1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

VGC 14 Viability Rankings (outdated)

Discussion in 'VGC' started by Professor Birch, Mar 23, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hobo Joe

    Hobo Joe

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2007
    Messages:
    447
    Not part of the Kalos Pokedex. Friend safari exclusive Pokemon are not allowed as they're not present in the Kalos Pokedex. So yeah, both Ninetails and Hitmontop are not VGC legal this year.
  2. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,522
    I agree with the Gardevoir, Azumarill and Ttar comments - I'm unsure about Gyarados.

    Azumarill is one of those Pokemon with a great combination of typing, bulk, and power. It can either hit hard straight off the bat or be a deadly Belly Drum sweeper, whilst simultaneously functioning as an excellent answer to some top tier threats like Tyranitar, Salamence, and Garchomp. It's bulk, typing and priority helps overcome one of its largest issues, its low Speed. It also has a gimmicky role as a Perish Song user with Sap Sipper.

    Tyranitar is one of those Pokemon that works very well but has solid counters (Azumarill, any Fighting-type), and many more checks - Mega Kang (it's PuP bait), Mega Mawile, Gyarados, Rotom-W. Tyranitar is also easier to handle once you know its set, which is relevant in a best of 3 metagame. For example, physical Ttars can be counter by Garchomp. It's great but not quite S-rank - A+ if there were subranks.

    Regarding Pyroar, send it to C-rank. It has a niche, but if you know what it's capable off, you can fend it off easily due to its poor bulk (bad enough that CB Talonflame has an almost guaranteed OHKO against it). Common Pokemon like Ttar, Mega Zard, Rotom-W, Gyarados and more don't have problems against it. Also for something using HP Ice for Dragon-types, it loses to Scarf Salamence with Hydro Pump - I know Hydro Pump not that common now compared to Stone Edge, but like Garchomp, it can still beat Pyroar with the right set.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
  3. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    325
    I would like to see Pokemon and their Mega Pokemon to be ranked together, as they are the same Pokemon. Many Pokemon are only viable because of their Mega Evolutions, see Kangaskhan, Mawile, and both Charizards, these Pokemon's regular formes are unlikely ever to be ranked. Pokemon with both a viable regular formes like Tyranitar, and Gyarados are of course more complex, however, it wouldn't be impossible to clarify which rank they would both be:
    • [​IMG] Mega Venusaur (Regular Forme: C Rank)
    This would be an example, the highest forme is the one which is ranked. When both formes are the same like Tyranitar, it would make sense for the regular Pokemon to be the one ranked first.

    Just some changes and nominations:

    Gyarados --> A Rank, Even if it can't hit Rotom with Earthquake and fears Thunderbolt, it isn't weak to Grass-type moves allowing it to check Mega Charizard Y. Flying is also a decent defensive typing allowing it to check Fighting-types and Ground-types like Garchomp something Mega Gyarados doesn't do nearly as well.

    Mega Gardevoir --> B Rank, With the metagame as physical as it is, and Mega Gardevoir gains no physical bulk there is no reason to run a defensive set. The loss of items like the Sitrus Berry doesn't help either, this loss also effects the offensive sets as it can't hit nearly as hard as Choice Specs and Life Orb. Pixilate is a pretty bad ability considering that Gardevoir doesn't get Hyper Voice in VGC'14, especially when it loses Trace or Telepathy. Mega Gardevoir isn't bad there is just little reason to use it over regular Gardevoir.

    Gardevoir --> A Rank, See above.

    Mega Charizard X --> B Rank, Weak to Dragon and Ground is pretty bad, but has good bulk and Attack, especially with Tough Claws. Plays a good defensive sit, as well as Dragon Dance.

    Venusaur --> C Rank, Reliant on sun, weak to Talonflame.

    Mega Gengar --> B Rank, is frail and weak to common Pokemon, Tyranitar (Scarf), and Talonflame. Perish Trap isn't that good.

    Scizor --> B Rank, Good bulk, Attack, and typing. STAB Technician boosted Bullet Punch. Checks Fairy-types, Tyranitar, and Mega-Kangaskhan. Can sweep with Swords Dance.

    Mega Scizor --> B Rank, See above with better bulk, Attack, and Speed. However, no items.

    Aromatisse --> B Rank, Good typing, ability, and bulk. Can set up Trick Room reliably.

    Escavalier --> C Rank, See Scizor, with better bulk and Mega Horn. Does little outside of Trick Room.
    WreckDra likes this.
  4. bwebber

    bwebber

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    379
    Changes I'd make:

    Garchomp, S --> A: It has decent bulk, great speed tier, good coverage, and has a decent match up against a lot of Pokemon. However, its defensive typing leaves a lot to be desired in the format, and how many teams don't have at least multiple answers to it? 130 attack also isn't what it used to be anymore. It's a good glue to many teams, like the Rotoms. By no means is it a dominant Pokemon. You shouldn't base rankings based on their usage.

