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Discussion in 'Past Format Discussion' started by Professor Birch, Mar 23, 2014.
If I knew there were sub tiers I too would say B-.
Just a knitpick, but you are missing party sprites for Meowstic and Vivillon.
Also, Char-Y for S rank as this thing rips holes in teams with Heat Wave, Solar Beam and Overheat and, while the Rock Slide weakness really hurts, it is something which is easily overcome with Protect and/or enough defensive investment (for un-STAB ones). Wide Guard and Intimidate also work, but it isn't support which it is at all reliant on (unlike the rest of A rank which are semi-reliant on something, albiet (albiet? *checks Google for the spelling* *corrects himself psuedo-verbally* "albeit") different things).
Problem: Rocks are too easy to obtain, and rocks are his main weakness. Pick one up from the ground and throw it at him. Down he goes.
I would still have to argue for Wiggly to be of C rank (maybe C+ if there were sub tiers). My reasoning for this are as follows.
C-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that can be effective given a certain situation but otherwise will fall behind compared to higher ranked Pokemon. Other than this, the opponents team needs to be completely unable to deal with it for it to become a threat.
Wiggly needs to abuse a weakness of your opponent (weakness of an Intimidate reliance), otherwise she is outperformed by Garde in almost every single way. This essentially means that your opponent is in control of your Wiggly's success. They control when they want to use Intimidate and as such there will be times where you'll be sitting around with no boost. This Competitive boost is the "certain situation" that Wiggly tries to achieve if being used, resulting in the Poke only being effectively utilized when you're certain you can get the +2. This also hurts the Poke's consistency as you rely heavily on your opponent to give you the boost.
The second part of C rank states that your opponent needs to have a big weakness to a Poke in order for that Poke to be considered a threat. In Wiggly's case, those situations are primarily if and only if she can achieve the boost (she not that big of a threat at +0). However, against certain leads Wiggly can gain this sort of advantage, such as an opposing Mence, Scrafty, or Gyara, and in these scenarios she can actually gain some heavy momentum against some of these potential leads. Again though, your opponent is in control of what they send out, and if they know well about Wiggly then they'll play around it. Of course, one can argue that you can abuse this to your advantage, but more often you'll find yourself wishing you had +2 as opposed to deterring Intimidate.
Lastly is the predictability of the Poke. VGC is heavy on how well you can predict your opponent and Wiggly is quite easy to read but more importantly easy to control. For starters she's most likely seen to run Assault Vest in order to make certain damage calcs favorable, as well as to rival Garde's bulk. This means no support moves (i.e. Protect), no offensive boosting item (Specs/Scarf), and compounded with her lack of speed and priority it means Wiggly is easily controlled. Even though many VGC Pokes are "predictable" they still have access to offensive presence that forces your opponent to play defensively. Wiggly only really does this at +2, but only if your opponent can't KO it. Even then she'll fall easily to double targeting.
Wigglytuff for C-rank. Without the +2, it isn't that impressive.
I'm not going to lie; it is better at deterring Intimidate than Bisharp. BUT Bisharp has more use outside of it, and you really misaccurately represent Bisharp's skill. Salamence with Fire Blast? It gets OHKOed by Sucker Punch first. Mega Manetric? OHKOed too by Sucker Punch. Gyarados checking Bisharp with TWave? You'll take a lot of damage from Night Slash to the point that Gyarados can easily be KOed by an ally. You could have at least mentioned Mega Gyarados, who resists both of Bisharp's STABs. Mawile and Scarfty do also take a lot of damage before being able to attack, which combined with an ally, can KO it before they KO Bisharp.
Wigglytuff works when
-it's anti-Intimidate support deters Intimidate to support deadly Pokemon like Mega Kang. Think of it like Ninetales, a bad Pokemon, who had the potential to make strong Pokemon even better
-it gets a Competitive boost
-surprise value, which was only a case when Ray used it. That is now gone
It's not as effective as Bisharp and Gardevoir (Gard is much harder to play around than Wigglytuff - better stats, better movepool, doesn't need Assault vest for good bulk and offensive proweness).
