Which team would Dragonite > Salamence?

[lordkira]

Oh the offensive DD set.
If I were to use a dragonite, I would go with a Bulky DD-Nite.
I've never liked speedy dragonite since it is still outsped by many but always loved the bulky one. If I were to use the nite, i'd use it in a bulky offensive team or a stall team as a finisher. What do you guy sthink about that?

 

[IronGross]

Say...can one opt for Fire Punch insted of EQ on the BulkyDD set?

 

[Flashstorm1]

If I remember correctly, RaikouLover has always stressed the following point: "Don't use Dragonite as an inferior Salamence, as it is simply not going to work". Following this point, I think Dragonite should only be used on teams which specifically need a bulky sweeper or an effective stall breaker. Of course, for this, I need to bring up the actual topic of this thread.

As pretty much everyone else has stated, Dragonite has options to a lot of support moves that Salamence doesn't. These include Heal Bell and Light Screen. From this information, we can easily assign Dragonite two roles that would be much more difficult (or impossible) for Salamence: Cleric and Bulky Dragon Dancer. The problem with the Cleric set is, Blissey usually pulls the job off better due to a decreased amount of weaknesses, so I think Dragonite is best used on an offensively oriented team that takes advantage of its typing and bulk. The Dragon Dancer would work in a similar way, except Light Screen allows it to survive even Ice Beam, and Dragonite would make a fantastic switch-in to Heatran.

After all of this, we have the MixNite set. From my own opinion, I don't really find the MixMence set inferior to Dragonite when it comes to wall-breaking. Sure, Superpower OHKOes Blissey, but you still need to predict when using it. If Blissey switches into Draco Meteor and sees the Life Orb, of course it's going to switch out. In Salamence's case, the same applies, as Brick Break 2HKOes regardless (hit it on the switch-in, and after SR damage, Blissey is left at around 30%), and at that stage, Blissey is pretty much crippled. The best advantage in Salamence's case is higher Speed, which I find much more useful than an OHKO on Blissey that doesn't even matter.

That is all.

 

[lordkira]

Oh yes I know. But what I am wondering is where would such Bulky Sweeper be needed? Such as what type of team (in general ofc)? If I were to ever try out dragonte, it would be the Bulky DD-Nite.

 

[Flashstorm1]

Oh yes I know. But what I am wondering is where would such Bulky Sweeper be needed? Such as what type of team (in general ofc)? If I were to ever try out dragonte, it would be the Bulky DD-Nite.

Even though I think Dragonite is inferior to Salamence in most regards, which probably makes my advice a bit subjective, I'd probably use it on a bulky offense team which works through type resistances to take hits, while using strong set-up sweepers to provide a form of offense. At least with Dragonite, you can switch it in easier and heal off any damage with Roost...

 

[lordkira]

Hmmm I see ok thanks
I also do believe mence is better than nite in most situations but in DD. I still believe dragonite' dd is quite better (of course with the defensive dd set, neverliked the offensive set) as almost everyone packs ice beam, HP-Ice and other ice attacks for many of their pokemons on their team. However, in general esp with greater speed, mence (IMHO) is better. This will change only if Mence goes uber but I don't know if that is going to happen. WOuld not be surprised though as one of mence's, IMHO, set known as the MixMence (obv we all know lol) is pretty much broken to me.
I always see this set whenever i go battle...at least once every 3 games i would say -_-

 

[ARandomDude]

If you use Dragonite, it's because:

a) you want to take advantage of his movepool, including support moves. He has access to Heal Bell, Light Screen, TWave, etc. He has better defenses (albeit 4 less base HP). He is a better mixed attacker in terms of movepool, with Flamethrower, TBolt, etc.

or b) You want a better Skarmbliss counter. While MixMence is solid at countering Skarmbliss, he cannot OHKO Blissey with Brick Break/Outrage, while Blissey could fire back with Twave or Ice Beam. Dragonite's Superpower has no such problem.

 

[lordkira]

If I were to ever use him I woudl like to use one that would be outclassing his brother, often compared with, salamence. Dragonite's Bulky DDNite, now in my honest opinion, greatly outclasses Bulky DDMence and I think this is what I ma looking for. I would use Bulky DDNite (without Light screen) with LS Cresselia and Magnezone. I would also have a Heatran in order to destroy the pesky steels that resist the DDNite. Overall, it will be used very well (in my opinion of course lol) in a bulky offense team.
What do you say guys?

 

[IronGross]

SkarmBliss is outdated...
Also, any opinon on my first comment?

 

[lordkira]

Say...can one opt for Fire Punch insted of EQ on the BulkyDD set?
You can but I rather have EQ and have a Heatran as my answer to the steels

 

[Flashstorm1]

Say...can one opt for Fire Punch insted of EQ on the BulkyDD set?
You can but I rather have EQ and have a Heatran as my answer to the steels

Is it just me, or did you answer your own question here? O.o

Are you asking whether Earthquake or Fire Punch is more viable on Dragonite?

Edit: Oh I see. He messed up on the quoting part.

 

[IronGross]

Is it just me, or did you answer your own question here? O.o

Are you asking whether Earthquake or Fire Punch is more viable on Dragonite?

I asked that...Heatran VS Bronzong and Skarmory...
Also, the set on the first page I posted? Any opinion?