    Tyranitar, S --> A: Special set becoming the standard lost its effectiveness since it no longer catches people off guard. It can't do anything against bulky things it can't hit for SE, like Rotom-W. Still a really good Pokemon of course. But like Garchomp, it's not dominant. We may be to lenient on what constitutes high rankings.

    Mega Tyranitar, S --> B: Ridiculously bulky for an offensive Pokemon. However, it's reliant on getting a DD boost to pose as a significant threat, has many common weaknesses, weak to Intimidate, can't touch Steel types, and is crippled by Burn and Paralysis. I honestly prefer Lum Tyranitar for DD. Mega Tyranitar can wreak havoc if you're unprepared, but it's honestly not hard to tell whether it's mega or not, and being unprepared for a common enough threat means you have other problems than being weak to Mega Tyranitar.

    Talonflame, A --> B: Intimidate weak, helpless against common Pokemon, terrible defensive typing, bad defenses, not to mention it's not all that difficult to EV to take its attacks. Talonflame will just KO itself in exchange for doing chip damage.

    Mega Gardevoir, A --> C: I don't get this one lol. Mega Gardevoir is a bad Pokemon.

    Mega Manectric, A --> B: Same problem special Ttar is having: it's not difficult to bypass its coverage. Mega Manectric isn't bulky enough or strong enough to be ranked A IMO.

    Mega Gyarados, A --> B: Too lenient again I think. There's nothing wrong with Mega Gyarados, it's just not all that great.

    Mega Gengar, A --> B: Really gimmicky strategy that's easy enough to take down if you're unprepared. It can work if you know what you're doing, but having auto-lose scenarios means it's a very niche Pokemon.

    Venusaur, A --> B: Charizard Y being a mandatory partner does not make it a C. It's no different from Talonflame needing Rotom, Manectric, Tyranitar and a lot of other things to be taken down before it can do anything. Venusaur is a monster in Sun, however, other auto weather starters can cripple it, not to mention Grass + Poison has serious coverage issues.

    Aerodactyl, unranked --> B: A ton of support options, + a fast and STAB Rock Slide. Frailty, weaknesses, and lack of offensive presence hold it back.

    Hydreigon, unranked --> B: Biggest thing Salamence has over it is Intimidate and a better speed tier, however, Hydreigon is a lot stronger, bulkier, and has a better offensive and defensive typing. Not to mention it walls Rotom.

    Ferrothorn, B --> A: Incredible. Helpless against anything carrying a Fire move, however, it walls so many things and its bulk and typing allows it to beat Mega Kangaskhan among others. Its Attack stat is also deceptively low as it has two high BP attacks with Power Whip and Gyro Ball, plus, I can't count the number of times late game Leech Seeding has won me a game.

    Mega Venusaur, B --> A: Its bulk is something everyone knows about now, and it's quite difficult to fit Flying or Psychic coverage on a lot of teams. Also, it's not outclassed by Amoonguss because they do different things: Amoonguss offers support, while Venusaur is a bulky attacker.
    tlyee61 and WreckDra like this.
  5. MQJinx

    MQJinx

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2013
    Messages:
    171
    Scizor/Mega Scizor --> B

    Scizor has eight resistances and decent bulk allowing it to set up SD and late-game sweep. Its use over Bisharp and Mawile is to get priority on fairies, Mamowsine, and Tyranitar. It can even run Roost to compliment its longetivity. The differences between normal and Mega are rather minuscule and you can choose to use up your Mega slot or save it for a different mon.
  6. Chipndip

    Chipndip

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Messages:
    60
    I would actually vouch for Mega Gardevoir. I'm currently at 1730 on the special ladder while sporting one, and although I wouldn't say it's an "A", I wouldn't say "C" either. Now sure, I didn't get the whole way there with it, but I recovered about 100 points I lost during a loss streak I had with my Mega Kanga team in order to make it back there.

    Sure, Choice Gardevoir has more damage. Sure, bulky normal Gardevoir gets access to sustain items. However, Mega Gardevoir gets a comfy middle ground option between the two. It gets much more respectable damage output than the bulky variant, but at the same time, it gets the freedom to use moves like Protect and other coverage moves, something that choiced Gardevoir can't do without having to switch over and over. With a proper build and a little Intimidate support from a Salamence or something, it can help win games as a hard-hitting special tank with decent physical def.

