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VGC 14 Viability Rankings (outdated)

Discussion in 'VGC' started by Professor Birch, Mar 23, 2014.

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  1. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky

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    Vivillon is more likely D rank if that really, there is nothing it can do that something else can do much better. A Bug- and Flying-typing is horrendous, it's hit for super effective damage by Rock, Flying, Electric, and Fire some of the most common offensive types at the moment. Base 89 Speed is painfully slow for something this frail. A Timid Hurricane, there is no way this thing can use a Modest nature effectively as it is already outsped by base 100s, doesn't even guarantee an OHKO against a 0 / 0 Venusuar. I do not think a Choice Scarf is really the best idea, Choice Scarf Sleep powder is the only use I can think for it. Salamence the most common Choice Scarf Pokemon can OHKO with a Timid Fire Blast. For Vivillon to function at all the team needs to be built specifically for it, not something you want from a "support" Pokemon.


    Rotom-Heat is definitely A rank, it can take on Grass- and Steel-types that Rotom-Wash can't beat like Ferrothorn, Gourgiest, and even Aegislash really. It can get away with running more a lot more physical bulk, quite needingly to allow it to survive multiple Rock Slides. It is also able to run a lot of Special Attack to OHKO Aegislash in Shield Forme.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  2. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    I have updated the definitions to further fit the metagame. What is up with people trying to oversell Vivillon, lol? This thing is going at D-Rank maximum and I really do not feel it deserves it.

    Edit: Rotom-W to A, Mega Kangaskhan to S
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  3. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I agree with Vivillon D rank. It's purpose is a fast sleep spreader. It's second in speed only to Jumpluff, who has zero offense capabilities. It pairs well with Mega Kang, as Fake Out can help Vivillon land a Sleep Powder, and sleep helps Mega Kang sweep and set up a FuP. However, as already said, Vivillon has serious flaws in its horrid defensive typing (it is reliant on Focus Sash to take >1 hit), speed that whilst ok is bad for something so frail reliant on it, and only hits decently hard, though an accurate Hurricane is pretty good. It hase use and it's not bad enough for E rank, but it's difficult to justify its use. The D rank description fits it perfectly.
  4. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Vivillon to D-Rank
  5. tennisace

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    So lets discuss some actually viable Pokemon because right now there's like nothing actually ranked and I didn't even see any Vivillon used by crappy players let alone anyone decent when I was at the Mass regional.

    Aegislash: S-rank. A ton of people are using Aegislash right now, and for good reason: it's bulky as all hell but still has a ton of power behind it. It checks Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Pinsir, Mega Mawile, Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard X, Amoonguss, etc etc etc. King's Shield is such a good move that a lot of Smeargle even forgo Protect for it, since the -2 Attack is key to fending off things like Mega Tyranitar / Mega Kanga w/Crunch / other stuff. The standard set of Substitute / Flash Cannon / Shadow Ball / King's Shield can totally hold its own in the metagame, since there aren't many Pokemon that resist both moves. If standard sets aren't your thing, it gets some slightly more niche options that can support your team if you need it. Wide Guard / Destiny Bond are notable egg moves, Wide Guard in particular being useful to get around Earthquakes / Heat Waves. HP Ice is a niche option but it can surprise Garchomp and Salamence because Aegislash can easily tank one Earthquake or Flamethrower respectively. Physical Aegislash is a little less useful than special but Shadow Sneak is a cool option to pick off some weakened Pokemon, and Sacred Sword absolutely wrecks Tyranitar. All in all, it's a great Pokemon that has a ton of utility on many types of teams. I could continue to go on with all its options, but I think I made my point.

    Tyranitar: S-rank. Great power, great bulk, decent enough typing that gets the job done, covers weaknesses nicely with cover options. This thing is super versatile: you can use anything from a special attacking set with Choice Scarf to a somewhat more bulky attacking set to an almost defensively bulky set that still has enough power to wreck frail Pokemon. This isn't even considering Mega Tyranitar, which is a whole different animal (fun fact: 0 hp / 4 def Mega Tyranitar survived an Escavalier Megahorn with 12 hp left and then still had enough bulk to take a Mega Manectric Snarl). There are very few teams that get worse by adding a Tyranitar, unless it's like a dedicated Rain team.
    Magcargo 2 likes this.
  6. klvkboom

    klvkboom

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    Azumarill: A. In terms of threat potential, Azumarill is one of the most dangerous Pokes if ever given a free turn. The threat of a T1 Belly Drum means players will need to put pressure immediately or else get swept single-handedly by +6 Aqua Jets. Even after a BD+sitrus berry, at 75% HP it's still reasonably tanky and will survive most hits, and while doing so it'll OHKO most of the metagame in the process. Belly Drum also has the interesting niche of fixing any Intimidates that have been thrown on Azu.

