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Which team would Dragonite > Salamence?
- Thread starter lordkira
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Prediction kills/makes it. A team with a pokemon to absorb the special moves that also has a steel type is golden. A good example is SkarmBliss, or Metagross + Snorlax, etc.
See, the problem I have with the whole Dragonite vs Salamence argument is that it's like comparing apples to oranges; sure, they're fruits, but besides that they're completely different.
It's a lot like comparing Metagross to Jirachi, in my mind. They're both Steel/Psychic, both OU, and both use Stealth Rock, but neither does the same thing as the other. Salamence is a sweeper, Dragonite is a wall breaker. The only thing they both share is typing, and (imo) the whole debate over who's better starded before anyone noticed Dragonite's other niche in the OU tier.
It's a lot like comparing Metagross to Jirachi, in my mind. They're both Steel/Psychic, both OU, and both use Stealth Rock, but neither does the same thing as the other. Salamence is a sweeper, Dragonite is a wall breaker. The only thing they both share is typing, and (imo) the whole debate over who's better starded before anyone noticed Dragonite's other niche in the OU tier.
The other guy will also be expecting this. I am saying in overall, it almost feels as if everyone these days has one of these on their team like they did with garchomp a while ago, of course not as much as him (garchomp was ridiculous...pretty much saw like at least one every other team i faced -_-) but yeah i almost feel obligated to have a mence counter on my team
Dragonite is more defensive and that is what I will use along with a support or two to sweep, which Mence can closely follow but not quite. I didn't make this thread to start a mence vs nite debate. You're right most people try to use nite the exact same way as Mence and of course he will be inferior in those departments (it's just like mence trying to use support sets and bulky dd set, which dragonite is much better imho) and that is exactly why I was trying to figure out how dragonite will be used, or where, so that it will not be outclassed by salamence. This thread pretty much helped me on that, oh and one other thing I didn't need a mixnite as I already have that and with the right prediction it works even better than mixmence but i need more predictions to stay alive with that thing. Offensive Yache Berry one is actually nice and with little EV tweaking and the right support, it can survive 2HKO from vaporeon's ice beam, which i truly amazing as mence can't do that. But I am mostly intrigued with the bulky ddnite who is not a defensive poke but an offensive sweeper that would (apparently) sweep extremely well with even 2 DD's and steels out of the way. Wow, I got side tracked there and talked a lot of crap about what I will e doing lol.
ANyways I made this thread to find out what dragonite can do better than salamence not how it can do better than salamence with the same sets/rules.
Oh, I'm not flaming your thread. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading it, and have learned a lot about two Pokemon and how closely related, yet different they are. I was just pointing out another instance where the SalaNite argument could be used, but isn't.
If you think it's derailing, I'll delete, but if not, whatever. =]
If you think it's derailing, I'll delete, but if not, whatever. =]
oh no no no I was just justifying myself lol.
i just didn't want to look like one of those 60% of the dragonite users who are still trying imitate salamence (252/252 ev, jolly, dd set with life orb). So far I like the BUlky DDNite idea and I just realized with light screen, Yache offensive DDNite is 3HKO'd by vaporeon's ice beam, which would give him 2 turns to DD if it switches into him (of course with SR). I tried to do this with offensive DDMence and it wouldn't work, it would have to incest quite a lot of ev's into HP and/or sp.Def, which it shouldn't as it will lose some power...anyhow! Offensive DDNite might work as wlel witht he right support, even better than DDMence...but I would rather go with BUlky DD, which think is cooler haha
i just didn't want to look like one of those 60% of the dragonite users who are still trying imitate salamence (252/252 ev, jolly, dd set with life orb). So far I like the BUlky DDNite idea and I just realized with light screen, Yache offensive DDNite is 3HKO'd by vaporeon's ice beam, which would give him 2 turns to DD if it switches into him (of course with SR). I tried to do this with offensive DDMence and it wouldn't work, it would have to incest quite a lot of ev's into HP and/or sp.Def, which it shouldn't as it will lose some power...anyhow! Offensive DDNite might work as wlel witht he right support, even better than DDMence...but I would rather go with BUlky DD, which think is cooler haha
Not a single team prefers Dragonite>Salamence. Seriously. Dragonite is slower and has worse offensive stats. It is bulkier, but Salamence can always get a Yache Berry or defensive EV spread. It also has Intimidate.
Mate, have you been reading this thread with your eyes closed? Dragonites as fast as gyarados and i dont you have a problem with him.
Dragonite has a very different movepool including superpower, thunderbolt, light screen and heal bell. Also your whole " it can carry yache berry" means its not carrying lifeorb/leftovers and the defensive ev spread would mean it would have lower attack being a lesser dragonite. Sure a dragonite being played as if it were mence is worse, but thats why there two different pokes with different roles.
Gyarados is also quite slow (Dragonite/Gyarados can boost with DD). Hyper offense is good. I only ise Pokemon with 100 base speed or above, for a good reason. And ever heard of bulky DD Mence? Max Speed and defensive EVs in a defensive stat+HP. Salamence has better offense (both spectrums) and Speed, and physical survivability because of Intimidate. They have the same job if they are offensive and Salamence does it better.