    I actually think Mega Gardevoir does more to vouch for itself than the choiced variant does. They're way too frail and easy to read.
  7. klvkboom

    klvkboom

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    MGarde has issues capitalizing on a role that would outshine normal Garde as well as warranting a mega slot. From mega evolving, she primarily only gains more SpA and Spe, and if you can't capitalize on this then the two are no different.

    It creates the issue where the Choiced variants end up being better. With Specs or Scarf, normal Garde has pretty much what MGarde has but it does not take the mega slot, and locking into one attack is little issue since her role in these cases are to simply deal damage. It doesn't necessarily check or counter certain Pokes better, and by this it also means that MGarde doesn't really fulfill any different of a role. Although the ability to change attacks is there as well as a even boost to both SpA and Spe, these are pretty much the only changes and that really isn't enough to warrant the mega slot.

    For bulky variants, you're doing nothing but handicapping yourself with the usage of the mega slot. MGarde has almost no difference in bulk compared to normal Garde, and even if you do gain some SpD it doesn't make any damage calcs any different (bulky normal Garde can already survive Aegislash). Normal Garde already deals enough damage to her aforementioned targets. Her bulky variants have no issue dealing considerable damage to Salamence, Garchomp, Amoonguss, and others. The issue with MGarde here is that by evolving she doesn't really make any of these calcs significantly better. Your 2HKOs will still be 2HKOs from mega evolving, and the only real difference is how much random damage you do with Dazzling Gleam (something that a Specs variant does better).

    You're right that the C ranking may be too low for a powerhouse such as Garde, but the cost for running it as your mega doesn't make up for its slight strengths over it's normal variant. If we had access to a legal Hyper Voice, then yes. But without it, the other reasons for using the mega is too small to justify.
  8. tlyee61

    tlyee61

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    to be honest, in the current meta, i'm almost arguing Rotom-H for A+ / S tier. even though Talonflame was easily the most common fire type at the beginning of the season, once everyone found out about Rotom-Heat, there was no turning back. it is commonly accepted as the best fire type in the format, seeing as it easily beats other fire types (mega charY, talonflame, pyroar, chandelure, moltres) and it's fire / electric type allows it to easily wall pokemon such as manectric, ferrothorn, scizor (although it is not seen often), both common sun abusers (venu / charY), mawile and many others that I'm forgetting. also, it has very nice bulk and can easily live super effective attacks. attaching a safety goggles let's it completely screw over charY / venu and apply pressure to both the tbolt / overheat. it provides massive utility with WoW and can even run HP Ice to get past dragons. it's only weakness is the shaky accuracy of overheat and being walled by tyranitar and garchomp. also, it cannot hit salamence very well.
  9. Kymani

    Kymani

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    I am happy to see that my personal favorite pokemon has become somewhat of a threat in this VGC generation. In a meta-game with many intimidate users, Competitive Wigglytuff can not be discounted. I would rank it in the same tier as Bisharp (which I believe B is the general consensus) as they sort of fulfill the same role, albeit I believe wiggly is a bit better at it. Reasons why I believe wiggly is better than bisharp when facing intimidate teams?
    1)Intimidate on Bisharp is + 1 attack, on wiggly it is + 2 special attack. Wiggly is not crippled by wisp either.
    2) While Bisharp has good typing that resists a lot of attacks it is also very weak to 2 of the most commonly used types, Fire and Ground, not to mention a crippling weakness to fighting. Wiggly on the other hand is only weak to poison and steel which are not that common outside of aegislash and venusaur ( I have rarely encounted scizors this vgc gen). Immunity to Dragon and Ghost, iron barbs, rough skin and rocky helmet don't hurt either.
    3) Bisharp has priority moves but sucker punch can be a bit of a risky mind game at times..Wiggly has access to 2 STAB 100% accurate fairly powerful spread moves, as well as a great movepool that will hit everything for at least neutral. Spread moves will be hitting at least one pokemon so the turn can not be wasted. Wiggly's movepool is much more effective against intimidate users also. Salamence - Dazz Gleam, Scrafty - Dazz Gleam, Manectric - Hyper Voice, Mawile - Fire Blast, Gyarados - Tbolt or dazz gleam for mega. Note that all these pokemon are OHKO after a competitive boost and for some even without the boost (depending on their defense spread).
    4) What do they do outside Defiant/competitive buff - Bisharp can still hit quite hard and pick off weakened foes with priority sucker punch... Wiggly's job is very much like gardevoir's (with more bulk, less damage/speed) to spread damage around crippling pokemon to allow them to be picked off by your remaining pokemon.