    Its other sets can often come as a surprise if you mistake it for a BD set. Choice Band, Assault Vest, Encore (although incredibly hard to breed) are viable options, and will definitely make an impact if used properly. Azu also has a very powerful typing belonging in two very powerful and substandard cores, Fairy/Steel/Dragon, and Fire/Water/Grass. Not to mention being a non-Mega and a reasonable replacement for MMaw. This makes fitting Azu on your team very easily.

    Mega Venusaur: A-. Albeit taking away that precious mega slot for your team, MVenu is similar to Aegislash in that it is an incredible checkmate against certain compositions. MVenu has no problems dealing with Rain, Sun (provided you have Charizard in check), and many Pokes within the standard typing cores. With Synthesis it can even shake off powerful moves like Draco Meteor and Overheat (from Rotom-H) and survive further damage because of their stat drops. Its biggest enemy of course is Talonflame and the top 3 Mega Pokes, MKang, MZardY, MMaw, but with proper support, those threats being gone means that MVenu will have no problem tanking hits from the majority of the metagame.

    MVenu is commonly seen as a 2nd Mega Poke for teams. This is because you'll mainly want to use it against certain compositions that would otherwise give your main strategy trouble. It also has issues of requiring a somewhat "slower" game to shine, so against heavy offensive compositions you'll have some trouble staying healthy.
  7. Volty

    Volty formerly TeraVoltage

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    Pyroar should DEFINITELY be ranked, and let me explain why. Pyroar has a pretty good speed teir, outspeeding most of the meta. It can slaughter Aegislash/ Mawile/ Steel Types and can counter nonscarf Garchomp with HP ice and Overheat respectively. On top of that it has a great spread move that does a surprising amount of damage Via Hyper Voice. Its main weakness is that its frail, but that can be gotten around with minor team support such as fake out/ Rage powder. In my opinion seeing its success overseas, and in my own personal useage. It is a very Anti-Meta pokemon that can be a quick fix to solve a couple problems.

    At least A- rank imo
  8. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    You're really overselling Pyroar's utility. If your opponent doesn't bring any of the Pokemon Pyroar easily beats, then what? It doesn't do much at all. This isn't even mentioning the fact that it loses to Scarf / Sash / Yache Garchomp, one of the main Pokemon Pyroar is supposed to check. The other issue is that most good players know what Pyroar does by now; you aren't surprising anybody with it. It lacks priority, is still outsped by a lot of things in the metagame, and yes, it is quite frail. I could ramble more but Pyroar is really a C-rank threat: if your opponent is totally unprepared and you babysit it and keep it away from stray Rock Slides / Earthquakes, then yes it can do decently. It's nowhere near A-rank, which is where metagame staples are, not niche options.

    Edit: while I'm here I'll second Rotom-H for A-rank: it's the best Fire-type Pokemon not named Charizard and it checks a bunch of Pokemon that Rotom-W has trouble with.
    Karxrida likes this.
  9. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Ive done some calcs in the past and although it may seem good on paper, it doesnt live up to expectations in practice. C is the highest I would go with it.
  10. Professor Birch

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    Rotom-H is definitely deserving of A-Rank

    Both T-Tar and Mega T-Tar are total monsters and deserve that S-Rank
  11. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    klvkboom there is no +/- in here, so I'm going to have to recommend Mega Venusaur for B-rank.

    Reasoning: It is bulky as all hell, yes, but it doesn't provide nearly as much direct support to teammates that Amoonguss does. Amoonguss gets more reliable healing (Regenerator > Synthesis in a metagame saturated by Tyranitar), a better Sleep move (Spore >>>Sleep Powder), isn't in that awkward speed tier where you're too fast to help deal with Trick Room but too slow to deal with offense, and gets Rage Powder to direct attacks away from partners. It's a good Pokemon because it is bulky, has a helpful ability, and is pretty strong, but it's "outclassed" by Amoonguss.
  12. Magcargo 2

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    I'm not a VGC player, but I feel that ranking each Pokemon individually isn't a good idea. The purpose of this thread is to provide a useful resource for newer players to look at in order to understand the metagame better. We really need an initial list because the earlier we have a list, the more beginners can understand the metagame. Individually ranking each Pokemon from scratch would take much more time and effort from the staff and would make it much harder for beginners to understand the metagame.
    Karxrida, Darkmalice and mang0Master like this.
  13. Volty

    Volty formerly TeraVoltage

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    Whatever I guess its your thread, but you did not address any of the points I made, provide any of these "Calcs" or specify what exactly you calced... It does more then enough dammage to do what it needs to do, unless you decied it was bad for not being able to ohko Florges or something, i got no clue. But I won't argue this not really worth it tbh. Was just a bit confused.
  14. mang0Master

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    I agree Macargo 2 here. Coming from the OU forum, I've been having a tough time getting into VGC format and it is taking a long time just to get some viability ranks down. Why not do a quick preliminary viability ranking based on usage stats and go from there?
  15. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Ok, I will make a preliminary ranking for some important Pokemon. If you want to learn, this isnt really the way to go. It will be more of a guideline but watching replays and looking at team analyses, like those on Nugget Bridge, can be very helpful.
  16. Chenkovsky

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    He's saying he is aware of the damage that Pyroar able of doing, its ability to OHKO both Aegislash and Garchomp namely. However, when actually used it will often fall short of its expectations. Mostly this is because of how frail it is and a metagame filled with Tyranitars and specially defensive Rotom-Ws. It is also largely outclassed by Mega Manectric.