Even if Nite it's as slow as Gyara, Gyara don't have another flying/water pokemon that do the same but faster and with a better trait, it's closest competition is... Kingdra I guess.
Dragonite's main problem is: He seems like he could do many things, but there are better ones doing whatever he does, even the bulky DD it's outclassed by Kingdra and Gyarados.
IMO Dragonite with wish would be a nice support pokemon (I dont like Roost), but whatever.
Oh, and btw, elemental punches sucks so bad as elemental fangs without a boost (Iron fist, STAB, at last x4 weakness, x2 doesnt really matter)
Dragonite's main problem is: He seems like he could do many things, but there are better ones doing whatever he does, even the bulky DD it's outclassed by Kingdra and Gyarados.
IMO Dragonite with wish would be a nice support pokemon (I dont like Roost), but whatever.
Oh, and btw, elemental punches sucks so bad as elemental fangs without a boost (Iron fist, STAB, at last x4 weakness, x2 doesnt really matter)
The only use I could find for Dragonite is in a team that abuses the "double dragon" strategy. Of course, you use him in the same team with Salamence. One of them comes in as an early game wallbreaker to weaken the opposing team and the other one sweeps late game.
Other than that I don't see a reason to use him over Salamence.
Other than that I don't see a reason to use him over Salamence.
You clearly don't understand what has been discussed here. First of all, (someone mentioned this earlier) Dragonite is superior for teams that rely on resistances and immunities, since he has the bulk to take attacks and dish them out. Yes, Salamence has Intimidate, but can he set up on bulky waters? No. With things like SubToxic Heatran on a team, you can Toxic their bulky water, and stall them with Light Screen + Roost on bulky Dragonite. This allows Dragonite to pull off a couple DDs, and possibly allow something else on your team sweep(Gyarados, anyone?). Not only the bulky set is superior to Salamence, but so is the mixed set. When it comes to breaking stall, Dragonite is arguably the best in the game, with its broken special Dragon move-Draco Meteor, and Superpower to stop any Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, or Heatran(OHKOs them all, which Salamence can never do on a mixed set). He can use Thunderbolt to make up for his 10 less base special attack points, or Roost in the last slot for recovery (which most Salamence can't run, since they need Outrage + Earthquake for beating Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, and Heatran). This makes Dragonite a superior choice for wall-breaking, AND bulky DD sets. Let's take a look at the CB set.
Dragonite doesn't have the speed or great ability for CB, but most of the time, these fierce dragons will force something out, so that point is largely moot. Dragonite gets physical Fire Punch, which 2HKOs Skarmory most of the time, guaranteed with Stealth Rock. This allows Dragonite to spam Fire Punch against stall teams-unlike Salamence, since it hits Rotom-A and Blissey significantly harder than Salamence's unboosted Fire Blast. It also hurts Tentacruel more. The only advantage of running Fire Blast here is for more against Celebi, but Dragonite still 2HKOs. Dragonite's bulk allows him to switch into Surfs with Stealth Rock + Sandstorm much more comfortably, which is especially useful given the amount of Tentacruel used for Toxic Spikes.
Finally, we come to the support set. Simply put, Salamence can't even touch the support that Dragonite brings. Thunder Wave, Light Screen, Safeguard, Heal Bell, these are necessary for support. Sure, you can switch into Lucario and force it out, but, isn't that why Cresselia isn't used much anymore? Because all it did was switch into dragons and fighting types, while doing nothing after? Dragonite can heal your sweepers of paralysis or burn, especially useful if you have something like Lucario on your team, who is a better sweeper than either one of these dragons anyways.
EDIT: Riverside: Ask yourself this, do Kingdra or Gyarados get Roost or Light Screen? No. Now how in the world is that outclassed. You seriously need to research things before you spit out what everyone else has been saying.
It is important to note that mence running as if it were nite would also be outclassed by nite. Dragonite is pretty much a jack of all trades as it can do many things (not only seemingly but it CAN do many things) but is often outclassed by others in different departments. Dragonite's BUlky DD, however, outclasses mence where he would have to invest ev's into def and/or sp.def to be as bulky as him. And don't give me that "intimindate blah blah" argument as it is occassional advantage. WOuld be nice if they destroyed SR as illegal move. Mence would be as broken if not better than Garchomp...maybe even better as he can be much more unpredictable with his movepool and his greater sp.ATK. That would be a sight lol
Edit: Agreed with blasphemy. People consider him slow because they try to use him exactly the same as Mence in a hyper offensive teams. THis...is a stupid thing to do.
Even if your playing Dragonite hyperoffensively (DD or Choice Band, and for some reason CBMence is popping up frequently on RMT's now), Dragonite has Fire Punch. A CB'd Fire Punch 2HKOs Celebi, whereas Salamence would have to use Outrage. Outrage may not seem that bad seeing as your CB'd anyway, but Steel types will love you. Jirachi can paralyze you, for instance, and a P-lized 'Mence is near-useless.
Dragonite has five advantages over Mence, which are: Heal Bell, Light Screen, slightly higher sp. def (not much, though), Agility, and Superpower.