    I ran a few vgc battles on showdown to show the potential of wiggly against teams with intimidate users just to give people an idea of it's bulk/damage output and potential at least. A few battles are below.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-116090160
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-115869033
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-116181556
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-116608920
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-115780408
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-115813510
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-115833046
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-115856577
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-115891206
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-115900220
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-115902852

    It seems like Smash bros Melee all over again where jigglypuff was thought of as a joke only to discover it is really quite a threat when unprepared for.
  10. klvkboom

    klvkboom

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    Whereas I do agree that Wigglytuff does have her place in VGC, she does have some glaring weaknesses that prevent her from being a good all-around Poke.

    The biggest difference between Wiggly and Bisharp is her absolute necessity of the Competitive boost in order to be a "reasonable" threat. Bisharp without a Defiant boost is respectably scary enough (especially those Assurance sets running around), and as such you can play him effectively even against teams without Intimidate. Wiggly's damage is pitiful at +0 and can arguably be a hindrance for your team if you can't achieve the boost. Her damage becomes manageable at this point, to an extent where you're better off with the spread damage of another Poke, such as bulky Garde.

    Wiggly's stats are also a bit under average. An 85 base SpA is poor. And as your bulk, as decent as it is, it has some arguable damage calcs contesting with other Pokes. The best example I can give is that a Wiggly can be EV'd similarly to the stats of a bulky Garde (and even then you'll need an Assault Vest to achieve Garde's Special bulk). However, Garde has strengths in other areas whereas Wiggly has the threat of her ability. The things that generally threaten Garde equally threatens Wiggly. TFlame, MKang, Aegislash, Scizor, Gengar, all of these Pokes present a possible chance to OHKO both Pokes unless EVd as such, so I personally find it hard why one would opt for Wiggly>Garde if you can't achieve Wiggly's selling point, the Competitive boost.

    With these ideas in mind, I find it hard to see Wiggly anywhere above C rank. Even though she is a huge threat against your opponent's Intimidate users, without the boost there isn't much reason to use her. She is a weaker Garde, but at +2 that's a different story.
  11. Chipndip

    Chipndip

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Messages:
    60
    I guess, but I'm finding some decent success with it. And I don't mean scrubbing out the low ranks either. It's more of an anti-meta choice, really, but the benefit of hitting harder than a standard bulky Gardevoir, while having the options of one and being faster than one, has its benefits. I personally use it for the damage and speed increase while still being able to cover my normal defense so I can survive 3 Garchomp EQs while being able to cleanly OHKO them back.

    My point is that the choiced variants and the bulky support set are easier to place on a team, whereas Mega Gardevoir (in this format) needs a team based around it. Not a good way to vouch for a mega, I know, and I'm not saying it's A or S material, because it's not. However, I would refuse to say that it's C material either. After running bulky Gardevoir in both forms, there's some clear cut benefits in the damage department that a normal bulky Gardevoir isn't gonna reach, which is part of the point.
  12. Kymani

    Kymani

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    While I agree with some of your analysis there is a lot I disagree with. Garde and Wiggly do share some similar roles but they also have their own distinct purposes. I think you are underestimating how easy it is to get a competitive boost. With threats like kanga, maw, talon, chomp etc running around, intimidate users will be used to cripple them..Should the opponent not bring an intimidate user due to fear of competitive boost, then wiggly has already done a great job of boosting the potential of your powerhouses.

    A few of the threats you have listed are not exactly shared threats either. Aegislash for example is the boon of garde but depending on build could be a blessing for wiggly..how so? Shadow ball is usually aegislash's attack of choice as ghost has excellent neutral coverage while flash canon is resisted by quite a few types...wiggly can safely switch in on a shadow ball, forgo having a coverage move like thunderbolt and use play rough (or physical attack of choice) on kings' s shield and give itself a free competitive boost. I have never encountered a gengar in vgc that wasn't a disable/perish/ trap set and their usual attack move of choice, should they be taunted or facing opposing ghosts who can not be tagged, is shadow ball and not sludge bomb as poison coverage is pretty terrible. Outside of wiggly, pyroar and the occasional helio I can not think of another normal type that would justify running sludge bomb over shadow ball. Regarding talon, while it can be a bane to both garde and wiggly, proper eving allows them both to survive talon flame's brave bird and KO it right back and with wiggly's insane hp stat, the recoil is tremendous and could lead to talon's demise should it have taken previous damage.

    Wiggly is also in a speed tier where it can function in trick room as a bulky damage spreader and has the bulk to function outside trick room making it highly versatile. Its move pool is vastly superior to garde's also.