    I think that tournament usage stats should be used over the official usage stats as the official usage stats only give you top twelve and don't show what Pokemon are actually doing well at tournaments.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  17. klvkboom

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    Definitely a good point there. However I should point out that even though in some cases where MVenu is "outclassed", he excels in other areas that Amoonguss cannot.

    MVenu isn't primarily a tank. He's designed to have respectable damage and be naturally bulky due to type and ability. His form of pressure is his ability to do both. Amoonguss' main strength is support through the use of redirection and sleep, and he does this by just being tanky. Against certain compositions where MVenu excels in, Amoonguss' best option is supporting his team while tanking hits. MVenu can handle certain threats better and be a huge threat against certain teams, essentially locking down many games on his own. Amoonguss on the other hand cannot apply similar pressure but instead focuses on supporting the team to deal damage. Synthesis under Sand/Rain is also a bit redundant, because under those conditions you'll be healing considerably with Giga Drain against those weather setters anyway.

    On another note, for TTar, it's hard for me to say he is deserving of S rank in today's meta. His strengths are there sure, but he takes too much punishment from the most common Pokes. Nearly more than half of the common Pokes have a SE attack against him, and even though he is reasonably bulky, being 2HKO'd is still not something to boast. He sits at a reasonably low speed tier meaning he's prone to common WoW users (even standard special variants are hurt hard from burn due to the residual damage of Burn + LO) as well as needing to tank most of these SE hits before he even moves. That being said though, against certain Pokes (i.e. ones that don't have a SE attack) he does his job respectably well, walling Salalmence, Hydreigon, Talonflame, Gengar, Pyroar, MManec, and Rotom-H with little issue. But against the rest of the meta he has some huge issues tanking. I would have to say A rank due to this glaring weakness to common attacks, but he does have his strengths being a thorn to a good amount of special attackers.
  18. SuperMegaUltra

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    I nominate Bisharp for B rank.

    It's one of few physical attackers that benefits from Intimidate thanks to Defiant, giving it a nice +1. It checks the majority of Fairies in the meta as well as Ageislash and T-Tar . It gets Stab priority in Sucker Punch which demolishes threats such as Salamence, Talonflame and Gengar, making up for its sub-par speed. It's real downside is it's typing which gives it weaknesses to common attacks such as Heat Wave, EQ and Mach Punch. IT also relies on the opponent bringing an Intimidate user for it to dish out some insane damage. Like most physical attackers, it doesn't like to take a WoW to the face either.
  19. Chenkovsky

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    I would hold nominations until Pokemasta has a chance to make a preliminary list.
  20. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    So pretty much, I will make sure that the top 25(maybe 50) pokemon in usage will be ranked in a general area of where they belong. From that point, you may discuss on what is there and add other pokemon you wish. I should have this done today.
  21. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Ok I am done with a very preliminary list. Hopefully this can help spur discussion.
  22. klvkboom

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    Very good start for a preliminary list. There are a few small issues of course. I'll try to explain them the best I can.

    Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gyarados usage-wise are very rare, and one could say almost non-existent. Garde is most often in her normal form since her perks from Mega Evolving are minuscule at most, and Gyara loses a lot from the type change of his Mega. Both are deserving of A rank though, but not their megas.

    In terms of Fairies, I personally have to say that Azumarill is the biggest contender for being "universal" and strongest. Based off the statistics of recent tourneys, Azu has spiked considerably, even taking the spot from Gardevoir and Mawile. I've already mentioned it in a previous post, so I won't really go much into details, but I strongly believe Azu is deserving of the A rank.

    For Tyranitar I've posted my thoughts on his questionable S rank as well, but I'll leave it for now for further discussion. But I do think he's more deserving for A rank

    I'll see if I can post some more nominations up later as well. There are many other Pokes not mentioned that do have a good impact in the meta, but good job so far Pokemasta77
  23. mac1275

    mac1275

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    I would like to nominate ninetails for D rank. It isnt the best sun setter in the tier, but it does have a niche of being able to set up sun for charizard x and does allow for more turns of sun with heat rock.
  24. Hobo Joe

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    Ninetails isn't even allowed in VGC
  25. mac1275

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    Wait why not? Are friend safari Pokemon not allowed this year? If so I need to get rid of my hitmontop.
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