White Kyurem & Black Kyurem

[bubbly]

It's interesting to compare them to Victini and Darmanitan, which have similar levels of obscene power, but still aren't competitively viable. I guess the argument there is that those two don't have Dragon STAB, are weakened by Rain significantly, and have either negative stat drops or massive recoil. I'm one of the guys who actually uses Kyurem sometimes in the current OU and I can definitely see the new formes fitting into that niche (beating Waters, Electrics, Grasses) as well as having that huge potential as wallbreakers.

My guess is that they'll just settle down as mediocre Ubers. Of course that would all change if you take out the charge turn on their signatures...

 

[Ithilanor]

Shaymin's formes have always been in different tiers, and the Rotom-A variants were tiered independently once they got their own typings. I don't see why this would be different.

Out of curiosity, why weren't the Rotom variants tiered separately in DPP?

 

[R_N]

Out of curiosity, why weren't the Rotom variants tiered separately in DPP?

Probably because they differed only by a single move?

 

[IcyMan28]

Out of curiosity, why weren't the Rotom variants tiered separately in DPP?

What R_N said. They were all the same pokemon with a different sprite and different attack.

It's interesting to compare them to Victini and Darmanitan, which have similar levels of obscene power, but still aren't competitively viable. I guess the argument there is that those two don't have Dragon STAB, are weakened by Rain significantly, and have either negative stat drops or massive recoil. I'm one of the guys who actually uses Kyurem sometimes in the current OU and I can definitely see the new formes fitting into that niche (beating Waters, Electrics, Grasses) as well as having that huge potential as wallbreakers.

My guess is that they'll just settle down as mediocre Ubers. Of course that would all change if you take out the charge turn on their signatures...

Victini can reach that level only by using a single attack, and it's one with significant drawbacks. Fire isn't as good an attacking type as Dragon, and while it can be augmented with sun, keep in mind that rain is more common to start with. The same goes for Darmanitan, who has a weaker move to abuse and the added drawbacks of being frail.

Even normal Kyurem is quite bulky at 125/90/90. 95 Speed barely misses that 100 benchmark but is still quite useable, and neither Kyurem is forced to rely on one type of offense assuming that they have at least 110 in the other attacking stat. Their common weaknesses are the only thing holding them back but honestly, with several useful resistances, decent speed and bulk, and offensive stats poised to be in excess of 150, they need SOME defect.

 

[Charon]

Like I said in the other thread, the Kyurems are the same in the picture, meaning they have a Lax nature.

Hence

125 - 170/120 - 100/90 -120/170 - 90/100 - 95 - 700

The only other possibility is
125 - 165/115 - 100/90 -115/165 - 90/100 - 95 - 690

but since the first numbers are prettier Id say 700 TBS ftw.

 

[doughboy]

Alright so if this thing was allowed in OU, and I highly doubt it will be, it would be the most badass wallbreaker in the tier.

Let's take Black Kyurem and assume he has the attacking stats of 160 physical attack and 120 special attack. Now with a Life Orb equipped in a Naughty nature equipped let's see what we can do. Note I am not using any of there Electric moves since we don't know what they are going to get. I am just using the "givens" for moves. If we added stuff like wild charge into the mix (which zekrom gets) many of these calcs would be quite different (Heatran in paticular).

"Given" moves used: Outrage, Hidden Power Fire, and Ice Beam

Ice Beam no investment vs Physically Defensive Skarmory: (62%-73%) Guaranteed 2HKO.
Ice Beam no investment vs Specially Defensive Skarmory: (43%-50%) It has a 48% Chance to 2HKO after SR. But what is Skarm going to do back phaze? Can get killed by anything that comes in and will die to SR if it switches out.

Specially Defensive Heatran vs full investment Outrage
Outrage: 155-183 (40.25 - 47.53%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Outrage: 155-183 (40.25 - 47.53%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

Specially Defensive Jirachi vs Full Investment Outrage
Outrage: 163-192 (40.34 - 47.52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock.
Outrage: 163-192 (40.34 - 47.52%) -- 60.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

Standard Brongzong vs Full Investment Outrage
Outrage: 134-158 (39.64 - 46.74%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Now what about the things that aren't Steel types but can stand up to Outrages? The Big three being Hippowdon, Tangrowth, and Slowbro Hippo and Tangrowth are OHKO'ed by Ice Beam. What about Slowbro?