    That being said, my unbiased experience with wiggly is that it does function like a mix of bulky garde and bisharp (bulky damage spreader, anti intimidater, with a fairly good possibility of becoming an insanely powerful damage spreader). I am not gonna push that wiggly is some sort of god, cuz it isn't, but with all vgc teams, the usefulness of a specific pokemon depends on the needs of a team. Therefore I can not possibly reason that in a meta full of dragons and intimidaters that the usefulness and potential of wiggly is lower than that of garde's and bisharp's to justify putting it in a tier lower than both.
  13. klvkboom

    klvkboom

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    Your point actually make sense, and to an extent it can justify MGarde to be in somewhat of a higher placement.

    The only real opportune cost for MGarde is the Mega slot, aside from that the other differences are small compared to normal Garde's optimal choices. By this reasoning, running MGarde doesn't necessarily hinder your team during battles in any way, only in the aspect of team building. Whereas running something like the big Megas (MKang, MMaw, MZardY, MVenu) is obviously better, nothing is really stopping players from utilizing other Pokes. MGarde and normal Garde both have their respective strengths, and there is no glaring weakness battle-wise using MGarde. I think their ranking should reflect their similarities, with the opportunity cost taken into consideration.

    And as I've pointed out earlier, I do believe C rank is a bit low for MGarde, and I can see her sitting comfortably in B rank. Her only weakness is the cost during team building, and the same thing can be said for people who run other Megas like Gyara, Chomp, and some others. By definition of the rankings, these Pokes fit the description of B rank.

    My biggest issue with Wiggly is her incredibly niche role on the team. Your description of her is pretty much spot on, a combination of Garde and Bisharp. This actually makes it easier for team building since you fill both roles with one Poke. However, outside of utilizing both strengths, she is outclassed in them individually. Gardevoir naturally has more damage, bulk, as well as good support moves, and Bisharp is a big damage threat regardless of boost. Simply said, at +0 Wiggly is terrible, and regardless how "easy" it may be to achieve the boost, the risk of running around with no boost can essentially mean you'll run into a 3v4. Because of these "requirements" to be effective, Wiggly fits the description of C rank well. She absolutely needs Competitive boost to outclass Garde and Bisharp in their roles, and your opponent needs to struggle dealing with it.

    And as for the examples I listed, your argument doesn't necessarily makes the situations any better. Sure, Wiggly can switch into Aegislash whereas Garde can't switch in at all. However, since you need to achieve the Competitive boost, keeping Wiggly in the back is an issue already because that only gives you less opportunities to be hit with Intimidate (by keeping Wiggly in the back for this particular play, you're most likely guaranteeing no Competitve boost for the rest of the battle). For Gengar, as a personal preference I can see Sludge Bomb being effective since it beats one of the meta's biggest threats, Azumarill. Not to mention against both of these Pokes you can't feel completely safe against them, since they do have the potential to hit you with a SE hit. And as for Tflame, the recoil is negligible. Seriously the difference in HP between a standard bulky Garde and a standard Wiggly is about 40HP. That's only ~13 more damage in recoil. I fail to see how recoil justifies any argument.
  14. Kymani

    Kymani

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    To start my rebuttal off, even Ray Rizzo (who I am VERY happy to see running Wiggly on occassion also), one of the best pokemon players in the world believes Wiggly to be a better choice this generation than Bisharp and there is a reason why the use of Wiggly who has seen a lot of use in Asia, is starting to see more popularity out of it.

    How can you say Wiggly is niche when there is such a large number of intimidate users, especially as a large majority of teams run megas and 2 of the most popular are intimidaters? That is not a small market right there or maybe you don't run into as many intimidate users as I do. As a bulky damage spreader, saying Garde does the job better is HIGHLY debatable as Garde has to invest heavy in HP AND defense to survive a lot of physical threats like Kanga and Talon leaving little room for spatk evs, while Wiggly's natural bulk with it's HP allows it to invest heavy in special attack (surpassing the spatk stat of many vgc bulky gardes) and spread the remaining EVs around to survive what it needs to. Garde only has one option for spread damage, Wiggly has 2, Garde does beat wiggly in speed and spdef department though which is a big plus. Run some calcs and you will see that bulky garde and bulky wiggly are very very similar. Lets use an example with one of the most popular pokemon in VGC at the moment, Mega Kanga, building Garde with enough bulk to survive a Return and placing the remaining EVs in spatk, its Dazz gleam hits for 29 - 34% (non spread). Wiggly with enough bulk to survive a return , max its spatk and have evs remaining, hits Kanga for 26 -35% depending on if Dazz or Hyper is used. I know against less threatening physical attackers Bulky Garde can invest more in special attack to out-damage Wiggly and counter specific threats, but as mentioned before it all depends on the needs of a team which makes the 2 pokemon who have some similarities hard to compare. I still believe Garde is at her scariest with a choice scarf though.

