an announcement in the forums too..
[4:23pm] TAY: ok with a stark thread that will be transparent enough
[4:23pm] Havak: It won't got un-noticed
[4:23pm] TAY: OK ^__^
[4:24pm] RB-Golembat: it will need a link to MA in the pos
[4:25pm] TAY: ok so I think we have a method down for step 3...
[4:25pm] TAY: am i correct in assuming we will adopt havak's suggestion from before?
[4:25pm] RB-Golembat: which one?
[4:26pm] Havak: So, for step 3, it's "Discuss the current metagame development in the Metagame Analysis Forum. People will discuss which Pokémon are the most problematic, and at the end of the current testing period, the most noted Pokémon will be taken into account." incompatible encoding
[4:26pm] Havak: Or something along those lines..
[4:27pm] • RB-Golembat added
[4:28pm] Havak: It should be obvious if nearly every members comes out with "Shaymin has to be considered BL" etc
[4:28pm] TAY: and when you write "5) Remove pokemon that have been voted on." im assuming you still intend to keep the pokemon which are not deemed overpowered...
[4:28pm] RB-Golembat: yeah, thats what i mean
[4:29pm] RB-Golembat: actually, what do you all think of 2a?
[4:29pm] RB-Golembat: is it really neccesary?
[4:29pm] TAY: yes
[4:29pm] TAY: it is vital
[4:30pm] RB-Golembat: how do we determine that though?
[4:30pm] Havak: I actually don't think it's needed
[4:30pm] TAY: well it should be obvious
[4:30pm] RB-Golembat: i think that we should have it, but will not need it
[4:31pm] TAY: like, if we were suspect testing rayquaza in OU, we wouldnt need 6 weeks to determine it's status, and after a little while the ladder would get pointless and frustrating, and people would lose interest
[4:32pm] TAY: that step is just in case something really obvious comes along
[4:32pm] Havak: Hmm, I guess
[4:32pm] TAY: it might not
[4:32pm] TAY: but it would be nice to have that to fall back on
[4:32pm] TAY: without amending the process mid-way
[4:32pm] RB-Golembat: yeah, that would not look good
[4:32pm] Havak: The the argument to counter that though could be something like
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[4:33pm] Havak: We'll get more stats and information to back up any future queiries about said Pokémon if we just allow it for the remainder of the testing period incompatible encoding
[4:33pm] Aeolus: what are you talking about
[4:33pm] Havak: But yeh, I'm not really fussed on that, I guess it's another majority decision
[4:34pm] Havak: New UU, the process
[4:34pm] Havak: Finalizing it
[4:34pm] Havak: Hopefully, anyway
[4:34pm] Aeolus: is the process still to drop every BL into the game?
[4:34pm] TAY: well if the pokemon is really as broken as i suggested, it's pretty unlikely that it would be up for a UU suspct test in which those stats would be relevant
[4:34pm] Havak: Yes
[4:34pm] Aeolus: do we realize that is just going to result in a renaming of tiers?
[4:34pm] Aeolus: BL -> UU
[4:34pm] Aeolus: UU -> NU
[4:35pm] TAY: BL will still exist...
[4:35pm] TAY: it will just likely get smaller
[4:35pm] Havak: Yeh
[4:35pm] Aeolus: ok
[4:35pm] Aeolus: I don't care about UU much
[4:35pm] Aeolus: so I'm not going to fuss about it
[4:35pm] Aeolus: I just don't think it is a good process
[4:35pm] Havak: Heh
[4:35pm] RB-Golembat: well, we are trying to iron it our right now
[4:36pm] Havak: Well to be honest
[4:36pm] Havak: The majority of BLs are, IMO, very close in terms of "power"
[4:36pm] Havak: So it's a lot more difficult to just say what we'll get rid of without testing
[4:36pm] • RB-Golembat agreed
[4:36pm] Havak: than it would be with Ubers and OU
[4:37pm] Havak: Which is the only reason I'm up for dropping all BLs in
[4:38pm] TAY-hime joined the chat room.
[4:38pm] Havak: While there are a few Pokémon I'd expect to do better than others, I can't really just go out on a limb and say what we should put in UU and what we shouldn't incompatible encoding
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[4:41pm] TAY left the chat room. (Ping timeout)
[4:41pm] TAY joined the chat room.
[4:41pm] TAY was granted voice by ChanServ.
[4:41pm] RB-Golembat: welcome back tay
[4:41pm] TAY: stupid random internet shutdown
[4:42pm] Havak: Right so, every "suspect" we fish out from the discussion thread, will have their own "BL/UU" voting thread for step 4
[4:42pm] Havak: And anything voted BL will be removed for step 5
[4:42pm] TAY: what >_>
[4:43pm] Havak: And then we repeat?
[4:43pm] TAY: that will take forever
[4:43pm] Havak: It'll all be done at the same time first of all
[4:43pm] Havak: We could end up with 15 suspects from Round 1 of testing
[4:43pm] Havak: And have to vote of them all at once..
[4:43pm] TAY: ok..
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[4:44pm] Havak: But each Pokémon would need its own thread incompatible encoding
[4:44pm] Havak: For the yes/no vote thing
[4:44pm] RB-Golembat: yeah
[4:45pm] Havak: So that's basically it, the finalized process, it just needs a majority agreement / Admin approval to start, as well as Doug changing the ban list
[4:45pm] RB-Golembat: yeah
[4:45pm] Havak: So that's pretty much job done as far as I can see
[4:45pm] RB-Golembat: well
[4:45pm] RB-Golembat: the majority of RB, TAY and Havak
[4:45pm] RB-Golembat: i wouldnt call that a majority?
[4:45pm] TAY: yeah!
[4:45pm] TAY: best majority!
[4:46pm] Havak: Well if people have anything to say, they can comment on it
[4:46pm] TAY: hey what ever happened with the Arceus thing?
[4:46pm] Havak: You just need to post that because that is for now the final process