Defensive Slowbro vs Full investment Outrage: 220-261 (55.83 - 66.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
_____________________________

Specs White Kyurem (base 160 sp. atk max+ sp.atk)? Borked
Draco Meteor vs Specially Defensive Heatran: 173-204 (44.93 - 52.98%)

Draco Meteor vs Specially Defensive Ttar (Careful 252 Sp. Def EV's)
Draco Meteor: 316-373 (78.21 - 92.32%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
____________________________________________

Basically with SR and 1 layer of Spikes Black Kyurem can 2HKO the entire metagame. The crazy thing is that this is only with the given moves Outrage, Hidden Power, and Ice Beam. We don't know what other physical Electric moves Kyurem will even get. So yeah I think it is pretty safe to say the both Kyurems will be Uber. Please don't get started on quick bans I want to use them so badly :*******(

 

[Bossness]

Small nitpick: The higher attack stat of the Kyurem formes are at least 165 as a level 50 slaking's attack maxes at 180 with perfect IVs and neutral nature. So to the guy above try redoing your calculation ^_^. And the lower attack stat is probably lower than 120 - this is apparent when you compare them with reshiram and zekrom. Maybe 115?

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Black and White Kyurem's offensive stats are so overkill they can afford to run a bulky EV spread and still OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame. Normal Kyurem can still survive Conkeldurr's Mach Punch and OHKO in return, ditto with Scizor's Bullet Punch.

Ice as a defensive type might suck but on the pokemon with the right stats to abuse the STAB it provides it's scary, as Cloyster and Mamoswine have shown.

Even disregarding the ice STAB completely, have you guys forgot that Black and White Kyurem are going to yield the strongest Outrage and Draco Meteor in the game, respectively?

 

[Cooky]

Draco Meteor vs Specially Defensive Ttar (Careful 252 Sp. Def EV's)
Draco Meteor: 316-373 (78.21 - 92.32%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You forgot the sandstorm boost. 0% chance to OHKO after SR but who uses max SpD ttar anyway

 

[OVERGRO]

Now that I think about it, their wallbreaking capabilities and raw stats will make them quite monstrous.

IIRC, Choice Band Haxorus could 2HKO almost the entire metagame w/ Stealth Rock.

Black Kyurem is looking to have approximately 160 base attack, with the same STAB Outrage. Nothing is going to be able to switch into this monster if it gets a chance to enter unscathed, even with SR damage. If it manages to come in on a pokemon slower than it, the opponent is probably losing a pokemon for sure. Wasn't that one of the banning conditions or something?

White Kyurem with Specs doesn't even need explaining. Let's say Draco Meteor is more powerful than Outrage on the first hit. Not to mention Hail-Blizzard (which is unpopular, I know).

And now we look at the Scarf. With 95 speed it would outrun all the scarfed base 90s and a bunch of other stuff. Even with bade 90 and a scarf, that essentially gives it a new Base 135 speed with a 160 offensive stat.

We'll see... but this is looking to be a force in the metagame, especially early when they get released.

 

[R_N]

No, it's not the same thing. Did you forget the red/blue tubes on Kyurem's back. They're entirely different formes.

No, no they aren't. They aren't even forms.
The tubes are just how it goes into Overdrive, where as Zekrom & Reshiram just glow naturally.

Nothing has labeled them as formes or forms just "Oh now its glowing and means business!"

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

If they're not immediately banished to Ubers, I can see them taking over any niches that regular Kyurem has in OU, and most likely also affecting the usage of mons that are already in OU. For example, Black Kyurem would be a Choice Band user with an Outrage that hits even harder than Haxorus's, and White Kyurem... I think White Kyurem would probably have the biggest effect on Latios usage, as it would be more powerful than Latios and lack the Pursuit weakness, though Latios would still have Trick to give it a niche over White Kyurem. I can see both running Choice Scarf sets very effectively as well, just like how Kyurem already can.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Quite frankly, these things got fucking insane defenses. If not immediately banned, I might place one at my stall team for kicks, Im not sure what role exactly it will play, but with defenses like Tangrowth, I will find a place.

 

[SuperHydreigon1996]

If they add some sort of Icicle Crash tutor in Pokemon Black 2/White 2, and Kyurem can learn it, then Black Kyurem will have two STABs to take advantage of its high Attack alongside Electric Attacks. Outrage would be for Wallbreaking capabilities, while Icicle Crash would be for a reliable STAB with which to not get confused with. Just curious, how much would a Choice Banded Black Kyurem's Icicle Crash do to Skarmory if that was the case? (Let's assume Black Kyurem has Base 165 Attack. It's just to test the possibility of Icicle Crash being a tutor move for Black Kyurem)

 

[gamer40000]