    I would say Wiggly far outclasses Bisharp in the role of an anti-intimidater. Bisharp is very frail, is will o' wisp bait and its saving grace, sucker punch, can be very predictable/risky. Defiant isn't going to be put to much use if someone so much as coughs up a fireball in its general direction, and seeing as fire attacks and will o' wisp are far from rare in this meta, it is not looking good for Bisharp. It would get maybe one sucker punch (IF your prediction is correct) which is more than likely gonna be a neutral hit before fainting? Psychic types are rare outside of maybe meowstic who isn't gonna be attacking you anyways and garde who is hit neutral, and ghost types tend to play a more support role with trick room and will o' with the exception of aegislash. Now lets talk about the pokemon who give Bisharp defiant. Salamence -which usually run fire blast. Mawile - I run fire fang instead of iron head but if your opponent doesn't do the same a play rough will most likely take it out. Gyarados - Thunder wave and EQ -Mega gyarados would laugh at Bisharp. Scrafty - laughs even harder at Bisharp. MegaMan - Overheat. One false move and Bisharp is toast or severely cripple by ALL of these vgc regulars. When I see a Bisharp on an opposing team I don't think twice about bringing my Mawile or Salamence as I know both can OHKO it. When I see a good team with Wiggly I have to think carefully about the pokemon I bring. So either you are over estimating the threat of Bisharp or under-estimating the usefulness of Wiggly.

    Wiggly is not for every team but the role it fills is very solid, and when it works, it works amazingly well even being a 1 man show. Is it a must to bring to every battle? No, but neither are other popular choices in the B tier and higher. It is not strong enough for A tier, not gimicky enough for C tier (being the bane of MANY popular pokemon is not really a gimmick or a small niche) I therefore believe she rests solidly in B tier but to each their own.
  15. Chipndip

    Chipndip

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Messages:
    60
    That's exactly where I'd put it as well. Most megas that "aren't that amazing" can sit comfortably in the B tier...outside of Mega Aggron. Poor guy's just so lost without much base Sp.Def. It's either you build into his bulk and he can't hit for shiz, or you build into his damage and get 2HKO'd regardless of his amazing Def stat.


    1) Quick comment on the first bold:

    A modest Gardevoir with absolutely 0 EVs in Sp.Atk sits at 159 Sp.Atk, whereas Wiggly's max Sp.Atk possible is 150. So in order for the first bold to be true, a Gardevoir would have to be running a Sp.Atk neutral nature with absolutely 0 Sp.Atk EVs. I'm not sure what people are using on bulky Gardevoir builds, but unless it's not Quiet or Modest, this doesn't hold true.

    2) Bisharp has flaws, but he hits harder and moves faster than Wigglytuff. Much harder, and much faster. Also, a priority option is always a good thing, even if it can be baited. He works well with friends like that, using Assurance to double down on people and combo-KO them, or Sucker Punch to clean 'em out or prep them up. Wiggly has Dazzle, but that won't hurt without Intimidate or super-effective targets.

    3) Second bold:

    True about that. Bisharp tends to have issues with the very people he boosts off of. However, Wiggly has a crap ton of issues UNLESS it's been boosted. Low damage outside of Hyper Beam and low speed. The move pool's cool, but it's not getting important OHKOs without the boost, and that's the main issue: Wigglytuff's niche is hugely dependent on that one gamble. If we all stopped using Intimidate starting now until the Hoenn remake comes out, would Ray Rizzo be using Wiggly? No. That's the thing: It's an INCREDIBLY niche option, and just them not bringing Intimidate makes it near useless.

    4) Third bold:

    Bisharp, with some backup, can end a Mawile before it gets started. Also, Bisharp can OHKO Salamence after a boost. Not sure if it's 100%, but it's pretty reliable. Wiggly can too, but outside of punishing Intimidate, it doesn't do much else too well.

    Even though all this could be said, I...gotta say that I'd put it at a B, too. It learns Thunderbolt to blast Gyarados, Fire Blast to blast Scizor, Aegislash, Mawile, and Ferrothorn, STAB Hyper Beam to nuke things, Dazzle to spread damage and hurt the dragons, and it's got the bulk to not get OHKO'd by a good deal of moves thanks to its high health. It's a pure counter-picking option that punishes people with its amazing move pool. The move pool saves it from being a flat C, in my opinion. If -B was applicable, I'd give it that.
  16. klvkboom

    klvkboom

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    You point out Ray's usage of the Poke yet you fail to recognize that there is no other history of Wiggly having any relative success. No other tourney has Wiggly in the top cut, and even in the 2014 Asia Cup, which you claim to see a lot of use in Asia, has no Wigglytuff in top 32. This alone shows that the Poke itself has a very niche role in the meta, and that is to deter Intimidate. Competitive as an ability threatens much better compared to Defiant, but from a Poke with the base stats of Wiggly, without the boost you are nothing.