Also I looked through the first 4 or something of your replays, and none of them impressed me. They all involved opponent leading an Intimidate Pokemon against a team with Wigglytuff; they got what they deserved. The first was a Manetric Mega evolving knowing that Wigglytuff was on the field...
If I'm honest as a learning resource this pretty useless right now as only 23 Pokemon are listed as of now, Pokemasta, I think you need to add at least the top 40 and any other viable Pokemon below that point. This will not only make the resource more usefull, but also gives the thread a broader source of discussion for reclassification.
Agreeing with the post above here, it really does help the C and D tiers as well, because of the lack of Pokémon there at this moment in time.
I'd stick Diggersby around the B-/C+ rank. While it is slower and not as bulky as Garchomp and the like, it's otherwise great offensive typing and gargantuan attack stat is definitely something need to be considered. It's Earthquake is definitely one of the most powerful moves in the game, and with it having great synergy with Levitate users, particularly Gengar and Rotom-Wash, makes it not too hard to use once it gets onto the field. It also gets a Priority STAB move in Quick Attack, meaning it can be used to finish off weakened threats, as well as a boosting move in Swords Dance, however it can be a little bit risky with its somewhat low defenses. Pairing this with an Intimidate user is a good idea to help it boost up while your opponent tries to switch-out and when Diggersby isn't being targeted that turn, but that's just from my experience with it. A strong Special Attacker is great as well, being able to hit the physical walls for bigger damage, and being able to support Diggerby in wall-breaking and/or sweeping. As a result, Mega Manectric is a great example, as not only can it scare Salamence (which normally carry Intimidate), however it's high base speed can really help it take down threats such as Garchomp, Greninja (although without the Mega Evolution, is slower), (Mega) Gyarados, and the like. Tailwind is a good suggestion as well, making up for Diggersby's lack of speed without a Choice Scarf equipped. Smeargle could also be utilised, thanks to it's Dark Void attack, as well as King's Shield, which can help force switches, Tailwind for a boost in speed, as well as Transform for even more power, however this sometimes can be hard to pull-off. Just expressing my opinions on this.
I've also got some thoughts about Gothitelle etc. later, however adding the Top 40 first would probably help and people will be able to benefit from this more.
It's the 22nd of May and the list still hasn't been updated?!?!?!?!?!?! There be confusion VGC in.
It's because this is Smogon, and Smogon plays by its own rules. People who frequent this site are mainly Smogon players, so even if people do show some interest in VGC for X amount of time, it's not like business here is gonna show a decent amount of VGC interest. It's like asking where the Asians at in South Africa.
People are busy, and updating the OP for a thread which isn't particularly active probably isn't a high priority, making comments like this aren't going to make it happen any faster. Smogon is primarily about the Smogon rule set, however saying that people don't care about VGC is completely inaccurately Smogon users frequently do well at official tournaments. The fact that the Smogon VGC forums are less active is because there are more focused sites like Nugget Bridge. Also South Africa's fourth largest ethnic group is Indian/Asian.
I was more along the lines of "Since this is Smogon.com, most people here are focused on the Smogon ruleset". People here "in general" aren't going to have too much interest in VGC because the point of this site is for the Smogon rule set. I'd say the reverse on Nugget Bridge, too.
Like I said, it's like asking where the Asians at in South Africa. But I guess it's more like asking where the white people at in Nigeria (because at least I saw some there, and there are some dudes that play VGC here).
I think the reason that Pokemasta hasn't updated the OP is this:
He wants people to discuss Pokemon, and then rank Pokemon based on the discussions. Like what is being done with OU Victory Road
I disagree with this approach. Because, simply put, there hasn't been any discussion for a while, and discussion was always slow on this thread. Discussion being slow is probably due to not many VGC keen players coming here or posting here (more likely the latter - a lot of VGC players look at Smogon). Also of note, OU Victory Road viability ranking discussion has also been slow recently.
So we may as well just have a list set up without discussion. That way, newbies get to see their list for learning, as learning by discussion isn't going to happen when there isn't discussion. Some people may also argue for changes for newly ranked Pokemon too, so there will be temporary boost with discussion when the thread is updated.
Im looking at some stuff now and will be updating this soon.
nah i'll redo it