If they add some sort of Icicle Crash tutor in Pokemon Black 2/White 2, and Kyurem can learn it, then Black Kyurem will have two STABs to take advantage of its high Attack alongside Electric Attacks. Outrage would be for Wallbreaking capabilities, while Icicle Crash would be for a reliable STAB with which to not get confused with. Just curious, how much would a Choice Banded Black Kyurem's Icicle Crash do to Skarmory if that was the case? (Let's assume Black Kyurem has Base 165 Attack. It's just to test the possibility of Icicle Crash being a tutor move for Black Kyurem)

Jolly Black Kyurem vs. Physically Defensive Skarmory: (43.11 - 50.89%) -- 58.59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Adamant Black Kyurem vs. Physically Defensive Skarmory: (47.3 - 55.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Jolly Black Kyurem vs. Specially Defensive Skarmory: (55.68 - 66.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Adamant Black Kyurem vs. Specially Defensive Skarmory:
(61.07 - 72.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[shrang]

If they add some sort of Icicle Crash tutor in Pokemon Black 2/White 2, and Kyurem can learn it, then Black Kyurem will have two STABs to take advantage of its high Attack alongside Electric Attacks. Outrage would be for Wallbreaking capabilities, while Icicle Crash would be for a reliable STAB with which to not get confused with. Just curious, how much would a Choice Banded Black Kyurem's Icicle Crash do to Skarmory if that was the case? (Let's assume Black Kyurem has Base 165 Attack. It's just to test the possibility of Icicle Crash being a tutor move for Black Kyurem)

706 Atk vs 411 Def & 334 HP (85 Base Power): 157 - 186 (47.01% - 55.69%) - Assuming Adamant Kyurem vs 252/232+ Skarmory.

Cherubi's calculator is your friend. Boo ninja'd

 

[Dr Ciel]

If they add some sort of Icicle Crash tutor in Pokemon Black 2/White 2, and Kyurem can learn it, then Black Kyurem will have two STABs to take advantage of its high Attack alongside Electric Attacks. Outrage would be for Wallbreaking capabilities, while Icicle Crash would be for a reliable STAB with which to not get confused with. Just curious, how much would a Choice Banded Black Kyurem's Icicle Crash do to Skarmory if that was the case? (Let's assume Black Kyurem has Base 165 Attack. It's just to test the possibility of Icicle Crash being a tutor move for Black Kyurem)

When and if this comes to PO, I'm outright quitting Pokemon.

 

[AllNet]

Will most likely still not be used enough for use in ubers.

Hold on, a Pokemon is banished to ubers because it brings inbalance to OU, does it have to have a high usage right as well?

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Will most likely still not be used enough for use in ubers.

Hold on, a Pokemon is banished to ubers because it brings inbalance to OU, does it have to have a high usage right as well?

No

 

[voodoo pimp]

All of the XU tiers are based on usage. Ubers and BL(2) are based on being broken in the tiers below them and usage is irrelevant.

 

[Jerp]

While they're attacking stats are high, I don't think they'll break the Uber metagame, assuming they go there. At only 95 speed, Palkia will rape both of them. Also, base 95 speed pokemon like Rayquaza are very powerful, but unfortunately not that common. All in all, I think they'll have an impact, but won't be OP by any means.

 

[Manaphy]

Lol, you're saying a Pokemon is going to have an impact and we don't know it's coverage moves or stats accurately yet. You're assuming it will have Fire and Electric coverage, which would mean that even IF they got Fire and Electric attacks, they'd be able to be used on the same forme. And then there's the fact that Ice/Dragon is absolutely a terrible combination, which grants it a Stealth Rock weakness, and redundant type coverage.

 

[Manaphy]

If you're using Specs, you could easily use Reshiram or Palkia for doing just about the same thing except with actually useful secondary STABs that get boosted by the weather, doing neat things like 2HKOing Chansey, and with Palkia you actually have more Speed too. Dialgas in the same boat but while he doesn't have a good secondary STAB, he actually has a good defensive typing to make up for it.

I think they'll make their niché with Scarf sets, Scarf Black Kyurem could easily take over Zekrom's role as a physical Scarfer, but again being Choiced means you switch out a lot, which means being Stealth Rock weak really does suck. I'm not really sure what White Kyurem would do, because I really do see it outclassed in roles as a Choice user.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

lol @ people saying it's broken before we even know its stats

thank god we got rid of suspect testing

 

[alexwolf]

lol @ people saying it's broken before we even know its stats

thank god we got rid of suspect testing

Well, to be honest, you can't blame them... If the Black and White Kyurem in the pics weren't evd, then we are looking at pokes with 165-170 attacking stats, Dragon STAB, amazing bulk and acceptable speed. And after all, this is pure speculation, where people tend to overeact anyway, so no reason to get upset about it...