    And as for Garde and Wiggly's bulk being "debatable", you've obviously did very little for damage calcs. Sure Garde needs to invest heavily in Hp and Def to survive aforementioned attacks, but she does that because her SpA is respectably high enough. Wiggly's the opposite, where her bulk is already usable yet her SpA is absolutely terrible. Lets take Ray's Wiggly as an example. It can survive CB TFlame, MKang, both calcs are what bulky Garde can achieve. On the Special side, you can survive Aegislash, MVenu, Gengar... if you're holding an Assault Vest. Garde needs but marginal investment in this department to survive these hits as well as the freedom of item. SpA wise, Garde can simply run a +nature with no investment and already surpass what Wiggly can achieve.

    Now what you said about being a better anti-intimidater than Bisharp is right. However, Bisharp doesn't even need boosts to function. His success in tourneys have already shown his innate power. As for playstyle, Wiggly is more predictable than Bisharp is. Wiggly's needs to rely on their bulk to eventually deal damage, whereas Bisharp has both priority, Protect, and standard attacks. Anyone can beat Bisharp if they "predict" right, but anyone can beat Wiggly if they simply double target, no prediction needed. They're most likely running AV to reach certain damage calcs so there's no real fear of hitting a Protect, and she already has no priority. I find it difficult to see what you are trying to say about Bisharp as it is pretty obvious that Bisharp is more unpredictable.

    On another note, you might want to reconsider using Salamence and to an extent MMaw against a Bisharp especially as a lead. That play will definitely cost you more games than you'd like to believe, and that kind of mentality even more.

    Also, please read the ranking criteria. D rank is where gimmicks are often seen, whereas C rank is reserved for Pokes that require certain conditions to be met to outclass other Pokes. Wiggly needs Competitive boost otherwise she is outperformed by Garde and she needs to be properly supported since she is slow, predictable, and easily double targeted (whereas Bisharp isn't as much). I didn't say Wiggly is gimmicky by any means, but the need to attain certain battle conditions for its success greatly hinders its universal usage.
  17. Kymani

    Kymani

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    Maybe I am a bit blinded by how crazy good wiggly has been functioning on my team with the likes of banded talon and adamant max attack megamawile where even minimal damage by spread attacks put a lot of threats in OHKO range of my teams powerful priority moves. Intimidate can seriously cripple my threats but if wiggly scares people into not bringing their intimidate user or having to make questionable plays to work around wiggly on the field then I believe wiggly has done a job far more than mediocre unboosted spread damage.

    I did mention that bulky garde's damage calcs vary greatly depending on what you are building it to survive. (I believe most just build to survive banded talon).

    I have read the descriptions for the tiers and still believe wiggly is too viable or not niche enough for the c tier due to its many purposes. A sort of jack of the trades and a master of one.
    1) Access to spread attacks is always great to remove guessing games and picking off weakened foes while damaging other opponents.
    2) great coverage allowing to hit a lot of the vgc staples super effectively for good damage. Meaning it can still be effective even without a boost. After a boost It threatens everything.
    3) Staying power- it can take a few non SE attacks very well from non powerhouses. SE attacks against wiggly are very rare and those pokemon can also be hit super effectively by wiggly. Many players rarely target unboosted Wiggly first leading to a lot of bad plays into its partner's protect. 25% to both opponents can quickly become 50% to both opponents if left unchecked.

    That being said I will not be naive and say that in some matches Wiggly has not performed underwhelmingly. But the same goes for many pokemon. Is Amoongus support required by all? No. Is Meowstic Male support required by all? No. Is Aerodactyl support required by all? No. Is Wiggly support needed by all? No. Does that make um any less viable? Not at all as they are all the best at what they are meant for and taken when needed depending on the needs of your team and the pokemon on the opposing team you are facing. I feel meowstic female fits the C tier better than Wiggly as it is vastly inferior in every way other than speed.