 

[lordkira]

No no, my question is where the Defensive DDnite will suit most efficiently (compared to his "rival" Mence) and I stated simply if the replacement of EQ with fire punch is viable or not, in my opinion of course. So no, I didn't answer my question.

edit: to coldeye...i am not sure where you talked about the issue of heatran vs skarm and zong in this thread mmmm

 

[mtr]

Hmmm...defensive DDNite:

You should probably stick to Earthquake, as the higher base power is quite useful. Also, being walled and beaten by Heatran is shameful. If nothing else, think about it this way: Heatran is the 4th most common pokemon you'll see. It has a frighteningly high special attack, and will always deal permanent damage to anything bar Blissey (and even then, it has Explosion). On the other side, there is Skarmory (Forretress can't really hurt you with Payback, and he lacks instant recovery). Skarmory can phaze you away and make you take a recoverable 25% of damage from Stealth Rock. So? It's easier to fit Skarmory-defeating duties on your team than Heatran-defeating duties, and you can just use a Lucario, who destroys the metal bird after a Swords Dance, or can lure it in. Or Metagross, who tears it a new one after a CB Explosion.

607 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (250 Base Power): 261 - 308 (78.14% - 92.22%)

250 base power because Explosion is calculated as if the defender's defense was halved, so it's effectively 500, but the Steel typing brings it down. So even if you hit it with a U-turn on the switch-in or double-switch to a special attacker, it's going down after one stroke and Stealth Rock or 2 switch-ins. Skarmory is predictable and easy to beat. Heatran...is not. Magnezone defeats any Skarmory with little risk to itself. If a Heatran is Scarfed, Magnezone probably won't be going near that.



http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48711
In this bulky offense team, SpecsLucario is used as a lure for common Scizor counters, such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, Swampert, Forretress, and Skarmory. These things will all beat a defensive DDNite. As such, you should consider a lure of sorts as well if you don't use Magnezone. SpecsLuke can fit the bill.

Basically:
-use Earthquake. It's easier to beat Skarm than Heatran
-use Magnezone or use a lure
-play a fairly standard bulky team, or play stall-based balance.

And the next time you survive an Ice Fang from a Hippowdon and roost off the damage, you'll remember why Dragonite can be better than Salamence.

 

[lordkira]

I will be using Magnezone to beat down steels and Cresselia to setup light screen for dragonite to stay alive for a while. Do you by any chance know if the following will be a good bulky team/stall-based balance?

Metagross (Lead)
Cresselia (Wall/support with LS)
Dusknoir (Wall)
Empoleon (Tank)
Magnezone (Sp.Atk sweeper)
Dragonite (Bulky DD-Nite, Main late sweeper)

 

[mtr]

It doesn't look bad, but what do you plan on using Empoleon to tank? Usually, Tyranitar is better, and will probably help out your team more, as he can function as a lure for Skarmory in case Magnezone proves to not work due to Shed Shell.

 

[lordkira]

Tyranitar...I am just not putting him in there due to the fact that I don't like him lol. I am not as competitive as some of the others here but also care about my personal preference. But yeah I understand thanks though :D
Oh and even offensive dragonite with yache berry was being considered. In general it may be outclassed by DDMence but I'd even switch DDNite in with yache berry to bulky waters such as vaporeon (highest ice beam dmg of all bulky waters) and with Light screen on, I will be able to DD twice, which would then allow me to kill off at least 1/3 of the team (or more if late game). Well, it looks good on papers at least for now haha

 

[VashTheStampede]

Not much else I can say that others haven't. Bulky Offense and Wallbreaking are awesome.

 

[Revolution.Z]

Bulky DDNite probably fits in better than mence in a team with bulky offense quite popular nowadays. But they are both very good for the job but the fact Nite has better defenses is probably why it outclasses Mence in Bulky DD sets but Mence does have Intimidate and some better speed to roost faster because of SR switch in assuming it's up of course.

Actually has anyone thought of combining Bulky Nite and the Support Nite into one as Nite has access to Heal Bell it could make a nice cleric with superb offensive power.

And i can't believe Kingdra doesn't have a Bulky DD set it has the best typing in the game but it's limited movepool doesn't really allow it to recover which is kinda bad but still someone should test a Bulky Kingdra to see how many DD's it can get under it's belt with screen support.

 

[lordkira]

Oh and just for the reference, offensive dragonite with yache berry can survive vaporeon's ice beam twice with a light screen on, while offensive salamence cannot. Pretty neat in my opinion.

 

[Titanium]

Dragonite is equipt with haze which can be brilliant when bringing down a bulky dragondanced mixmence. Be sure dragonite has a widepsread ev typing and can use both draco meteor and outrage

 

[lordkira]

I am interested in the Defensive DDNite and Offensive DDNite (yep outclassed by Salamence but I pretty much would never use Mence as I have made quite a lot of its variants for the past...well for a while and there are way toomany) Both will be paired with magnezone and a LS supporter. I am not sure who my LS or Dual Screen supporter will be. It is between Cresselia, Azelf, and Bronzong. Hmmm

 

[blasphemy1]

SkarmBliss is outdated...
Also, any opinon on my first comment?

This is 100% false. With 4 other pokemon to work around their weakness (mixed sweepers), stall is incredibly difficult to break(a well built one).

For bulky DD Nite, I prefer EQ, but not because of Heatran vs. Skarmory, as that point is moot(you can't simply trap Skarm @ Shed Shell), but rather the higher base power and equal neutral coverage.

 

[lordkira]

man i wish mence would go uber lololol

 

[blasphemy1]

man i wish mence would go uber lololol

Unfortunately for Dragonite fans, that will never happen. He obtained the most broken moves likely to ever come into pokemon this gen, and he still isn't broken.