Basically, if you want to use Dragonite, you should either use an Agility sweeper, a mixed wallbreaker with Superpower, or a special wall and supporter with Heal Bell and Light Screen.
If you aren't using any of these, you should be using Mence.
Basically, if you want to use Dragonite, you should either use an Agility sweeper, a mixed wallbreaker with Superpower, or a special wall and supporter with Heal Bell and Light Screen.
If you aren't using any of these, you should be using Mence.
You forgot Thunderbolt, which is useful for beating down bulky waters.
But I'm glad you brought up the Agility Sweeper. I don't think it's much good, to be honest. Instead, a Mixed Dancer Salamence, with Dragon Dance/Outrage/Draco Meteor/Earthquake or Fire Blast should be used. It has more power after a Dragon Dance, and a better special attack stat. The speed difference is made up, because Salamence has a far higher base speed.
I've heard people discussing this set before, and it has potential. Here is a link.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53072
Yache Berry Dragonite is good, and not outclassed by Salamence. Although Garchomp is definitely better, and if he comes back to OU, it won't be any use.
Using a "bulky" poke that is weak to SR is bad, especially if it needs to set up. 9/10 if you want a fast dd sweeper, DDmence is better (but nobody even uses that anymore), if you want a mid-speed/bulky, DDgyara is better (and gets taunt/bounce, for better coverage, and if you want an actually bulky sweeper, DDtar is better. In all the teams I've made I've never had too much trouble with dragonite running gimicky sets like healbell/light screen, though I have had problems with mence.
The fact that mence by himself counters dragonite with draco meteor is a huge problem also.
The fact that mence by himself counters dragonite with draco meteor is a huge problem also.
Exactly, Salamence needs to use a -defensive nature and invest in special attack to 2HKO Celebi with Fire Blast, and to beat Skarmory, both of which are commonplace on stall teams, and Blissey can just come in to absorb the Fire Blast(getting a Wish off right here is likely going to lose you the game).
It comes down to experienced players vs. new players. New players are going to use what they think is the best, but experienced players who have seen when Dragonite is more useful will definitely be unbiased.
BTW, Dragonite also has higher defense(95 > 80), which is huge, since a sweeper should come in on a move it is immune to, or in on a resisted move AFTER one of your pokemon have died(ie Choice Scarf Close Combat). Once that pokemon is forced to switch out, Dragonite's superior natural defense is much more useful. Also, 100 base special defense is much higher than 80. It translates into 40 extra points, which is why Dragonite can beat bulky waters with Roost + Light Screen.
It's more useful, but both are the same type and have somewhat the same counters.
Still, Roost + Light screen takes 2 places in your moveset, leaving you with only 2 attacks: Outrage it's not an option, you're not Garchomp or Salamence. Draco meteor with 100 base spc atk doesn't help much, also, if you want to stay in battle is won't help at all. Dragon claw suck ass and dragon pulse, with that avarage special attack, suck even more. Thunderbolt will do good damage to bulky waters non-swampert and skarmory (and that seems to be the function of that dragonite) leaving you with 1 attack. The only good option I see it's superpower (Bliss, t-tar, heatran, lucario, good damage, uses physical attack), but it's too risky and you're still walled badly by swampert, probably the most common bulky water.
Also, if you want to use Thunderbolt and superpower you will need to use EVs on Attack, Spc def, HP, Spc atk and maybe some speed to outspeed non-dd'd gyarados and prevent ice fang. That's too much stats to give EVs (and that leave you exposed to phyical attacks)
what i am going to say is probaly crazy,but anyone ever tried to use agility mixed nite? with agility,nite dont need to spend 190+ evs on speed,and can place then on defense,sure,it wont give you that atack boost,but with the right speed evs,after agility nite is faster then mence after 1 DD,but this is not the case,might also try a agy physical one,this way the evs not given in speed and that dont need to be placed in special atack can go to defense,making him more bulk,now what i am going to say might also be stupid,but i think that nite is so fat compared to mence that he should have the thick fat ability,its also of my interess to say that in the pokedex(i know its not the same,but let me say)nite can do a 360 on the planet in 16 hours,what is stupid because i think that base 80 speed cant do that.
I use a Spore/Belly Drum/Baton Pass/Substitute Smeargle with Leftovers to set up my Dragonite, who is Impish with 248 HP and 252 Defense and Leftovers (this is very useful, I have found). The speed issue isn't a problem at all for me, because I have something that Salamence doesn't; Agility.
That's what I use and it works for me, better than you'd think. If you want to use Dragonite effectively then you must do something which Salamence simply cannot do, and this is one of those things. With Belly Drum, Agility and huge bulk plus leftovers to back him up, my Dragonite doesn't falter where Salamence would be outsped. Salamence can be stopped by things like Ice Shard and Bullet Punch, not my Dragonite.
That needs Magnezone support, or you won't be passing anything reliably with Scizor and Skarmory around.
Then again, using Magnezone with Dragonite isn't really a problem.
I tried it pre-platinum, and it worked nicely for me. I don 't think it works well anymore though.
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