    Should the meta shift to the point where intimidate is rare then yes, Wiggly is far outclassed and would belong in the c or d tier. Until then its ability to support teams can not be denied.
  18. bwebber

    bwebber

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    379
    When did he ever say this?
    Professor Birch likes this.
  19. Kymani

    Kymani

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    Google Wigglytuff is tough enough where he gives an analysis of his team. He replaced bisharp with Wiggly quoting "I was originally testing Bisharp in this role instead, but found it extremely underwhelming if the opponent didn’t bring Intimidate, and even if they did it had quite a few flaws."
  20. bwebber

    bwebber

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    379
    I know he said that, you just badly misinterpreted what he said lol. Besides, just because he won with Wigglytuff it doesn't mean he discovered a hidden gem; he barely brought the thing to the tournament, and might have even had an easier time if he used something else.
  21. klvkboom

    klvkboom

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    I find it hard to see where and how you come to make claims such as these. By no means is this true, and you false claiming as such is doing nothing but hurting your credibility. Bulky Garde's EV spreads do not deviate greatly at all. Even though many people are unaware of this, arguing otherwise just shows arrogance and a lack of knowledge of the Poke. From a numbers standpoint, the common bulky Garde runs 252/124 in order to survive CB TFlame. Equally, this same defensive spread also survives Scizor and lowers MKang to a marginal chance of OHKO (Sitrus variants can survive even Double Edge). From there, a simple 20 SpD ensures you survive Aegislash, and likewise MVenu, Gengar, and MGar's Shadow Ball. The only real deviation is if you want to survive MZardY's Overheat. And in Wiggly's case, she needs an AV to come anywhere close to Garde's bulk.

    As for the list you pointed about, an unboosted Wiggly is essentially a weaker Garde. Garde does everything better from bulk, damage, and movepool (Wiggly needs AV to be even comparable in bulk). Everything you happened to point out can be equally done by Garde and outperformed to an extent. Also saying you may be "rarely targeted" means nothing. Wiggly is not a surprise to anyone anymore, and what you're pointing out is just good use of prediction.
  22. Kymani

    Kymani

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    I never once claimed wiggly was a hidden gem. I am just stating it has a purpose..and a very good one. And the reason rizzo rarely used wiggly was because of a surprising lack of intimidate users...which means he also usually runs into intimidate users often enough to justify bringing it to his team.
  23. Kymani

    Kymani

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    I am no Garde expert, and if I am wrong then I apologize. I can only go by what I have seen, heard and run damage calcs.

    I just ran some calcs on the damage calculators and heavy bulk Garde spreads (what you gave me) and heavy sp-atk wiggly spreads are producing similar numbers damage-wise with only about a 15 -20 point sp-atk stat difference (assuming Garde is also running a modest nature), which wiggly can make up for with access to the more powerful hyper voice. If these calcs are wrong then please correct me. The calc is also showing that garde also has a 62% chance of being OHKO by Mega Kanga without the use of a Sitrus (again modest nature). I have acknowledged earlier that Garde outshines wiggly on the special bulk side, but on the physical bulk side Wiggly does not need to invest as heavy (i.e. it does not need to invest in both hp and defense). As for movepool, Garde has access to better support moves with the likes of wisp, wiggly has access to better offensive attacks which means an assault vest is perfect for it in order to prioritize its excellent coverage while enhancing its special bulk. To each their own I guess. I will try running bulky garde on my team for a while and see how it fares.
  24. klvkboom

    klvkboom

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    I agree that damage-wise the two are only marginally different. As for EVs, Wiggly invests in SpA to rival Garde, whereas Garde invests in HP. Bulk is where the two differ though, and yes as you've mentioned its for their SpD. This is my primary concern between Wiggly and Garde. If Wiggly wants to rival Garde's bulk she'll opt for AV, and by the ladder statistics, nearly 80% of them are holding the item. This means that Garde still has her choice in items and attacks, which is a huge difference especially with Specs, Scarf, Mega Stone (as ChipnDip claims to have relative success), Sitrus, and support moves being available to her. This also creates the issue of being too predictable for Wiggly.

    Also, my MKang calcs is for the Jolly variants, which is presumably the more common ones.

    Of course, Wiggly has Competitive going for her. However, my other issue is the consistency of the ability. Consistency is key to have success in VGC. And, even if you feel like you've succeeded in preventing Intimidate coming in, in those scenarios you'll wish you had something like Specs Garde as opposed to a +0 Wiggly for more power. Wiggly gives you a great option against teams packing Intimidate, but if your opponent plays around it, how would you know this fear tactic really works? Maybe if your opponent solely relied on Intimidate to neuter physical attackers, but otherwise its hard to tell if Wiggly is really "doing its job". This is where Bisharp can be considered as more consistent. Defiant can be an asset, not a requirement. Naturally Bisharp is a heavy hitter, and he just happens to also deter Intimidate.
    Last edited: May 9, 2014
  25. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    875
    Wiggilytuff is definitely not getting higher than B-Rank, you may continue to explain for C though.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)